Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Community Conversation => Transitioning => Hormone replacement therapy => Topic started by: fae_reborn on August 05, 2009, 08:00:08 PM

Title: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: fae_reborn on August 05, 2009, 08:00:08 PM
I can't remember where I read it, so if it was a recent topic forgive this duplicate one.

But I remember reading somewhere on the forum, that Progesterone, taken with E, actually helps increase breast size?  Is this true?  I will be seeing my Endo next month and will have to ask if it'll help in my situation, as my breasts are somewhere between AA and A, and I would like a B cup and some cleavage (I have none) if at all possible, without a BA.  I'm sort of self conscious about my breast size, and I'm hoping to get slightly bigger ones without surgery.  Given my proportions, they could stand to be a little bigger than they are now.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Nicky on August 05, 2009, 08:22:13 PM
Progetogens will help your breasts mature - without them you can sometimes end up with odd cylynder shaped breasts.

They might not get bigger, but progestogens might help them become fuller.

How long have you been on hormones? It can take a number of years to reach your potential.

For cleavage I would suggest a good wonder bra  :)
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: fae_reborn on August 05, 2009, 08:41:39 PM
A fuller bust would help...if they filled out more maybe I might actually have some cleavage.  Right now they're so far apart from each other, any bra I try doesn't give me any cleavage.

I've been on HRT for about 2 1/2 yrs now.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: LynnER on August 05, 2009, 10:00:05 PM
Progesterone helps, but not as much if your taking Spiro as your T blocker... spiro interfears with T receptors and also P receptors among other things...
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: katherine on August 06, 2009, 08:22:06 AM
My understanding is that it doesn't contribute much to growth.  E is largely responsible for that.  Prog, as I understand, and as stated by Nicky, will help make your breasts fuller and rounder.  I've also heard that prog isn't something we need to take until such time as our breasts have gone through some development.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: fae_reborn on August 07, 2009, 07:29:39 PM
Quote from: LynnER on August 05, 2009, 10:00:05 PM
Progesterone helps, but not as much if your taking Spiro as your T blocker... spiro interfears with T receptors and also P receptors among other things...

I stopped taking Spiro after I had my Orchiectomy last fall, so this isn't really an issue AFAIK.

Quote from: Katherine on August 06, 2009, 08:22:06 AM
My understanding is that it doesn't contribute much to growth.  E is largely responsible for that.  Prog, as I understand, and as stated by Nicky, will help make your breasts fuller and rounder.  I've also heard that prog isn't something we need to take until such time as our breasts have gone through some development.

Well, they've been developing for some time, and having them be "fuller" and "rounder" would certainly help things, I think.

I will have to talk to my doctor about it.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: mmelny on August 07, 2009, 08:51:17 PM
Quote from: LynnER on August 05, 2009, 10:00:05 PM
Progesterone helps, but not as much if your taking Spiro as your T blocker... spiro interfears with T receptors and also P receptors among other things...

I would love to know where this came from, if you could cite references.  I'm presently in a "battle" with my health center over this very issue.  As a whole, they will not prescribe progesterone.  Except in special cases, to satisfy the 'harm-reduction model' they operate under.   My personal physician (at this center) explicitly stated that there are no P receptors in genetic male trans persons.  I questioned this statement but was never provided any studies or evidence of this statement.    The topic has been re-introduced to the governing body of my health center (because of my actions), and they are reviewing their policy on administration of progesterone for their MtF patients.  The last word I received,  was that they follow the findings of the WHI (Women's Health Initiative), of which I'm am somewhat ignorant, but have read a few blurbs of, and it does paint an ugly picture.   There are risks to Progesterone, (as well, as about anything, eh?).   Their policies will probably not change, I'm guessing, unless some evidence / studies are found that show benefit to the increased DVT/Cardiovascular/Cancer risks that are evident with Progesterone when used with Estrogen.

Quote from: Fae on August 05, 2009, 08:00:08 PM
I can't remember where I read it, so if it was a recent topic forgive this duplicate one.

But I remember reading somewhere on the forum, that Progesterone, taken with E, actually helps increase breast size?  Is this true?  I will be seeing my Endo next month and will have to ask if it'll help in my situation, as my breasts are somewhere between AA and A, and I would like a B cup and some cleavage (I have none) if at all possible, without a BA.  I'm sort of self conscious about my breast size, and I'm hoping to get slightly bigger ones without surgery.  Given my proportions, they could stand to be a little bigger than they are now.

Sooo,, being long winded... I found myself in this situation, because similarly, my breasts were just a tad bit too small for my satisfaction with the just the results of E and AA's.  They were close, but not close enough, lol.   I read several 'subjective' accounts of breast growth with P on the internet.  I went forward with a Progesterone regimen, in a dosage level that was typically prescribed for trans women..  Within a month my breasts were tender again, like they had been with E, some 6 months prior.  Four months later of being on P, I was a cup size larger.  And, no longer considering a BA.   One less sugery, yay for me.   Except... I won't be on P forever.  Only for 14-16 months, this was a decision I made when starting P.   And the reports vary on if breasts will shrink with the elimination of P from the regimen.  But, in this one case, I would say a definitive yes, for me, that I had breast growth from P, but I can't ascertain that it will 'stick', after I'm off of it in a year.  Ask me in 18 months.

*huggs*,
Melan

Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: fae_reborn on August 07, 2009, 09:03:12 PM
Quote from: Melan on August 07, 2009, 08:51:17 PM
Sooo,, being long winded... I found myself in this situation, because similarly, my breasts were just a tad bit too small for my satisfaction with the just the results of E and AA's.  They were close, but not close enough, lol.   I read several 'subjective' accounts of breast growth with P on the internet.  I went forward with a Progesterone regimen, in a dosage level that was typically prescribed for trans women..  Within a month my breasts were tender again, like they had been with E, some 6 months prior.  Four months later of being on P, I was a cup size larger.  And, no longer considering a BA.   One less sugery, yay for me.   Except... I won't be on P forever.  Only for 14-16 months, this was a decision I made when starting P.   And the reports vary on if breasts will shrink with the elimination of P from the regimen.  But, in this one case, I would say a definitive yes, for me, that I had breast growth from P, but I can't ascertain that it will 'stick', after I'm off of it in a year.  Ask me in 18 months.

Thanks Melan!  That sounds really good, I would love to be a cup size bigger, and more rounder/fuller  ;)
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Nero on August 07, 2009, 09:15:28 PM
From the pics I've seen of tubular breast development, I'd say there are cases where normal looking breasts (fuller, mature shape) is even more pertinent than size.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: LynnER on August 07, 2009, 11:43:16 PM
Heres part of it... I could have been wrong about it being a full on P blocker...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineralocorticoid_receptor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineralocorticoid_receptor)
The mineralocorticoid receptor
The receptor is activated by mineralocorticoids such as aldosterone and deoxycorticosterone as well as glucocorticoids, like cortisol and cortison. It also responds to some progestins. Spironolactone and eplerenone are mineralocorticoid receptor antagonists.

Somewhere I had a paper from my doctor that gave more information but I cant find it, but this was coppy pasted from wikipedia.  If I find the paper, or next time I see him I'll see if I can get another copy.

Also <brought up by my doctor>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldactone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldactone)
Research has also shown that spironolactone can interfere with the effectiveness of antidepressant treatment. The drug is actually (among its other receptor interactions) a mineralocorticoid (MR) antagonist, and has been found to reduce the effectiveness of antidepressant drugs in the treatment of major depression, presumably by interfering with normalization of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis in patients receiving antidepressant therapy. [6]

My new doctor is afraid of injectables... I had been taking both E and P intramuscularly and he took me off the P totally... and reduced me to taking a low dosage of E in tablet form... Actually trying to get me to take horse urine pills (no way in Hades)  I can deffenatly feel the difference of the lower E and having no P in my system... and my breasts are nowhere near as perky as they had been X(
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: katherine on August 08, 2009, 06:59:29 AM
Quote from: Melan on August 07, 2009, 08:51:17 PM
   My personal physician (at this center) explicitly stated that there are no P receptors in genetic male trans persons.
I have no medical background, but I have come across so much information on medical and non-medical sites that indicate males do have progesterone in their systems, and that it is a precursor to testosterone. Doing a Google search for male + progesterone will pull up quite a bit of information.
Many medical personnel who work with trans persons can't seem to agree on the administration of prog for MtF, even though they understand that it is a part of the female hormonal cocktail. As I understand, E and prog aid in breast development.  Also this link to a powerpoint presentation is very informative...
http://www.trans-health.com/displayarticle.php?aid=127 (http://www.trans-health.com/displayarticle.php?aid=127)
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Myself on August 12, 2009, 07:16:00 AM
Quote from: Melan on August 07, 2009, 08:51:17 PM
My personal physician (at this center) explicitly stated that there are no P receptors in genetic male trans persons.

Your physician is an idiot! male and female bodies are pretty much identical except for structure influenced mostly by hormones as we already know.

Progesterone, from experience, helps and does a lot, on high dose progesterone I had my breast hurt so much I thought I was having a heart attack :X
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: mmelny on August 12, 2009, 09:09:26 PM
Quote from: Myself on August 12, 2009, 07:16:00 AM
Your physician is an idiot!

I wouldn't go that far, but I would say that there aren't enough (or any) studies completed in this area (prescription of progesterone to MtF patients)  to provide CYA to prescribing physicians.   Someday, but not today.  So we make our own battles, mostly fought out on TG forums, such as this one.  I can't goto my physician with opinions, nor can I cite facts, there are none (that relate to positive affects of progesterone on MtF patients), of which are relevant to the progesterone question.

*huggs*,
Melan
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Myself on August 13, 2009, 02:31:56 AM
Quote from: SilverFang on August 13, 2009, 02:15:30 AM
Yes, still butting in. The only way for you to be missing progesterone receptors is if there were no gene for it. Even if it is on the female chromosome (X), there is no way you could not have it unless you were born with a rare genetic condition in which that gene did not work.

According to current knowledge in genetics, males cannot possibly be lacking any receptors for female proteins, or female protein genes. So he is an idiot.

Cheers,
SilverFloe

Well like you said, they can if they have a rare genetic disease.
Like, giantism is caused because of lack of estrogens for whatever reason, or excessive growth pattern or even excessive growth hormone.

A variation of giantism (usually in males only as in females the chance is reallllllllllly low) is a missing or broken gene of the estrogen receptors.
If that is the case, estrogen pills/injections do not stop giantism and the bones continue to grow until the material bone is created from is consumed, that is called "proliferative exhaustion".

Estrogen actually causes "pre-mature" proliferative exhaustion, then again - since this premature proliferative exhaustion is normal, it is the other proliferative exhaustion which is considered abnormal :D

Maybe the world had giants after all!

I'd like to point a thought which came across my mind for a bit.
XX has double the receptors for progesterones and estrogens.
It doesn't explain why the breasts grow better, just in case someone came to that conclusion.
As we can see trans from young age have normal growth with normal regimes if not even lower.

We should have more receptors than the estrogen that can flood them anyways.
Another thing to consider is the "disease" that causes giant breasts, I think recorded up to 74 pounds per breast, it's caused by either a lot of estrogen in the body or over-sensitivity.
So apparently increasing amount of estrogen should help, but even better is find ways to increase estrogen sensitivity.

You probably heard of insulin insensetivity and sensitivity or even androgens.
It is well known certain foods, chemicals, lifestyles and etc increase and decreases sensitivity for different compounds in the body.

If anyone feels like it, we should look for ways to increase estrogen sensitivity and post them here or in a new thread over the hormone therapy boards.

Anyone is interested? :)
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: sweetstars on August 13, 2009, 07:46:59 AM
Actually after over two years on hormones, the size you are about right now is not going to change much.  An increase in estrogen or adding in progesterone is not going to help much.   BA is probably the only path to bigger breasts.

Progesterone can help in terms of shape with regards to breast size and result in a more natural development, but that it is something that really should come early in HRT, not later.  Even then its no garuntee.

With that being said I know women who have been on progesterone at the same stage you are at, and have had the same issues with development.  But the progesterone did help with body shape. 

Also if you started over the age of 35 HRT is not going to help much in terms of breast development.  Age is probably one of the most important factors, but so is sensitivity to hormones.

I should note, I was on progesterone fairly early into HRT, I have been on HRT about as long as you have, but I was already an A cup at 4 or 5 months, I was getting development without progesterone.  I am now a C cup, and one of those very rare transitioners who is a Tanner Stage V without BA.  But I also started HRT in my late twenties, and from what I know even with younger transitioners (those 18-35), this is unusual.  Most I have known have had problems with development, no matter the age, I have known those who started HRT at 18 have major problems.  It is uncommon for thier to be full development with trans women, if you get beyond a small B its pretty uncommon (maybe 1 in 6).  I am one of the lucky few who has been blessed naturally, but even with me its been a very gradual (and painful) process, but I realize I am lucky to have gone through the process considering who I am.  For me it was 4-5 months from AA to A (I had gynomastasia, and I was an A at periods before transition), then almost a year from A to B, and almost another year to get to C.   

While breast growth is gradual...it did happen for me, but it doesn't happen for most.  Progesterone can help some, maybe contribute to 1/4 a cup size if started early into hrt.  The thing is development is not garunteed, this is why many trans women opt for BA. 
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Steffi on August 31, 2009, 02:24:59 PM
Here are Dr Curtis's comments on Progesterone.
I am concerned about my breast development and was considering starting to take it, but I do find his explanations and arguments against here very persuasive.
http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/Progesterone.pdf (http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/Progesterone.pdf)

- and I feel that his comments on Estrogen dosage are also interesting and worthy of consideration
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Autumn on August 31, 2009, 03:46:26 PM
Very interesting article. I only wish he had commented some on micronized progesterone. Over the years a lot of information that has come out was due to older drugs - but unfortunately, of course, we're a small test body.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Julie Marie on August 31, 2009, 03:50:22 PM
Quote from: Fae on August 05, 2009, 08:00:08 PM
But I remember reading somewhere on the forum, that Progesterone, taken with E, actually helps increase breast size?  Is this true? 

My doctor said that when he suggested progesterone to me.  I went on it for about 6 months but it had no effect.  Later I talked to him about it and he said he was disappointed in the results with P and its effect on breast growth.

Julie
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: FairyGirl on August 31, 2009, 04:21:17 PM
Quote from: Steffi on August 31, 2009, 02:24:59 PM
Here are Dr Curtis's comments on Progesterone.
I am concerned about my breast development and was considering starting to take it, but I do find his explanations and arguments against here very persuasive.
http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/Progesterone.pdf (http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/Progesterone.pdf)

- and I feel that his comments on Estrogen dosage are also interesting and worthy of consideration
thanks for the link Steffi, that sounds very persuasive to me as well and contains some very interesting information. I asked my endo about P early on and he told me it had no appreciable effect and would just be another hormone with the associated risks to have to take. From what I've read here, it seems like the only reliable way to know for sure is to ask a doctor whom you trust and not go by anecdotal evidence which obviously varies widely.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Autumn on August 31, 2009, 10:05:49 PM
At least this big box of progesterone didn't cost nearly as much as some of the other stuff did.  :embarrassed:
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: mmelny on September 01, 2009, 05:59:20 PM
Quote from: Steffi on August 31, 2009, 02:24:59 PM
Here are Dr Curtis's comments on Progesterone.
I am concerned about my breast development and was considering starting to take it, but I do find his explanations and arguments against here very persuasive.
http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/Progesterone.pdf (http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/Progesterone.pdf)

- and I feel that his comments on Estrogen dosage are also interesting and worthy of consideration

Wonderful read, Thank You Steffi for posting that.  It's made me rethink my progesterone prescription, and am going to talk it over with my doctor at my next appt in a few weeks.   I know which way he leans already, which is for me to NOT be on it.  Some of the points in this article hit pretty dead on, like quite possibly the reason that I had breast growth during the period that I have been on P, could quite well because I did gain weight.   Enough so that I'm in process of losing it now through exercise and low-calorie/carb dieting, and wonder if it won't come right off the breasts.   

If indeed I come off P, and weight loss takes back my breastage, it looks like another surgery, a BA, which I was soo happy to not have to do.  But there's no way I can happily continue at my present weight, I so hate having extra pounds on.  And having larger breasts really has made me feel more complete.  They aren't huge, but they definitely enhance my silhouette, and look and feel (and when felt) great.  I pray they don't recede.  I hate the idea of having 'fake' breasts, but an A, or small B cup just won't do, for my large frame.   

But thank you for the post, it's one of the first writings on the subject that has swayed me the other way on this topic.

*huggs*,
Melan

Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Autumn on September 01, 2009, 10:30:30 PM
Over 40% of women have a B cup according to some reports I read this morning. Like 1% have double D. Most of the women I know are double D - but they're quite fat. My ex is losing weight and the first place it came from was her boobs, which of course made her quite sad.

Breasts are mostly fat. It's a tradeoff. I've had other friends tell me they didn't like gaining weight but felt more whole with bigger boobs.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: fae_reborn on September 01, 2009, 10:36:25 PM
Thanks for your replies everyone, and Steffi thanks for posting that link.  I am seeing my endo in a few weeks so I will ask and see if it would make a difference.

Oddly enough, I have noticed that my breasts have started growing again, so maybe I will just have to be patient and see where I am in another year.  ;D
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: V M on September 01, 2009, 10:54:11 PM
I'm rather glad for this thread. I've been considering hormone therapy for awhile now. But finding someone who is able and willing to prescribe it is somewhat a challenge in my area.

Could someone elaborate on what the risks are?
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Hannah on September 02, 2009, 01:02:40 AM
I liked that paper, it gave me a giggle and it kind of supports cycling estrogen levels. The best part is 'to get bigger boobs eat more pies'. Thank you for posting it.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Valerie Elizabeth on September 02, 2009, 01:33:26 AM
So, please disregard what I said.  I decided to retract it because it's 2am, I'm exhausted from work, and don't want to sound like a jackass without doing proper research first.

Sorry.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Autumn on September 02, 2009, 01:42:36 AM
The article actually got me to go and buy a pie and some frozen yogurt. I know, ice cream would be better, but I'm doing this gradually.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: V M on September 02, 2009, 01:43:45 AM
Quote from: Becca on September 02, 2009, 01:02:40 AM
I liked that paper, it gave me a giggle and it kind of supports cycling estrogen levels. The best part is 'to get bigger boobs eat more pies'. Thank you for posting it.
Mmmmm, I love cherry pie with dark chocolate drizzled on top. Or cheese cake. But I don't eat much sweets anymore  :P
Quote from: Valerie Elizabeth on September 02, 2009, 01:33:26 AM
So, please disregard what I said.  I decided to retract it because it's 2am, I'm exhausted from work, and don't want to sound like a jackass without doing proper research first.

Sorry.
Don't worry. Never saw it
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Hannah on September 02, 2009, 01:45:10 AM
Article or no article personally I plan to try it at the 12 month mark. Some people swear by it and some call it quackery, but with micronised progesterone in my opinion the potential benefits outweigh the risks.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: aurora17 on September 03, 2009, 09:34:51 PM
I was using progestin (Provera) for 3 months at the beginning of my HRT, but I felt the bad secondary effects (headaches, depression, etc) so I switched to micronized progesterone instead. I feel more sleepy at night, but I definitely sleep much better, with vivid dreams, I feel more relaxed and, maybe my breasts are growing firmer (but it might not be related). In any case, the health benefits of natural progresterone are good enough and I will keep using it until... maybe forever  ;D
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Alyssa M. on September 03, 2009, 10:26:44 PM
mmmmmmmmm......... pie........ I shall have some right now. Peach, with a scoop of vanilla ice cream.

However, I'm probably going to fall off the wagon this weekend and go on a long hike, or maybe a 50-mile bike ride up in the mountains. I just don't have what it takes to keep up an optimum breast-enhancing lifestyle.  :'( :laugh:
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Valerie Elizabeth on September 04, 2009, 12:02:53 AM
Quote from: Alyssa M. on September 03, 2009, 10:26:44 PM
mmmmmmmmm......... pie........ I shall have some right now. Peach, with a scoop of vanilla ice cream.

However, I'm probably going to fall off the wagon this weekend and go on a long hike, or maybe a 50-mile bike ride up in the mountains. I just don't have what it takes to keep up an optimum breast-enhancing lifestyle.  :'( :laugh:

Wait, I'm confused.  You are stopping hormones for a bike ride or a hike?  Did I miss something?
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: V M on September 04, 2009, 12:09:50 AM
 We're eating pies. Would you like a slice or two or three?  :laugh:
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Valerie Elizabeth on September 04, 2009, 12:11:16 AM
Quote from: Virginia Marie on September 04, 2009, 12:09:50 AM
We're eating pies. Would you like a slice or two or three?


Hmmm.  I'm going to have to pass on this one.  I kinda have this opposition to pie...
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: V M on September 04, 2009, 12:18:16 AM
That's okay, I can't eat much sweets anymore. So I'm eating a turkey pot pie  :laugh:
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Valerie Elizabeth on September 04, 2009, 12:22:02 AM
Quote from: Virginia Marie on September 04, 2009, 12:18:16 AM
That's okay, I can't eat much sweets anymore. So I'm eating a turkey pot pie  :laugh:


Oh, I love my sweets, and can still eat plenty of them.  I just don't like pie.  It's just weird.  Yuck.  lol.



Anyway, to get back on topic.  I think I remember reading in another thread that you should start taking progesterone after about a year.  Anyone else hear something similar?
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Hannah on September 04, 2009, 01:39:09 AM
Yeah, I think it was on Dr. Bushong's website but I'm not sure. I wonder why they suggest waiting; I'm curious if being on hrt for a time first causes our bodies to make extra receptors or some other change to enable it. That would explain the wide variety of reports on it, I don't think I've ever read any study with a one year previous hrt qualifier.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Alyssa M. on September 04, 2009, 01:58:13 AM
Valerie, the article posted earlier in the topic described progesterone as useless at best in helping with breast growth: "For those who wish bigger breasts, save your money, reduce the side effects and longer term risks and just eat more pies."

The author of the article says that best feminization usually goes with a weight gain of about ten pounds, and suggests avoiding large amounts of cardiovascular exercise.

The pies I can do. Avoiding extreme cardio workouts will be tough. Taking estrogen and spiro is assumed.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Valerie Elizabeth on September 04, 2009, 07:57:53 AM
Quote from: Alyssa M. on September 04, 2009, 01:58:13 AM
Valerie, the article posted earlier in the topic described progesterone as useless at best in helping with breast growth: "For those who wish bigger breasts, save your money, reduce the side effects and longer term risks and just eat more pies."

The author of the article says that best feminization usually goes with a weight gain of about ten pounds, and suggests avoiding large amounts of cardiovascular exercise.

The pies I can do. Avoiding extreme cardio workouts will be tough. Taking estrogen and spiro is assumed.

I can't gain weight if I tried, and I am trying.  Since starting hormones, I have dropped 10 pounds. 

I understand what the article said.  I don't agree with it though.  I feel like I have read more articles for progesterone, and now one against it.  I don't know though, as I can't back that statement up at the moment.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Alyssa M. on September 04, 2009, 01:13:22 PM
I'll see how it goes and consult with my doctor; for now I'm reasonably happy with my progress, but it's been only about six months.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Hannah on September 04, 2009, 04:28:07 PM
Quote from: Alyssa M. on September 04, 2009, 01:58:13 AM
suggests avoiding large amounts of cardiovascular exercise...

I would go bat-crazy without daily cardiovascular exercise. The peaceful, wonderful almost spiritual experience of working it right below threshold is indescribable, and I wouldn't trade it for D cups and a meaty bubble butt, no way. I think wer'e starting to read more into the paper than we should, it's just one persons opinion based on their experience and tempered by their observations and prejudices.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Myself on September 04, 2009, 04:36:33 PM
plenty of women do cardio and even more.

The only reasonable arguments I found in the document (and I do believe they are quite reasonable) are:
* Progesterone does not start until few years after breast development (I don't know how accurate that is).
* Androgenic effects but then again, micro progesterone is available and I hoped to hear of it too.
* weight gains is obvious, not sure why it was even mentioned.
* there was an argument I have a bit of a problem with, she mentioned the average cup is B for normals girls and HRT girls, she claimed that even though the breast is the same size, the bones are not always therefore it might look bigger or smaller on some people.
The thing is, the cup is relative to the band, so 32B 36B and 34B all have different cup sizes even tough they are all called B.
As the underband gets smaller or bigger, the cap gets smaller or bigger also.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: aubrey on September 05, 2009, 02:45:34 AM
The girls with the best development IMO (overall, not just the breasts) are taking P, so whether or not a study agrees with that doesn't matter to me. Saying it is useless is hilarious though being that it is naturally present in the human body. But as far as studies go I agree with the theory that P balances out most if not all of the negative effects of E dominance.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Steffi on September 05, 2009, 06:12:09 PM
Quote from: Aurora17In any case, the health benefits of natural progresterone are good enough
...... didn't I just link to a paper by a reputable Dr (who is also a trans person and therefore presumably sympathetic to our issues in general) the summary of which is that there is NO upside to Progesterone and given a choice even most natal femmes wouldn't have it?  :P

btw..... the only way to settle the issue definitively is to get a few sets of identical trans-twins and give one P and not the other.
..... can't see that happening any time soon.....
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: andrea on February 15, 2010, 06:15:03 AM
I do question some things about the paper, though. It mentions "progesterone" but does not specify whether the progesterone is bio-identical or a progestin. I believe there was quite a bit of bad press with progestins, like medroxyprogesterone. Incidentally, the pdf is under "Medpro-Assets", which may be a reference to the progestin medroxyprogesterone.

Another thing is that while a hypothesis was postulated regarding the (non)effect of progesterone on breast size, it does not seem to cite the doctor's own research, or specific external research. I would love to look at the papers and their findings. This will affect academic credibility of the paper, but doesn't necessarily mean that the information is necessarily inaccurate.

It should also be considered whether the findings of age/progesterone levels are generalizable across human races, since the research may have been conducted on a particular race but not others.

Of course, I am not claiming to know better than the good doctor since I am not a medical expert myself. Just pointing out a few things about the research that can be further explored.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Myself on February 15, 2010, 06:24:35 AM
My gynecologist prescribes progesterone. I will ask him for his opinion.
I used to believe it could help but now I am more convinced the other way around actually. I think the best help is getting rid of the testosterone creating couple and get rid of anti-androgens.

Progesterone would most likely not have beneficial effect on the breast size and could have a lot of negative effects on the person.

From knowing several people of different ages and knowing their regimes, I pretty much tend to believe you don't need progesterone and that progesterone can lead to weight gain and other problems.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Dana Lane on February 15, 2010, 06:52:55 AM
Quote from: Steffi on August 31, 2009, 02:24:59 PM
Here are Dr Curtis's comments on Progesterone.
I am concerned about my breast development and was considering starting to take it, but I do find his explanations and arguments against here very persuasive.
http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/Progesterone.pdf (http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/Progesterone.pdf)

- and I feel that his comments on Estrogen dosage are also interesting and worthy of consideration

I know this is an older post but thank you for posting this document! From this report progesterone obviously doesn't help with breast formation but one thing I really found useful was about not limiting your calories extremely. I have been trying to limit calories in hopes of getting rid of a little male tummy I have but maybe I need to just eat normal (maybe above normal for a while) to make sure my boobies has the fat they need. I have been on HRT for about 8 months so I guess I still have a ways to go.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Myself on February 15, 2010, 07:46:54 AM
Actually Muffin, a lot of what you said is only true because progesterone interferes with a lot of estrogen works.
Progesterone is semi androgenic and anti-estrogenic.

Estrogen promotes breast growth and by that can promote breast cancer.
Progesterones can restrict estrogen's work and by that halt growth and therefore stop cancer.

Some of the other things said are for when you stop producing hormones (menopause). Estrogen benefits a lot of those symptoms too.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: rejennyrated on February 15, 2010, 08:09:41 AM
To be honest discussions like this are rather futile because you can't cut a person in half and give one half Progesterone and the other half none.

With the greatest respect to Dr Curtis, who I'm sure has excellent credentials, a lot of what he said simply doesn't ring true in my experience. I've take P virtually all ofmy adult life, and for example, contrary to what he suggests, I find that if anything it improves my mood. I do have excellent development, but whether that would have happened anyway is impossible to prove one way or the other.

So I personally think that this is a rather individual decision for the individual endocrinologist and the individual patient to make on a person by person basis. I wish that everyone, including Dr Curtis, would stop trying to produce and impose a set of one size fits all rules because it simply doesn't help!
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Dana Lane on February 15, 2010, 09:17:27 AM
Quote from: Muffin on February 15, 2010, 07:27:06 AM

Post Merge: February 15, 2010, 07:31:05 AM

*cough*

I hope you don't have a cold! I suggest you eat some pie.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Cindy Stephens on February 15, 2010, 12:04:57 PM
Please note; some people swear by "natural" vrs synthetic forms of progesterone.  That is their prerogative.  I have trouble jumping on any band wagon.  It certainly seems odd to see that list of supposed "benefits" from natural progesterone. It somehow smacks of snake oil, general tonics, and amazing elixirs.  Why we could probably solve the health insurance crises if we all just started taking it!  The truth is that most people on progesterones are on the synthetic types.  So whenever a large study is done, it is based on synthetics. I still believe that the following quote from the official Prometrium web site is telling.
             "Unlike PROMETRIUM®, synthetic (man-made) progestins have chemical structures that are different from progesterone. In the image below, you can see how certain progestins are structurally different from your body's natural progesterone.
The clinical significance of this difference has not been determined. "
The quotes are mine.  The official Prometrium story doesn't seem to suggest any benefit!
I remember when Silicone breast implants were killing every woman in America.  Horror stories on Opra. HUGE lawsuits and teary eyed death bed statements.  Then it was shown that when you actually look at the numbers and statistics, they aren't any different whether or not your have or had silicone breast implants.  Just a scary bandwagon that everyone jumped on. Sorry, I just have a problem when people present personnel opinions as facts.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: tatiana on February 15, 2010, 12:18:41 PM
I like Progesterone for the reasons stated on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_%28male-to-female%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_%28male-to-female%29)

There are many reasons to take Progesterone. I like its benefits and the benefits seem to outweigh the risks for my body. YMMV!

*^_________________________^;;*

Totoro Smile!
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Dana Lane on February 18, 2010, 11:49:17 AM
Quote from: tatiana on February 15, 2010, 12:18:41 PM
I like Progesterone for the reasons stated on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_%28male-to-female%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_%28male-to-female%29)

There are many reasons to take Progesterone. I like its benefits and the benefits seem to outweigh the risks for my body. YMMV!

*^_________________________^;;*

Totoro Smile!

I am going to talk with my doctor about this soon. There do seem to be a lot of benefits listed there!

Post Merge: February 18, 2010, 12:09:37 PM

btw, here is something else I found. The site is down but the cache is still available.

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:EEa0XHH-BTcJ:www.t-vox.org/index.php%3Ftitle%3DHormones_:_Urban_Legends+Progestogens+mtf&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us (http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:EEa0XHH-BTcJ:www.t-vox.org/index.php%3Ftitle%3DHormones_:_Urban_Legends+Progestogens+mtf&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

Urban Legend #5: You don't need progesterone (MTF)

The Particulars
Many endocrinologists feel that an exogenous Progestogen is not a necessary for optimal MTF HRT.

The Truth
It is hardly groundbreaking to observe that progesterone plays an important role in natal-female breast development. Why would this not also apply to MTFs?

A study published in The American Journal Of Surgical Pathology (Am J Surg Pathol. 2000 Jan;24(1):74-80.) strongly suggest it does. The study involved comparing breast tissue from 14 MTFs undergoing HRT to that of two natal-males who had been chemically castrated as part of cancer treatment. Distinct histologic differences were found --

[...]Only in male-to-female transsexuals in whom progestative chemical castration is combined with feminising estrogen therapy will full acini and lobular formation occur. Hence, combined progestative anti-androgens and estrogens is necessary for the genetically male breast to mimic the natural histology of the female breast.[...]

Note that by 'progestative anti-androgens' they mean Cyprotone Acetate specifically, which is generally considered a relatively weak Progestogen (though a strong anti-androgen). Also note that the sample sizes were not what you'd call impressive. However, the study's results are hardly shocking, given that Progesterone is generally considered to be responsible for, among other things, lobular formation in the breast. They basically found what one would expect to find, that certain breast structures do not develop, or develop only poorly, in the absence of a Progestogen.
How important all of this is to optimal feminisation remains unclear and likely varies from individual to individual. What is clear is that Progestogens do play an important part in, among other things, proper breast development. Given that, and the lack of any compelling reason not to use them, it seems clear that a Progestogen should be a part of any optimal MTF HRT regimen.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: aurora17 on February 18, 2010, 03:17:32 PM
I'm taking micronized progesterone every day. The rules of this forum are not to give exact doses (a stupid rule which makes no sense at all IMHO, but anyway...), but I can probably disclose that the dose is in the range "pregnant woman level", confirmed by my blood analysis. ;)
I'm also taking cyproterone acetate in just enough large quantity to nullify (litteraly) my testosterone levels, and weekly IM injections of estradiol valerate (to a healthy, but in no way exagerated, dose).
My breasts are developing at a normal speed. And by normal, I mean, consistent with the growth speed of the breast of any natal woman. Only, the nipples too are developing quite nicely, no "mound on a mound" or "tubular breast" effect here, I get the normal looking appearance you might expect from a natal woman my age.
Bonus: although I'm losing weight, my breast size does not decrease. My mother says it's likelybecause it's mostly mammary gland. I tend to disagree a bit, knowing that breasts are mostly body fat lumps, but she is probably right, in that I can feel my boobs are not just mere fat accumulation.
So, as far as I'm concerned, among other benefits (on mood, health, etc) progesterone is promoting mormal mammary gland development, as opposed to estradiol alone which is, in my view, is doing only half the job.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Dana Lane on February 18, 2010, 03:22:05 PM
Quote from: aurora17 on February 18, 2010, 03:17:32 PM
I'm taking micronized progesterone every day. The rules of this forum are not to give exact doses (a stupid rule which makes no sense at all IMHO, but anyway...), but I can probably disclose that the dose is in the range "pregnant woman level", confirmed by my blood analysis. ;)
I'm also taking cyproterone acetate in just enough large quantity to nullify (litteraly) my testosterone levels, and weekly IM injections of estradiol valerate (to a healthy, but in no way exagerated, dose).
My breasts are developing at a normal speed. And by normal, I mean, consistent with the growth speed of the breast of any natal woman. Only, the nipples too are developing quite nicely, no "mound on a mound" or "tubular breast" effect here, I get the normal looking appearance you might expect from a natal woman my age.
Bonus: although I'm losing weight, my breast size does not decrease. My mother says it's likelybecause it's mostly mammary gland. I tend to disagree a bit, knowing that breasts are mostly body fat lumps, but she is probably right, in that I can feel my boobs are not just mere fat accumulation.
So, as far as I'm concerned, among other benefits (on mood, health, etc) progesterone is promoting mormal mammary gland development, as opposed to estradiol alone which is, in my view, is doing only half the job.

Thanks for sharing this information! And I kind of understand what you mean about the dosage ban. The information is all over the place so anyone wanting to self medicate can find the information but to me it would be helpful if dosages could be discussed due to the fact it may help someone find out they have a stupid doctor who is either under medicating or over medicating. Who knows, maybe one day!
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Flan on February 18, 2010, 03:36:13 PM
until the meds that make up HRT are over the counter in most of the world, (read: the US) the "no doses" rule will remain to cover (Susan's) ass legally. (people will blame anyone to get jackpot justice these days)
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Dana Lane on February 18, 2010, 03:51:26 PM
Quote from: FlanHusky on February 18, 2010, 03:36:13 PM
until the meds that make up HRT are over the counter in most of the world, (read: the US) the "no doses" rule will remain to cover (Susan's) ass legally. (people will blame anyone to get jackpot justice these days)

I am all for covering Susan's ass!
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Janet_Girl on February 18, 2010, 03:52:03 PM
Ladies,
I will take this time to remind everyone as to the rules regarding HRT and a couple of others.

Quote2. Any attempts to stage protests, dispute the site policy, the TOS/rules, or actions of the staff; in the public areas of this site will not be tolerated and will result in your removal. If you have issues I suggest you contact susan@susans.org and not bring your issues into the public spaces on this website. For the proper way to raise issues see term #20 below.

Quote8. The discussion of hormone replacement therapy(HRT) and it's medications are permitted, with the following limitations:

A. Advocating for or against a specific medication or combinations of medications for personal gain is strictly prohibited.
B. Discussing the means to acquire HRT medications without a prescription, and self medication without a doctors care is prohibited.
C. Discussing dosages is strongly discouraged to prevent information obtained on this site from being used to self medicate.

We can not in good conscience condone the self administering of these medications. Not only may self medication be illegal, but HRT medications can cause serious health problems, and many have the potential for life-threatening side effects that can only be detected and prevented with proper medical supervision.

Quote20. The staff of this site exist to provide support to our members and visitors and to provide a safe environment by enforcing the TOS and rules of this web site and chat server. If you disagree with their actions or in regards to a specific situation feel free to contact Susan at her email address susan@susans.org with the details of the situation. She will review your complaint and take any corrective action that may be required by the situation. All user complaints and issues are taken seriously and investigated thoroughly.

Yes the net has all kinds of DIY HRT, but it can and does take lives.  That is why we don't do it.  We do not wish anyone to take steps that cost lives.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: V M on February 18, 2010, 04:37:33 PM
Agree, disagree or be indifferent...The site rules are there for a reason

I for one am very thankful that a FREE site such as this one exists and will gladly do my best to follow the given rules as best as possible
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: girl_ashley on February 19, 2010, 05:15:30 PM
*saving thread for offline viewing before it gets taken down*
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Dana Lane on February 19, 2010, 08:39:46 PM
There were two people (me being one of them) who mentioned hormone doses and mods stepped in and set things straight. I see no reason to continue discussing that part of this thread but maybe I am alone. I am really just interested in what progesterone can do to help me or hurt me. Thanks
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Anne Selene on February 27, 2010, 03:43:01 AM
I did not read all this but when it comes to P we mean P4 which is natural Progesterone and not synthetic versions of it.

One thing we must remember is that genetic woman has good hair growth when they are young and far less when they get older is due to P4 and not to any of the other Estrogens. So ONE important factor is that P4 is the most perfect antiandrogen available and it blocks DHT better than any other medications.

If you really want to test these facts just do this; Talk to your Doctor about Utrogestan. Measure your T, P4 and DHT by your doctor. Take one capsule before bedtime (don't eat anything at least 2h before). On the 10th day you stop taking Utrogestan and then repeat your blood tests. You will then see something unbelievable.

I've done this several times as part of my HRT and for a study made by my endocrinologist and it's clear that P4 should be part of any HRT.

For breast growth I'm not so sure that P4 works because we can't conclude that we really got Progesterone receptors in M2F breasts so argumentation for taking P4 or not should solely be based on if it's the best DHT blocker or not because that is easy to prove and ANYBODY can so easily test and prove these facts BUT be aware that P4 is also an anti-oestrogen agent so if you take P4 also your E2 will drop and that's why you should not take this more then 10 days of the month.

Hope you like these facts ...

Dosage removed
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Muffin on February 27, 2010, 05:05:29 AM
I agree with most of that Anne but I've also read that you're not suppose to cycle progesterone while pre-op and that progesterone makes the estrogen receptors more sensitive so you don't need as much estrogen while on P.
I think this is the problem there is so much conflicting stories out there... which is true??
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Anne Selene on February 27, 2010, 06:30:18 AM
Exactly Muffin, in fact I think the only way something becomes anti-estrogenic is by blocking ER1 and ER2 so that's what P4 does in some way as T-blockers blocks T.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Muffin on February 27, 2010, 06:53:46 AM
But would the sensitising of the receptors balance that out?? I haven't heard of taking P to lower over all E levels.
I've heard Prometrium to be the best at doing what P is suppose to do and nothing more.. being bioidentical.
Title: Re: Does Progesterone Increase Breast Size?
Post by: Anne Selene on February 27, 2010, 07:09:55 AM
Well it's more easy if we say P4 then we know what we are talking about as P can be anything. Prometrium and Utrogestan is all "bioidentical" micronized P4 so it's made easier for the body to process.

I think and this is my opinion that taking P4 at an early stage might benefit breast developments as people tends to take too high doses of oestrogen which in fact would stall breast developments too early and they might end up with too small breasts. Small amount of oestrogen to start with would therefore benefit breast developments and should not be increased before every 6 months or so. To much too quickly might also damage both ER1 and ER2 but again this is just my opinion.