Hello,
I'm on androcur for about 3 months and I'm going to start E in about two weeks. I'm really excited that I found a doctor to help me and monitor my health. I want almost all the hormone effects but I want to minimize or at least control my breast growth for social reasons. I do not want them to look bigger than a male gynecomastia. I still live with my parents, have a good job, and I'm afraid that I'm gonna have problems if my breast is going to be enlarged to much.
I found that there are some drugs that sit on the estrogen receptors on breast only and prevent estrogen to get into those receptors. As a result the breast wont grow until the drugs are stopped. These drugs are used to minimize the breast cancer possibility and male gynecomastia. Does anyone know anything about this? I'm going to ask my doc anyway...
Hmm do you know what they are exactly? It sounds a little fishy to me, I haven't really heard of such things like that before, but I could be wrong. I know that if it's just raw estrogen and an anti-androgen, it doesn't matter how small your dose, your breast development will happen according to your genetics, just the duration it takes may be the only thing that varies.
Quote from: findingreason on October 13, 2009, 02:09:29 AM
Hmm do you know what they are exactly? It sounds a little fishy to me, I haven't really heard of such things like that before, but I could be wrong. I know that if it's just raw estrogen and an anti-androgen, it doesn't matter how small your dose, your breast development will happen according to your genetics, just the duration it takes may be the only thing that varies.
These drugs are categorized like "estrogen receptor modulator". I found the info on wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamoxifen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamoxifen)
I guess that there are people out there who want to start HRT because they have gender dysphoria etc, but also want to hide some very noticeable signs like breast in cases like at work and family.
Hon it kind of sounds like you're not ready to get on HRT all of the way. Pretty soon ,yes, you will (for most ppl) start looking more noticably fem and if you're not ready for that then....??? Your face is going to change too and there's no special pill to block that. Just remember that whatever it is you're scared of probably isn't going to be nearly as bad as you imagine. If you really must...sports bras do wonders for probably months if not a year into when the breasts are growing, for many folks. After that is binding but that's kind of rediculous.
Quote from: aubrey on October 13, 2009, 04:04:29 AM
Hon it kind of sounds like you're not ready to get on HRT all of the way. Pretty soon ,yes, you will (for most ppl) start looking more noticably fem and if you're not ready for that then....??? Your face is going to change too and there's no special pill to block that. Just remember that whatever it is you're scared of probably isn't going to be nearly as bad as you imagine. If you really must...sports bras do wonders for probably months if not a year into when the breasts are growing, for many folks. After that is binding but that's kind of rediculous.
I know what you are saying...I really want all those changes, I want to look less masculine and more feminine, but I guess that breasts will tell exactly what I'm doing. I do not think that my face will change so much, although I want to, in a way everyone will understand that I'm on HRT.
I just told my endocrinologist that I want some feminization but I also want to control it like passing to a maintenance dosage, no further feminization.
Honey, breasts or no breasts, you'll likely start looking more female than male before people think you have breasts.
The growth isnt that fast or obvious, and if it becomes an issue, as it did for me for about a month before i went full time, wear a sports bra, or ace bandage to just lightly compress them and reduce the apearance till you can?
Quote from: mantonis on October 13, 2009, 05:34:57 AM
I know what you are saying...I really want all those changes, I want to look less masculine and more feminine, but I guess that breasts will tell exactly what I'm doing. I do not think that my face will change so much, although I want to, in a way everyone will understand that I'm on HRT.
I just told my endocrinologist that I want some feminization but I also want to control it like passing to a maintenance dosage, no further feminization.
There is no real way to predict breast growth, some experience marked breast growth while others do not. Generally speaking it is thought that the older one transitions the less breast growth experienced. However, having said that, as was mentioned earlier it does seem that you are not ready to start HRT. Personally I feel that HRT should only be started with the recommendation of a therapist who has diagnosed the patient with GID, and then only started when the patient is ready or close to starting their RLT. But then that's just my opinion.
Why would you want to start HRT if you are not ready to accept the changes. Granted there are some who state that once they started HRT they experienced a sense of well being, a sense of euphoria but many also state that these feelings are psychosomatic. The purpose of HRT is to change the body and if you are not ready to accept all the changes then you are not ready to transition.
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Quote from: mantonis on October 13, 2009, 05:34:57 AM
I know what you are saying...I really want all those changes, I want to look less masculine and more feminine, but I guess that breasts will tell exactly what I'm doing. I do not think that my face will change so much, although I want to, in a way everyone will understand that I'm on HRT.
I just told my endocrinologist that I want some feminization but I also want to control it like passing to a maintenance dosage, no further feminization.
You would be surprised how many gradual changes people will miss (up to a point), especially if they see you nearly every day. I would definitely add another "caution" if you feel you are ready to start changing your body chemistry, but not for people to notice the physical changes. I wear a sports bra most days or a cami under my (male) work clothes so that my body is more uniformly shaped and the changes will be more subtle to people at work. Since I plan on coming out at work last, and only just before going full-time, I don't need people to comment too soon - they already know
something is up, but it would be rude to ask out-right what is going on with me.
Your experience may vary, but taking hormones didn't alleviate my dysphoria, it made me feel good in a "yay, progress!" kind of way, but it's just making it somewhat more likely I will be seen as female...which is what does help with the dysphoria.
Quite correct MGKelly...
For me, the biggest thing hormones did, was physical: They rock frankly.
Mentally most things were psycosomatic... a calming, i felt less stressed... mostly due to progress. Hrt's only real effects mentally are an emotional broadening. It wont CHANGE your emotions, it wont make you cry randomly, but what it will do, is make every emotion you feel, more colourful. If you're sad... you'll cry, if you;re happy, you'll know it (clap your hands! (Sorry ><)) if you're angry, you'll boil. It provides a certain emotional stability one you';re used to it, HRT will not turn you into a woman mentally, just give you the tools for her to work properly with.
Quote from: Ladyrider on October 13, 2009, 06:34:14 AM
There is no real way to predict breast growth, some experience marked breast growth while others do not. Generally speaking it is thought that the older one transitions the less breast growth experienced. However, having said that, as was mentioned earlier it does seem that you are not ready to start HRT. Personally I feel that HRT should only be started with the recommendation of a therapist who has diagnosed the patient with GID, and then only started when the patient is ready or close to starting their RLT. But then that's just my opinion.
Why would you want to start HRT if you are not ready to accept the changes. Granted there are some who state that once they started HRT they experienced a sense of well being, a sense of euphoria but many also state that these feelings are psychosomatic. The purpose of HRT is to change the body and if you are not ready to accept all the changes then you are not ready to transition.
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Honestly speaking the therapist requirement for HRT is a bit rediculas. The US is moving towards an informed consent model, and honestly speaking younger trans folks, are better off because of this. They don't have to deal with the absurdly high cost of therapy, or the GID diagnosis (which is rediculas in the first place). Honestly speaking the fewer therapists involved in the process the better. The entire SOC gatekeeper system was poor at best and scared more people away than encouraging them to transition early, which is what many people should have done in the first place. Informed consent is alot better model to follow for HRT, and one that does not involve a therapist.
I really do not think you are ready of you can't accept all of the consequences of HRT. But this is a judgment only a qualified therapist can make. The reason many people take them are precisely the reason you state against them. But yes, it will definitely affect you in other ways as well. Make sure you talk this out VERY WELL with your counselor.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Informed consent is a bad idea in a way.... people arent 'scared' by therapists, people are scared by the whineing of some trans people that the system felt were unsuitable, or plain not trans.
If you are trans, they will give you hrt with therapy, its pretty cut and thrust. Therapy is SO required with transition and hrt, its the most vital part. If someone wants some of hrt's effects, but not all, then the therapist is even more vital as the person needs to talk about why and what this is for and about. Informed consent access to hrt and srs, (its a possible second) will only increase the number of regrets and detransitions that occur... It will NOT help our cause.
Quote from: sweetstars on October 13, 2009, 09:22:25 AM
Honestly speaking the therapist requirement for HRT is a bit rediculas. The US is moving towards an informed consent model, and honestly speaking younger trans folks, are better off because of this. They don't have to deal with the absurdly high cost of therapy, or the GID diagnosis (which is rediculas in the first place). Honestly speaking the fewer therapists involved in the process the better. The entire SOC gatekeeper system was poor at best and scared more people away than encouraging them to transition early, which is what many people should have done in the first place. Informed consent is alot better model to follow for HRT, and one that does not involve a therapist.
One should remember that the recommendations/guidelines (As that's all they are.) outlined in the SOC are there for the protection of the patients and the medical practitioners who are or maybe involved in the process. I know that many of us who have traveled this road thought that they are/were in the best position to diagnose themselves and recommend their own course of treatment, however the SOC are there as confirmation of this. Wouldn't anyone want to know why they feel the way they do? Could there be something else causing these feelings etc. It boggles the mind why folks are so scared of the system. I agree there have been cases where the medical system has thrown up hurdles to some but I would have to think that for the most part that that those of us who have transitioned, did so through the present system.
QuoteIf you are trans, they will give you hrt with therapy, its pretty cut and thrust.
- yep... pretty much.
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It is truly a "Pandora's Box" scenario. It is either open (you procede with hormonal changes) or it is closed (you do Not procede). That is one of the big things I accepted by going to a therapist.
As for breast growth, I started transitioning socially at work long before chemicals started showing outward signs.
I know a couple of biographies are about these people who had a great career and family for 20 years, and thus had More financial stability to transition. Not every life is like those stories.
Proceding with your life does mean consequences-good, bad, indifferent.
Are you ready for those?
Quote from: Becca on October 13, 2009, 02:00:09 PM
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It's not our place to question your readiness for hrt. Breasts are one of the best parts of it though, and they aren't that hard to hide if you were to want to. You aren't going to grow a pair of dd cups in your first few months, so really your worries are unfounded. I moved into a B recently, after 8 months, and the difference between a sports bra and regular bra is marked. The regular bra makes them look clearly boobish, while the sports bras have been retired because they subdue them more (they're designed to). Operating on the assumption that you ARE ready, and that this question is based more on fear of the unknown, if anything it sounds like a good motivator to stay on track. You know in advance you have a year-ish before the boobs are unhidable, so it could serve as motivation to begin socially transitioning and move toward full time because once you start you will definitely not want to stop.
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I'm going to disagree with a lot of this as it seems to be putting the cart before the horse so to speak. Growing breasts should not be the motivator behind transition in fact a lot of women have little or no breast growth, and likewise wanting to grow breasts should not be a motivator either. While the person may be ready, how about the persons workplace, are they ready? does management know what their employee is intending? While hiding breast may be easy, one has to remember that hiding the bra, whatever type has to be considered as well. A man with obvious signs that they are wearing female underwear will cause more trouble than it's worth.
Transition should be planned ahead of time and there is lots of literature on this site to help in that regard. Growing breasts does not make one a woman, and is "One" of the issues a person who is going to transition needs to consider. It's for this very reason that many pshrinks propose RLT before HRT.
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I'm going to have to agree with Ladyrider here. Not to be a wet blanket, but if you haven't even told your parents whom you live with and who will notice breasts or no, you really don't sound ready for HRT. HRT is a serious responsibility and personal commitment.
Quote from: Ladyrider on October 13, 2009, 03:18:54 PM
I'm going to disagree with a lot of this as it seems to be putting the cart before the horse so to speak. Growing breasts should not be the motivator behind transition in fact a lot of women have little or no breast growth, and likewise wanting to grow breasts should not be a motivator either. While the person may be ready, how about the persons workplace, are they ready? does management know what their employee is intending? While hiding breast may be easy, one has to remember that hiding the bra, whatever type has to be considered as well. A man with obvious signs that they are wearing female underwear will cause more trouble than it's worth.
Transition should be planned ahead of time and there is lots of literature on this site to help in that regard. Growing breasts does not make one a woman, and is "One" of the issues a person who is going to transition needs to consider. It's for this very reason that many pshrinks propose RLT before HRT.
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Quote from: mantonis on October 13, 2009, 01:55:21 AM
Hello,
I'm on androcur for about 3 months and I'm going to start E in about two weeks. I'm really excited that I found a doctor to help me and monitor my health. I want almost all the hormone effects but I want to minimize or at least control my breast growth for social reasons. I do not want them to look bigger than a male gynecomastia. I still live with my parents, have a good job, and I'm afraid that I'm gonna have problems if my breast is going to be enlarged to much.
I found that there are some drugs that sit on the estrogen receptors on breast only and prevent estrogen to get into those receptors. As a result the breast wont grow until the drugs are stopped. These drugs are used to minimize the breast cancer possibility and male gynecomastia. Does anyone know anything about this? I'm going to ask my doc anyway...
I have the same desires. Hope we can find something
To be honest, breast growth is only ONE visible effect of hrt.
To be honest, I had many people comment when I was on hrt, and most comments were not breast related...
'Does your face look different?'
'Are your shoulders narrower? (Muscle)'
'You have a really girly bum'
'Wow, your skin is so soft'
I had pretty much top to toe visible change within a year on hrt, by 6 months, i went from androgynous, to female, with difficulty to pass as male.
At a young enough age, hrt really does change a LOT.... controling breast growth will only not help that much, but if you do, you'll be disapointed by being flat chested later on.
Quote from: The None Blonde on October 30, 2009, 01:50:55 AM
To be honest, breast growth is only ONE visible effect of hrt.
To be honest, I had many people comment when I was on hrt, and most comments were not breast related...
'Does your face look different?'
'Are your shoulders narrower? (Muscle)'
'You have a really girly bum'
'Wow, your skin is so soft'
I had pretty much top to toe visible change within a year on hrt, by 6 months, i went from androgynous, to female, with difficulty to pass as male.
At a young enough age, hrt really does change a LOT.... controling breast growth will only not help that much, but if you do, you'll be disapointed by being flat chested later on.
I would love to see those effects to me to, but I do not think that you are to going to look like another person anyway.
At what age did you start hrt? I'm 29 and I'm taking androcur for about 3 months, I reached castration Testosterone levels now and I'm going to start estrogen patches in a few days. My skin did change a lot, it was oily with big pores and now has turned to normal/dry with tiny pores. Some people who knew I had oily and problematic skin, notice the difference and comment it with complements.
I heard from others that if you are on hrt and still on "male" mode (you know, no make up, casual clothes etc) people think that you just look much younger because your face skin has changed...
I think that If I were a woman I would still like to have small breast anyway.
Since breast growth is commonly the first sign of hrt, do you think that breast growth shows how much feminine your whole body would be? I mean that If your breast development is not satisfactory would this mean that the whole transition like hips, face, fat distribution wont be satisfactory?
Oh, I'm sorry for my English....
I started hrt just after my 19th birthday. With regards to the apearance thing... For me, Even with jeans and hoodies, and no makeup, i still looked female after around 6 months... the changes were quite profound and welcomed, though at first, within like 2 months or so, i did look a lot younger lol, like a 16yo boy, then androgynous at 3-4, then female by 6. It wasnt as much the breast growth, but my manerisms coupled with the slim less muscluar frame, facial apearance and hair, hrt did quite a bit to my face... the skin too was nice, but im not sure if it helped as much more than just being really nice now.
I think the first sign of hrt, is possibly muscle loss, and skin before breast GROWTH, first sign is imo nipple change.
The rest; Well, breast growth isnt linked to the others really. Some people will just come out with small breasts... i've seen other girls with broad flaring hips and tiny boobs... its just genetics... then theres my best friend, 30DD with skinny hips... everyone's different. With M2fs, i guess it may have a vague link... age, hrt receptiveness and genetics, but honestly? i'm not 100%
:)
Quote from: The None Blonde on October 30, 2009, 05:14:58 AM
I started hrt just after my 19th birthday. With regards to the apearance thing... For me, Even with jeans and hoodies, and no makeup, i still looked female after around 6 months... the changes were quite profound and welcomed, though at first, within like 2 months or so, i did look a lot younger lol, like a 16yo boy, then androgynous at 3-4, then female by 6. It wasnt as much the breast growth, but my manerisms coupled with the slim less muscluar frame, facial apearance and hair, hrt did quite a bit to my face... the skin too was nice, but im not sure if it helped as much more than just being really nice now.
I think the first sign of hrt, is possibly muscle loss, and skin before breast GROWTH, first sign is imo nipple change.
The rest; Well, breast growth isnt linked to the others really. Some people will just come out with small breasts... i've seen other girls with broad flaring hips and tiny boobs... its just genetics... then theres my best friend, 30DD with skinny hips... everyone's different. With M2fs, i guess it may have a vague link... age, hrt receptiveness and genetics, but honestly? i'm not 100%
:)
FYI,, Im TS all my life and now 60 years old. Been on HRT about 4 months. Sore and larger nipples came at about 3 months.
What else the estrogen (vivelle patch) did is wonderful!!! My mother took DES. I think my brain circuitry operates much better with some estrogen in there. My memory, ability to focus, stay calm, and a host of other things improved dramatically!!! I Love what it has done for me. Saved my career I think. My life has been fantastic up to now, but going to be orders of magnitude above that from here out. Even if I had to stay in boy mode forever, I would never give up the estrogen. I can only wonder how I may have done with it all along. My ability to reason, think ahead, and solve problems is improved so much. I think your brain has to be set up in the first place to benefit from the estrogen. Mine was via the huge dose of estrogen through the DES in my first 9 months. Too bad it took 60 years to figure it out.
Quote from: mantonis on October 13, 2009, 01:55:21 AM
Hello,
I'm on androcur for about 3 months and I'm going to start E in about two weeks. I'm really excited that I found a doctor to help me and monitor my health. I want almost all the hormone effects but I want to minimize or at least control my breast growth for social reasons. I do not want them to look bigger than a male gynecomastia. I still live with my parents, have a good job, and I'm afraid that I'm gonna have problems if my breast is going to be enlarged to much.
I found that there are some drugs that sit on the estrogen receptors on breast only and prevent estrogen to get into those receptors. As a result the breast wont grow until the drugs are stopped. These drugs are used to minimize the breast cancer possibility and male gynecomastia. Does anyone know anything about this? I'm going to ask my doc anyway...
I think you have a point. I've been on HRT and androcur for many years and I haven't got any proper breast growth. I would be interested in finding out more about getting the reverse effect of what you are looking for! I want them big! big! big!
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on November 03, 2009, 07:49:26 AM
I think you have a point. I've been on HRT and androcur for many years and I haven't got any proper breast growth. I would be interested in finding out more about getting the reverse effect of what you are looking for! I want them big! big! big!
I heard that it is not the same for every person but if you look at your mom you will gain breasts like her or the most common a bit smaller.
That's an... excuse the pun, old wives tale.
Breast growth is geneticly linked, If you were to start hrt at puberty, you would roughly develop the same size breasts as your female relatives. However, the later you start, and the lower the levels of human growth hormones present in your body, the less likely the puberty rate of growth will be. You may get swelling, and a-b, but its unlikely to go higher naturally, after 30 ( I say unlikely, not not)
The younger one starts hrt, the more problem breast growth and visible change will be.
Quote from: mantonis on November 04, 2009, 01:47:42 AM
I heard that it is not the same for every person but if you look at your mom you will gain breasts like her or the most common a bit smaller.
My mums breast are very big, mine are really tiny so that theory doesn't hold water...
Quote from: The None Blonde on November 04, 2009, 04:50:45 AM
That's an... excuse the pun, old wives tale.
Breast growth is geneticly linked, If you were to start hrt at puberty, you would roughly develop the same size breasts as your female relatives. However, the later you start, and the lower the levels of human growth hormones present in your body, the less likely the puberty rate of growth will be. You may get swelling, and a-b, but its unlikely to go higher naturally, after 30 ( I say unlikely, not not)
The younger one starts hrt, the more problem breast growth and visible change will be.
That's a more true analogy Non Blonde....and presented well.
while I disagree with you taking those hormones - this is a one way street, you need to know you want to go there for life ...
I will comment on breast growth (your question). Even at the relatively young age of 29 you are unlikely to get a "lot" of breast growth. Very few MTF do. Probably up to about a "A" cup. Easily hidden in normal clothes. Go read in the FTM section for tips about how to hide your breasts, should you get any growth. The great truth is that you won't know what will happen until you do it, BUT that is not a good reason to "try and see". Remember, if you get more than you want, you may have to have surgery to remove some tissue. Stopping hormones doesn't make 'em go away.
Please, seriously, consider backing off the HRT till you are sure you want to transition. HRT is not an ala' carte menu and it is also a serious commitment (and dangerous).
very few m2fs get more than an a cup naturally?
huh?
Quote from: The None Blonde on November 07, 2009, 07:03:19 AM
very few m2fs get more than an a cup naturally?
huh?
You can say that again...my problem exactely!
um, in 3 years of HRT growth, im a small C cup.... 'probably about an A' doesnt seem too accurate.
Quote from: The None Blonde on November 08, 2009, 11:07:43 AM
um, in 3 years of HRT growth, im a small C cup.... 'probably about an A' doesnt seem too accurate.
You can just about see mine after 10 years of HRT. Strangely this week after all these years they have been hurting again like they are growing again.
Not really really skinny are you?
Even with natal females that reduces a lot of breast tissue and fat.
I guess its a case of results may vary.... Genetics, age, and luck.
Quote from: The None Blonde on November 09, 2009, 05:18:21 AM
Not really really skinny are you?
Even with natal females that reduces a lot of breast tissue and fat.
I guess its a case of results may vary.... Genetics, age, and luck.
who me or the original poster?
I guess that it means you.
Hey mantonis :)
I was/am in the same situation you are in now. I also started HRT knowing i won't be able to transition in the next few years. I am now over a year (14mo, to be precise) on HRT, and aside from "gynecomastia issue" i've never had any problems. I found sport bras to be very helpful. Don't do anything like "breats binding" or other stuff you might read at FtM forums cuz it is harmful especially to developing breast. And after all, i dont have large breasts (as of yet) and i don't know will i ever have them; only time will tell, but remeber full breast development takes 3-5, according to my endo.
So aside form brests, beeing the most noticeable HRT effect, there are many other as well that are very noticeable to me but less noticeable to others, unless they take a closer look but i think M2F HRT is probably the least thing that will come to theri mind when they see it, and maybe wonder why is it so.
On the other hand i am 21 now, and many other guys my age may still look very boyish, so i get with it well. Also, i am quite tall, 6'1'', not small framed, so those things that will be disadvanatage in the future are maybe helping me not stand out that much. If you have some more questions i'd be happy to help you :)