Author Topic: Christian Transgender? Really? Please explain how I could be that  (Read 21029 times)

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Offline Shawn Sunshine

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Ok I havent really gotten any clear answers yet from anyone here or so far anyone on the internet. I have often been struggling with my identity, I would really like to be able to explore this further, but I cannot because I do not see how you can be a christian and a transgender. I have not found anything that can explain the following bible verses.
Quote

Deuteronomy 22:5
A woman must not put on men's clothing, and a man must not wear women's clothing. Anyone who does this is detestable in the sight of the LORD your God.
Leviticus 18:22
“Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.
Leviticus 20:13
“If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality,
1 Timothy 1:10
The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders, liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching

So I really need to hear from some Christians, that have already discovered what these mean, and how to come to terms with being able to live as the sex they feel they are supposed to be. It is not enough for me to just do what I want, it has to be something God says I can do. I cannot just do a thing because it feels good, I really don't like the "I'm ok, your ok, everything is ok, there is no sin, do whatever feels good" response I have been getting. I need to be able to come to terms with this because I know in my heart that God and Satan exist. I know that the devil is very capable of pulling the wool over my eyes and deceiving me.

So Please I am begging you to help me make sense out of all this.
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Offline SourCandy

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Re: Christian Transgender? Really? Please explain how I could be that
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2012, 12:25:52 pm »
Is it a sin to do that if you fully and 100% believe everything written in the bible? Maybe (Which is by the way, a Book written by people long ago, re-translated, and re-interpreted), or are you going to follow the core principals?

Because I think if you believe in god/Jesus, follow the ten real rules, and be kind to your fellow man. Then you will be fine.

Edited: x3

Offline Constance

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Re: Christian Transgender? Really? Please explain how I could be that
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2012, 12:28:28 pm »
Annah, our resident seminarian here at Susan's, could probably better answer questions regarding scripture. Here's my answer:

I disregard any part of the bible that seems to be against Jesus' message of love.

I follow few of the Laws that were given to Moses. I eat shellfish, pork, and other "unclean" foods. I work and travel more than 2000 yards on the Sabbath (between sunset Friday and sunset Saturday). I do not have a mezuzzah on my door post. I trim my hair, and wear garments of mixed material. My ex-wife was not a virgin when I married her, and I didn't stone her to death. And even though I was the one who seduced her before our wedding, I did not pay her father her dowry price.

And, I am out as a queer transgender person at my church, the Congregational Church of San Mateo, United Church of Christ.

Basically, I'm no different a Christian now than I was before I started transition.

Brooke777

Re: Christian Transgender? Really? Please explain how I could be that
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2012, 12:41:21 pm »
Being a Christian is to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. If you believe in him as your Lord and Savior then you are a Christian. Many of the OT rules have been deemed no longer applicable by God. Follow the NT. Try reading the book of Romans. Jesus teaches us to love everyone, and to accept everyone. Since He is the Son of God, then you should follow His teachings. He came here to save everyone. Not just the Isrealites whom God gave the rules in the oT to.

Offline peky

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Re: Christian Transgender? Really? Please explain how I could be that
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2012, 12:54:22 pm »
Quote from: Connie Anne link=topic=120625.msg937204#msg937204 date=1337880508

I disregard any part of the bible that seems to be against Jesus' message of love.

[/quote

That is an easy one:
 
"Rabbi, which is the greatest commandment in the Law? Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:34-40).

Of course, Jesus being a Jew knew about this commandment by hart as it is part of what is writen in his and any Jew Mezuzah:
"... thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might (Deuteronomy 6:4)" 

Whose bible anyway  :laugh:

 


Offline Shawn Sunshine

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Re: Christian Transgender? Really? Please explain how I could be that
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2012, 02:02:58 pm »
Ok why are you all telling me to ignore the old testament? When I have only posted 1 scripture from there the rest are from the new testament, im sorry but none of you have truly answered my questions or addressed what this scriptures mean, the context they are in and the original greek translation, if it means anything different.

I appreciate the responses, but its not helping.

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Offline Constance

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Re: Christian Transgender? Really? Please explain how I could be that
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2012, 02:16:45 pm »
Hopefully, Annah will see this thread and comment. She's more educated than I am regarding contexts and such.

And, I didn't say to ignore the Old Testament, the Hebrew Scriptures. What I said is that I disregard anything that goes against the heart of Jesus' teachings as summed up by the Golden Rule and the Great Commandment. When I encounter anything from the prophets and patriarchs who precede Christ or the disciples and modern-day theologians who came afterwards that contradicts anything in the Golden Rule and the Great Commandment, then I disregard these things.

This works for me, but it doesn't mean that it will work for anyone else.

Offline Shawn Sunshine

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Re: Christian Transgender? Really? Please explain how I could be that
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2012, 02:26:08 pm »
But if the disciples are filled with the holy spirit as Jesus gave them this gift , and if they follow the teaching themselves of Jesus, how can you disregard what they write? How can you disregard even Revelations, which written by John was a vision of the end times.

ConnieAnnie, I do hope Annah comes here and can explain it otherwise i will be truly lost and confused forever.

You're right what the bible says at least in its current translation to English , in today's context does scare me too, this is why I need to know if what is been said means something else entirely in those times compared to today.



« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 11:34:06 pm by Pleasingly Plump Jamie D »
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Offline Constance

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Re: Christian Transgender? Really? Please explain how I could be that
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2012, 02:31:20 pm »
I think it's safe to say that my take on being Christian doesn't quite mesh with the Christianity of others.

I don't expect any seat in heaven, purgatory, or hell when I die. I'm Christian because I believe being one helps me be better to the people around me.

Offline SourCandy

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Re: Christian Transgender? Really? Please explain how I could be that
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2012, 02:36:56 pm »
Hmmm...

As overplayed as it is, I think this is probably the only answer I can give you.

John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son so that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."


Offline Sarah Louise

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Re: Christian Transgender? Really? Please explain how I could be that
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2012, 02:54:37 pm »
Christ died for our sins, if we have accepted Christ into our lives and heart He forgives our sins.
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"

Offline Annah

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Re: Christian Transgender? Really? Please explain how I could be that
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2012, 04:25:50 pm »
Ok here we go (it may be really long so I apologize)

First of all, yes the Old Testament is important. It is a collection of books that lets us peer into the past in long forgotten cultures and societies and it lets us glimpse into what people thought about concerning the Divine.

Before I go further, I must make clear some things:

1. I do not take the Bible literally. Meaning, I do not believe there was a literal flood that wiped out the entire earth for the exception of one male and female of every animal and Noah's family). I do not believe that Jonah was really swallowed by a fish. I do not believe in a literal Adam and Eve as the first two created human beings who walked in Eden. However:

2. I take the stories as truths. The best way I can explain this is the story of Abraham Lincoln. While it is not literally taken as truth that Abraham Lincoln walked barefooted in the snow two miles during a blizzard to return an overdue library book, I see the stories' spirit as true. It is a reflection upon the integrity and honesty that the author who came up with this story to portray Abraham Lincoln in a time of uncertainty for the United States. Likewise, I follow the same type of logic with the Old Testament. Many of these stories were not true in a form of literal narrative history but they are true in the meaning in which they were written. For example:

The Adam and Eve Story conveys a sense of why humanity suffers with evils of this world. It explains how sin was introduced into this world and the promises God gives the new humanity in a form of a covenant to protect them (i.e., giving them clothing, childbirth etc). Other stories share the same types of narratives and meanings.

The Prophetic Books do not relay a palm reading of the future but the consequences of stepping away from God along with the promise that God is slow to anger and quick to forgive.

The "Writings" such as Ruth and Esther conveys stories (whether they are true or not) about humanities desire to overcome obstacles in their own lives. The story of Jonah is a satire of other prophets with an ironic and dark twist.

I mention all of these things because if one were to take everything in the Bible literally, then you will go insane to try to honor everything....hence the reason why Jesus was so upset at the Pharisees. The Pharisees tried to follow every single law and rule and story as if it was real and relevant and prominent but they lost their own senses and neglected to take care of common sense issues that were staring them right in the face.

For example, if you followed the law and the code of all the books in the Old Testament you would either be dead, executed, stoned, or left to beg on the sides of the streets.

Fast forward to the New Testament:

Jesus said that ALL the LAWS and the PROPHETS were fulfilled by ONE commandment. To love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul and to love your neighbor as yourself. This one commandment, if followed, is the summarization of every law every written;  EVERYTHING every writer in the Old Testament wrote. Jesus never spoke against gays, lesbians, bisexuals, asexuals, <transgender people>, women, men, dogs, or cats. He simply said, according to Luke, if you love your God and your neighbor as yourself then you are granted eternal life.

Jesus never said, "you have to do this, or you cant crossdress, or you cant kiss (A) or (B)." He simply said to love your God and to love your neighbor.

Now to explain these "clobbering verses." Clobbering verses are used to preach out against LGBT people. Before I start, I also want to share with you that people had used "Clobbering verses" to preach for Slavery and to preach out against the issues that women wanted to vote. Clobbering verses were also used up until the 1980s (and currently in some southern States) to show that it is forbidden for a white person and a black person to get married. In conclusion, clobbering verses has been used for centuries by bigots to try to show that their own bigotry and hatred is backed up by scripture.

1. Clobbering Verse tactic 1: Sodom and Gomorrah.

Accusation: God had destroyed both cities because they enjoyed their homosexual lifestyle. That's where the term Sodomy came from right? It means gay sex....so thats why God killed them all.

Correction:  God did not kill the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah (actually..I do not think God killed anyone in that city...I believe it was a natural disaster where people said God did it). But back to the point: God did not kill the people here because they were gay. The cities were destroyed (according to scripture) because they repeatedly did horrible things against their guests for a very long time.

According to culture and society of the middle east in that time (and currently in some middle eastern countries), the treatment of your guests were as important as how you treated your God. The guest in these cities were to be treated with the utmost respect. They were to be given the finest foods (or even the last bit of food if you had very little), the best bed, and the best attention. Sodom and Gomorrah did not do that. They robbed their guests, they murdered them, they raped them (which is NOT being gay) and the tortured them. This was one of the most ultimate blasphemies of that time. This was well before the Hebrew people had the law where "Yahweh first."  The treatment of their guests were abhorrent. 

Sodomy in ancient Hebrew (Old Testament language) and in koine Greek (New Testament language) does not mean gay sex. It means a forceful sexual action against another man. Forceful male prostitution and male rape was Sodomy. It had nothing to do with sex between two consenting men or two consenting women. I have taken 4 years of Ancient Hebrew and 2 years of Koine Greek. 1st Corinthians 6:9 refers to forceful prostitution and temple sex of the pagan gods. It has nothing to do with homosexuality. In 1st Corinthians 6:9 there are only two translations that uses "homosexuality": The New International Version (an evangelical conservative translation) and the New American Standard Version. As we speak,. the New American Standard Version are re editing their translation and they are replacing "homosexuals" with "sodomite" which more accurately referred to what Paul was talking about by forcing a man into a prostitution ring (which in the Greek is Arsenoikoitus.......which does NOT mean consenting gay sex).

2. Clobbering Verse tactic 2: The Book of Leviticus

Accusation: The book of Leviticus forbids crossdressing and gay sex. It says it is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord.

Correction: Yes it does say it is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. But let's explore the other scripture in this book.

1. Tattoos are an abomination of the Lord (Lev 19:28)
2. Planting two different crops in the same field allows your neighbors to burn down your house (Lev 19:19)
3. If you wear two different fabrics in one clothing, that is just as bad as crossdressing (same chapter). So if you are wearing a cotton/polyester blend article of clothing you have just done something just as bad as crossdressing.
4. If you are mentally or physically disabled, then you are not allowed to go to church and worship God (Lev 21)
5. Lev 25:44 says it is in your right and a Godly thing to own slaves.
6. Eating shellfish (crabs, shrimp, and lobster) is an abomination to God

In conclusion, these laws were written for a culture long gone, to a society long gone, and it makes no sense in today's society.
 
Matter of fact, they made little sense in Jesus' time either. There was a story where Jesus healed someone on Sabbath. The Pharisee wanted to kill him right there because Jesus violated a Levitical law (oh no!) Jesus responded to the Pharisee as if he was saying to the Pharisee (open your eyes and use common sense). Would not a shepherd go and rescue a sheep that was hurt on the Sabbath? How much more so for the Son of Man to rescue one of God's children?

Jesus was using his own teachings by saying "love your God and love your neighbor as yourself." If you love your Neighbor, you will go and save them...even if it means breaking a levitical law. God isn't impressed by how many laws you kept today. God is impressed by how many people you loved today.

This is shown when Jesus told a story of some people who had died and Jesus did not know them. Jesus said, "these people were sick and you did not take care of them, they were hungry and you did not feed them. They were homeless and you did not give them shelter, they were in jail and you did not visit them. They were naked and you did not cloth them. Surely, I tell you, the least you have done to these people you have done to me also."

Hence why we go ALLLLL the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah. They treated their guests like animals. They did not love them as their neighbor. They did not feed them, they did not cloth them, they did not give them shelter. They raped them. The least they do to them, they do to God. In essence, and through the literary sense, these people were raping God. And you see a hint of that when they wanted to rape the angels.

Luke 10:25-28

Just then a lawyer stood up to test Jesus. ‘Teacher,’ he said, ‘what must I do to inherit eternal life?’

He said to him, ‘What is written in the law? What do you read there?’

He answered, ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbour as yourself.’

And he said to him, ‘You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.’


It cannot be more clearer. Love God and love your God.  Do this, and you will live.

The Old Testament is not to be ignored but to be fully realized in Christ. All the laws, all the rules, everything funneled down and was made obtainable, through Christ, where all of these laws were condense into loving someone other than yourself.


Brooke777

Re: Christian Transgender? Really? Please explain how I could be that
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2012, 05:01:12 pm »
Wow!!! Annah, you have an amazing understanding of scriptute, and you are able to present it extremely well.

Offline Shawn Sunshine

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Re: Christian Transgender? Really? Please explain how I could be that
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2012, 05:20:15 pm »
Annah thank you for your post, some things you said are clear but I would please ask if you could address specifically the scriptures I posted.
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Offline Annah

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Re: Christian Transgender? Really? Please explain how I could be that
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2012, 05:39:32 pm »
I thought I explained all of your scriptures (Deuteronomy and Leviticus are the same Holiness Code....just in a different book)

Did you read my comment?

I explained all of the verses you listed.

Offline Shawn Sunshine

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Re: Christian Transgender? Really? Please explain how I could be that
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2012, 05:48:16 pm »
Ok i re-read it and I see that you did, but im still confused as to why if God knows that his book is his word, then why are you saying things like the flood didnt happen, why is that even in the bible if it never happened. Would not God see to it that his word is indeed written and given to us? Why am I suppose to all of the sudden not believe in the fact that God was unhappy and displeased with everyone sin, and started over again.
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Offline Annah

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Re: Christian Transgender? Really? Please explain how I could be that
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2012, 06:12:59 pm »
Because many people are conditioned into believing that the only way God exists is by taking the Bible literally word for word. If Bible literalists were to ever find out that a certain story in the Bible did not happen they their faith is shaken to the core and then they begin to doubt many things. It's the premise of the stories that convey the truth....not the words of the stories themselves.

For example. The Flood is a creation story that was told by many many many cultures and at least a thousand years before the Hebrew people told their version of the story. Many parts of the story were different but some were the same. For example, the Assyrian story of the flood, a demi god hero convinces the angry gods to spare some people. Other accounts, such as the Welsh and the Transylvanian accounts give a more worldly down to earth account. A "flood story" is a way to describe an event in which Gods of the heavens poured down their wraith to destroy humanity. Water was a very violent and fearful thing in the ancient world. Moreso than fire. Also, one can easily surmise that an actual flooding did occur when the Atlantic ocean filled the basin of what is now the Mediterranean Sea.

The Bible is full of many stories that other civilizations had as well. For example, even the Christ story emulates that of the story of Mithra.

Mithra was a God Son born in the Persian Empire and the story was told seven hundred years (and well documented) before the Christ story.

For example, Mithra was born of a virgin woman named Anahita on December 25th
Mithra was wrapped in swaddling clothes, placed in a manger and was attended by shepherds
Mithra had twelve companions
He performed miracles
Mithra died and sacrificed himself in the name of Peace
Mithra was resurrected three days later
He ascended into heaven

In the ancient Assyrian and Persian texts dated 600 BC, Mithra was called "The Way, the Truth, and the Light", "Te Redeemer", "The Savior", "The Messiah"

The day that Mithra followers worship him in on Sunday (which was called the Lord's Day)
They had a Eucharist and a Lord's supper
Mithras stressed baptism

Sounds familiar ;)

Does this mean I believe Jesus was a fake? By no means. There are two things I believe what had happened.

1. I believe that God gives us many people in this world to show us love through charity and that eternal life is granted through love.
2. Many many things about Jesus was added throughout the centuries. For example, Jesus did not come from a virgin mother. In the Old Testament (Isaiah) when the prophet proclaimed the Messiah's birth he mentioned the Messiah would come from a Young Hand Maiden. NOT a virgin. In the Ancient Hebrew, Isaiah says "Almah" which is hand maiden. If Isaiah wanted to say "virgin" he would had wrote "bethulah."

The Greeks at the time when they wrote the Old Testament in the Septuingent (LXX) they translated the word into "parthenos." In other words, they mistranslated it. However, world leaders of both ancient religions have concluded that it was not virgin but handmaiden. But, because of tradition for the last 1800 years, no one dared to changed it.

Sunday was the same way. Emperor Constantine used the stories of Mithras and the Roman's own pagan Sun Day holiday as the Lord's Day. Many cultures like that were merged.

Even with all of this said and done, it does not take away the validity of Christ's walk on earth, his message, and his power. Even the secular historian, Josephus (who wasn't a Christian)  made historical accounts of Jesus' ministry, death, and rumors of a resurrection. So I do believe in the history of Jesus. I believed he was the Hebrew Messiah from the lineage of David. However, what makes me a Progressive Christian is the fact that I do not believe that Jesus was the only one who walked this earth to give answers in a world that greatly needed them.

Don't take my word on this. I encourage anyone to research and to study these things for themselves. Not just by going on the internet but by going to Universities and asking questions, ask to see documents and manuscripts. And, if you have the time, to learn these ancient languages yourself.

It is because I studied all these religions without people trying to hide things from me or try to cover them up, that makes me respect my spirituality all the while.

Christianity isn't perfect. We've had our darkest moments for 1800 years starting with Constantine. There's nothing to really brag about. Christianity has done a real number against people in the name of eternity and of God.

But I need to make some things clear with this. Never, in all my life, have I ever blamed God or Christ. When an entire German village had their women all executed for witchcraft, or the crusades, or when the Pope turned an ignorant eye away from Hitler and Mussolini, I did not abandon who God is. Christ, through God, gave us all the moral responsibility to love one another.  If people truly loved one another then the Crusades would never had happened. The Salem Witch Trials would never had happened. The Spanish Inquisition would never had happened. Love is the most simplest commandment God has ever given to us but it is not to be treated lightly and it can be, at the same time, the most difficult commandment ever. To love your neighbor even when you think hating them would be justified.

As Ghandi pointed out, "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians."

I read a commentary by Gandhi when he explained when he read the Sermon on the Mount. Gandhi wept and wondered why Christians did not do what Jesus preached. As a Hindu, Gandhi was more of a follower of Christ than the Archbishop of Canterbury was. Because Gandhi knew what it meant to love others.
Words cannot describe how alive the Bible becomes when you read it in it's original language. Read "Ruth" in Hebrew. It'll be like sitting down with a nice erotic novel.

Offline SourCandy

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Re: Christian Transgender? Really? Please explain how I could be that
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2012, 06:26:37 pm »
You also need to keep in mind that the bible as it exist today is only a collection of the historic texts that people long ago deemed were the "true cannon" not really by any word of god. There are plenty of stories and variations of the stories in the bible that existed back then that are considered forgotten/non-cannon today. Ultimately the book is just a book with some of the important stories (and some let's be honest, some of the not as important),

It's not more important than the holy trinity. So in the end you have to ask yourself, Is the Bible your judge, or is Jesus?

Offline Annah

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Re: Christian Transgender? Really? Please explain how I could be that
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2012, 06:33:53 pm »
yup

There was 23 Gospels before the councils narrowed it down to four (and four because three of them were taken from the same source).

Going to Seminary is a lot like going to Hogwarts.

You discover books that no muggle has ever seen or is afraid to read. You learn things no muggle has ever been taught.

Which is a tragedy. Every Christian should learn the things I had learned.

I recommend a book called "The Dishonest Church." It doesn't take that long to read and it talks about how so many pastors learn about Christianity the correct way in Seminary but will then get a job in a church and then teach it how people always "understood it as."

Very good book

Offline Shawn Sunshine

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Re: Christian Transgender? Really? Please explain how I could be that
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2012, 06:35:27 pm »
Ok I looked into Mithra and while it makes sense, i also found the following text :

Quote
there is no need for any of the Christian writers to borrow from anything other than the Old Testament source in order to establish any Christian doctrine concerning Jesus. If the argument that pagan mythologies predated Christian teachings and therefore Christianity borrowed from them is true, then it must also be truth that the pagan religions borrowed from the Jewish religion because it is older than they are! Given that all of the Christian themes are found in the Old Testament and the Old Testament was begun around 2000 B.C. and completed around 400 B.C., we can then conclude that these pagan religions actually borrowed from Jewish ideas found in the Old Testament. Think about it, the idea of a blood sacrifice and a covering for sin is found in the first three chapters of Genesis when God covered Adam and Eve with animals skins and prophesied the coming of the Messiah.

I got that from this page here

 http://carm.org/christianity/bible/doesnt-religion-mithra-prove-christianity-false



Ok Mary was not a virgin? Ok but what about immaculate conception? To say that Jesus was also the seed of Joseph would negate the power of God being able to just make Mary Pregnant via the Holy Spirit.
Shawn Sunshine Strickland The Strickalator

#SupergirlsForJustice