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[Rebis]

Yeah, what Zoe said.

[tinkerbell]

My opinion?

"Demonized" is a very strong adjective.  Misunderstood is probably a better term.  While I agree that some (not all) cross-dressers may suffer from some form of gender dysphoria, it is also true that some CD's are transvestic fetishists.  BTW gender identity pertains to one's core identity as being male, female, or other.  Transsexualism is a severe form of gender identity disorder; hence IMO a crossdresser is neither transsexual nor can become one.  I don't support any notion that implies otherwise.

True, some transsexuals may experience some cross-dressing behavior prior to coming out, but their motivations are gender related;  there's also a group of people referred to as transgenderists who may cross-dress to fullfill a gender identity gap, but they are not what is commonly known as transvestites or cross-dressers.

Transvestites wish they were women.

Most reasons for crossdressing do not involve transsexual desires, i.e., a wish to physically change sex. Although crossdressers uniformly enjoy wearing women's clothes, the majority seldom want to live their lives as women, nor do they want to become women. They simply want to be like women. A very few transvestites have chosen to crossdress all of the time and live totally as women, i.e., a transgenderist. But even these men have no desire to have sex reassignment surgery. It is true that prior to having such surgery, a transsexual must crossdress and live as a woman for a year or more. During this time they often receive female hormones and their secondary sex characteristics will become markedly feminine. These people are known as preoperative transsexuals, and should not be confused with transvestites or transgenderists.

Most transvestites, as opposed to transsexuals, enjoy being men. As spouses, they are content being husbands rather than wives. As parents, they are happy with the role of father and do not wish to become mothers. While they refer to other crossdressers as "sisters," this is an acknowledgment of the special bond which they share. Additionally, the preference expressed by many crossdressers for being referred to with female pronouns and for using feminine names is related to their appearance rather than to their basic gender identity.

Quote extracted from this link:

http://www.bigeye.com/sexeducation/transvestites.html


tink

[Karen]

I like to ask the question, "Where is she (or he) on the TG spectrum?)  I like to know what makes each individual distinct, but those distinctions for me don't make a difference.

I've said it before -- I don't like this hierarchy thing I see -- postie with FFS beats a postie without beats a pre-op fulltime RLE beats a weekday boymode on 'mones beats an out-of-the-closet weekend warrior beats a closeted, etc.

Everyone is at their optimum place at that given time. 

I'm thinking that those who are more deeply into TG (i.e., RLE, post-op,) may, if they're still insecure about themselves, feel threatened by someone who is happily CD and still has some virilization noticeable in their presentation or behaviour. 

My two cents...

Karen

[Jeannette]

I like to ask the question, "Where is she (or he) on the TG spectrum?)

At the extreme of the spectrum

  I like to know what makes each individual distinct,

Experiences

but those distinctions for me don't make a difference.

They do for me.  We've got different opinions.

I've said it before -- I don't like this hierarchy thing I see

Employing definitions to define peeps is not hierarchy.  Pity that some view it that way.

 

Everyone is at their optimum place at that given time.

Are you saying that transvestites are at their optimum place to "become" trans? 
Lol   I disagree Karen.  My apologies.  Tv's are Tv's, trans are trans.

I'm thinking that those who are more deeply into TG (i.e., RLE, post-op,) may, if they're still insecure about themselves, feel threatened by someone who is happily CD and still has some virilization noticeable in their presentation or behaviour. 

My two cents...

Karen

Or it could be that we dont want to be called something we are not.  Why does everything has got to do with "hierarchy and insecurity"?    Everytime peeps disagree with others, their disagreement is seen as "hierarchy".  It's ludicrous and immature to think that way.   Mon Dieu!

[Blanche]

I like to ask the question, "Where is she (or he) on the TG spectrum?)

At the extreme of the spectrum

  I like to know what makes each individual distinct,

Experiences

but those distinctions for me don't make a difference.

They do for me.  We've got different opinions.

I've said it before -- I don't like this hierarchy thing I see

Employing definitions to define peeps is not hierarchy.  Pity that some view it that way.

 

Everyone is at their optimum place at that given time.

Are you saying that transvestites are at their optimum place to "become" trans? 
Lol   I disagree Karen.  My apologies.  Tv's are Tv's, trans are trans.

I'm thinking that those who are more deeply into TG (i.e., RLE, post-op,) may, if they're still insecure about themselves, feel threatened by someone who is happily CD and still has some virilization noticeable in their presentation or behaviour. 

My two cents...

Karen

Or it could be that we dont want to be called something we are not.  Why does everything has got to do with "hierarchy and insecurity"?    Everytime peeps disagree with others, their disagreement is seen as "hierarchy".  It's ludicrous and immature to think that way.   Mon Dieu!

I second to what Jeannette has said.  I find it amusing that someone gets offended when one says transvestite.  Why?  if one is a transvestite, more power to them, one should be proud of who one is. I dont want to be called a transvestite because I am not one.  It isnt hierarchy.  It is just what I am not.  So now, only because I don't call transvestites transsexuals, I am discriminating against transvestites?  Like my American friends say, give me a break, will you?

[Elizabeth]

I believe there is a definite condescending attitude towards crossdressers within the Transsexual community. There is a huge difference between saying " I don't want to be called one because that is not what I am" and not wanting to be called a crossdresser because you don't want to be viewed as someone with a sexual compulsion to dress as a female. It's not a big secret that in the nontransgendered world, those who are satisfied with their gender, are more accepting of those "born in the wrong body" as opposed to those who dress like a girl and then masturbate and get undressed. This is considered "kinky" type sexual behavior and is frowned upon publically, even though many people privately engage in quite a bit of "kink".

If we are talking about what is and is not acceptable social behavior, removing one's genitals is pretty socially unacceptable to most people. Many people just think us insane. Just like people who want limbs removed for reasons they can't explain but can not be happy until the offending part is removed. To most people sex change = insane.

But? If one can pass flawlessly and never tell anyone about who they are, they can live without being stigmatized. So? If you only live as a woman a few days a month or even a few days a year for many crossdressers, it's not huge is someone thinks you are a sexual fetishist. They are prolly strangers and in a place not likely to identify you personally. But if you are a transsexual, you are out all the time with people who know you intimately. Many of them don't want to be associated with a "sexual pervert", so if you don't pass, making friends may not be too easy.

But many crossdressers and others who don't pass very well seem to make straight friends all the time. Many with quite conservative views. How can this be? It's because many people realize that the rules that society imposes is an insanely ridiculous standard that no one could ever hope to meet, and they don't want to try.

And that's where I am at. I mean I would love to be passable all the time, but I am not. That means I have to make friends with people who don't care about the unwritten rules of society either. So? I live by the written rules and fortunately for me, I live in a state that has pretty good written rules to protect my rights as a human being. So as long as I follow the rules, I have just as much right to be here as anyone else, no matter how I am dressed.

I see crossdressers no differently. Why they do what they do is of little concern to me and if someone confuses me with a crossdresser, that is ok too, because I used to make that same mistake when I thought the two words were interchangeable. No one needs to know my motivations, it should be enough that I want to. It should be of no one's concern but my own. So that is how I live my life.

But really, let's not pretend like there is not a hierarchy and condescension all the way down that hierarchy. We have all seen it and I am quite sure I could do a few searches and come up with plenty of threads to support that claim.

And you know what? Even though no one wants to talk about it, we all know why it happens.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Yvonne]

All of you know I'm blunt & never adorn my words.  I'm going to say one thing.  A transsexual isn't a crossdresser or a transvestite.  I also have the right to distance myself from peeps that aren't like me and don't share any common ground.  Hierarchy?  so be it.!  Dunno what else to say.

[Leslie]

A transsexual isn't a crossdresser or a transvestite.  I also have the right to distance myself from peeps that aren't like me and don't share any common ground.  Hierarchy?  so be it.!  Dunno what else to say.

It may sound very straightforward but I agree with Yvonne. We're all different peeps and associate with those that best fit our interests and goals.  It's a fact of life.  We assimilate much better with peeps that we identify with.

[Elizabeth]

All of you know I'm blunt & never adorn my words.  I'm going to say one thing.  A transsexual isn't a crossdresser or a transvestite.  I also have the right to distance myself from peeps that aren't like me and don't share any common ground.  Hierarchy?  so be it.!  Dunno what else to say.

Harry Benjamin does not agree.

The relationship between transvestism (TVism) and transsexualism (TSism) deserves further scrutiny and reflection. Both can be considered symptoms or syndromes of the same underlying psychopathological condition, that of a sex or gender role disorientation and indecision. Transvestism is the minor though the more frequent, transsexualism the much more serious although rarer disorder.

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02.htm

I think all in all, I'll take Harry Benjamin's opinion, since he was one of the first to study and treat transsexuals. I think if one thing should be clear to everyone, it's that there is something underlying all of this that makes anyone dissatisfied with their gender, that is common to all of us. The fact that this relationship can not be quantified, does not mean it does not exist.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Kristi]

We're all different peeps and associate with those that best fit our interests and goals.  It's a fact of life.  We assimilate much better with peeps that we identify with.

I think there's a lot of truth in that statement.  And I think that for many of us that is all that is going on.  We recognize and respect the differences in each other.  But not for everyone.  For some, especially us MTFs, there is a true pecking order with the "non-peckers" at the top.  (Sorry about the terrible pun.)

Kristi

[Yvonne]

Enlightening link Elizabeth.

The majority of transvestites are overtly heterosexual, but many may be latent bisexuals. They "feel" as men and know that they are men, marry, and often raise families. A few of them, however, especially when they are "dressed," can as part of their female role react homosexually to the attentions of an unsuspecting normal man. The transvestite’s marriage is frequently endangered as only relatively few wives can tolerate seeing their husbands in female attire

The transsexual (TS) male or female is deeply unhappy as a member of the sex (or gender) to which he or she was assigned by the anatomical structure of the body, particularly the genitals. To avoid misunderstanding: this has nothing to do with hermaphroditism. The transsexual is physically normal (although occasionally underdeveloped) [2]. These persons can somewhat appease their unhappiness by dressing in the clothes of the opposite sex, that is to say, by cross-dressing, and they are, therefore, transvestites too. But while "dressing" would satisfy the true transvestite (who is content with his morphological sex), it is only incidental and not more than a partial or temporary help to the transsexual. True transsexuals feel that they belong to the other sex, they want to be and function as members of the opposite sex, not only to appear as such. For them, their sex organs, the primary (testes) as well as the secondary (penis and others) are disgusting deformities that must be changed by the surgeon’s knife. This attitude appears to be the chief differential diagnostic point between the two syndromes (sets of symptoms) - that is, those of transvestism and transsexualism

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02.htm


The thing is that if you want to be called a transvestite, so be it.  I'm a woman, but if you wanna label me as something else rather than woman, I'd take the term transsexual.  Thank you kindly.

[Elizabeth]

Enlightening link Elizabeth.

The majority of transvestites are overtly heterosexual, but many may be latent bisexuals. They "feel" as men and know that they are men, marry, and often raise families. A few of them, however, especially when they are "dressed," can as part of their female role react homosexually to the attentions of an unsuspecting normal man. The transvestite’s marriage is frequently endangered as only relatively few wives can tolerate seeing their husbands in female attire

The transsexual (TS) male or female is deeply unhappy as a member of the sex (or gender) to which he or she was assigned by the anatomical structure of the body, particularly the genitals. To avoid misunderstanding: this has nothing to do with hermaphroditism. The transsexual is physically normal (although occasionally underdeveloped) [2]. These persons can somewhat appease their unhappiness by dressing in the clothes of the opposite sex, that is to say, by cross-dressing, and they are, therefore, transvestites too. But while "dressing" would satisfy the true transvestite (who is content with his morphological sex), it is only incidental and not more than a partial or temporary help to the transsexual. True transsexuals feel that they belong to the other sex, they want to be and function as members of the opposite sex, not only to appear as such. For them, their sex organs, the primary (testes) as well as the secondary (penis and others) are disgusting deformities that must be changed by the surgeon’s knife. This attitude appears to be the chief differential diagnostic point between the two syndromes (sets of symptoms) - that is, those of transvestism and transsexualism

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02.htm


The thing is that if you want to be called a transvestite, so be it.  I'm a woman, but if you wanna label me as something else rather than woman, I'd take the term transsexual.  Thank you kindly.

Why would you think I want to be called a transvestite? All I was saying is that I am not offended by it. I see how people make this mistake. Obviously there is a difference between transvestites and transsexuals or we would not have different names for them. Having said that, there are also similarities. I am not suggesting you are a transvestite, just that whatever you are, it has something in common with transvestites.

You know it's kinda like creationists who say "I didn't come from monkeys". Well, evolution doesn't say that humans come from monkeys. It says that humans and monkeys have a common ancestor. There is no missing link. This is kinda the same thing. Transsexuals and transvestites are not the same thing, but they have something that underlies this feeling of being the wrong gender that we all share. Some only feel it once in a while, others are overwhelmed by it.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Nero]

All of you know I'm blunt & never adorn my words.  I'm going to say one thing.  A transsexual isn't a crossdresser or a transvestite.  I also have the right to distance myself from peeps that aren't like me and don't share any common ground.  Hierarchy?  so be it.!  Dunno what else to say.

Harry Benjamin does not agree.

The relationship between transvestism (TVism) and transsexualism (TSism) deserves further scrutiny and reflection. Both can be considered symptoms or syndromes of the same underlying psychopathological condition, that of a sex or gender role disorientation and indecision. Transvestism is the minor though the more frequent, transsexualism the much more serious although rarer disorder.

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02.htm

I think all in all, I'll take Harry Benjamin's opinion, since he was one of the first to study and treat transsexuals. I think if one thing should be clear to everyone, it's that there is something underlying all of this that makes anyone dissatisfied with their gender, that is common to all of us. The fact that this relationship can not be quantified, does not mean it does not exist.

Love always,
Elizabeth

I must respectfully disagree, Elizabeth.
While some transvestites may have transgender feelings, transvestism is first and foremost a paraphilia.
Transvestism is just a step above fetishism - just a step above and beyond a man who wacks off whilst sniffing women's panties. The transvestite goes further by needing the panties on his own hindy to get off.
Transvestism is a medically recognized paraphilia.

Transvestism vs Transsexualism
Paraphilia vs Identity

I can understand why a woman would not wish to be associated with a man who wears panties to sate his sexual appetite.

[Louise]

I must respectfully disagree, Elizabeth.
While some transvestites may have transgender feelings, transvestism is first and foremost a paraphilia.
Transvestism is just a step above fetishism - just a step above and beyond a man who wacks off whilst sniffing women's panties. The transvestite goes further by needing the panties on his own hindy to get off.
Transvestism is a medically recognized paraphilia.

Transvestism vs Transsexualism
Paraphilia vs Identity

I can understand why a woman would not wish to be associated with a man who wears panties to sate his sexual appetite.

This is precisely why many crossdressers who crossdress because of feelings of gender dysphoria do not want to be referred to as transvestites.  The transgender world is not neatly divided into paraphiliac transvestites on one side and transsexuals on the other.  There are lots of us who are neither.

[Nero]

I must respectfully disagree, Elizabeth.
While some transvestites may have transgender feelings, transvestism is first and foremost a paraphilia.
Transvestism is just a step above fetishism - just a step above and beyond a man who wacks off whilst sniffing women's panties. The transvestite goes further by needing the panties on his own hindy to get off.
Transvestism is a medically recognized paraphilia.

Transvestism vs Transsexualism
Paraphilia vs Identity

I can understand why a woman would not wish to be associated with a man who wears panties to sate his sexual appetite.

This is precisely why many crossdressers who crossdress because of feelings of gender dysphoria do not want to be referred to as transvestites.  The transgender world is not neatly divided into paraphiliac transvestites on one side and transsexuals on the other.  There are lots of us who are neither.

True. I can see why a crossdresser with transgender feelings would not wish to be associated with paraphiliacs.

[Elizabeth]

I must respectfully disagree, Elizabeth.
While some transvestites may have transgender feelings, transvestism is first and foremost a paraphilia.
Transvestism is just a step above fetishism - just a step above and beyond a man who wacks off whilst sniffing women's panties. The transvestite goes further by needing the panties on his own hindy to get off.
Transvestism is a medically recognized paraphilia.

Transvestism vs Transsexualism
Paraphilia vs Identity

I can understand why a woman would not wish to be associated with a man who wears panties to sate his sexual appetite.

This is precisely why many crossdressers who crossdress because of feelings of gender dysphoria do not want to be referred to as transvestites.  The transgender world is not neatly divided into paraphiliac transvestites on one side and transsexuals on the other.  There are lots of us who are neither.

It turns out that paraphillia's are not mental disorders and probably will not appear in the DSM-V. Right now in order to be diagnosed with a paraphillia one must not only have the behavior, but it must cause significant distress. Furthermore, this distress can not caused by either public or private scorn for the behavior. It must cause you distress personally. As it turns out, this almost never happens. People who exhibit paraphillic behavior rarely want to quit their behavior. It turns out that paraphillic behavior is more of a variance of human behavior than it is a disorder. Paraphillias are more of a social construct or taboo's than anything else.

Also, there are plenty of people who crossdress that are not doing it to fulfill a sexual need. Granted there are those crossdressers who do, but there are also many transsexuals that exhibit transvestic behavior. All I am saying is that this line is not clear and clean. Many transsexuals report having crossdressed and having high sex drives prior to HRT and GRS. There is no rule that covers everyone. If you read the article I referenced above, Dr Benjamin explains it.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Amanda Barber]

It a circle really. So many crossdressers (esspesially insecure hetrosexual crossdressers) spend so much effort seperating themselves from the TG community that many in the TG community and support system have gotten tired of holding out the olive branch and just given up. Many have taken a "fine, go it on your own" attitude.

Its really sad but often there is a breaking point. 

[Keira]

In my own experience with TS support groups, most TS prior to transition DON''T crossdress, do they might have done so episodically in the past. That's my case and the case of all those I know in the few groups I've been in.

Cross dressing is of little help to a TS and in fact may even be more distressing considering how fake it seems.

[tinkerbell]

In my own experience with TS support groups, most TS prior to transition DON''T crossdress, do they might have done so episodically in the past. That's my case and the case of all those I know in the few groups I've been in.

Cross dressing is of little help to a TS and in fact may even be more distressing considering how fake it seems.

Seconded!

tink

[Kristi]

In my own experience with TS support groups, most TS prior to transition DON''T crossdress, do they might have done so episodically in the past. That's my case and the case of all those I know in the few groups I've been in.
Cross dressing is of little help to a TS and in fact may even be more distressing considering how fake it seems.

Keira,  well said.

I am just mortified of looking or being perceived as fake.  One shop where I go has a mixture of TS and CD customers.  We actually talk about this.  Their way of seeing the dressing issue is so foreign to me, and mine to them.  One of my friends was getting a makeover the first time I met her.  She still came out looking rather manly with a voice like a bullfrog.  She was very pleased.  I would have given up.  But that's just the difference between us.  She wants to be feminine.  I want to be female.