Playing Devil's Advocate: What's so bad about ">-bleeped-< >-bleeped-<s"?

[Jamie-o]

I was having a discussion a while back with other trans people, and one of the comments was, "I would never date someone who was interested in me because I'm trans."  And I thought, "Why not?"  Personally - and I admit I'm early in transition, so my opinion my very well change - but personally, I would find it comforting knowing that my significant other liked the fact that I'm trans.  It would stop that soul-eating paranoia about whether he's really disappointed that I don't have a willy, but is just too polite to say so.   Besides, is an attraction to the non-gender-binary so different to, say, my attraction to baby-faced men?  Certainly, being baby-faced isn't my #1 criteria in a guy for a relationship.  But, dang, I find it hot.

So, up for discussion:  What's so bad about >-bleeped-< >-bleeped-<s? Is being attracted to trans people any different from being attracted to other physical traits?  Is there a difference between ">-bleeped-< >-bleeped-<" and "Trans Admirer"?  I'm curious to hear people's views.

[Ellieka]

If its purely a sexual thing for them then I have no interest in them. But if they are genuinely attracted to transpeople because of the personality and open mindedness than sure, why not. To me it would be similar to a person that prefers to date people of one specific race over another. Its just what they like.   

[Syne]

This site has a wonderful feature that allows one to search by a particular word. Plug in >-bleeped-< and you will be able to read on this topic and the definition of a >-bleeped-< >-bleeped-< and why they are viewed as being trouble.

[Jamie-o]

This site has a wonderful feature that allows one to search by a particular word. Plug in >-bleeped-< and you will be able to read on this topic and the definition of a >-bleeped-< >-bleeped-< and why they are viewed as being trouble.

Yes.  But the point was to start a discussion.

[Miniar]

There's a phrase within the bdsm community that's shortened to "NMKBYKIOK" or just "NMK" what it stands for is "not my kink but your kink is okay". I honestly believe that the kink is okay, >-bleeped-<s in and of themselves are not "bad", however, if they lie about their intentions they are dishonest, manipulative, and abuse the trust of those that they pray on, And that is bad.

The >-bleeped-< is neutral, their actions however, can be very bad.

[Sandy]

All too often I've seen people who've had their hearts broken by ">-bleeped-<s" who only admired trans (mostly MTF's) because of their "little something extra".  And once the trans person had their operation, then the >-bleeped-< lost interest and moved on.

In other words, the >-bleeped-< was too shicketchit to admit that they were gay and used the trans person to show the world that they had a hetero relationship but in the bedroom could participate in all their gay fantasies.

If a person loves a person it should be regardless of their physical attributes.  Gay, straight, trans, should not make a difference.  And if that is what occurs then I have no problem with it, however, more often than we would like, it does not.

-Sandy

[almost,angie]

 >-bleeped-< >-bleeped-<s are into it for the sex.( I think) I agree with what Sandy said. It is a way of having gay sex when the rest of the world thinks you are hetero. I myself am into women and if that woman I might be falling in love with is trans then I would have some things to get used to till she could have surgery. Yes, I think going out with a >-bleeped-< >-bleeped-< would be a bad move . One could find themself with a broken hart after surgey.

[Renate]

Well, yes, there are >-bleeped-<s specifically interested in pre-op MTF's.
I've never particularly understood that one as MTF's on hormones are not known for male potency.

There are some >-bleeped-<s who are interested in post-op MTF's.
I believe that they maintain that the something "extra" in this case is personality.
Many MTF's are more feminine than the average woman on the street.

[NicholeW.]

My personal take is that ">-bleeped-<s" are not inherently evil, bad, disgraceful or any more manipulative than any other human being. In point of fact I think we all too often are willing to forget just how any confidence game works: The shill wants to believe they can "win" the game.

The feelings of being useless and left alone are quite harsh on any person. But the TS who "falls" for a ">-bleeped-<" is more than complicit in her own pain when he leaves after she has surgery. (Pronouns may be generalized here I use them for brevity and clarity rather than for someone's notion of "inclusiveness.")

I have seen the desperation of people (MTFs) who so very badly wish to "be seen as women" that they accept even slurs and degrading behavior toward them as "proof that I'm a woman." That is terribly sad, I think. But, the desire overrides any sense that what she is doing is demeaning herself. OK, I imagine it ain't joyous to look like Karl Malden in a dress and when someone views you as "a woman" perhaps the previous pain can be a spur to losing all sense of one's self-dignity and allowing the other to help ya "feel better."

Well, most actions have "stop" buttons and the way I have seen it for the past ten or twelve years is that many MTFs appear to give the TS a pass on complicity, blaming instead the "heartless" and "manipulative" >-bleeped-<. "Manipulation" is a two-way street and the woman in question needs to realize just how deeply bereft of self-respect she must be to fall for particular behaviors brought to her in an effort to get the purveyor what he wants: sex with something extra as Sandy said.

We ignore what she's after and how she goes about doing it. Which is just as manipulative as anything he does. It's how human interaction works. Both people are in it for themselves. An MTF TS isn't some "innocent tool" being used by someone else. She is using him as well as being used.

Get used to that idea and get over yourself.

Relationships break-up over all sorts of things. "True love" is very hard work and anyone who thinks they are getting some prince who "loves me for who I am" is generally going to be totally disappointed as she wanders around ">-bleeped-< bars" and Craigslist hoping she can be "validated."

Your "realness" originates from inside you, not in the way other people "see" you and for years I have watched and heard MTFs ignore that basic fact.

If ya have ">-bleeped-<->-bleeped-<s" then you also have "desperate trannies" who have no clue that they can validate themselves and you have an entire community who are all too often complicit in demonizing others because their sisters lack any and all sense of themselves and their lives. O Puh-leez!

Let's discuss ">-bleeped-< >-bleeped-<s."

Nichole

[Janet_Girl]

I am on a couple of sites for TS/TG, and most are looking for relationships based on sex.  And you would not believe how many t-girls are playing into it.  But so are most of the dating sites.

Face it, that is what bioguys want.  They don't seem to want a truly deeper relationship.  I am about to drop out of all the sites I am in, three in all, and just be celibate.  And with the Zapada case, one can not be too careful.

Janet

[NicholeW.]

I am on a couple of sites for TS/TG, and most are looking for relationships based on sex.  And you would not believe how many t-girls are playing into it.  But so are most of the dating sites.

Face it, that is what bioguys want.  They don't seem to want a truly deeper relationship.  I am about to drop out of all the sites I am in, three in all, and just be celibate.  And with the Zapada case, one can not be too careful.

Janet

So, is anyone thinking that "dating sites" are exclusively there to match people for a "lifetime of commitment to one another?" O, puh-leez again. Most of it is strictly about s-e-x and not feeling alone.

Actually meeting someone and falling in love with them and being fallen in love with can, and has for years, happen in the context of one's life. If I think I am meeting my "true love" on a dating site or in a bar or poolhall or at a corner of the Tenderloin as he pulls up in his Cadillac and says "Hey, baby, how much?" is deluded as deluded can be.

D-e-s-p-e-r-a-t-i-o-n. There's the kernel.

Nichole

[kody2011]

if that's what they find attractive in a person, then why should it matter? as long as they are in it for love.

[Janet_Girl]

Exactly what I beginning to discovered. Why am I on these site?   To meet men?  Am I that desperate?  Maybe.  I am definitely lonely.  Validation.  Probably.  It is one thing for members of our community to say "You pass" and another for the rest of the world to say it.

But validation must come from within.  And that the hardest thing to achieve, but day by day it gets better.  I am even getting to the point of dropping the "Trans".

But that will change one day.  Just as SRS will.  Everything in due time.  It took me 25 years from the first time I tried to transition till now.  It wasn't time then, but it is now.

Love will come into my life.  Someone will walk into it.  And they might already be here.

[Steph]

If one looks at the word ">-bleeped-<" one could assume that it is short for Transvestite therefor a transvestite >-bleeped-< or does the term refer to all those who identify under the "T*" umbrella?

As for the dating sites and the risks associated...  Well I've had three relationships with men who I met online.  The first two didn't do it for me but so far the third man that I met is proving to be my soul mate and true love, he's wonderful.  Was I desperate? - NO.  Was I lonely? - Certainly, who isn't from time to time.  There's nothing wrong with dating sites as long as a person is sensible and keeps their eye's open.

-={LR}=-

[tekla]

If a person loves a person it should be regardless of their physical attributes.
as long as they are in it for love

And I want a pony. 

I'm shocked that men (apparently no one here has ever watched Sex in the City) are out for just sex.  Boy, you could knock me over with a feather.  I can not imagine any such thing.  Who knew?

Isn't there a thread running about all the wonderful things about MtFs?  Could it be that the >-bleeped-<s are just out for some of that goodness in their life?  OK, I didn't think so either - but it could happen.

It takes two to tango as they say, one to delude, and one who wants to be deluded.  'Twas ever thus.

[Sandy]

If a person loves a person it should be regardless of their physical attributes.
as long as they are in it for love

And I want a pony. 

I'm shocked that men (apparently no one here has ever watched Sex in the City) are out for just sex.  Boy, you could knock me over with a feather.  I can not imagine any such thing.  Who knew?

Isn't there a thread running about all the wonderful things about MtFs?  Could it be that the >-bleeped-<s are just out for some of that goodness in their life?  OK, I didn't think so either - but it could happen.

It takes two to tango as they say, one to delude, and one who wants to be deluded.  'Twas ever thus.

I wasn't alluding to the way it is.  But to the way it should be.

Just as there should be world peace.  But like my statement above it is not the way it is.

-Sandy

[tekla]

Why should it be that way?  What's wrong with sex qua sex?  What's wrong with sex for the sake of sex?  Why must it always be about 'love'?  People who choose that route are free to do so, and I suppose that life is a minefield for those looking for love, but it's always been that way. 

[NicholeW.]

I wasn't alluding to the way it is.  But to the way it should be.

Just as there should be world peace.  But like my statement above it is not the way it is.

-Sandy

Yep, the way it should be. Like the guy said, "I want a pony."

And I am well aware that some people do just fine through internet meets and finding "soul mates" that way. But, do the vast majority of people? And did anyone ever manage to have a soul mate who lives and remains 3000 or 300 or even 30 miles away througout the duration of the relationship?

John Prine,  Donald and Lydia 

I'm sure someone may chime in with an "I did." But I also know that tekla is in a long-term relationship (for a decade or more) with a lovely woman and they also met through the netz.

But they didn't make the relationship last 10 years through the netz, did they?

Single examples neither prove a point nor erase the amount of self-inflicted pain that any number of transsexual women bring on themselves by having a desire to "be loved" and later find out that what's loved is the pre-op state they were in.

How many who decide to wait to date until after surgery know they aren't being loved for the ways they were conditioned to behave as men prior to transition? Or due to their "being more feminine than real women?" Or that they are computer engineers or have blonde hair, or large arms or well-turned legs or bubble-butts or skinny-butts?

Finally, is anyone who dates "pre-op" a "transvestite" a priori? Puh-leez. May not be my way of doing things but it hardly is a "marker" for being a transvestite.

The cautionary tale is to not fool one's self and manage to think that a date or sex or "being told I am seen as a woman" means that you are now officially "a woman." To allow your entire sense of self and self-efficacy to be only dependant on what sort of person another "sees me as" is just plain self-defeating.

Take some time to realize yourself. If you do that while dating, at your job, through your church or whatever is fine.

But, the point remains, ">-bleeped-< >-bleeped-<s" are playing a game that is indulged in by both sides for reasons of their own. There's nothing inherently evil, manipulative or dishonest in that provided that you understand that on both sides the game is being played. I mean heck, how does that differ in any way from any courtship ritual?

The thought that there is some pure and pristine Platonic ideal that everyone should find in their partner may be a nice thought, but it really doesn't enter much into anyone's reality. Does it?

Nichole

[tekla]

tekla approves of anything that uses John Prine to prove a point.

And, FTR, we didn't meet on a dating site, we met on a board just like this one, where among the people I so upset that their heads exploded, one person kind of liked it.

[NicholeW.]

And, FTR, we didn't meet on a dating site, we met on a board just like this one, where among the people I so upset that their heads exploded, one person kind of liked it.

And, FTR, she showed a lot of good sense in seeing that, seems to me. Yep, you do have this thing about exploding heads doncha, Kat? Some of us just manage to find ways to stop the head exploding after awhile and wind up liking you.

She's a smart woman.

N~