Author Topic: Gender change as a body mod  (Read 26774 times)

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Offline Nero

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Re: Gender change as a body mod
« Reply #80 on: October 10, 2007, 04:15:21 am »
What a debate! Apparently I've been missing all the good stuff. :icon_sniff:

As to the reason, right now curiosity, I'll honestly admit that I haven't seriously reviewed my motivation yet, more important to me right now is to consider can it be done, what are the risks, and is there anyone who can do it. If the answer to any of those makes it impossible, then motivation is not really important, now is it? After finding that out, then we can decide whether we really want to, and why, no?

The MOTIVATION for this is very important. You need to search your soul before even considering 'body modification' of this magnitude. I really can't comprehend how a man would even be interested in genital modification.
As someone mentioned earlier, about going from man to transman - it's an entirely different thing.
I do love and accept my genitals as part of me, but I would never have CHOSEN to be a man with female or otherwise ambiguous genitalia. The motivation for a man to have any type of SRS completely escapes me.
Have you considered that you may have gender issues? That you may in fact be androgyne?
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.

Caroline

Re: Gender change as a body mod
« Reply #81 on: October 10, 2007, 04:32:43 am »
I quite know it isn't about you but since you asked how I know.  It was on your profile (androgyne, now I remember well).  I have also read posts from you & now the GRS issue where you implied that GRS is elective.  A TS (true TS) would never make a comparison of such magnitude because it's offensive to TS peeps.  There are peeps that do, but they are NON-TS and mostly hold transphobic, prejudiced viewpoints against trans women.

Hmm so if somebody who thinks they are TS holds (for example) the opinion that ALL surgery (barring the situations where you're rushed into hospital unconscious) is elective (as I said earlier you can refuse surgery for cancer, it just often has severe consequences) then they must not be a 'true TS'?   There are plenty of ways that people could define elective that are not bigoted towards TS people.

Butterfly

Re: Gender change as a body mod
« Reply #82 on: October 10, 2007, 04:49:45 am »
Severe consequences.  ~laugh~  what could be more severe than living a life in the wrong body?  If peeps cannot grasp what I just said, they will not understand me, so my efforts in trying to make myseff understood are going to be fruitless.  This is what I meant by "true TS".  I didn't invent it by the way.  It's a very recognizable term among therapists and specialists in GID.  Having GID doesn't make anyone TS, it only makes them "gender dysphoric",  Having the symptoms & meeting the criteria for the diagnosis does.  GRS is only approved for severe cases of GID. There are peeps like
OJ who got away with murder.  I'm sure there are some peeps that get away with GRS without meeting the diagnosis too. 

Caroline

Re: Gender change as a body mod
« Reply #83 on: October 10, 2007, 05:02:00 am »
Severe consequences.  ~laugh~  what could be more severe than living a life in the wrong body?  If peeps cannot grasp what I just said, they will not understand me, so my efforts in trying to make myseff understood are going to be fruitless.  This is what I meant by "true TS".  I didn't invent it by the way.  It's a very recognizable term among therapists and specialists in GID.  Having GID doesn't make anyone TS, it only makes them "gender dysphoric",  Having the symptoms & meeting the criteria for the diagnosis does.  GRS is only approved for severe cases of GID. There are peeps like
OJ who got away with murder.  I'm sure there are some peeps that get away with GRS without meeting the diagnosis too. 

So having GID doesn't make one TS but GRS is approved in terms of the severity of somebodies GID?  Great news then, because I want SRS because of my severe GID but from what I've read in this thread I'll be damned if I ever want to be labelled as a "true TS"

Offline cindybc

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Re: Gender change as a body mod
« Reply #84 on: October 10, 2007, 06:00:46 am »
I called this corrective surgery in an earlier post as necessary to remove a deformity.  That is my own opinion, maybe not politically correct, but it is my way of explaining how I feel about it

Andra calls it XY chromosomes, where's the physical deformity there?  Isn't the real deformity having XY chromosomes and a female mind?

OK, either way for me it was torture to just continue living the way I was and coming out or not coming out was not an option. Three years later I got SRS. I live in Canada and there are two provinces with health insurance that will pay for the surgery as they do not consider it a cosmetic procedure.  It is considered to be necessary surgery to alleviate. GID.

Cindy   

 

RebeccaFog

Re: Gender change as a body mod
« Reply #85 on: October 10, 2007, 07:53:50 am »
   Hi RedJack,

   I think some of the more practical issues you face would be finding a qualified surgeon who would perform the surgery.  As I said, there are some risks.  So, finding a surgeon is probably your largest problem just to begin with.  As I stated earlier, there are many possible risks.  You would not want to try anything that is not 100% USDA approved.
   Also, I think I read where it would cost about $17,000 in the US and maybe $8,000 in some foreign countries.

   Another thing that you are not hearing here is that even if you have a vagina, it is not care free.  A whole lot of work goes into keeping it healthy and from closing up on you (from what I've read).
   It's not like a tattoo that you can just get it then forget it.  Even if you have to pay attention to piercings, it's not the same thing.

Just something to think about.


Rebis

RedJack

Re: Gender change as a body mod
« Reply #86 on: October 10, 2007, 07:58:41 am »
I'll ask that the thread be left open a bit more so I can reply when I'm in a more intelligent state of mind, I just finished a 12 hour shift at a new job, and have been up for nearly 24, so forming an intelligent statement is currently beyond my ability, though there are a few things I'd like to reply to. After some sleep I'll reply.

Jessica

Re: Gender change as a body mod
« Reply #87 on: October 10, 2007, 09:24:45 am »
It's simple.

Presuming you're sane.

Get The Legislation OFF MY Body.

As soon as you allow and agree with others establishing rules over an individual's own body, where it doesn't hurt or affect anyone else, you set a precedent to allow that to happen.

I don't care whether you agree with it, or disagree with it.
The fact is, if it hurts no one else and you are sane, NO ONE should be able to establish rules over YOUR body.

99% of America will NEVER understand us.
They have, and will continue to try and create legislature to establish what we can and can't do with our own body because they feel that what we are doing is wrong.

And some of you have the AUDACITY to turn around and DO THE EXACT SAME!!!

That defies reason. 
There is a word for it. 
It's called Hypocrisy.

Jessica

Nona

Re: Gender change as a body mod
« Reply #88 on: October 10, 2007, 09:43:23 am »
It is hilarious to hear people who would've been classed as insane not too many years ago talking about how other people are 'weird'

Kate

Re: Gender change as a body mod
« Reply #89 on: October 10, 2007, 09:46:09 am »
Presuming you're sane.

Get The Legislation OFF MY Body.

That IS the problem: determining which motives are sane. Should we let someone who wants to cut off their arm go ahead with it as long as they sign a waiver?

Now I'm not saying that wanting to "streamline" one's genitals is THAT extreme, but still... it's an unusual enough request to warrant a looksee into the motives behind it... or is it?

Yes, I know people are calling anyone who shows restraint here "hypocritical" and unsupportive. But is unquestioning support for ANY desire/need truly in everyone's best interest?

~Kate~

Offline Lisbeth

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Re: Gender change as a body mod
« Reply #90 on: October 10, 2007, 09:59:31 am »
If you'd really like for me to point out the obvious,  SRS/GRS IS in many cases cutting a healthy body 'to pieces'.
Coming from someone who ISN'T TS, your statement doesn't surprise me at all.  A person who is not TS would need to be born again, have severe GID, live their lives in the wrong body in order to understand that GRS is not what you implied, so I don't blame you for thinking as you do.
i concord.  that statement is very inflammatory.  it's the same garbage we hear from surgeons and ppl that consider grs to be 'elective' or 'cosmetic'.  well put.  if you ain't ts, you don't know & will never know.  btw that applies to ppl that 'believe' they are ts too.  believing you are ts doesnt make you ts., capiche?
Some people equate "body modification" with amputation and disfigurement.  It's not.  Getting your ears pierced is body modification.  Breast enhancement is body modification.  Fixing a cleft lip is body modification.

GRS is body modification, but it is not "cutting a healthy body to pieces."  It is changing from normal male appearance to normal female appearance.  The kind of attitude implied by "cutting a healthy body to pieces" is that males are the norm and females are incomplete or deficient.  No way!
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html

Jessica

Re: Gender change as a body mod
« Reply #91 on: October 10, 2007, 10:00:19 am »
Quote
determining which motives are sane

I could not disagree more.

It is not up to ANYONE to determine the motivations or actions.
Who would decide that? Society?

Let me give you an example.
Nose Rings.
Personally, I think they're horrible, they look bad, they damage good tissue, etc.
I bet if I were to take a poll of all people over 18 (voting age) across all of America on what percentage of people would get nose rings that the people who would not get a nose rings would far outweigh the people who would.

So, lets say 10% of people would get them, 90% would not.

Therefore, one must conclude that nose rings are outside what is "Normal"
Therefore, obviously that behavior (getting a nose ring) is deviant from the social norm.
We should therefore conclude that people should not be able to get them because:
1. Most people would not get them.
2. It damages healthy tissue.
3. Outside of appearance it serves no function.

Therefore, that behavior, according to the normal, is not really sane.

The issue is not with the behavior.  It's with the individual.

The question is "Is this person sane, ie. Does he or she have the Right to make decisions regarding his or her own life?"

Determine whether the INDIVIDUAL is sane or not.
If the PERSON is sane then they have the RIGHT to make decisions regarding their life and liberty.

If you analyze the behaviors then you suppress the individual's right to do ANYTHING outside of what is 'socially acceptable.'

RebeccaFog

Re: Gender change as a body mod
« Reply #92 on: October 10, 2007, 01:01:28 pm »
Presuming you're sane.

Get The Legislation OFF MY Body.

That IS the problem: determining which motives are sane. Should we let someone who wants to cut off their arm go ahead with it as long as they sign a waiver?

Now I'm not saying that wanting to "streamline" one's genitals is THAT extreme, but still... it's an unusual enough request to warrant a looksee into the motives behind it... or is it?

Yes, I know people are calling anyone who shows restraint here "hypocritical" and unsupportive. But is unquestioning support for ANY desire/need truly in everyone's best interest?

~Kate~

    You're right about looking into the motives.  Not only for us but for Redjack.  I think he described his motives fairly well, but didn't seem to get too much below the surface in terms of how he feels.  I guess the feminine in me needs some emotional connection beyond "it would look cool".
    I'm on the side of restraint.  I just don't think it's my business to judge someone for doing something that wouldn't appeal to me.  There are many cultures and there are many ways of living one's life.  I really do believe that the best support we can give in this case is the information that was requested.  I believe that once the details are available to redjack that he will make a decision which is wisest in his own judgment.

   By the way, I went to that webpage that was made available concerning the man in the UK who did all of his own genital modification and I nearly vomited part of the way down into the interview.
   I understand that this kind of thing is a subculture I don't understand, but I hope to god I never see or hear of such a thing again.


Rebis

Offline Alison

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Re: Gender change as a body mod
« Reply #93 on: October 10, 2007, 01:18:58 pm »
Severe consequences.  ~laugh~  what could be more severe than living a life in the wrong body?  If peeps cannot grasp what I just said, they will not understand me, so my efforts in trying to make myseff understood are going to be fruitless.  This is what I meant by "true TS".  I didn't invent it by the way.  It's a very recognizable term among therapists and specialists in GID.  Having GID doesn't make anyone TS, it only makes them "gender dysphoric",  Having the symptoms & meeting the criteria for the diagnosis does.  GRS is only approved for severe cases of GID. There are peeps like
OJ who got away with murder.  I'm sure there are some peeps that get away with GRS without meeting the diagnosis too. 

What could be more severe then living a life in the wrong body?  Oh I dunno... living a life in a body that is wasting away to cancer?  I'd say that is also fairly severe. 

I don't understand your POV that only "True TS" 'deserve' SRS.  I would think anyone who gets clearance from their respective doctors/therapists and desires the surgery (more on this down a bit) should be entitled to pay their dime and accomplish their goals.

Quote
The MOTIVATION for this is very important. You need to search your soul before even considering 'body modification' of this magnitude. I really can't comprehend how a man would even be interested in genital modification.
As someone mentioned earlier, about going from man to transman - it's an entirely different thing.
I do love and accept my genitals as part of me, but I would never have CHOSEN to be a man with female or otherwise ambiguous genitalia. The motivation for a man to have any type of SRS completely escapes me.
Have you considered that you may have gender issues? That you may in fact be androgyne?

Nero has a good point... (though I won't take guesses to your gender identity).. It is important to really examine why you'd want to make this drastic a change.  TS's have to go through what is called "Real life test" in which they live as their chosen gender for at least a full year.  The reason this restriction is in place is to hopefully help limit the situation where the surgery is completed only to be discovered later the individual made a mistake.  Obviously if you have no GID there isn't anything to "test" during "real life test" but none the less I'd suggest waiting at <i>least</i> a year before making this big a change.  This surgery is for all intents and purposes <b> irreversable</b>.

Quote
Another thing that you are not hearing here is that even if you have a vagina, it is not care free.  A whole lot of work goes into keeping it healthy and from closing up on you (from what I've read).
   It's not like a tattoo that you can just get it then forget it.  Even if you have to pay attention to piercings, it's not the same thing.

Rebis also has a good point that you're talking about a <b> lifetime</b> of aftercare.  Just again, not a decision to be made lightly.


And I think everyone here should watch a few episodes of <b> Taboo </b> on the National Geographic Channel ;)

(eddited to fix coding error)

no_id

Re: Gender change as a body mod
« Reply #94 on: October 10, 2007, 01:23:15 pm »
There is also some interesting discussion here. Gonna give it till morning and see what happens to it.

Dennis

With all due respect Dennis, although some discussion points may be interesting, they become insignificant when followed by a trail of bickering. One post provokes another,  then there's the stepping on toes, and somewhere along the line as the pissing-contest continues not a soul will give an actual damn anymore about the 'few interesting points' made.

You can't hold a debate or discussion over a topic when there isn't an objective foundation for argumentation. Then there is only subjectivity/opinion, and side-topics that sometimes do not even qualify as such are emphasised.

As Wing Walker pointed out nicely; I have yet to see the intelectual opinion of a qualified physician, and likewise the opinion as well as sharing of information through experience by an individual who actually practices the initial topic. (However, forgive me if I missed the last one since I'm not that thrilled anymore to read each post in depth: watching wrestling on the tele takes less time.)

That said, I don't care who slaughters who; if that's the thrillpill some people like to pop then that's their business. It's just a pity it has to be in public.

RedJack

Re: Gender change as a body mod
« Reply #95 on: October 10, 2007, 04:47:05 pm »
Back to the original topic, I would say the risk would be infertility. Testes don't function well in higher temperatures.
Dennis

Nods, "This was an expected short coming, and not considered an issue, an obvious preplanning solution would be to bank a sample just in case. My greater worry is will there be any other problems than that from exposing the testes to a body temperature environment over the long term."

   I understand that RedJack (if that's his real name - [/snicker]) is male. However, I also believe that the most likely way to dissuade him in the event that he really is way of track, is to help inform him.

   I did see pictures of an MtF who had their testes implanted up into the lower abdomen, however, from my experience (don't ask) that is a good way to feel like you've been kicked there when, or if, you ever fool around with another person again.  The last place you would ever want your testes is in your abdomen or any other place where they may receive unwelcome and unexpected pressure.  In my opinion.

  Other reasons in my view that you may not want to have such severe body mod performed on your genitals is that there is the possibility that you'll lose sexual sensation and the possibility that if the wrong thing is nicked, and I'm talking about things we haven't discussed like the urethra, you could end up with lifelong discomfort or even pain.
  In the case of having a vagina installed, there is also the possibility of having a nick of some kind that allows feces to leak into your body.
  I am not making this up.  If I'm wrong, then someone should correct me, however, these are facts that I've read about during all of my personal research.

  There is also the reversibility issue where you may decide that you want to have children with someone.  I guess if your testes are working, you can always have sperm taken in a lab, but how are you going to explain this to your partner?  Which kind of leads up to the notion of how are you going to begin a relationship with someone?  Full disclosure up front, or spring it as a surprise?
  Also, is this the way you really want to live?  It may sound cutting edge, but what kind of people do you hang out with?  Are they going to know?  At some time, if you ever have a physical relationship, it's probably going to get out.  I guess there's the possibility that you'll just tell everyone who'll listen, but maybe you should go around and pretend that you are doing that when you see the people you associate with.

  As for me, whatever you want is your own business and is fine with me. I just feel that this thread has been missing the point that the 'can it be done' question applies to your self esteem and mental health as much as it applies to the physical aspect.

Rebis

Male yes, but no, Red Jack is not my name, but probably the oldest name I've gone by online, consider it a bit of protection, a bit of anonymity to hide behind while I question, think and consider what's going through my mind, a way to wash my hands of it should I not only decide not to do this in the future, but like to distance m'self from the fact that I even thought it.

That was my initial thought on implanting the testes there, it didn't seem like the most practical of placements.

This is the kind of information I was looking for, thanks. Basically its easy to go 'gee, that looks interesting, why don't I?' Its a lot harder to find out the upside and downside of doing it, and its definitely something that requires serious thought, in many ways on par with what members of this forum are going through, which is another reason to bring it here.

Full disclosure is a definite, and as you can see I answered the reproductive question. As to the rest here, definitely food for thought, thank you.

The MOTIVATION for this is very important. You need to search your soul before even considering 'body modification' of this magnitude. I really can't comprehend how a man would even be interested in genital modification.
As someone mentioned earlier, about going from man to transman - it's an entirely different thing.
I do love and accept my genitals as part of me, but I would never have CHOSEN to be a man with female or otherwise ambiguous genitalia. The motivation for a man to have any type of SRS completely escapes me.
Have you considered that you may have gender issues? That you may in fact be androgyne?

While the motivation is very important, I guess you could say that I look at it like a construction project, can I build, is it possible to make a serious foundation, before considering whether you should, because if its impossible, there's no point... at least in my opinion.
Chuckles, "I may very well be androgyne, I've never given that much thought, but do know that I'm fairly malleable about what I am, remaining what I am versus changing it like we've discussed here is very much a matter of why not more than anything else, hence the question that started this thread."

   Hi RedJack,

   I think some of the more practical issues you face would be finding a qualified surgeon who would perform the surgery.  As I said, there are some risks.  So, finding a surgeon is probably your largest problem just to begin with.  As I stated earlier, there are many possible risks.  You would not want to try anything that is not 100% USDA approved.
   Also, I think I read where it would cost about $17,000 in the US and maybe $8,000 in some foreign countries.

   Another thing that you are not hearing here is that even if you have a vagina, it is not care free.  A whole lot of work goes into keeping it healthy and from closing up on you (from what I've read).
   It's not like a tattoo that you can just get it then forget it.  Even if you have to pay attention to piercings, it's not the same thing.

Just something to think about.


Rebis

Smiles, "Yes, price was anticipated to be an issue, though I hadn't realized just how high it is. Also I wasn't aware of the care issues involved, thank you."

At this point, we've likely exhausted this topic, at this point its unlikely I'll learn more than I have now (and not just about my question, its been fascinating getting a peek into people's heads here, its even tweaked one of the loose ends in my religious beliefs), so I leave it up to the moderators whether or not this thread remains open.

Thank you all for everything, and once things get settled down with the new job, I'll be exploring the forum, I suspect my motivations and desires will become clear as I learn more. I will leave you all with food for another thread (may have been covered by now), anyone remember when Dolly was cloned? There was an uproar about the concept of cloning people to create a brain dead organ donor. As they would be you physically, organ rejection is obviously minimized if not eliminated, so here's a thought, if that was possible, would it be a good solution for gender reassignment surgery? Obviously ifn we reached the point where we could clone a human being and grow them to an adult stage in a short amount of time, reassigning their gender should be quite simple, so this would represent the ability to have gender reassignment surgery with no rejection and full function, but should it be done?

Thank you all, while I may be quite, I expect I'll be visiting quite a bit from now on.

Doc

Re: Gender change as a body mod
« Reply #96 on: October 13, 2007, 06:36:24 pm »
Quote
Poor Redjack is never going to have his questions answered. 


And which one of us is qualified to give poor Redjack the answers that he (I presume that at least his presentation is male, thus the third-person male pronoun) seeks?

Will the person who has sufficient medical education, experience, licensure, and board or Royal College acceptance please stand up and volunteer to sign-off on Redjack's papers?

Heh. Well, I work for the vet and while standing around assuring that dogs who are being neutered stay in that happy land between awake and dead I have no doubt observed dozens more genital surgeries than your GP. I can't sign off on anything, but I can answer, sort of. Or extrapolate answers, rather.

RedJack, when you were a foetus, your testicles were positioned up in your abdomen. They descended to the scrotum through a structure called the inguinal canal, probably sometime shortly before you were born. This canal is still there, a bundle of stuff (the 'spermatic cord') goes along it. I suspect it would be a snap to widen the distal end of the inguinal canal, stuff your nuts back up there, and close it off so they couldn't drop down again. This actually would be reversable, though they'd have to reconstruct a scrotum for you if you had the original one taken off.

The chances of you finding a surgeon willing to do this just 'cause you think you'd like the look of it are probably about the same as the chances of your testicles retracting into the canal spontaneously. Not likely at all.

When the testicles don't descend fully through said canal, it's called a 'cryptorchid' condition or 'cryptorchidism' which sounds pretty and means 'hidden testicle' in Greek. Using that term as a start for your research might help.

I would assume that artificially creating a cryptorchid condition in you surgically would expose you to the same risks as people who are born that way and never get it corrected. You would lose fertility because the testicles would be too warm all the time for good sperm production. You would increase your risk of testicular cancer by somewhere between four and forty times. You'd be more likely to suffer from inguinal hernias, which is where a bit of your small intestine slips down the inguinal canal to your groin. This is painful and can be life-threatening because said bit of intestine can twist around itself and block your guts and cut off it's own blood supply. You'd also be more likely to suffer testicular torsion, which would be the testicle turning around in the canal, possibly cutting off it's own blood supply and resulting in your testicle turning into a life-threatening lump of dead tissue in your abdomen.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Gender change as a body mod
« Reply #97 on: October 13, 2007, 10:23:15 pm »
Re: Gender change as a body mod

::)

Gender cant be changed but physical sex can.  But GRS isnt a body mod.  it is like breathing air, pumping blood.  In other words, imperative for transsexuals.

Offline Susan

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Re: Gender change as a body mod
« Reply #98 on: October 13, 2007, 11:14:43 pm »
Ok I took a few days to think about this topic and the purposes of this web site before I decided to make a statement on this topic. Here's my opinion and the policy of this web site.

Gender reassignment surgery, for any purpose other than as treatment for Gender Dysphoria, or when used to voluntarily correct intersex conditions is not a valid topic for discussion on this forum.

The only thing I can suggest for those interested in the subject is to take it to a extreme body modification forum. That doesn't mean you can't participate here, however keep in mind that this is a transgender support forum, and as such is not generally sexually oriented.

As such this topic is now locked.
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