Topic: Androgyne and HRT

[Melanie Anne]

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Ok, so with introductions out of the way, I would like to ask some questions to the members of this community. Perhaps I should wait a little longer before posting my own topic, but these questions have been on my mind for months.

A brief disclaimer: I understand that "YMMV" and that genetics and seemingly fate have a lot to do with the final outcome. I think I am looking for personal experiences as well as a more general "is it possible" kind of thing rather than "is this what will happen". I also realize that answers to my questions may lay in various other threads, but my scouring has so far only given me partial answers. One last note before I proceed to my questions - I consider myself an androgyne and do not desire to completely transition. I am a biological male who identifies more with the female gender but do not want to completely abandon my male side. As such, I want to add some "femaleness" to both my mind and body.

So, my questions are concerning HRT. My hopes at this point are to begin a low-level (not full transitional level) regimen of HRT after meeting with a gender therapist. Seeing as how I have no particular aversion to my genitalia and my wife and I have a great sex life, would I be able to maintain use of my penis while on HRT? Has anyone gone down this road before? Also, my wife and I are considering another child which we would hope to accomplish prior to beginning HRT - but would a low dose mean certain sterility? If we manage to get pregnant before HRT, I would consider this more of a bonus than anything, but does that mean my wife wouldn't need to be on the pill anymore or should we still be concerned about accidental pregnancies?

My next question concerns breast growth. I've seen a lot of personal accounts from people that are a year or less into HRT and I know development doesn't stop at that point. I plan on continuing to work in male mode and I'm concerned that if I end up with a C-cup, that could be a little tricky. If I take genetics into account, my mother's side has women who are all a little larger overall and so naturally have larger breasts. My father's side has woman that are more my size overall (I'm skinny) and are pretty small breasted. I think that means I can expect to be smaller, but I would just like to hear what other people's experiences are. Maybe even some biological females could chime in to help me overcome my fears by telling me how they hide theirs.

Last question (sorry for another long post). What effects of HRT were noticed first? I think this is going to be a very subjective question but I am more interested in psychological changes and view the physical changes as a bonus. Did you start to feel different inside before noticing any physical effects? How would you describe those feelings? I think I've read where some people know right away that HRT is not right for them while others know right away that it absolutely is right for them. I've also read about people feeling a sense of calm, a more even tempered personality and just an overall better outlook on life. Is this how you would describe your experiences?

Sorry, I'm going to throw one more question out there. Discovering that I am an androgyne has already given me a lot of comfort, but I feel the need to actually "do" something about it. Just knowing in my mind isn't enough. If HRT isn't right for me, what kind of changes have you made in your lives to feel more congruent with what's in your mind?

Thank you all again for providing such a caring, open place with lots of knowledge to share.

[Sarah Louise]

I think hormones could be a dangerous path for you.  It doesn't really sound like your ready for the effects of female hormones.

No one can promise you that you will maintain erections after being on hormones for a length of time.  No one can promise you what size your breasts will grow to.  No one can promise you that you will not become sterile.

These are all things that can/will happen on estrogen.  If both you and your wife are not on board with that, I would wait.

[riven1]

I am bigender, but I started out thinking that I was an androgyne (and they continue to let me hang around here LOL....). I'm also on a low dose HRT regimen. I want to share my experiences so that you know what you will be potentially be facing if you go this route.

My dysphoria in girl mode was driving me crazy - there is a member here that described it as a noise in her head that she could not escape, and i had the same noise as well as repetitive, incessant thoughts about girl stuff. It was GID, and it was driving me insane. Since i'm bigender the feelings switched on and off at random times as i flipped between boy mode and girl mode.

I felt results within 2-3 weeks of starting HRT. The noise and incessant thoughts stopped dead cold. The physical changes started within a few months, and they were the classic ones - fat redistribution, small boobs, etc. Those were the side effects i was willing to accept in order to get the sense of calmness that i was missing, and being bigender i didn't really mind them. And i am far more emotional now - for example, there are TV shows and movies that i simply can't watch without tearing up. The uncontrollable flip flopping between boy and girl mode became something that i have some control over now, which is nice.

The ability to father children - i've had mine and i'm past that now LOL..... but the equipment still works, sorta. It's hard to start and often stalls out. It's also become a zero emissions device if you follow my drift. That happened within 8 months. I have to warm it up now for quite a while before i hit the road. The feeling that i get is also the one described by many - a full on body experience and not just a localized sensation.

I've been told that HRT can either have the calming effect that it had on me, or it might be the thing that triggers a high speed toboggan ride toward transition, so that's something you might consider.

I like that you plan to talk with a therapist to help you sort this out.

[Jamie D]

Melanie - Sarah Louise is right.  Hormones, especially estrogen for the MtF, MtA, or AtF, are a big step, especially for a young androgyne in a hetrosexual, child-bearing relationship.  You can't always predict the exact effects they are going to have.

And you are gong to find it very difficult, as I have, to locate a medical/psychological team that endorses low-dose HRT for the androgyne.

There are plenty of ways to feminize your male self, short of using estrogens (of any dose).  You will come across these on the boards from time to time, and in the archived threads.

If you do go the hormone (and/or hormone-blocker route), you will need to seriously consider sperm banking.  HRT can leave you irreversibly sterile in a few short months.  It may also leave you impotent.

With that said, you wanted some real life experience.  I am a male-bodied, bigendered, bisexual, androgyne, with "persistant pubertal gynecomastia" (meaning I have had moobs since I was a young teen and that my natural hormone levels were not in the normal male range).  Last year, I started seeing a "family therapist" locally, because there are no true gender therapists near me.  She wasn't very versed in trans issues (perhaps more in gay and lesbian issues), and she wasn't really on board with a GID diagnosis, but she recognized that I had some level of gender dysphoria, and I was able to convince her and a sympathetic GP that lose dose HRT might be worth a trial.  Which is not exactly "by the book."  I get a liver function panel and blood work done every 3-4 months.

I had already taken Aldactone (spironolactone) as a diuretic for a couple of years because of hypertensive heart disease, so I went on the lowest dose 17 beta estradiol patch.  (Interestingly, my cardiologist took me off Aldactone when he increased the dosage on another potassium-sparing ACE inhibitor.)  The first thing I noticed on the patch was that my nagging dysphoria more or less vanished.  The second thing I noticed was the renewal and expansion of the breast buds I had for 40 years.  I am still ambivalent about my current state of "blossoming," and I don't feel ready to jump in with both feet.  Consequently, I have sought out another therapist.

This is somewhat atypical, as far as I know, but androgynes seem to be the trouble-makers and envelope pushers in the trangender world.  My low dose HRT regimen has helped in some respects, and has had unexpectedly quick complications in another.

[Melanie Anne]

Okay - so yeah. I understand that this is not something to undertake lightly (that's why I'm doing all this research, discussing things with my wife, asking questions here and going to see a gender therapist). I understand that I can't pick and choose the effects I want. I want to make an informed decision and as such I'm asking what other people's experiences have been. If I decide to go this route, I'll deal with the consequences of things I may not like in exchange for hopefully a whole bunch of things that improve my quality of life.

Rivan, I can totally relate to the noise in the head thing. I am encouraged to hear that the noise stopped for you. You describe the "side effects" that you were willing to accept for that sense of calm and that is exactly the way I feel. I don't view all of the physical changes as negative and the ones I do are why I'm here asking questions so I can weigh the pros and cons. Of course all of this is even before talking to a therapist so I'll be even more prepared when I go there.

The sterility isn't really an issue for me. If we decide to have another child, we'll do that before starting this treatment. Believe me, it won't take long. Two pregnancies each within the first month of my wife going off the pill, so I don't think that will be a problem. I was more asking I guess how sure I can be that I will be sterile. I know this stuff can make "bad" swimmers as well as no swimmers and I would hate to have my wife stop taking the pill and then we end up with an accidental pregnancy that might have complications.

Thanks for the replies so far. I'm still hoping to hear some more personal experiences...

The ability to father children - i've had mine and i'm past that now LOL..... but the equipment still works, sorta. It's hard to start and often stalls out. It's also become a zero emissions device if you follow my drift. That happened within 8 months. I have to warm it up now for quite a while before i hit the road. The feeling that i get is also the one described by many - a full on body experience and not just a localized sensation.

Oh yeah, also wanted to add that my wife and I discovered my ability for female orgasms a while ago. Since I started on this self-discovery tour, we've been consciously making love like two woman (even though this is really what was going on all along). The only difference is what I have between my legs and she really enjoys that part of it. That's why I'm concerned with the equipment working. If it stops working - well then we'll just find some other creative things to do.

[Melanie Anne]

Wow. Thank you so much! This is exactly the kind of information I have been hoping to get. The clinic I'm going to has the following on their website:

"What does Trans* mean?

We’ve used the asterisk symbol (*) here to indicate a variable condition, and reflect a broad range of gender identities and experiences.  We are using Trans* as an umbrella term that includes anyone identifying along the transgender spectrum, those who consider themselves bi-gendered or multi-gendered, as well as people who do not identify with any labels."

They also say this about the first appointment:

"In this session a psychosocial history is taken with special focus on gender identity development and role expression through the person’s life, including past transition experiences.  Additionally, Informed Consent requires an understanding of the risks and benefits of beginning hormone therapy.  As such, part of this session is educational in nature"

I think this place will be perfect for me. I think they'll help me decide what is right for me based on what I hope to accomplish. It sucks I have to wait so long for my appointment. I've been so discouraged some days that I've wanted to just cancel and try to move on with my life, but I think we all can agree that probably isn't a viable option.

[Jamie D]

Fantastic post, Ativan.

[Jamie D]

Melanie Anne: That sounds like a place well worth waiting for the app't. When the word is around about clinics such as that one seems to be, the waiting list can be long. Gives you an idea of how important it is to many people to have a place that is current on meds and the ever changing diversity and needs of Non-Binary People. Hang in there, it's worth it.

Jamie D: Why, Thank you! *blush*

I appreciate honest and open information.  Especially from those who have already been around the block.  That's why I signed up.

[luna nyan]

Thanks for the post Ativan - it pretty much describes what I'm trying to achieve.

I've just started on meds, and the dosages are low - I'm hoping to get rid of the noise without going too far with things so to speak.
Definitely, a therapist and endo who are on the right page will go a long way.  I last saw my therapist a few years ago, and only saw my endo this week but he was happy to get me started.

[Melanie Anne]

Thanks so much for your reply Ativan. This is the kind of personal experience I was hoping to hear. When you say "it's important to me that it is 'what I want'" I can completely relate. I think just that psychological effect (like what you describe with spiro) is pretty much what I'm going for. I don't believe I could ever completely "pass" just on HRT because of some physical characteristics I have that HRT won't really change and I can't afford to surgically alter. So I am just looking for relief from the dysphoria. I am considering talking to my doctor about either Finasteride or Dutasteride though to try to help with one of those physical changes (MPB). I know spiro is the most common thing to be prescribed and I wonder if the other two will provide the same kind of psychological change. Without knowing a whole lot, I'm not sure just blocking testosterone (or DHT) would be enough without also adding E.

I already feel like some change has happened within me - I'm able to open up more and be myself more where before I always repressed saying things or acting a certain way. Now I'm just being who I'm comfortable being (which is hard since I've been repressing things for so long I'm having to rediscover who I really am). I'm really getting excited now and less stressed because the time is coming that I'll be able to do something about this. I have an appointment with a therapist next weekend so I'll finally be able to talk these things through with a professional. Wish me luck and I'll post updates if anyone's interested!

[luna nyan]

I only started my meds this week and my endo suggested low dose estrogen to start.  I have a Follow up appointment in 6 weeks with blood tests prior.  It will be interesting to see how I feel by next appointment - we may move onto a blocker as well.

As far as the order of the meds were concerned I really didn't have a definite preference - do talk and find out which effects may help you most and then request the appropriate meds.  If you have good clear reasons for one or the other the doctor should be reasonable enough to accommodate you.

Good luck!

[Shana A]

Thanks everyone! It's informative to read first hand accounts how this is working for other non-binary people. I'm currently in discussion with my therapist about possibly starting HRT, if I proceed, I will report back here.

Z

[RAY]

i had flomax for prostate problems. it made my nipples sore sensited to touch. couldn't shoot cum. stop taking it.

[Kinkly]

as a M2A transitioning person on full transition level hormones (M2F) I see my ideal end point as being a bearded Lady.  I am curious on what is avaiable info wise about non binary trans people I've struggled to find acceptance from medical people to be willing to accept me for who I am and allow me to transition toward who I am.  even though they only see the binary genders as normal.  If there are any websites I can point my doctor at or that I can look at myself then that would be great.  It often feels like there is no-one like me in the real world or at least not in my state

[SandraJane]

"Ya'll" might be interested in this article I recently posted; http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,117366.0.html  .

[Melanie Anne]

I'm going to a therapist today (finally) and can't wait to discuss these things with her. By the way, as an update, I've gone back away from the whole androgyne thing. I'm definitely a woman but because I don't see myself doing a full transition I think I was looking for a way to justify my path. I don't feel that I need to be accepted in society as a woman (as some of you do). I just want to feel better about myself. So I brought up this androgyne and HRT thing because I really want to do HRT without ever presenting to society as female. I guess that can bring certain complications as changes happen, but no matter what HRT does (except maybe C-cup boobs), I'll still be bald with a heavy beard and a deep voice so I can't see that people will confuse me appearance for that of a woman's. Is anyone else currently on this path?

[riven1]

I'm going to a therapist today (finally) and can't wait to discuss these things with her. By the way, as an update, I've gone back away from the whole androgyne thing. I'm definitely a woman but because I don't see myself doing a full transition I think I was looking for a way to justify my path. I don't feel that I need to be accepted in society as a woman (as some of you do). I just want to feel better about myself. So I brought up this androgyne and HRT thing because I really want to do HRT without ever presenting to society as female. I guess that can bring certain complications as changes happen, but no matter what HRT does (except maybe C-cup boobs), I'll still be bald with a heavy beard and a deep voice so I can't see that people will confuse me appearance for that of a woman's. Is anyone else currently on this path?

To some degree our paths are similar, except that when i'm in girl mode appearance is pretty important to me.

[Kinkly]

I'm going to a therapist today (finally) and can't wait to discuss these things with her. By the way, as an update, I've gone back away from the whole androgyne thing. I'm definitely a woman but because I don't see myself doing a full transition I think I was looking for a way to justify my path. I don't feel that I need to be accepted in society as a woman (as some of you do). I just want to feel better about myself. So I brought up this androgyne and HRT thing because I really want to do HRT without ever presenting to society as female. I guess that can bring certain complications as changes happen, but no matter what HRT does (except maybe C-cup boobs), I'll still be bald with a heavy beard and a deep voice so I can't see that people will confuse me appearance for that of a woman's. Is anyone else currently on this path?

I present full time as Bearded Lady although I do get get He / sir more then I like I'm also planning to just Do HRT but often think of surgeries 

[sophia001]

Hi Melanie,

Just want to show my thanks for you posting this, I saw a lot of what I'd like for myself in what you posted and feel like I may be on the same path as you in the not too distant future. You are so lucky to have a wife that is so accepting, I think mine is the same but things are at a much earlier stage.

Will be keeping an eye on this thread please keep us updated


edit: just realised it's a bit of an old thread, any update on your appointment at the therapists? hope it went well!

x

[Shantel]

I had initially intended to transition fully, but due to my age, my profession at the time and my marital status coupled with family considerations I eventually opted for an androgynous presentation. I would have had an excellent outcome, but after all of those previously mentioned considerations there is the business of the absolute necessity of having an extensive female wardrobe I'd have to continually roll over to remain fashionable with enough shoes and matching purses. Then there is the daily application of makeup and use of skin care products, light perfumes, nails. My hair is grey and thinning on the crown, I would need professional help there and constant coloring tune-ups so my roots wouldn't show. Or I could get a variety of expensive human hair wigs. Following SRS I'd be faced with having to dialate to keep the vagina from growing shut. Then there is a second surgery depending on which SRS surgeon you go to. Some surgeons don't do the labia minora during the initial surgery. Then if I had needed breast implants I'd be faced with the prospect of possibly having to have them changed every ten years (something they don't tell you about up front) Eventually I decided that being a full-time woman would be more than I wanted to deal with and took a pass on it. I have completed all of the steps, counseling, letters of recommendation, some FFS, electrolysis, HRT, an orchiectomy, even a SRS pre-surgery meeting with Dr. Bowers several years ago. I live in Washington state and could get gender markers changed easily at this point but decided that it too was too much trouble. I'm quite happy just being me, My marriage and family is still intact and I have grown content with where I am at this point. I'm glad that I stepped back and counted the cost!