Author Topic: TS Defamation League - TSDL  (Read 5468 times)

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Teri Anne

TS Defamation League - TSDL
« on: December 21, 2005, 05:04:33 am »
In her July Action forum, Cassie (one of my heroines here) stated:  "As groups go, the transexual community doesn't seem to be very active. Witness this forum which seems to get so little attention. It's like this is the place were posts go to die."  That July forum presented an assortment of insightful posts that listed the many reasons TS's don't get and time required for transition...the desire to finish transition, become your inner self, be it male or female, and stay there.  The proverbial happy ending.

Yet many post ops find themselves here, contributing and helping in any way we can the next generation of TS's.  I wonder if a website (or part of an existing website) could be started that dealt with portrayals in the media that are offensive to the transsexual community.  It would be kind of an Anti-Defamation League for us.  No money would be required from our busy struggling TS's....only an email would need to be sent to to the offending production company, television company or advertiser.  The implied threat to them would be that they would lose customers, viewers or advertising revenue if they didn't change the offensive portrayal.

I get occassional emails from GLBT organizations urging that I send an emaill regarding legislation to this or that congressman.  My idea would be that the emails would be targeted more towards the money people.  As an example, there's a Citibank commercial that promotes their anti-identity theft capability.  Unfortunately, to show theft they showed a male credit card thief posing as a woman -- or vice versa.  To me, it was upsetting because it reinforced the NEGATIVE STEREOTYPE of males posing as women as being bad and devious.  I don't think Citibank meant to be mean towards us...they just didn't think they'd be hurting any feelings.  And, of course, it's not just our feelings that get hurt.  These negative stereotypes can reinforce acceptance of the idea of being suspicious of us, that we're deviant.  It infers three words:  something's wrong here...  People's subconscious may remember that negative image in the next job interview you attend.

Not all "guy in a dress" portrayals annoy me.  I laughed with "Some Like It Hot" (How DOOO they walk in these things?!).  "Mrs. Doubtfire" wasn't just was warm and liked Robin Williams as Mrs. Doubtfire and you wanted her to win.  Some stereotypes are good..."the prostitute with a heart of gold."  I hear great things about the current movie, "Transamerica."  Negative stereotypes hurt minorities.  You've seen them:  The supposid penny pinching Jew, the Amos and Andy-drawling black, the mafioso Italian, and lately, the Islamic terrorist (40% of the Islamic people in the U.S. are apparently black).

I don't know what you'd call this email effort.  TS ADL comes to mind but unfortunately when you put together the S and the AD, you get SAD...definitely not an image to promote.  Maybe it wouldn't need to be group at all.  I don't know if this "Activism" section of "Susan's Place" would be an appropriate place to start.  If, for example, we found an entity that painted a negative stereotype, we would post a request for emails here and tell people what email address to send the complaints to.  The emails would NOT be sent under the banner of "Susan's Place."  The email letter appeal would have a stronger affect if it looks like it's coming from individuals.  If people here aren't interested, they won't send an email.  We could urge other GLBT groups to join us in this email campaign. 

Susan, and others....if this is an inappropriate suggestion for an "Action" post, feel free to let me know and I'll (or you can) delete this post.  Thanks for listening.


Northern Jane

Re: TS Defamation League - TSDL
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2005, 08:45:29 am »
Do you think there is enough negative portrayal in the media to warrant a special Web site or page?

I have often wished that we TS and former-TS could get organized enough (in sheer numbers) to have some political clout. We could do SO much good if we could pressure regulators to change laws or "policies" where they need to be changed, to pressure those who control the purse strings of healthcare providers, and maybe even put forward a collective and positive public image!

I mean THINK about all the unique characteristics that most of us possess! We have FOUGHT our way through confusion, ridicule, discrimination, public embarrassment, and god knows what all else to achieve internal unit and peace. We have had to raise and fork out tens of thousands of dollars just to get where others are by accident of birth! We underwent surgery or multiple surgeries. Often we had to give up the most important things in life, things others take for granted, just to achieve our proper place in life!

TS people (largely) are VERY deep thinkers, have questioned the very basis of human identity, and have a tremendous capacity for understanding and caring. A very large percentage of TS people are extremely intelligent and accomplished, hold key positions in complex and technical fields.

As a group, I think TS people are extraordinary people and worthy of acclaim - in some societies, we ARE viewed as extraordinary people to be respected and admired - North America just doesn't happen to be one of them.

(Sorry, but I have never felt that the association with gay, lesbian, and <transgender> people reflected well on transsexuals. In the case of so many TS people, the psycho-sexual inversion is so strong that I have never seen it as "a gender issue" but rather as a physical deformity.)

Northern Jane

Re: TS Defamation League - TSDL
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2005, 12:36:21 pm »
Do you see being lesbian as being connected somehow to being transsexual or are your "preference" and your GID seperate issues?

Teri Anne

Re: TS Defamation League - TSDL
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2005, 01:21:45 pm »
Your discussions here, whether or not GLBT groups speak for us, is, I think, worth pondering.  Like Melissa, I was straight before transition and am now considered gay.  Thus, you would think that having a GLBT group speak of my issues is okay and, for the most part, it is.  In a cruel or indifferent world, I welcome their help. And they know what if feels like to be discriminated against and "made fun of."   The only problem is that TS's joining forces with GLBT groups probably confuses outsiders....we insistingly tell society that being TS is a "gender identity" issue, not a "gender preferrence" issue, and then we join forces with GLBT group (or more accurately, I presume, they took us under their wing for protection.  I thank them for that).  It must be confusing for outsiders.  And there's no winning public perception sometimes, no matter whether I decide, as a post op F2M, to date men or women.  If I date women I must be gay.  If I date men, I must have had latent gay tendancies. 

It would, for my purposes, be better to separate the "gender identity issue" from the "gender preference issue" in  a group that purports to speak for me.  Under this reasoning, it would be better, for me, to have our own TS organization that would simply be TS, nothing more, nothing less.  I know that many would say that it should be a TG group and, perhaps, there should be one of those, too.  For my purposes, a TS group could take our issues which are specific to our community.  This isn't to say that there wouldn't be arguments even within the TS community on various issues.  It would just try to remedy the situation where TS community has had to go for decades with each TS having to deal with life-threatening issues on their own.  They could chat or write about these issues in a TG website but there is no entity that they could really call their that would protect them solely.  Psychologists and surgeons go to great lengths to separate the casual gender benders from people who, in their soul, feel they are TS.  While we share many issues with the TG community, there are many issues that are TS's solely.  The whole process of RLT, surgery, and job descrimination are issues that a CD, for instance, would rarely face.  There are more subtle issues, also.  A CD, perhaps, may not feel PAIN when they hear a comedian mock "guy in a dress" appearance or the old standby, "Ha, ha.  He thought he was a woman trapped in a man's body."  But we, as TS's, know it's no laughing matter to us.  Its not a joke.  It DEMEANS us, in the same way Amos and Andy demeaned blacks with a lazy drawling negative stereotype.  It's even worse when Citibank has "identity theft" commercials of guys possing as thiefs to women's credit accounts.  It has the subtle inference that, perhaps, any guy who acts female could be an IDENTITY THIEF rather than someone in transition.  I'm sure that many in the conservative right thinks of all <transgender people> as identity thieves.  But, if we try to point out that hurt to society, they will say, "What do you mean?  Your own TG group, by including drag queens, is saying that this whole tumult about gender is something to not be taken seriously.  I can understand that argument also -- that by bending gender, drag queens could be telling society to loosen their grips on the idea that males and females are like two different species.  In that way, contradicting my own personal paranoia, drag queens could be actually helping us, rather than hurting us.

In the best written shows - shows like "The Practice" -  I notice that the writers will argue a court case from totally opposite viewpoints.  Both viewpoints are intelligently thought out and magnificently presented.  You listen to one side and you think, my gosh, how could the other side be any better?  But then the other side speaks and it has an equally intelligent defense.  The writer/creator of that show has stated that he finds it interesting how there can be two equally intelligent viewpoints to most issues.  Issues like abortion and whether or not to go to war have equally passionate defenders.

My point, regarding a specific TS group, would be that we would best offer our brilliant argument if we spoke for us and us alone.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2005, 05:12:21 pm by Teri Anne »


Re: TS Defamation League - TSDL
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2005, 01:32:38 am »
Hi Teri

Estimates for the US population of women who have completed surgery seem to range between 30K and 50K.  Of this number how many would consider themselves effectively stealth and how many would risk that by coming out and asking for equality?  For that matter how many would want to step up and brand themselves as a transsexual woman?  I am sure it would be less than 10% of the total population.

What passes for government listens to numbers and 5000 maximum people is merely a whisper in the dark.  This particular community has no numbers, no power base for leverage.  Look at it this way.  If we cannot agree on who has the right to use a bathroom what chance to we have of convincing some semi homophobic/transphobic politician  of who we are and what needs to be done?

If someone is stealth, what more do they need?  Yes the right to legally marry despite chromosomal differences.  If that was granted then the legal rights, inheritance and all would  or should be granted.

As an out lesbian I have no rights nor at the present rate will I ever have any.  Society granted me the right to be me but that’s it.  This is why I am involved in the women’s community.    If I was a str8 identified woman then I would be in their face demanding equality.   

There are dozens of small to medium sized groups that are working for T recognition bills.  None have had much impact on a national level.  City , county and state  they have done some but there are probably 45 states that have no GID bills and less that 75 major cities that have legal protections.   If we can’t get cities to pass ordinances what are the chances that it will happen nationwide?


Re: TS Defamation League - TSDL
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2005, 03:50:35 am »
more accurately, I presume, they took us under their wing for protection

Kinda.  Back in the 60's and 70's T's tended to work with most all other discriminated groups for equality causes.  They were also quite more active about gender rights at that time then they have been since.

The problem is that as Leigh spoke of there is little coheasion and organisation among T groups in fighting for thier own purpose.  There are some very active T groups but support from the greater majority of <transgender people> is lacking.  Ones here who have worked hard in fighting for city by city legislation have experienced a lot of disapointment in this regard when trying to organise and face the problems.

Gay and Lesbian, especially Lesbian groups have done all they can donating money and time away from thier own causes to help out on the identity cause but are all to often frustrated by the lack of T involvement in these issues and the complaints from the TG segments when they don't get the things they want all at once or in the order of importance to those that need it most.

Gay and Lesbian groups have worked hard and dangerously since the early 50's to earn what they have gained and so know how to organise and what works and doesn't work, but TG's are more prone to "wait and see" rather then roll up thier sleeves and take the risks.

It's a hard issue and gay/lesbian groups are at times weary of it, but they do it because as they help T's gain rights it also opens doors for themselves but until the T community takes on more responsibility for it's own rights things aren't going to improve very quickly.

All are going to have to face the fact that yes, some are going to get hurt and some will lose jobs, homes and finances, but until one is willing to take risks they can't expect gains quickly.  The gay/lesbian groups took those risks and losses and many didn't make it through it, but over time they have bought what they could obtain.

As said, there are many reasons why T's are shy of being active, but untill they beome so and take the same risks as all other minorities have had to take there is little that can be complained about.  It's something the T community has to face within itself and they have to make an identification of what would legally be included in the legislation.  This is a binary culture where men are men and women are women and like it or not, T's are going to have to fall into one of those catagories for the public to accept it. Defining ourselves what is a Transgender who has the life needs of the opposite sex and who doesn't need rights and obligations as the opposite sex is the issue that mostly witholds public recognition and as a community <transgender people> tend to avoid any definition at all of what they are what they need and why they need it.  Rather they would like to think all should get the same, wheather they live full time as post ops or just dress up a couple nights a month.  That is the general publics problem.  should the part time dressers have the same rights as full time women who have to have those rights in order to live at all in the greater community?  The majority of Transgender groups thnk so and many of those who do live completely and totally full time think not as does the greater public community.  things to think about.

When T's realise they must be realistic then at that time things will move a lot more quiickly, but it involves issues they do not want to talk about and that is why they make so little progress.

Everyone think on it.


Teri Anne

Re: TS Defamation League - TSDL
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2005, 05:00:23 pm »
Leigh and Terri Gene.  Thank you.  You are both, I'm sure, very valued members here at Susan's because you know facts and you can relate to the emotions people go through.  While I agree that having a TS group has been elusive up to this point, perhaps previous efforts have been too "feet on the ground" oriented.  If we ask post op TS's (aka women) to appear in a group in front of a building, there are, quite naturally, going to be a lot of TS's that won't wish to participate for fear of "outing" themselves.  I wonder if there has ever been an INTERNET BASED TS group that seeks to achieve legislation and TS issues acted upon by having MASS EMAILINGS from TS's and those friendly to TS's.  Those TS's who are comfortable being "out" could be the face for the organization when it comes to meeting with the government or various citizen groups.

I do believe, as the next generations take over the TS battles, they will perhaps not have the fear that today's TS's do in "coming out."  They will have transitioned at a young age and thus won't have to explain away why they spent forty or fifty years in another gender.  Many will look better than us because that testosterone thing won't have gouged its way through their bodies for so many years.  By transitioning young, they'll still have their high female-sounding voices, their youthful hair and, to many, they'll look damn cute.  It's scientifically proven that society pays more attention and looks up to you if you're handsome or beautiful.  I mean, look at the idiot people in the media whose only qualification for being famous is "how do I look?"

Anyway, thanks again, Leigh and Terri Gene, for sharing your ideas, wit, and compassion.

Teri Anne


Re: TS Defamation League - TSDL
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2005, 07:54:04 pm »
Dedicated to Federal legislation legitimizing and recognizing the gender of post operative transsexuals, guaranteeing them the same rights and protection, in each and every state, uniformly, as that of any other person of their gender…

The Status quo...

Those of us who have undergone gender reassignment surgery find ourselves disenfranchised. There are no uniform laws guaranteeing us the same rights as others of our gender regardless of what state we may reside in. Though many states allow us to change our gender marker, either before or after gender reassignment…others do not. In some states, our right to marry one of the opposite sex is assured…in others, it is deemed invalid. Though most states allow, in one form or the other, us to change or have amended our birth certificates to reflect our gender…some states do not allow any alteration whatsoever. The federal government allows us to change our Social Security card to reflect our gender reassignment as well as our Passport, but will not recognize our marriage to a foreign national, nor grant social security benefits to the survivors of it. We are, in reality, a third sex, guaranteed some rights, some of the time, in some of the states, but never assured that whatever rights we are afforded will be honored from one state to the next, or by the federal government.

How the status quo came about…

In a few words, we allowed it to happen. After years of living discreetly, going about our business, drawing as little attention as possible, all of a sudden we found ourselves in the public forefront. Television documentaries blared the "sex change" specials across the screens of the nation, more often than not missing the mark and focusing on the sensational, while seldom touching on the issues at hand. The gay and lesbian organizations absorbed us into their ranks, destroying the discretion we guarded for so many years. The term "<transgender>" was adapted and used to encompass the entire spectrum of those who have any alternate form of gender expression. Gender law advocates joined the bandwagon pressing for special rights and anti discrimination legislation for any who fell under the transgender umbrella. Each and every one of these events further diluted our ranks and hindered our quest for legitimacy.

What we advocate…

What we at Federal Gender Recognition…NOW advocate can be reduced to one basic item…we want federal legislation legitimizing and recognizing the surgically reassigned gender of post operative transsexuals, guaranteeing them the same rights and protection, in each and every state, uniformly, as that of any other person of our gender and we want this legislation to be separate, independent, and in no way whatsoever associated with any other gay, lesbian or <transgender> effort.


The Gender Rights Debate....

A very large proportion of the post operative transsexual community identify as homosexual, either gay or lesbian, i.e., a male to female post operative transsexual will be sexually attracted to another female; more often than not, this involvement will be with yet another post operative transsexual. Though there are admittedly small population studies that support this, within the transsexual community it is common knowledge that the percentage of post operative transsexuals identifying as homosexual/lesbian is significantly above that of those residing in their natal sex. This group, admittedly and openly gay, is justifiably concerned with legislation that protects and furthers the rights of those that are gay. That is admirable and we support both them and their efforts.

But with the above said, those of us of whom are heterosexual, myself included, feel completely left out of the gender debate. We have no desire to "come out". We cringe when we see yet another documentary or movie "get it wrong" and want nothing to do with those productions. Though we sympathize with our lesbian sisters, we see their plight as a GLB issue, one that not only can't we empathize with, but more importantly, one that doesn't apply to us. Our goal is to have our gender reassignment, change our birth certificates and identification, and then blend into society as best we can as just another female...another heterosexual female, with the same rights as any other female in America. We do not desire special rights per se to be legislated for us, rights that more often than not are slipped into the same laws that apply to homosexuals and those who chose an alternate form of gender expression. We do not desire to be "protected" by legislation that sets us aside as some special case, in certain jurisdictions, and then hailed as a victory by the gender advocacy organizations. Simply put, we do not see ourselves as "special" at all. One who is legitimately transsexual is the opposite sex of that in which they were physically born, by medical cliché as it may sound, the only issue we have is a birth defect which, after we complete a long and arduous medical and psychological protocol known as the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association's Standards of Care, can and is, routinely corrected through surgery. The notion that we are "special" is foreign to us. We don't want attention and are not inclined to march in the streets for rights we feel we should already have by nature of being female in the first place. As we are not homosexual, and aside from having the same sympathy one might have for any other group that is discriminated against, we can not identify with gay issues. Many of us do not even support same-sex marriage. Almost to the person, most of us resent being grouped under the "<transgender>" umbrella along with crossdressers, transvestites and others who express their gender in an alternate manner. Though largely sympathetic to GLB issues, we resent having our rights associated with that movement. And even more so, we feel that the rights we do have are being put in jeopardy and will possibly be rolled back as the GLB groups continue to associate us to them as though we are one and the same. We feel that is putting us under a limelight we do not wish to be in and never asked for. To say that a heterosexual post operative transsexual feels disenfranchised would be gross understatement. We feel abandoned. If there was a gender recognition debate, we feel completely left out of it. Lastly, though we are for the most part supportive of the gay community, we do not, however, accept the premise that "if it's good for the GLB, it's good for transsexuals" and do not buy into the "strength with numbers" argument at all. For example, there is law on the books of virtually every state in the union with regards to changing our birth certificate once we have had gender reassignment surgery, legislation that goes back forty years or more in some cases. The GLB movement had nothing at all to do with passing that legislation. The state legislation that led to either the changing or amending of a post operative transsexual's birth certificate was for the most part done "under the radar", without a huge public debate, and with no help from, or association with, the gay community…and that is how we feel it should be. No, our issues are not the issues of the GLB movement; we do not need the GLB numbers to accomplish our goals nor do we wish their representation on any level.

Though our group is not for the special rights legislation mentioned above - legislation that set's us aside in specific jurisdictions under certain circumstances - there is one piece of legislation we would like to see passed. We would like to see federal legislation similar to Britain's Gender Recognition Act, or Australia's Gender Recognition Bill. We are for one and only one piece of legislation with regards to post operative transsexuals and that is federal legislation recognizing and affirming our gender as well as guaranteeing us the same rights as any other natal female in the United States. Legislation on the federal level, guaranteeing us the same rights as natal females would eliminate the need for localized "special rights" laws prohibiting some obscure discrimination that is generally futile. These laws do little or nothing but allow some attorney or gender advocacy organization to proclaim "victory" in an isolated case. For example, I live in Dallas. There is an ordinance here that precludes discrimination due to "gender expression". In the several year history of that law, there has been only one case in which it was even invoked. It would be naïve to think there has only been one case of discrimination in that category here. Localized legislation, undoubtedly, helps on the individual case, but in our opinion it "wins the battle but loses the war" when it comes to the larger issue of legitimate gender recognition for post operative transsexuals. Further, as this type of legislation is almost always attached or associated with gay rights, not only do we not see this as helping, but actually hurting our quest for gender recognition by lumping us into the same category as the GLB, crossdressers and others who are not transsexual yet want to express a different lifestyle or express themselves in some form of alternate gender role. That is attention we do not want. From a medical, social, and legal viewpoint, there are transsexuals, specifically post operative transsexuals, and then crossdressers, transvestites and everyone else who feels a need to present in the gender of the opposite sex of which they were born. We sympathize with those other groups' needs and issues, but the issues they have are not ours. We do not want to have certain rights in one state that are not recognized should we move to another. We desire federal legislation that will legitimize our gender change and guarantee us the same rights as any other female regardless of what state we are in.

Such a federal gender recognition law would set us aside from the gay movement, as we should be. It would set us aside from the crossdressers and others that consider themselves <transgender> we need to be for we are no more related to them than water is to a piece of steel. It would prevent certain states from prohibiting our marriage and defining us as something less than female, not to mention precluding us from the same-sex marriage debate. In short, a federal gender recognition law would do one thing and one thing only. It would guarantee us the same rights and privileges as any other female in our country by recognizing that we are legitimately female and protecting us under legislation that already exists with regards to discrimination based on sex.

So far, we have seen no such discussion that addresses a comprehensive gender recognition law here in the United States. Is there a reason for this? If Australia and the United Kingdom can institute such laws and have them in place already, why is it that the gender law advocacy organizations in the United States do not even discuss such legislation much less actively campaign for it? If there is some heretofore undisclosed discussion on the gender advocacy organizations' agenda to address this, we don't see it on their web sites…take look for your self. We do, however, see "GLBT" every where we look…but that is a direct association we do not support. If there is some form of national discussion on such a comprehensive law, it is way, way at the bottom of the importance list. Obviously...that is not something we can accept any longer.

As a group, we are organizing. We have become more than a little frustrated with the path that those who are supposedly our advocates are taking with regards to this issue. Our advocates appear to be much more attuned to the needs of the GLB movement than they are to those of us who are post operative transsexual. It seems that more and more the issues taken on by our advocates are related to assigning us as some third sex rather than approaching things from a more comprehensive perspective and addressing our needs at the very root...that we are simply female, and should be recognized as such with the same rights as any other female, no matter where we are physically residing in the nation. The vast majority of states with no help from the GLB and gender advocates have taken it upon themselves years ago to take a major step in that direction with legislation that allows us to change, or have amended, our birth certificates...and generally speaking, this was done under the radar, without any fanfare. Wouldn't the next logical step in that regards be federal legislation that recognizes our legitimacy...and guarantees us the same rights as others of our gender in all states? We think it is.

I mention above that we are for the most part not political or militant in our approach...and that is true…at least at the moment. But also, as I have mentioned, we are getting, for lack of a better phrase, fed up, with what we see as the focus of gender advocacy here in the United States. It seems that the proposed legislation affecting us that we see is somehow attached to legislation that either sets us apart as "special" or associates us with the gay movement. That is not acceptable to us any longer. Every law that is passed for the "<transgender>" groups lumps us in with crossdressers, transvestites and others who have an alternate gender expression but of whom are not transsexual; post operative transsexuals have nothing in common with them. That is not acceptable either. And each and every bit of legislation that is passed under the guise of "protecting" our rights, in the long run, does nothing to further our overall quest to be recognized as legitimate females anywhere and everywhere within all of the United States. And, of course, that is unacceptable as well. To date, we have been silent, and have not actively taken on these issues. We have waited to see when our so called "community" and the gender advocacy organizations that supposedly represent us would address them. We have waited patiently to see when our gender advocacy organizations would make distinctions between us, as post operative transsexuals, and those who crossdress. This distinction has not been forthcoming…or even discussed, much less addressed in any manner. That is also unacceptable. Continually we see the gays, lesbians, bisexual, crossdressers, drag queens, transvestites and transsexuals all lumped into one big group. We do not accept this association. Those of us that are post operative transsexual have very specific issues that have nothing to do with the issues of any of the every level, transsexual issues and the GLB/crossdressing issues are no more related than a giraffe is to an ear of corn. The lack of attention to our specific needs on a national level has become so lacking that many of our group are to the point of forcing the issue… not upon our legislators, but on both the gender advocacy groups and the GLB movement. We are to the point of considering not only withholding our support of legislation that furthers GLB/<transgender> issues, but actively campaigning against the passing of such laws. We are so fed up and frustrated with the GLB and gender advocacy organizations including us carte blanc in GLB/crossdressing legislation while ignoring any overall federal comprehensive gender recognition law, that we are considering actively expressing to the legislators that we want absolutely no part in it and actively campaigning against any association. We hope we do not have to polarize things in such a manner, but we demand our position be heard.

In closing, I want to say that the work that our advocacy organizations are doing for the GLB movement and the non-transsexual <transgender> is admirable. We do not support discrimination on any level towards any group. We would not like to take a tact that I mention above. But their issues are not ours…and ours are not being addressed. Just as they will do what they must for their gain…we will as well…no matter what. We are tired or being ignored and, in general, have about come to the point of "if you are not for us, you are against us". We want our advocacy groups to endorse, actively campaign for, and place at the front of their agenda open support for federal legislation legitimizing and recognizing the gender of post operative and only post operative transsexuals, guaranteeing us the same rights and protection, in each and every state, uniformly, as that of any other person of our gender. Further, we want this legislation to be separate, independent, and in no way whatsoever associated with any other GLB or <transgender> effort.

We welcome and solicit the nonaligned support of any group or organization, the GLB and crossdressing community, those who are straight, and any other person, male or female. If you agree with us, let us know.

Tell anyone who asks that you support...Gender Recognition...NOW

Tell everyone you support GRN.

Our Mission…

Our mission is to see federal legislation similar to Britain's Gender Recognition Act, or Australia's Gender Recognition Bill enacted. We are for one and only one piece of legislation with regards to post operative transsexuals and that is federal legislation recognizing, legitimizing, and affirming our surgically reassigned gender as well as guaranteeing us the same rights as any other natal female or male in the United States.
That…is our mission.



Teri Anne

Re: TS Defamation League - TSDL
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2005, 09:41:33 pm »
Leigh, truly amazing post.  Thank you.  I imagine you've been working on this idea of a Gender Recognition Act for some time.  You, in detail, have laid out many of the things I've felt, particularly the stuff about how our TS rights are tied closely with transgender or GLB groups (we appreciate the strength in numbers argument but think that some things are TS and TS alone).  While everyone should have rights, the GENDER RECOGNITION we seek has nothing to do with the needs of the drag queen community.  And that community can harm our goals because society presumes their gender bending is just games and frivolous.  What we have gone through to get to where we are is like going through war...there's intense pain, sacrifice, and even suicide.  We are transition veterans.

Your post was fabulous as a mission statement.  Unfortunately, it wasn't as specific about the HOW - how do we accomplish this?  Perhaps one of your posts can bring us up to date as to whether any individual or group has tried getting a Gender Recognition Act before congress.  I suggested that we need to join forces as an INTERNET-BASED WEBSITE.  Whether Susan and those in power here would want to work towards that, you all will have to tell me.  The best part about the internet, as we've discussed in posts already, is that those who wish to stay as WOMEN (without outing themselves as post op TS's) would still be able to participate. 

I think that a TS WEBSITE could do a lot of things for our group. 

(1) Legislation - we could send emails and (for those who can afford it) gather money
(2) Build a world TS history, more like a REGISTRY (so you could only vote once).  Many of us would like to know if most of the post ops are now considered gay or straight...we don't have any accurate count.  We'd like to know if various things we've undergone are rated good or bad.  For example, no one has ever done, to my knowledge, a follow up on how satisfied we were with our operations.  Some, due to surgeon's techniques, are not orgasmic.  It'd be nice to know.  In a world website, we could vote on whether we're happy we transitioned, another thing that people presume is 99% happy, but who really knows?  The voting in Susan's is fine but, in the current setup (I think?)  there is no continuing counter (like what the national debt is, or how many people killed in war, etc).  Perhaps some TG will decide not to be TS if it turns out that there are negatives that are thought now but not vocalized.  I would guess that many TG's have no idea that one of the hardest things in transition, even harder than the operation, is electrolysis.
(3) Build a sense of what we're about and what we want to do.  To a great extent, Susan's Place does this beautifully, but until Susan comes out with a book called say, "GENDER TALKS AT SUSAN'S," none of the outside world will know what's important to us (I'd buy it!).  Talking with each other brings us back to point one, trying to build a consensus and plan of action on how to get legislation passed.

You recommend that it be a national Gender Rights Act but, as I'm sure you know, there are a lot of blue states out there who think we're an abomination.  I've heard that, oddly, it may have been easier to transition a few decades ago before everyone saw TG's on television every other day.  When you looked at someone who appeared to be a woman, you assumed it was a woman...end of story.

The only downside of what you propose in the Gender Rights Act, for me, is that I apparently can marry a woman now (I'm M2F) but won't be able to, after the act is passed.  I know it's a gay issue, but that's something, too, that will have to be discussed.  Maybe some of us will want to keep that right of marrying a woman we love.  And there possibly goes half the votes in our TS group for the Gender Rights Act.

The ACLU would seemingly be a natural to get the ball rolling on the Gender Rights Act.  Are they interested?  What's happening?  Thanks again, Leigh, for informing us.  Interesting!

Teri Anne


Re: TS Defamation League - TSDL
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2005, 10:10:22 pm »

Could you clarify a couple of points that I'm not sure about.:

1. Would this TS Website be an international one or one geared towards the US?
2. When you say "our group" are you referring to TS worldwide or in the US?

I'm just a little confused as Susan's by it's membership is international, and it seems that the site you are proposing would be for US interests especially when talking about
a national Gender Rights Act
a lot of blue states
The ACLU would seemingly be a natural to get the ball rolling on the Gender Rights Act.




Re: TS Defamation League - TSDL
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2005, 10:17:16 pm »

I am sure that leigh will be happy to take credit for this.  Coincidentally it is another Leigh who gets it.  I will post the website when it is up and running.

As you can tell from the tone, its rights as a woman in a heterosexual world thay are advocating for which does nothing for me.  This is why I devote my time and energy now to the G&L.  If I has every single right that a het woman has I still could not marry another woman.  Yes I could play the natal birth card and they would have no choice but to acknowlege it as legal but that isn't who I am.

I posted earlier--its numbers, power and $$$--and they are just not there but I applaud the efforts.  For years I never supported the HRC until they started including T issues in things like ENDA.

All of us have to take a stand somewhere.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2005, 11:37:15 pm by Leigh »

Teri Anne

Re: TS Defamation League - TSDL
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2005, 11:41:25 pm »
Leigh -Yes, the HRC seems to be a good group.  And I like their "=" symbol on their car bumper stickers. "=" says a lot.

Steph - What I would picture would be, like "Doctors Without Borders," an INTERNATIONAL TS group.  We're a small enough group - let's not limit ourselves to one country.  If Americans wanted to get together to accomplish American goals (like the national Gender Rights Act), there could be a room or post site for that.  The benefit of having an international TS website is that TS's in different countries could learn what works, what doesn't.  The website would direct people on where to send emails, money.

But I'm easy.  If people want an American TS group, that's fine.  The main thing is to get the ball rolling.  I've noticed, sometimes, that friends will casually say, "We should get together."  Most of the time people just respond, "Yes, we should."  I'm more the type who asks, "When?"

Offline Dennis

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Re: TS Defamation League - TSDL
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2005, 05:23:07 pm »
As you can tell from the tone, its rights as a woman in a heterosexual world thay are advocating for which does nothing for me.  This is why I devote my time and energy now to the G&L.  If I has every single right that a het woman has I still could not marry another woman.  Yes I could play the natal birth card and they would have no choice but to acknowlege it as legal but that isn't who I am.

Come to Canada Leigh, we could do with more people like you :) Plus you could marry the chick o' yer dreams.



Re: TS Defamation League - TSDL
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2005, 11:16:50 pm »
Find me a job and I am on the way. 

I still have some Loonies and Toonies from my last trip up.

Do I have to say A all the time though?  There are other letters in the alphabet that are more fun  :D