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[Rebis]

In my own experience with TS support groups, most TS prior to transition DON''T crossdress, do they might have done so episodically in the past. That's my case and the case of all those I know in the few groups I've been in.
Cross dressing is of little help to a TS and in fact may even be more distressing considering how fake it seems.

Keira,  well said.

I am just mortified of looking or being perceived as fake.  One shop where I go has a mixture of TS and CD customers.  We actually talk about this.  Their way of seeing the dressing issue is so foreign to me, and mine to them.  One of my friends was getting a makeover the first time I met her. She still came out looking rather manly with a voice like a bullfrog.  She was very pleased. I would have given up.  But that's just the difference between us.  She wants to be feminine.  I want to be female.

I find the image of a grown man following his heart by dressing imperfectly as a woman and being happy about it to be kind of cute.

[louise000]

In my own experience with TS support groups, most TS prior to transition DON''T crossdress, do they might have done so episodically in the past. That's my case and the case of all those I know in the few groups I've been in.

Cross dressing is of little help to a TS and in fact may even be more distressing considering how fake it seems.

When I went for counselling about my gender identity problems my counsellor told me my history suggested I was positively transsexual. She was surprised that I wasn't in the habit of dressing even on an occasional basis. In fact I hadn't attempted to crossdress in any form for many years until very recently, when I decided I'd like to buy just a few tops and some womens jeans from the Additions website. Whilst online just like any woman I was tempted and succumbed to buying a cheap but tasteful black dress as well as some earrings and a necklace. Thank god for credit cards. Although I don't get any sexual kick out of dressing, just seeing the reflection of myself in them (after applying makeup of course) made me feel so good and I no longer worry so much about passing - I know that if called upon I could go out and feel confident about my appearance. Together with the work I've done to femininise my voice I could get by if I started transition. It was a great confidence booster for me, although I have so many other personal issues to resolve transition is still far off for me, even if it remains my goal.

[SarahFaceDoom]

In my own experience with TS support groups, most TS prior to transition DON''T crossdress, do they might have done so episodically in the past. That's my case and the case of all those I know in the few groups I've been in.
Cross dressing is of little help to a TS and in fact may even be more distressing considering how fake it seems.

Keira,  well said.

I am just mortified of looking or being perceived as fake.  One shop where I go has a mixture of TS and CD customers.  We actually talk about this.  Their way of seeing the dressing issue is so foreign to me, and mine to them.  One of my friends was getting a makeover the first time I met her. She still came out looking rather manly with a voice like a bullfrog.  She was very pleased. I would have given up.  But that's just the difference between us.  She wants to be feminine.  I want to be female.

I find the image of a grown man following his heart by dressing imperfectly as a woman and being happy about it to be kind of cute.

Me too.  Life's too short.  Be you.  Plus who doesn't think Eddie Izzard is sexy?

Posted on: September 01, 2007, 01:34:03 PM

In my own experience with TS support groups, most TS prior to transition DON''T crossdress, do they might have done so episodically in the past. That's my case and the case of all those I know in the few groups I've been in.

Cross dressing is of little help to a TS and in fact may even be more distressing considering how fake it seems.

I don't really understand what qualifies as crossdressing for a TS.  I dressed in women's clothes for most of my life growing up, but it was not in public.  To me it was just about being able to express my gender identity somewhere even if it was just my own home.  I don't really consider it crossdressing, but I don't know how else to explain it.  Like is presenting male before a mtf comes out, considered the crossdressing bit?

[Elizabeth]

In my own experience with TS support groups, most TS prior to transition DON''T crossdress, do they might have done so episodically in the past. That's my case and the case of all those I know in the few groups I've been in.

Cross dressing is of little help to a TS and in fact may even be more distressing considering how fake it seems.

Again, Dr. Harry Benjamin would not agree. This is more like "True Transsexual Legend". Many transsexuals have a desire to crossdress.

The transsexual (TS) male or female is deeply unhappy as a member of the sex (or gender) to which he or she was assigned by the anatomical structure of the body, particularly the genitals. To avoid misunderstanding: this has nothing to do with hermaphroditism. The transsexual is physically normal (although occasionally underdeveloped) [2]. These persons can somewhat appease their unhappiness by dressing in the clothes of the opposite sex, that is to say, by cross-dressing, and they are, therefore, transvestites too. But while "dressing" would satisfy the true transvestite (who is content with his morphological sex), it is only incidental and not more than a partial or temporary help to the transsexual. True transsexuals feel that they belong to the other sex, they want to be and function as members of the opposite sex, not only to appear as such. For them, their sex organs, the primary (testes) as well as the secondary (penis and others) are disgusting deformities that must be changed by the surgeon’s knife. This attitude appears to be the chief differential diagnostic point between the two syndromes (sets of symptoms) - that is, those of transvestism and transsexualism.

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02.htm

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Keira]

Elisabeth, I believe I've been in contact in therapeutic circles with much more TS than you and that's what they said. Unless your calling these 40-50 people liars, I stand by what I said. Reality from so many people's mouth sort of trumps what some guy said in the 60's (very different times).

As I said, a TS may crossdress, but its usually not frequent unless they soon transition (its a step to transition) because its of no use to relieve GID.

There are doubtless exceptions, but if something is of no use, of even painfull, you won't do it; seems logical. For cross dressers, there is some relief of whatever GID by dressing, for most TS the relief from GID is only temporary; after a certain amount of time, usually counted in weeks, only anxiety and depression remains.

[Nero]

Elisabeth, I believe I've been in contact in therapeutic circles with much more TS than you and that's what they said. Unless your calling these 40-50 people liars, I stand by what I said. Reality from so many people's mouth sort of trumps what some guy said in the 60's (very different times).

As I said, a TS may crossdress, but its usually not frequent unless they soon transition (its a step to transition) because its of no use to relieve GID.

There are doubtless exceptions, but if something is of no use, of even painfull, you won't do it; seems logical. For cross dressers, there is some relief of whatever GID by dressing, for most TS the relief from GID is only temporary; after a certain amount of time, usually counted in weeks, only anxiety and depression remains.

yeah. For someone with severe dysphoria, the stark constrast of looking male while wearing a dress would most likely be unbearable. Only serving to emphasize the problem.

[Kristi]

I find the image of a grown man following his heart by dressing imperfectly as a woman and being happy about it to be kind of cute.

Well in case I wasn't very clear, I did too.  I was just saying it wasn't for me.

Kristi

[Elizabeth]

Elisabeth, I believe I've been in contact in therapeutic circles with much more TS than you and that's what they said. Unless your calling these 40-50 people liars, I stand by what I said. Reality from so many people's mouth sort of trumps what some guy said in the 60's (very different times).

As I said, a TS may crossdress, but its usually not frequent unless they soon transition (its a step to transition) because its of no use to relieve GID.

There are doubtless exceptions, but if something is of no use, of even painfull, you won't do it; seems logical. For cross dressers, there is some relief of whatever GID by dressing, for most TS the relief from GID is only temporary; after a certain amount of time, usually counted in weeks, only anxiety and depression remains.

This is very funny, kinda like, "when did you stop beating your wife?". You are basically saying that unless I believe what you said, I am calling 30-40 people liars? I never called anyone a liar, you included. You have your experience and Dr. Benjamin has his. All I said was that Dr. Benjamin did not agree with you. But for the record, I don't agree with you either. There are transsexuals on this site both post and pre HRT that crossdress. There are also transsexuals on this site who are now post op and they used to crossdress. Anyone that has not had GRS and is wearing clothes of their target gender, is crossdressing.

So to summarize, I believe that many transsexuals crossdress, Dr. Benjamin beleives transsexuals crossdress, there are many transsexuals on this site who crossdress and finally, you don't know any transsexuals that crossdress. So it's ok if you stand by what you say, I never disputed what your experience is or the validity of the people you got your information from. Now? If you have some published, peer reviewed work for me to look at, that supports your point of view, that would be great, but your experience is different than mine.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Keira]

Since I disagree with even you assessment of people on this site, I think its pointless to argue about the rest.

As for crossdressing AFTER HRT!!!!! HUH!!!!
I don't know what your saying... After HRT your transitioning so how does that invalid what I'm saying...

Unless they're androgyne's or some kind of gender variant and thus what I'm saying doesn't apply to them anyway.

I'm talking of people with SEVERE GID here... Cross dressing for such is no relief unless its part of the process of transitioning.

[Kate]

As I said, a TS may crossdress, but its usually not frequent unless they soon transition (its a step to transition) because its of no use to relieve GID.

I crossdressed, but only for a few years in my thirties (nothing before that), and generally only around Halloween... as it was one day of the year where I could safely try and pass in public as a female. It made me *miserable* though, as I generally just looked like "a guy in a dress" to myself, and the few times I looked reasonably OK, it was heartbreaking to know it was just a costume, an illusion. It was either a confirmation of how trapped as a male I was, or a cruel tease of what could have been.. but never would be now.

It's rather naive of me, but until just now, it never really sank in that many people are probably perfectly content just wearing women's clothing for the sake of wearing it... without any real concern of whether they look female or not. If I didn't feel I looked female, I just felt foolish and heartbroken... and would put it away and cry.

~Kate~

[Elizabeth]

Since I disagree with even you assessment of people on this site, I think its pointless to argue about the rest.

As for crossdressing AFTER HRT!!!!! HUH!!!!
I don't know what your saying... After HRT your transitioning so how does that invalid what I'm saying...

Unless they're androgyne's or some kind of gender variant and thus what I'm saying doesn't apply to them anyway.

I'm talking of people with SEVERE GID here... Cross dressing for such is no relief unless its part of the process of transitioning.

Maybe I just don't understand? Are you saying that it's only crossdressing if one is not on HRT? Or are you saying there is no urge to dress like a woman until HRT?. Or are you saying that everyone on HRT is transsexual and therefore not crossdressers and therefore can not crossdress by wearing target gender clothing, even though the clothes are of the opposite sex of the body?

Because I have trouble with those kinds of arguments. Are we down to saying that the suffering of the transsexual is more than the suffering of the closeted crossdresser, so therefore the transsexuals deserve validation, but the crossdressers don't? Because their reason for crossdressing is not as good as our reason for crossdressing? To me this is real simple. If someone were born with a male body and they are wearing the clothing of a female, regardless of what their motivation is, they are crossdressed. Once transition is complete, one is no longer crossdressed because their body becomes female.

Trust me, you get arrested and have a penis, you will not be sent to a woman's prison and you will not be allowed to wear women's clothing and you will not be permitted to take hormones. The law makes no distinction with regard to the date at which someone is officially diagnosed as GID. It appears to me that drawing a line in the sand at the day someone is officially diagnosed with GID, doesn't really make any sense to me.

If crossdressing did not solve the problem before the diagnosis, it certainly won't solve it after the diagnosis. So I don't see dressing in women's clothing as being less crossdressing just because someone has transitioned their life. To me, anyone that still has a penis and wears women's clothing, is a crossdresser, except possibly those who are intersexed. But even if this were true somehow, weren't the transsexuals, still transsexuals before they were diagnosed? And if they were always transsexuals, why would dressing in women's clothing just prior to GRS, be any different than dressing any time before GRS?

I am trying to make this make sense somehow, but it just doesn't.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Nero]

Since I disagree with even you assessment of people on this site, I think its pointless to argue about the rest.

As for crossdressing AFTER HRT!!!!! HUH!!!!
I don't know what your saying... After HRT your transitioning so how does that invalid what I'm saying...

Unless they're androgyne's or some kind of gender variant and thus what I'm saying doesn't apply to them anyway.

I'm talking of people with SEVERE GID here... Cross dressing for such is no relief unless its part of the process of transitioning.

Maybe I just don't understand? Are you saying that it's only crossdressing if one is not on HRT? Or are you saying there is no urge to dress like a woman until HRT?. Or are you saying that everyone on HRT is transsexual and therefore not crossdressers and therefore can not crossdress by wearing target gender clothing, even though the clothes are of the opposite sex of the body?

Because I have trouble with those kinds of arguments. Are we down to saying that the suffering of the transsexual is more than the suffering of the closeted crossdresser, so therefore the transsexuals deserve validation, but the crossdressers don't? Because their reason for crossdressing is not as good as our reason for crossdressing? To me this is real simple. If someone were born with a male body and they are wearing the clothing of a female, regardless of what their motivation is, they are crossdressed. Once transition is complete, one is no longer crossdressed because their body becomes female.

Trust me, you get arrested and have a penis, you will not be sent to a woman's prison and you will not be allowed to wear women's clothing and you will not be permitted to take hormones. The law makes no distinction with regard to the date at which someone is officially diagnosed as GID. It appears to me that drawing a line in the sand at the day someone is officially diagnosed with GID, doesn't really make any sense to me.

If crossdressing did not solve the problem before the diagnosis, it certainly won't solve it after the diagnosis. So I don't see dressing in women's clothing as being less crossdressing just because someone has transitioned their life. To me, anyone that still has a penis and wears women's clothing, is a crossdresser, except possibly those who are intersexed. But even if this were true somehow, weren't the transsexuals, still transsexuals before they were diagnosed? And if they were always transsexuals, why would dressing in women's clothing just prior to GRS, be any different than dressing any time before GRS?

I am trying to make this make sense somehow, but it just doesn't.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Society may see a pre-op as crossdressing, but she is a woman, therefore she would only be crossdressing if wearing a suit and tie.

[tinkerbell]

Society may see a pre-op as crossdressing, but she is a woman, therefore she would only be crossdressing if wearing a suit and tie.

This is actually true, if you are wearing the attire of your "true gender", it isn't
cross-dressing at all, but I can certainly understand why some people can make that mistake.

tink

[Keira]

If your transitioning, taking hormones, having surgery, changing your ID, etc, your not crossdressing, unless your saying that all non-op TS are crossdressing.

Most TS only start dressing outside in more feminine way when HRT has really kicked in, which also makes quite a difference.

Also, if your dressed in the same way 24/7, when are you in fact cross-dressing?

Since for a TS this is life, and not a temporary thing, it has more consequence and meaning, which can bring relief.

I don't think you really understand where me and many with severe debilitating GID are coming from.

[tinkerbell]

If your transitioning, taking hormones, having surgery, changing your ID, etc, your not crossdressing, unless your saying that all non-op TS are crossdressing.

Most TS only start dressing outside in more feminine way when HRT has really kicked in, which also makes quite a difference.

Also, if your dressed in the same way 24/7, when are you in fact cross-dressing?

Since for a TS this is life, and not a temporary thing, it has more consequence and meaning, which can bring relief.

I don't think you really understand where me and many with severe debilitating GID are coming from.

Aha good points Keira.  Especially the higlighted ones!

tink

[Elizabeth]

If your transitioning, taking hormones, having surgery, changing your ID, etc, your not crossdressing, unless your saying that all non-op TS are crossdressing.

Most TS only start dressing outside in more feminine way when HRT has really kicked in, which also makes quite a difference.

Also, if your dressed in the same way 24/7, when are you in fact cross-dressing?

Since for a TS this is life, and not a temporary thing, it has more consequence and meaning, which can bring relief.

I don't think you really understand where me and many with severe debilitating GID are coming from.

I totally respect your opinion, I simply disagree with it. I also believe that crossdressers are demonized in the TG community. Those are my opinions. But opinions are just that, they are just opinions. I have never read or seen any published studies to support this theory that transsexuals don't crossdress. Or that somehow crossdressing is different if one is on HRT or not. And those who are past transition consider that the breaking point, and others coming out of the closet. It seems we all draw the line right exactly where we happen to be on the spectrum. We are valid, but no one else is. Sorry, I just can't buy into this. Outside of published, peer reviewed studies that confirm this theory that transsexuals don't crossdress, I am unlikey to believe anecdotal evidence. My experience tells me that it simply is not true.

Love always,
Elizabeth

 

[Nero]

Good morning Elizabeth,

I'm trying to understand what you're getting at. Are you saying that transsexuals and crossdressers are the same up until the transsexual has SRS?

[tinkerbell]

I would like to know what the objective of this thread is:  Is it to say that cross-dressers are the same as transsexuals?  is it to say that cross-dressers are oppressed by the TS community?  or is it to determine the difference between cross-dressers and transsexuals?

My answers to my own questions:

My answer to question number one:  NO
My answer to question number two:  I already answered.  They are misunderstood not demonized.  Problems arise when people try to imply that cross-dressers or transvestites are the same as transsexuals (pre, non, or post op)
My answer to question number three:  Yes, there is a huge difference.  IMO, and based on my experience with other TS's the difference is abysmal.

tink

[Elizabeth]

Good morning Elizabeth,

I'm trying to understand what you're getting at. Are you saying that transsexuals and crossdressers are the same up until the transsexual has SRS?

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that transsexuals crossdress right up to the time they have GRS and change their sex. When they legally become that sex. My feeling is that transsexuals were transsexuals all their lives. So if they were transsexuals all their life, it would be appropriate for them to be crossdressed all their life, not just after HRT. Because of this, I don't beleive that not crossdressing is symptomatic of transsexuality.

This arbitrary date makes no sense to me. One is only a legitimate transsexual if they never crossdressed before HRT? That is just silly to me. I know many transsexuals who crossdressed for many years before transition and GRS. Some of them members of this very forum. For that reason I don't buy into it. To me, it's more elitist dogma that can not be supported. It's legend and folklore. It's always what someone "heard" somewhere, but can't identify a legitimate source of the information, but they know it's true.

Like I said, I could easily be swayed with published peer reviewed studies showing this to be true, but I doubt I will see any thing like that.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Nero]

Good morning Elizabeth,

I'm trying to understand what you're getting at. Are you saying that transsexuals and crossdressers are the same up until the transsexual has SRS?

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that transsexuals crossdress right up to the time they have GRS and change their sex. When they legally become that sex. My feeling is that transsexuals were transsexuals all their lives. So if they were transsexuals all their life, it would be appropriate for them to be crossdressed all their life, not just after HRT. Because of this, I don't beleive that not crossdressing is symptomatic of transsexuality.

This arbitrary date makes no sense to me. One is only a legitimate transsexual if they never crossdressed before HRT? That is just silly to me. I know many transsexuals who crossdressed for many years before transition and GRS. Some of them members of this very forum. For that reason I don't buy into it. To me, it's more elitist dogma that can not be supported. It's legend and folklore. It's always what someone "heard" somewhere, but can't identify a legitimate source of the information, but they know it's true.

Like I said, I could easily be swayed with published peer reviewed studies showing this to be true, but I doubt I will see any thing like that.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Gotcha. While I don't like hearing it referred to as 'crossdressing', I agree dressing as a woman before transition has nothing to do with being transsexual or not. Though I do imagine some didn't because it would be analogous to pouring salt in an open wound.