Just came out to my wife this past Monday, in the context of a couple's therapy session. We had been in therapy for about a year, going around in circles... the more i did to improve things, the angrier she would get with me, until she pushed me over the edge and then we fought.
This week her disrespect, contempt and scorn is coming out... according to the literature on the Beaumont Society, it's supposed to be a phase.
The good news is that, because i recently realised who I am (female) and where i am going, i've been able to keep my cool and quiet my own anger, in a way that i rarely was able to do as an actress forced into a 24/7 male role.
That doesn't make it any easier. She makes me cry and seems to get satisfaction from it. She is also convinced that i have done something really bad, something comparable to having an affair or massive lying. Rather than be defencive, i do my best to be understanding... which only seems to make her meaner. She talks to me with contempt in her voice, pretending that i deserve no better.
Yesterday she wanted sex, and after she was satisfied, asked 'so when are you gonna cut it off'? (No consideration as to my own satisfaction...) and when i started to tell her that it was an important decision that i had hoped to discuss and decide together... she just interrupted and changed the subject.
(Sex with her has always revolved around her, she has never paid attention to the naked male body in bed with her... though now claims that she's not a lesbian and needs a strong man next to her in life. I would like to say, that i'm stronger now than i've ever been. But anything i say is fuel for a fight, so now i say as little as possible and have a private cry. Makes no sense. Thoughts?)
Sorry for the rant. If she were a GF or this were a childless marriage, i'd cut & run. Our daughter is away and married, but our younger child is eleven. So i think about him... and fear of divorce, its costs both financial and emotional... as well as transitioning without a supportive partner. Speaking of strong, anything a man can do, most women can do better. I have risen from a poor city kid to a senior consultant in a global company with good job security. Put her child from her previous marriage through college when her MALE ex-husband hadn't even paid the child support. Is it clear, how i feel? Wants a strong man, hmmmph. Does she even know what she wants?
Just how much nastiness can we take? Has anybody else been in the same position?
She has not taken advantages of any of the SO links or support groups that I have given her.
Please advise... the benefit of your greater experience and wisdom please !
Thanks,
Karla
I'm sorry, but isn't this person meant to love you?
I would have walked a long time ago and maybe you're better off without her.
Life's too short to have people in your life who are meant to love you and then treat you like that.
And as I told my best friend when she was worried about her sister breaking up with her husband, "its normal these days"
I cant speak on the subject of marriage and children because I could never play guy good enough to get to that point.
From her perspective you have been dishonest and bringing out this huge secret and expecting her to be accepting is a long shot. To be brutally honest with you, despite your good intentions, you may be fighting a losing battle. Generally speaking a happy marriage may be able to cope but in your case it sounds like you were already on a very bumpy road.
In my opinion you need to make a big girl decision and decide whether transition is worth your marriage and the livelihood of your child.
Quote from: karla.allen on April 12, 2013, 06:11:44 AM
Please advise... the benefit of your greater experience and wisdom please !
Karla, take my advice with a grain of salt. I don't know you or your wife, so I can only speak based on what you said in a few paragraphs.
It sounds like you're not what your wife wants and you never will be. She wants a strong man. You're not a man at all.
Please don't worry about how divorce will affect your child. Children are very perceptive. It will be just as bad for your son to be raised in a marriage characterized by disappointment and recriminations.
I've been in a similar situation (though my wife has been a tad bit more understanding and respectful of my feelings than yours has). We're getting a divorce now, and I'm 100% convinced it's the best thing for all of us.
Please keep posting Karla. We're here if you need us.
Quote from: suzifrommd on April 12, 2013, 07:36:20 AM
Children are very perceptive. It will be just as bad for your son to be raised in a marriage characterized by disappointment and recriminations.
Speaking as someone who was raised by parents who "stayed together for the kids," I entirely agree. It was a huge relief when they finally broke up. I want to start a "divorce for the kids" movement to combat the insanity of believing that a toxic, unloving relationship is somehow a good space to raise children.
Thanks for your replies, and for the quickness of your replies. It means so much to me, just to know that all of you are there.
Yes, you are all wise about the toxic relationship being much worse than breaking up.
OK, you've only heard my side of the story, so take this with a grain of salt... but...
I have been stronger than any man she's ever been with. I'm uncomfortable tooting my own horn, but this is objective fact. She'll never acknowledge it... she has a history of useless lazy men.
On one hand, as MaidofOrleans says, From her perspective you have been dishonest and bringing out this huge secret and expecting her to be accepting is a long shot. On the other hand, i feel that in marriage one should do one's best, and not simply unload bile on a partner. I understand how hard this could be for anyone.
I do not, however, expect to be disrespected for being understanding. For all i know, she sees TG/TS-ism not as a condition in which one is born into the wrong body, but a weird perverted sexual fling of a middle-aged man in a mid-life crisis. (it might be, i might question myself, if i didn't have the memories and dreams of a girl from as long as i can remember, about six.)
In retrospect, i feel that she never accepted me as a man, though. She has no instinct or desire to take care of a man, do all the little things that women often do when a man cares for her, protects her, and works hard. Never did, from day one.
It's my fault for not seeing this, but getting involved with her anyway. Perhaps i don't know what to expect from relationships. Perhaps after my mother's sudden withdrawal of support and turning on me when i started to transition right out of college, AND my gf's withdrawal of support, i fell into abusive relationships. Always feeling that a problem with the relationship was a problem with me.
Darned difficult getting out of those relationships. I volunteered in a womens shelter once, and noted that women often returned to their abusers.
Again, thanks for all of your warm support, experience and ideas !
Hugs,
Karla
I was going to post a very long discussion about this, but then I read what Suzi posted. She said it much more simply and precisely, so it makes my job easy. I've been there, and I'm still going through a wringer every few weeks.
Your situation is different with a younger child, and it makes it harder on everyone. But it won't get better by waiting to talk about a lot of unpleasant things, especially if your wife is unwilling to accept that you have to change. In your wife's eyes you lied, deceived her, and cheated her out of "her" future. Yes, it is all about her, and she wants you to know that it's all your fault.
JoAnn and I finally had an open discussion of our future without regard to staying together. And that ended a lot of the anger. From that point on we've been much more civil, and we talk a lot more freely. We both know we'll end this marriage some day, and we're o.k. with it now. But JoAnn still gives me a deliberate pointed jab every now and then just to hurt me. ???
So please take care, and understand that you need to protect yourself from some of the terrible things that can happen in divorces. As it was put to me by several girls here on Susan's, "Plan for the worst, and be ready for it." The worst may not happen, but if it does you need to survive.
Hugs, Kathy
Karla, I totally relate ... I told my wife about my gender identity issues a long time ago and one time she just didn't want to hear it, then another time she was very sweet ... but then went into some kind of denial mode as if none of it had ever happened, which I could hardly blame her for because I was still in that crazy place of thinking that maybe there was something or someone that could 'cure' me. Then six months ago I basically said, 'Look I really need to at least start the process of transition. Because I can stand starting and then discovering that it doesn't work, or it's not the right thing for me. But I've got to the point where I simply can't bear the wondering and the not knowing, and the thought that I might go to my grave without ever having given myself the chance to be the person i should have been all along."
And she freaked. It was kind of a slow-motion freak-out that took place over weeks, maybe a couple of months as we tried to work things out and (on my wife's insistence) went to a really well-respected gender/relationship therapist together ... And gradually the whole thing became much, much more real to both of us. And the more that it did, the angrier and more bitterly hurt she became. And here's the thing: I don't blame her.
She's a heterosexual woman, with no doubts at all about her own gender or sexuality, who married me to be her husband and the father to our children. She still loves that man and wants to have sex with him, and she's deeply, deeply hurt that he can even consider giving it all up to become, in her eyes, some kind of fake impersonation of a woman.
Frankly, that's how the vast majority of women would - and for all I know do - respond. I think she's entitled to her anger and I respect it.
She also made it quite clear that she was not remotely interested in staying married if I transitioned. And, if I'm being totally honest, I'm not sure I do, either. Not because i don't love her, or love her companionship. Just that she doesn't want to go to bed with another woman ... and I don't think I'd want that, either.
So it's quite clear, not as a threat or emotional blackmail, just a fact of life that if I transition, we divorce.
And that brings me on to the kids. I have three: two daughters in their twenties and a teenage son. I love them all very much. I know that if I were to transition it would hurt them very badly at first. I'm not sure how angry they would be, or whether they'd reject me - at first, perhaps, but later, who knows? But I do know it would make my son's life MUCH harder at school.
Plus, he'd lose the house he's lived in all his life, because we'd have to sell it. And my daughters would lose any chance of a deposit for their first homes, because what with buying two new homes and a transition, there'd be nothing left in the kitty.
So I'd be hurting them ... And I'd be hurting me, too, because I've come very close to losing my family once before and it devastated me.
So the question is really a risk/reward issue. Do the possible benefits of transition outweigh the known and unknown costs, both for me and the people I love, and for whom I feel responsible?
Right now - partly because of a very serious illness in the family - I've put my transition on hold. (Again!) And it's not the worst thing, because in my head I'm completely settled with being transgender, accepting of it and at ease about it for really the first time in my life.
Now, I can't tell you what to do, Karla. But what I can say is that I think you have to allow your wife her anger, even if there are times (boy, are there times!) when it seems unreasonable, vindictive, phobic and generally incredibly hurtful and pissing-off to you too. This is about the toughest thing any wife can hear from her husband. She'll feel unfeminine, humiliated, embarrassed, ashamed, terrified about what people will say ... and even if these feelings aren't all reasonable, they're still completely understandable. We have the right to expect our feelings to be respected. But we don't have the right to expect our partners just to accept something as huge and traumatic as this and act like our happiness is the only thing that matters. They have a huge amount at stake in it too.
As for your son, well, you know him and love him and it's not for me or anyone else to say what you should do. One thing I would say, in general, is it seems to me to be better to transition as early as possible in a child's life. By the time they hit puberty and are developing their own sexual identity, I think it must get a lot more tricky. I'm certainly very conscious of that in my son's case.
In the end, you must choose your own path through all this. I wish you all the very best luck in the world. And, like all the other girls here have said, I'm here for you, any time.
Wow Carlita. To you I offer every emotion I can give with a hug and sigh.
I lived more than 20 years with JoAnn after coming out to her the first time. It was terribly difficult and everything you said about how a wife reacts is so incredibly true. I lost everything that was tender and intimate in my marriage that day, but we stayed together and raised our two sons. We learned to live together over the years, and so it hurt JoAnn just as much last summer when I told her I had to move on. The loss, hatred, fear, discust, and loneliness was all back and it was just as bad as it was all those years ago. But this time she added "You did it to me again. And I hate you for it."
Yes Carlita, I made similar choices, and I'm so glad I did. But I also knew there'd be something more I'd be dealing with some day. Luckily that day has come and gone, we dealt with the added problem, and we are getting on with things. Times are not easy, and there's real unhappiness in the house, but in time we will finally go our own ways.
Karla, you have a lot to deal with from now on. And it sounds like you know what you're in for.
Kathy
Quote from: MaidofOrleans on April 12, 2013, 06:29:33 AM
I cant speak on the subject of marriage and children because I could never play guy good enough to get to that point.
From her perspective you have been dishonest and bringing out this huge secret and expecting her to be accepting is a long shot. To be brutally honest with you, despite your good intentions, you may be fighting a losing battle. Generally speaking a happy marriage may be able to cope but in your case it sounds like you were already on a very bumpy road.
In my opinion you need to make a big girl decision and decide whether transition is worth your marriage and the livelihood of your child.
[/b]
No, the question is whether she wants her child to witness obvious ABUSE, and also to see that she would rather be knuckled into submission, rather than leaving WITH the child, and protecting him, like a good mom--or dad--would do.
There is NO excuse for abuse. She's selfish, and wants a doormat, not a partner.
I have seen many different outcomes and have known many different types of people and i can say honestly that its one thing to disagree with a transition but another to disrespect a human being during sex,Who mind you-has not had SRS and is still the person they claimed to have *fallen in love with*.I wish to point this out before i go into more though.I was with a woman years ago and we had some pretty bad issues,one of them being lying.She finally told the truth but later down the line we realized *us* being together was wrong.But never once did i stop loving her or stop sleeping in the same bed.we had other things in mind and knew what we needed and sex was not one of them.If anyone makes you believe that you can not be with someone you *love* without thinking only about sex,then they are using you.She went back home because her mother had cancer which i completely understood.In a nut shell,we were happy with the human being and not the body parts they carried.That aside,to the OP.As i stated above,i have seen ALOT of different people and even dealt with some of the exact same things you do.Most not related to transition and some are.But either way,the reason for it is normaly the same.Allow me to throw some of these out to you.Judging from the things i have seen that you posted,this is the assumtion i got.You said that sex has always been about her? i know this feeling well and this is purely a selfish action from a selfish person.A selfless person will always put the needs of others first.More so when it comes to *making love*.I currently live with someone who also seems to hold the same contempt and though i know its hard,you come to the point that you have NO choice but to end it.Regardless of what one *feels* they suffer,like being lied to,cheated on and so on,it takes a cruel human being to repay with revenge.the best revenge for such things is walking away for good.Now transition is not *lying* to anyone,that is like saying if someone found out that same day *i have this and i need to do something about it* -which in a sense,they told the truth the day they discovered it,thats like saying they lied for so long and now they cant be trusted.Now some do try their hardest to swallow it like a bitter pill to make the other happy but they slowly rott and die inside.Love is not about forced sacrifice but personal sacrifice and this goes both ways.But transition is not like giving your last bit of money to someone who asks for it,it is something that can literaly rip your entire life apart and could end it completely.there is no time for pointing fingers or saying who should have done what.My mother,family disowned me after many years of abuse and i finally let them go for good and walked away and i am more happy then i have ever been.I refuse to sacrifice self for someone who wouldnt sacrifice a penny for me.and in perspective,i have sacrificed MANY years of my life to make them happy and that was never enough.I would go into details but there has been enough gloom here.The point is,she will never change because thats like asking a robot to suddenly grow a heart.For your actions and transition,she WILL make you suffer until you *realize you did wrong* and come back to *reality*.The more pain you feel,the more likely you are to back away because of your feelings for her.tucking your tail between your legs.like i said i did the same thing BUT on my part,i started to bite back and for their actions,they lost someone they will wish they hadnt treated that way.so now you have to decide.but i wish you luck on whatever that is.And a side note since it seems *the children* are being brought into it.A child will NEVER and does NEVER wish to see their parent *regardless of sex* ripped apart like prey to a wild animal.I know that the children will be happy knowing you are whole and happy for a change.Or they can watch as you rott and even hate the fact your trapped and alive.the choice should be simple but sometimes i know its not.a child WILL understand.
Quote from: Beth Andrea on April 12, 2013, 11:42:49 AM
[/b]
No, the question is whether she wants her child to witness obvious ABUSE, and also to see that she would rather be knuckled into submission, rather than leaving WITH the child, and protecting him, like a good mom--or dad--would do.
There is NO excuse for abuse. She's selfish, and wants a doormat, not a partner.
I've withnessed her type before and the above quote is 100% true. They take untill there is nothing left and the person they are with has no more serviceable use for them. Their problems and situations will always be someone elses fault.
Partnerships are a two way street thru good, bad and ugly. Karla, seems to me you've known this was a oneway street relationship for quite some time given what you have disclosed here.
http://www.aclu.org/files/assets/aclu-tg_parenting_guide.pdf (http://www.aclu.org/files/assets/aclu-tg_parenting_guide.pdf)
You've already pulled the trigger so there is no way to pull anything back now. Your going to be dealing with issues and problems no matter what so start educating yourself and planning now for the worst. One can always hope for the best. :)
P.S. I have seen people as you described your SO faint acceptance and support for short periods of time to gain information to use against someone. Civil court with children is trench warfare at its worst. I wish that I had insite other then this for you.
It sounds like you and your wife had other issues if you've been in marriage therapy for over a year. Coming out to her this week cuts two ways. First, as a great wound for her to rub salt in, "so when are you going to get it cut off?". Second, now she see's even more how you've been lying, betrayed her, made promises you couldn't keep and definet proof that you are far from the man she thought she was marrying.
You nailed it right calling it a toxic relationship. I can tell you how my wife (a child of the 50's) as well as her younger siblings all prayed that their parents would divorce! Every holiday ruined as the inevetable knock down drag out fight started. Many a weekend ruined as her mom tried her best to emasculate the dad. The whole experienced scared her for life and she is still fighting those demons.
Today's kids are far more resilient. Divorce wasn't the dirty little thing today as it was 60 years ago. A good percentage of the kids in his class come from broken families. If there is a marriage to start with, over half end in divorce. There is more than one reason why so many "single" women are raising kids.
Seems to me the best thing you can do for your kid and for yourself is to seperate.
I am in a similar position relationship wise. I finally came to terms with being trans in November and came out to my wife of ten years at the end of January. We don't have children but she is herself my dependent due to her disability.
It seems to me your responsibility is to your 11 year old and an abusive relationship is not something you should tolerate.
My wife and I have had numerous arguments between periods of being too normal if that makes sense. You seem like I am to have accepted you are trans which is a massive thing and to me feels an enormous relief and I feel much calmer as others have said.
If your wife had no idea you had gender identity issues (mine knew a little but I have been in unconcious denial for 10 years and thought it had gone) before you married she has every right as Maid Of Orleans say's to be angry, upset, dejected, demoralised and the rest.
My wife likens it to me having an affair, something I would never do, and that is a painful reality for both us. The fact that you are already in relationship counselling tells it's own story. It honestly sounds like it would better for you both to seperate for yourselves and your children. Your issues, like mine are relationship not trans. You must be willing to accept a lot for the position you put your wife in (even if like me it was not a conscious thing).
I am rapidly coming to realise that my own marriage will end because my wife is not gay and I am struggling to conciously deny who I am as I promised to try in January.
Admitting to yourself you are trans is a one way street. The door cannot be closed and it isn't sensible mentally to try. If you feel you can work through your issues and your wife can admit she is abusive even if elements feel justifiable then the best of luck to you. It is your life but please don't deny your true self. I am failing as I type this and I have delayed the inevitable and caused more heartache and pain.
All my love and best regards, Becky x
I'm going to chime in and agree that this relationship sounds toxic. And I'm still married to the person who was there with me throughout transition. She was upset, and she had some bad days, and we both said some things we regret back in the beginning... But she never would've considered treating me like this, and it's hard to imagine that someone who does treat you that way actually loves you.
Borrowing advice I've seen elsewhere, at this point you're basically already a single parent, except for the part where you're living with someone who makes your life miserable and everything 1000 times more difficult.
I would give it time and see what happens. I mean you've been together for at least 18 years given that you have a daughter in college. Then you have been in couples counseling for a year. I've never been but I thought that was supposed to be about honesty. Now you come out and tell her your trans after a year of lying even in therapy. She may have been trying to get to her 25 year marriage anniversary. I'm not trying to be mean but it may help to try and see things from her POV as well. That is what empathy is all about. You've essentially been lying to her about something really deeply personal for decades. That prob seems like the ultimate betrayal to her. I've been betrayed and feels awful and it's really hard to get over it took me five years. She's going to get upset. And it seems like you expected to be her not to be. I don't know. I'm sorry. These stories get me really down. I'm sorry I'm not going to say anymore. I really do hope things work out for you both.
To say the OP lied to her SO during therapy when the therapy had nothing to do with her,the OP, being TG and was about other issues seems a bit brash to me. Karla was the one doing all the giving and untill pushed seems to have had a handle on her own internal conflict and it did not cause any disharmony within the relationship. With marriage and kids its easy to lose ones self and you become a 'sum' not an individual part, sounds crazy but it happens especialy if your a totally caring and nurturing person. You do lose yourself. When the abuse or confrontations become very intense some times one, Karen in this case, will draw back into themself and think more about how they feel and what they are fighting inside. Been there done that, I know first hand. When the attacks continue and nothing you do is ever good enough or right you finally just take a stand for yourself and you state your true feelings. Which is what it seems happened here with Karla.. only she knows how it happened but it seems very close to my own experience with reguards to being treated as she is. While she may have never told anyone about her feelings of being TG in the past since it did not do any harm prior or get in the way of her life I do not see how it is even a lie of omission. As it stood before it was no different then not telling someone .. ohh I like to paint or I'm a TNG junky. Honesty is many shades of grey some of it protects while other parts can cause great harm.
Quote from: Lorri Kat on April 12, 2013, 07:07:06 PM
While she may have never told anyone about her feelings of being TG in the past since it did not do any harm prior or get in the way of her life I do not see how it is even a lie of omission. As it stood before it was no different then not telling someone .. ohh I like to paint or I'm a TNG junky. Honesty is many shades of grey some of it protects while other parts can cause great harm.
I guess you and I differ on how big of a thing being trans is. It consumes and has consumed my entire life. Correct me if I'm wrong, and if I am I apologize, but you seem to be saying that being trans is on par with painting as a hobby or liking TNG (whatever that is). Maybe I was too harsh but even on support sites and in support groups, it's not always rainbows and butterflies. I was simply saying that I think being trans is kind of a big deal. And if it wasn't why say anything at all. And I have no idea why the OP was in couples counseling but don't you think being trans may possibly have some little effect on the marriage and the relationship. My main point was to consider the wife's POV as well. But I'm really getting sick of arguing.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 12, 2013, 07:53:23 PM
I guess you and I differ on how big of a thing being trans is. It consumes and has consumed my entire life. Correct me if I'm wrong, and if I am I apologize, but you seem to be saying that being trans is on par with painting as a hobby or liking TNG (whatever that is). Maybe I was too harsh but even on support sites and in support groups, it's not always rainbows and butterflies. I was simply saying that I think being trans is kind of a big deal. And if it wasn't why say anything at all. And I have no idea why the OP was in couples counseling but don't you think being trans may possibly have some little effect on the marriage and the relationship. My main point was to consider the wife's POV as well. But I'm really getting sick of arguing.
I've been in this situation, together with someone 10 years, married 6, and a daughter who was 6 at the time we separated. I didn't expect her to stay with me, and when she did (and a week later cheated on me) I ended up leaving her because I knew things would continue to escalate into a deeper toxicity. But to be honest, there were a lot more issues before me coming out that led to me coming out, knowing it would effectively destroy our marriage.
I didn't know that there was such a thing as "transsexual" when I got married. I grew up in Wyoming and... well, I didn't even have TV for the longest time. I just thought I was incurably weird. But that's no excuse, something that big -- I should've just been up front about it. Looking back, I really tried to be, I just couldn't express it because I didn't know the words.
I fully accept that I was in the wrong for marrying her, and that attempting to salvage that relationship for any reason, even my daughter, was just going to end in tragedy.
I see what the Karla says and understand that her wife's reaction is negative. I agree with you that it's justifiably negative. I've been lied to for years by someone very close to me too, and even though they really didn't INTEND to hurt me, they did. Horribly. I'm disgusted with myself for doing the same to someone who trusted me, even though I absolutely have no care in the world for my soulless terrible-mother of an ex-wife. I empathize with both parties, but to hide a core aspect of yourself from someone you promised a life to... well...
Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 12, 2013, 07:53:23 PM
I guess you and I differ on how big of a thing being trans is. It consumes and has consumed my entire life. Correct me if I'm wrong, and if I am I apologize, but you seem to be saying that being trans is on par with painting as a hobby or liking TNG (whatever that is). Maybe I was too harsh but even on support sites and in support groups, it's not always rainbows and butterflies. I was simply saying that I think being trans is kind of a big deal. And if it wasn't why say anything at all. And I have no idea why the OP was in couples counseling but don't you think being trans may possibly have some little effect on the marriage and the relationship. My main point was to consider the wife's POV as well. But I'm really getting sick of arguing.
I think its that some can deal with and control it,TG, more then others and thusly can hold that part within and back from people so that it is something they do not openly share nor does it have to be totally consuming. Every one is different in how they feel and function, my intention was to pose that some can keep it, TG, apart from others in their life just as some keep things they like and are passionate about but their SOs do not like or approve of out of site. Karla was ,from what I read, doing just that untill harrassed and abused to the point as I stated in my prior post were it all just came out. My intention was not meant to belittle or make TG seem less important or trivial. :)
Karla says she "recently realized," though. It's possible that she had hints and suspicions throughout her life (or not), but it sounds like she did NOT know this particular secret and then deliberately hide it for years and years. Now, I don't want to put words in her mouth either, so I'm not saying that is the case - but this story of concerted, long-term betrayal may or may not be accurate.
I know I had my own niggling sense that things didn't work quite the same for me as for other people, but I lived quite happily as a male and considered myself one for about 31 years, then spent a year or so struggling to figure out why I was increasingly unhappy, before I had a literal moment of revelation. I never lied to anybody. Even if Kayla was in deep denial, that's lying to *herself* first, and it's the sort of thing people often take a lot of effort and therapy (which, hey, she did do, and in good faith) to untangle before they dig up The Truth to tell to someone else.
Quote from: Jenna Marie on April 12, 2013, 09:15:25 PM
Karla says she "recently realized," though. It's possible that she had hints and suspicions throughout her life (or not), but it sounds like she did NOT know this particular secret and then deliberately hide it for years and years. Now, I don't want to put words in her mouth either, so I'm not saying that is the case - but this story of concerted, long-term betrayal may or may not be accurate.
I know I had my own niggling sense that things didn't work quite the same for me as for other people, but I lived quite happily as a male and considered myself one for about 31 years, then spent a year or so struggling to figure out why I was increasingly unhappy, before I had a literal moment of revelation. I never lied to anybody. Even if Kayla was in deep denial, that's lying to *herself* first, and it's the sort of thing people often take a lot of effort and therapy (which, hey, she did do, and in good faith) to untangle before they dig up The Truth to tell to someone else.
So tell me how, in the context of the viewpoint of a heterosexual married woman of x number of years who just found out her husband is a woman, it's not a betrayal, not an absolute life demolishing and drastic change? I fully support coming out and believe it's the right thing. Expecting someone to not be angry at such a thing, well, I can't agree with it. It isn't anybody's fault that we're trans, right? But to make connections with people that last decades and then to expect those people to be all hunky dory about uprooting their lives, well, it's completely non-empathetic. I have said that I hold no respect or love for my ex-wife many times. But I understand I hurt her, and I even understand her reaction to hurt me in return. It's a horrid situation all around, and the only thing to do when something is as toxic as this sounds is to get out. Maybe I'm a bitch for defending a horribly negative reaction, but all I'm saying is it's understandable.
Short version: If someone married you and 20 years later you found out that they weren't the person they said they were, to the point you knew your relationship and the life you'd built was over, how would you react?
Luna : Oh, absolutely, it's understandable. I never meant to say otherwise. My point is that there's a difference between *deliberately lying* and springing this on someone out of the blue when you yourself didn't know it was coming until recently. Some posts have talked about deliberate deception, which may not be true. That doesn't mean her wife doesn't have a right to feel betrayed and angry. But I stand by the opinion that treating her in an abusive fashion is still toxic - "justified" or not, a relationship doesn't have much of a future if it's all about vengeance on one's partner. In other words, I agree 100% that "It's a horrid situation all around, and the only thing to do when something is as toxic as this sounds is to get out. "
I felt, and feel, terribly guilty for what I did to my wife, and how I upended our lives. I didn't lie to her, but I did turn her world upside down. I'm very, very lucky that she was willing to work with me through transition, and willing to try to cope with the distress and misery it caused her (she says she didn't, personally, feel betrayed). I don't blame any SO who isn't capable of that kind of adjustment. But again, if it gets to the point where the SO is only staying so they can exact revenge... that's not healthy. For either of them.
Quote from: karla.allen on April 12, 2013, 06:11:44 AM
Just came out to my wife this past Monday, in the context of a couple's therapy session. We had been in therapy for about a year, going around in circles... the more i did to improve things, the angrier she would get with me, until she pushed me over the edge and then we fought.
This week her disrespect, contempt and scorn is coming out... according to the literature on the Beaumont Society, it's supposed to be a phase.
The good news is that, because i recently realised who I am (female) and where i am going, i've been able to keep my cool and quiet my own anger, in a way that i rarely was able to do as an actress forced into a 24/7 male role.
That doesn't make it any easier. She makes me cry and seems to get satisfaction from it. She is also convinced that i have done something really bad, something comparable to having an affair or massive lying. Rather than be defencive, i do my best to be understanding... which only seems to make her meaner. She talks to me with contempt in her voice, pretending that i deserve no better.
Yesterday she wanted sex, and after she was satisfied, asked 'so when are you gonna cut it off'? (No consideration as to my own satisfaction...) and when i started to tell her that it was an important decision that i had hoped to discuss and decide together... she just interrupted and changed the subject.
(Sex with her has always revolved around her, she has never paid attention to the naked male body in bed with her... though now claims that she's not a lesbian and needs a strong man next to her in life. I would like to say, that i'm stronger now than i've ever been. But anything i say is fuel for a fight, so now i say as little as possible and have a private cry. Makes no sense. Thoughts?)
Sorry for the rant. If she were a GF or this were a childless marriage, i'd cut & run. Our daughter is away and married, but our younger child is eleven. So i think about him... and fear of divorce, its costs both financial and emotional... as well as transitioning without a supportive partner. Speaking of strong, anything a man can do, most women can do better. I have risen from a poor city kid to a senior consultant in a global company with good job security. Put her child from her previous marriage through college when her MALE ex-husband hadn't even paid the child support. Is it clear, how i feel? Wants a strong man, hmmmph. Does she even know what she wants?
Just how much nastiness can we take? Has anybody else been in the same position?
She has not taken advantages of any of the SO links or support groups that I have given her.
Please advise... the benefit of your greater experience and wisdom please !
Thanks,
Karla
Get a good lawyer and start to shield your assets. She is going to dump you before you get the opportunity.
Quote from: Jamie D on April 13, 2013, 12:34:31 AM
Get a good lawyer and start to shield your assets. She is going to dump you before you get the opportunity.
Best advice of the entire thread! Honest and to the point while giving a good tip. Me likey.
Quote from: MaidofOrleans on April 12, 2013, 06:29:33 AM
I cant speak on the subject of marriage and children because I could never play guy good enough to get to that point.
From her perspective you have been dishonest and bringing out this huge secret and expecting her to be accepting is a long shot. To be brutally honest with you, despite your good intentions, you may be fighting a losing battle. Generally speaking a happy marriage may be able to cope but in your case it sounds like you were already on a very bumpy road.
In my opinion you need to make a big girl decision and decide whether transition is worth your marriage and the livelihood of your child.
Best advice in this whole thread. If a guy I was dating dropped the T-bomb... it'd be game over, and I'm trans myself. All I can say is I'm glad I'm not into women... and I'm glad I never could advance a relationship more than a couple weeks without them ditching me for something (usually that I don't like my genitals being touched). I feel for ya and everyone out there that has to raise children through all of this.
It sucks that you can't just say "Well I was afraid of what you'd think"... but trust me, bad idea. There's really nothing you can say other than to take whatever she wants to sling at you. If that's something you don't wanna do, well... then maybe you should look for an alternative to your relationship. Because believe me, if a "man" in my life popped that on me and I wanted to hang that over their head... omg I'd run them out the door. She's pretty much in control now. You're a girl, look at it from a girls perspective.
Quote from: Jamie D on April 13, 2013, 12:34:31 AM
Get a good lawyer and start to shield your assets. She is going to dump you before you get the opportunity.
Yup, and probably.
Think about it... a girl that already shows contempt towards you WITHOUT the trans issues, and THEN you give her all the reason in the world to put a bullet in the skull of your relationship. It sucks but... it is what it is. Hell hath no fury...
Thank you all for your thoughtful and insightful replies.
And thanks for the advice to get legal advice! What assets? If i hadn't dodged promotion and held onto a job with less pay and less work so that i could spend more time with family, i'd have assets aplenty today!
For the record, i tried to fool myself 25 years ago; bye and large it worked. By the time my wife and i met, my 'secret' was a dim memory, mostly forgotten like an old speeding ticket... something not part of my life any more.
Not part of my life, yeah, right. It all broke down within about a month. Even though we were in couples therapy, i never even thought of
it.
It may be that you are the only folks who will ever believe me about this. That it was not my intent to deceive my life partner. I feel terrible about the effect that it is having on her.
Quote from: Jenna Marie on April 12, 2013, 09:15:25 PM
Karla says she "recently realized," though. It's possible that she had hints and suspicions throughout her life (or not), but it sounds like she did NOT know this particular secret and then deliberately hide it for years and years... this story of concerted, long-term betrayal may or may not be accurate.
...Even if Kayla was in deep denial, that's lying to *herself* first, and it's the sort of thing people often take a lot of effort and therapy (which, hey, she did do, and in good faith) to untangle before they dig up The Truth to tell to someone else.
I know that I never "betrayed" or "hid" anything from my wife. It was not until our children were grown before I could start to focus on gender/sexual issues that I had more-or-less been able to put out of my mind (one therapist termed it "compartmentalize") for decades.
And the fact of the matter is, gender dysphoria presents in many ways. And we develop coping strategies that can be entirely unique.
Though I wish I had more intently and intelligently explored the gender issues 40 years ago, I did not have the access to information and resources I have now. It was a different world. And no one should be second guessing decisions we made long ago, especially ourselves.
From a girl's perspective... well we're different girls.
Yes, if a woman that i was with decided that she were male... it would depend on how much i care. If i didn't care, i'd politely end the relationship, but NOT expose that person to my sorrow and anger. A trans person has enough on the plate without having to shoulder the burden of somebody else's demands.
If i
did care, but knew that the relationship was doomed, i'd do my best to choke down my emotions and be supportive. oh yes and cry a lot. But taking it out on the other person, saying humiliating things, is just wrong in my opinion. It bespeaks of a culture that doesn't value and cherish women.
Finally, although i've always loved and been attracted to women, i don't think that there's anything wrong with loving a man... i would wait and see how my own feelings developed, or changed. Try on new activities... teach him to shoot, for example. All would depend on how much i loved and respected that person.
Thank you all for letting me vent.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on April 13, 2013, 01:39:42 AM
Best advice in this whole thread. If a guy I was dating dropped the T-bomb... it'd be game over, and I'm trans myself... if a "man" in my life popped that on me and I wanted to hang that over their head... omg I'd run them out the door. She's pretty much in control now. You're a girl, look at it from a girls perspective.
Luna,
Thanks for the perspective. It helps when someone presents the point-of-view that is not present at the moment.
Of course i don't expect her to
not be angry, or to rebound easily. Sorry if i gave that impression.
I should hope that, if our situations were reversed, i'd be able to take a deep breath... and act, rather than react.
Feeling better today... my wife and i are keeping our distance from one another, and collaborating in a civil way over matters of common interest...
Cheers,
Karla
Quote from: luna on April 12, 2013, 10:13:26 PM
So tell me how, in the context of the viewpoint of a heterosexual married woman of x number of years who just found out her husband is a woman, it's not a betrayal, not an absolute life demolishing and drastic change? I fully support coming out and believe it's the right thing. Expecting someone to not be angry at such a thing, well, I can't agree with it. It isn't anybody's fault that we're trans, right? But to make connections with people that last decades and then to expect those people to be all hunky dory about uprooting their lives, well, it's completely non-empathetic. I have said that I hold no respect or love for my ex-wife many times. But I understand I hurt her, and I even understand her reaction to hurt me in return. It's a horrid situation all around, and the only thing to do when something is as toxic as this sounds is to get out. Maybe I'm a bitch for defending a horribly negative reaction, but all I'm saying is it's understandable.
Short version: If someone married you and 20 years later you found out that they weren't the person they said they were, to the point you knew your relationship and the life you'd built was over, how would you react?
Quote from: Jamie D on April 13, 2013, 12:34:31 AM
Get a good lawyer and start to shield your assets. She is going to dump you before you get the opportunity.
I waited 2 years after a contentious divorce before coming all the way out. During my marriage my ex was abusive emotionally and physically without even knowing about my gender issues. When you have a child involved or you have an income which supports you and your family the best course is to get a lawyer, protect yourself, and plan ahead. Courts are required to use the "best interests" standard in child custody, but you will have to prove you can still be a good parent, provide for your child, and take care of your child beyond basic needs for the court to allow for shared parenting. I have three children and it was and has been a long and difficult battle, which was only further complicated by the gender issues. My ex made some very poor decisions through the process and I was deemed to be a much fit then her, resulting in the court giving me full custody of my children. You need to protect yourself, always expect the worse, plan ahead, work out every possibility or situation, look at the laws for your state and case history, get yourself your own therapist, document everything and I mean everything and keep this log away from your home, do everything you can to strengthen and preserve the relationship with your child, start building a separate life, look for credible witnesses who will support you and testify you are a good parent and make sure they see your interaction with your child, if your child goes to school get involved with volunteering, going to parent-teacher conferences, etc., don't do anything without a plan, start saving money (get a second job if you need to- it will get you out of the house, give you money, and help you provide and setup a home of your own), don't react (most importantly don't get angry no matter what), if she becomes physically aggressive toward you call the police. Be careful and safe.
Contempt is a death knell for any marriage. Not something to ignore or deny.
You can have compassion on her for where she is coming from, you can understand her feelings, you can take some time to grieve, but marriages rarely survive when one partner has feelings of contempt toward the other and if you ignore that fact now it will hurt a lot more later (emotionally and legally).
Also, you're too valuable to be in a marriage that's void of kindness.
Sorry
Quote from: karla.allen on April 13, 2013, 06:22:36 AM
From a girl's perspective... well we're different girls.
Yes, if a woman that i was with decided that she were male... it would depend on how much i care. If i didn't care, i'd politely end the relationship, but NOT expose that person to my sorrow and anger. A trans person has enough on the plate without having to shoulder the burden of somebody else's demands.
If i did care, but knew that the relationship was doomed, i'd do my best to choke down my emotions and be supportive. oh yes and cry a lot. But taking it out on the other person, saying humiliating things, is just wrong in my opinion. It bespeaks of a culture that doesn't value and cherish women.
Finally, although i've always loved and been attracted to women, i don't think that there's anything wrong with loving a man... i would wait and see how my own feelings developed, or changed. Try on new activities... teach him to shoot, for example. All would depend on how much i loved and respected that person.
I understand that and all, and from our own perspective we have no room to be unaccepting because we know what it's like to go through. I can totally understand if somebody were to hold that info from me on so many levels, but even understanding it doesn't mean I'd completely look past the fact that I've been in love with somebody all of this time and didn't know
KEY parts of who they are. Don't get me wrong... personally I'd handle it better than she did, but if I wanted you gone from the beginning and we were married... well let's just say that's my kill shot and if I didn't get my way (fairly) in getting out of the relationship I'd use it.
What I was getting at in my previous post is that it seems like there's been underlying tension in your relationship before the trans issue came about. Of course she could be more understanding (and should from a humane perspective), but if she had contempt for you to begin with, why would she try to be understanding of this if she doesn't care to keep the relationship healthy to begin with?
There are a few girls out there that would continue to love you for who you are and continue the romantic relationship in hopes of it improving, but like I've told Kathy before... from what it sounds like the chances are slim and especially slim in your particular case.
Sorry... but I do hope for the best.
Quote from: ashley_thomas on April 13, 2013, 08:47:03 AM
Contempt is a death knell for any marriage. Not something to ignore or deny.
You can have compassion on her for where she is coming from, you can understand her feelings, you can take some time to grieve, but marriages rarely survive when one partner has feelings of contempt toward the other and if you ignore that fact now it will hurt a lot more later (emotionally and legally).
Also, you're too valuable to be in a marriage that's void of kindness.
Sorry
This too :)
Hi Karla and all,
I'm new here and still finding my way around but this whole thread hit a still raw nerve. I'm 55 and grew up in a country and at a time where words like transgender and transsexual were simply not part of the vocabulary. From my earliest memories I was more attracted to the female world than the male and as an adolescent used to crossdress in private every opportunity that I had, even sleeping in a nightdress that I used to sneak on under the bed clothes as I shared a room with one of my older brothers.
Since I had absolutely no reference point to help me understand the way I was, I just felt terrible about myself, with constant feelings of guilt and real difficulty connecting with those who were around me, both family and school mates. A very, very, lonely time which finished with me running away from home at 18, to a different country with a different language.
By miracle and no doubt a good survival instinct, in spite of starting with nothing (I arrived in my new country in 1976 with a about 500$ knowing no one and with only a limited knowledge of the language) everything worked out fairly OK and some years later I even graduated from a very good engineering school in my country of adoption.
I also married one of the first woman who showed any interest in me, in 1982, and that was one of the biggest mistakes in my life. Both she and I had very low self-esteem and we spent 18 years making life misery for each other. Over the years we did have 3 children though, the first in 1984 and for years that was one of the main reasons I didn't get out of what I quite quickly understood to be a seriously toxic relationship. I loved and still love my children passionately and leaving their mother meant largely cutting myself off from them. However, in 1999, I finally decided I had to make the break, that things were so bad it was not even in the children's interest that we stay together.
My ex-wife, a very fragile woman with her own demons, went ballistic when I left and played every trick in the book to turn the children against me, very nearly succeeding.
However I hung in there and, in spite of some really black moments, never abandoned hope that I would one day get close to my children again. The support I got from friends at that time made me really understand what true friends are.
Getting out of that relationship also finally put me on the path that would eventually allow me to be myself. While married, I had continued cross dressing in private, still hating myself for it, feeling deep shame about being such a pervert. My ex-wife found some of my stuff and made a huge stink about it which I lied my way out of. However ,when I finally found myself living single again I started to explore my feminine side far more deeply and quickly started going out "en femme". We were now into the years 2000 and thanks to the internet in particular, there was more and more information available about gender identity disorders etc and I finally started to gain some understanding about why I was the way I was. By the time I met my second wife, eight years ago almost to the day, I was able to be completely up front with her about who I was. It was starting point to the most fantastic relationship I have ever had, as loving, supportive and understanding as two people can have.
The constrast with my first mariage simply couldn't be greater and when I look back on it, I think the key to all of that was me finally accepting that I was who I was and that I had no reason to feel any shame about that. While not particularly religious Christ's teaching " Love others as you love youself" is full of wisdom. Loving others starts with learning to love yourself which starts with self acceptance.
Thanks to what has become by far the most important relationship in my life, I am well on the way to a complete transition with a lot of the big steps already behind me, HRT, FFS, beard removal, hair implants and coming out to everyone who counts, including my employer. More time will be necessary before I can transition on the job but I am confident that I will get there eventually as I believe that the quality of my work and the relationships I have built will be enough to get me over that obstacle.
I think it is also worth mentioning that I have rebuilt the bridges with my kids who were respectively 15, 11 & 7 when I quit their mother in 1999. I have two daughters and a son and my coming out (in 2011) has actually brought us closer together. Strangely, this has been especially true with my son with whom I have a particularly close relationship, far more open than is often the case between fathers and sons.
So Karla, yes, finally accepting that things simply can't go on the way they are can be brutally hard (some of the memories that surged while writing this still bring tears to my eyes) but I believe no one who is really TG can run away from it forever . Happily, with more knowledge and visibility, society is far more accepting of people like us today . Transitioning on the job is still a big challenge, especially when in a fairly high profile position, but for people in general, my experience has been that it is not really a problem. On balance I have received way more positive feedback than negative.
As my little story illustrates, a lot of the time we build our own prisons but the day we break out, life can look an awful lot sweeter.
Take care and "bon courage"
Donna
Quote from: kkut on April 13, 2013, 10:44:10 AM
........
People who compartmentalize scare the hell out of me, .......
My psychiatrist back in the mid 70's said I could put aside my feelings or start boxing them up. Maybe it was some sort of therapy back then, but it really did nothing for me and screwed me up in the end. Within three months of ending my therapy and going back to college I drifted into alcohol and drugs, and basically went back to the box and took out all my emotions. What a great way to treat patients. He had never said I might be gender dysphoric, and what he did sure didn't address the problem.
Kathy
Life isn't so much about the cards you were dealt from the pack, but how you play them.
It seems to me that you and your wife have played your hands and the game is over.
My take is that this woman no longer belongs in your life and needs to be transferred to your past.
I think the lesson here is that before you enter into a relationship with anyone else you need to have the relationship you have with yourself sorted out first.
IWYW
Quote from: Carlita on April 12, 2013, 10:28:46 AM
As for your son, well, you know him and love him and it's not for me or anyone else to say what you should do. One thing I would say, in general, is it seems to me to be better to transition as early as possible in a child's life. By the time they hit puberty and are developing their own sexual identity, I think it must get a lot more tricky. I'm certainly very conscious of that in my son's case.
In the end, you must choose your own path through all this. I wish you all the very best luck in the world. And, like all the other girls here have said, I'm here for you, any time.
I agree that it is probably not a very good idea to come out to one's kids during their puberty so the choice is either very early or later. My youngest was 18 when I came out and it really worked out fine. BTW, after it was clear in my own mind what I needed to do, it was a deliberate choice to wait until then before starting to do anything too visible eg. FFS.
Beyond that, with time and love we can achieve remarkable things.
Donna
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on April 13, 2013, 08:48:04 AM
I understand that and all, and from our own perspective we have no room to be unaccepting because we know what it's like to go through. I can totally understand if somebody were to hold that info from me on so many levels, but even understanding it doesn't mean I'd completely look past the fact that I've been in love with somebody all of this time and didn't know KEY parts of who they are. Don't get me wrong... personally I'd handle it better than she did, but if I wanted you gone from the beginning and we were married... well let's just say that's my kill shot and if I didn't get my way (fairly) in getting out of the relationship I'd use it.
What I was getting at in my previous post is that it seems like there's been underlying tension in your relationship before the trans issue came about. Of course she could be more understanding (and should from a humane perspective), but if she had contempt for you to begin with, why would she try to be understanding of this if she doesn't care to keep the relationship healthy to begin with?
There are a few girls out there that would continue to love you for who you are and continue the romantic relationship in hopes of it improving, but like I've told Kathy before... from what it sounds like the chances are slim and especially slim in your particular case.
Sorry... but I do hope for the best.
This too :)
Girl I like your post. It's very honest and I must admit I would also use that info against someone if I wanted out
Your wife doesn't want a strong man, she wants a man she can manipulate. She is the one with real problems...
I had a similar problem with my with a few years ago – way before my gender difficulties became to much for me. My wife said she wanted a strong man. I told her to list criteria of a strong man and we went through and eliminated the ones that were unrealistic for a human or contradictory with other criteria. I then showed how I fulfilled every other one of them. You have been strong.
She also used to say "Your supposed to take care of me" as an excuse for paying attention to me only when she wanted something. I politely told her that in a marriage, the couple takes care of each other and then asked if she wanted to be married. All of the sudden, we started working on things but I was ready for her to leave. I'm sorry but you may wish to prepare yourself.
She believes her man is dying and in part, she is right. I try to emphasize the positive changes and to keep her informed. We do discuss things from time to time as well but there is a difference between informing and discussing. She knows I am changing physically and has noticed that mentally, I am calmer, more at peace with myself (which she likes). Other than that, there have been no mental changes. I try to emphasis the positive in her and I try to be supporting of her. She sometimes gets strange, like trying to tease me about my breasts (I pointed at them and said – Nice, eh?) or even this morning when she yelled at me about singing in soprano in the shower (I asked her to join in and I'd take the harmony). I mostly present as male outside our home. The sex has gotten better. She is supportive of transition up to a point. If all of this sounds good, it isn't quite – I'd give us 1 in 3 of being together this time next year.
Girl, you have a tough row to hoe here. Speaking to you therapist privately and speaking to a lawyer privately may be reasonable.
Quote from: karla.allen on April 13, 2013, 03:46:13 AM
That it was not my intent to deceive my life partner. I feel terrible about the effect that it is having on her.
I wouldn't beat yourself up about this. Deception is a part of Nature, especially when it's for protection.
Compare, for example, the non-venomous black, red and yellow king snake against the highly venomous red, black and yellow coral snake.
A trans person using stealth is basically making use of a natural ability for valid reasons. I get that totally.
Also while we're on the subject of Nature, look on the bright side. Imagine what would have happened if you were a praying mantis or Black Widow spider.
Point taken, Stella. No need to 'lose my head' over all this ;)
Quote from: StellaB on April 13, 2013, 08:18:23 PM
...look on the bright side. Imagine what would have happened if you were a praying mantis or Black Widow spider.