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Environmental concerns

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I like the idea of solar, but not the idea of EXXON Solar selling us photovoltaic cells that require heavy industry and toxic chemicals to manufacture. That's just more of the same.

Tessa James:
Energy conservation is the best bet for reducing our dependence on the fossil fuels that have the biggest role in creating greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide.  Carbon dioxide levels are not the only problem of course.  Americans are great people but we use more energy per capita than anyone else and it is unnecessary.  Life style choices, more efficient appliances, and thoughtful community planning can contribute to the solutions.  We designed and built our small passive solar home and later added photovoltaic cells to the roof.  We get more than half our energy needs from the sun and we live on the rainy Oregon coast.  We drive a hybrid car, prefer bicycle and foot traffic, recycle everything and prefer to buy locally produced food and products.  We are not any better than anyone else and we are grateful we have the means to do what we can.  IMO it starts with being informed and then caring enough to take action.

Fracking is a process of pumping toxic industrial material into the ground to rupture the planet's skin and extract more oil and gas.  Eevee is right on about this and the Gasland videos are just one source of info about it.  What we want in a clean and sustainable world is eminently reasonable for our children and the other living beings we share this place with.

As this is a transgender support site I am reminded of the "Radical Queer and/or Trans Folks for Environmental Justice" group in Portland Oregon.  Its good to share the effort with friends :D

And thanks for starting this thread Devlyn

Besides the proprietary chemicals that end up getting illegally dumped in protected watersheds/streams
Besides the destabilizing of the land

It turns neighbors against each other, like a fascist regime. If you don't sell out, your neighbor will. If you do sell out, your neighbors will hate you.

And my gas bill is still expensive!
^I read it's because even though production is up... there isn't adequate infrastructure to deliver the gas fast enough during peak demand, so we still have supply/demand pressures that raise prices in the winter.

I grew up a river rat. Darby Creek is one of the most pristine waterways. These days I wouldn't recommend kids swim in it.

Anyone heard of the Halliburton Loophole?

Energy Policy Act of 2005
This bill exempted fluids used in the natural gas extraction process of hydraulic fracturing (fracking) from protections under the Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, Safe Drinking Water Act, and CERCLA.[21] It created a loophole that exempts companies drilling for natural gas from disclosing the chemicals involved in fracking operations that would normally be required under federal clean water laws — see exemptions for hydraulic fracturing under United States federal law. The loophole is commonly known as the "Halliburton loophole" since former Halliburton CEO Dick Cheney was reportedly instrumental in its passage.[22] The proposed Fracturing Responsibility and Awareness of Chemicals Act would repeal these exemptions.

My solar friends have said that 2015 is the year where solar is projected to cost the same as coal. Politics aside, once renewable energy is as affordable or cheaper than hydrocarbons, the world will make the switch... can't wait!

Last note, no matter what source of energy you think is best for USA... think about the whole world using hydrocarbon like we do. The developing world wants to be just like us. So let's clean up our act so that they can.

I'll put my 30+ years as a power conversion electrical engineer wig on (or is it take it off?) and my inner and frugal sailboat owner cap on.

Solar Cells - Well, for starters the sun doesn't always shine. When it does depending where you are the sun exposure is pretty poor. To guarantee any semblance of a reliable electrical supply you need batteries. Batteries probably don't need it to be said but it is a very dirty industry. Higher tech batteries are even more worse then the old standard Lead wet cells. The semiconductor industry overall is probably even dirtier then battery manufacturing. Ask Intel how that California manufacturing profitability is going. As soon as they can take the risk, it goes off-shore. Solar cells use slightly different processes but still pretty dirty. Solar cells, like batteries have a definite life span. A few years ago you could expect the solar cell conversion efficiency to drop fairly dramatically after even just 1 year in intense sunlight. Five years is a good average for big $$ name brand cells. Maybe ten these days but it'll cost you. Batteries also wear out with constant use. Again 5-10 years tops while in service. Telco's backup batteries can last 30 or so years but they are almost always in standby, very expensive, and well maintained. We know how to reprocess lead, acid, the plastic. Even the glass matting can be used for making asphalt. Hi-tech lithium based cells.... Not so easy and very dangerous.

Gaslands, the movie.... One of the greatest, funniest propaganda pieces I've seen. People out west have been lighting up their water wells for over 150 years. The EPA has time and time again in court have been knocked down for their junk science and rigging the experiments. To the best of my knowledge they haven't won a case yet in court. When both sides distort the message, it is difficult to see the truth

I worry more about the likes of Monsanto and ADM. Most food is garbage these days. Everything is hybridized or manipulated to hell. Fast growing and hardy for shipping is what counts. There have been very few nutritional studies done one grains, veggies, and fruits since the late 20's. The real nutritional value from todays industrialized varieties pale in comparison. Fruits and veggies are picked well before they are ripe. Ripe meaning the matured and achieved their full nutritional value by sucking up sunlight and minerals from the Earth.  Just hours before delivery the truck driver sets loose a couple of gas bombs inside the trailer to start the chemical ripening (coloring) process. (Ever wonder how 'Oranges' got that name if they are like almost always yellow?) I think half the reason people are so obese these days is the primeval longing to eat something that actually has flavor beyond salt and HFCS, a major poison in our food chain. No... it is not sugar. It is corn syrup mixed with chemicals to make it sort of look like a sugar molecule.


--- Quote from: JoanneB on December 07, 2014, 08:55:00 am ---Gaslands, the movie.... One of the greatest, funniest propaganda pieces I've seen. People out west have been lighting up their water wells for over 150 years. The EPA has time and time again in court have been knocked down for their junk science and rigging the experiments. To the best of my knowledge they haven't won a case yet in court. When both sides distort the message, it is difficult to see the truth

--- End quote ---

Just because it is biased, doesn't mean it is propaganda. It still speaks the truth, while propaganda is all lies. Yes, some wells have had methane enough to light them up before. That's not what the documentary is talking about, though. These are wells that have never had methane leaks in them before, and only started once the fracking started up nearby (or on) their properties. The methane is only a visible indicator, though. The real problem going on is the toxic chemicals that are less visible within the same water. Yet again, these same wells and local water sources only became contaminated with the toxins after fracking started nearby. The same chemicals are specifically used in hydraulic fracking and are not found in nature. Explain that one away for us. Then tell us why in some areas, even the air itself is too toxic too breathe after (and only after) the appearance of hydraulic fracking. How about the constant earthquakes where they used to be a rarity? It's no wonder that people involved in the fracking of other areas are so against moving fracking near their own homes once the idea is discussed.


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