Author Topic: Why is Dr Spiegel so popular for FFS?  (Read 11155 times)

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Offline Ypsf09

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Re: Why is Dr Spiegel so popular for FFS?
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2017, 08:10:50 pm »
Rachel Lynn: I am glad that it worked out well for you for the most part. Why was it just a good job but not quite to where you expected. Agree GG is a character. ..but I absolutely love her. She is so confident and courageous. Just curious what do you think about her FFS results without makeup on. Also did your cheek bones give you a rough angular look before the surgery?

Alyssa : I am happy that everything worked out well for you with Dr Spiegel. Agree that having friends and family there makes a huge difference.


Anjaq: Maybe her Warden burg syndrome along with not getting rhinoplasty impacted the results. I agree with you about finding that perfect balance between subtle and aggressive work. But at the same time I think subtle work would not cut it in changing most male faces to female ones. Also regarding most females not having flat forehead,   i often wonder if we transgirls can truly get away with the masculine/androgynous  features that cis girls have. For example in pic below, this indian actress has a more masculine forehead  than the actor himself , yet she is still very gorgeous, feminine  and not manly. Faces are so complicated.

https://www.google.com/search?q=aashiqui&client=ms-android-hms-tmobile-us&source=lnms&prmd=vni&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiMg8f0xsXRAhWJ0FQKHfx0ALEQ_AUICSgD&biw=360&bih=615#tbm=isch&q=aashiqui+mera+dil+tere+liye&imgrc=GP6-b-sdEmde6M%3A


https://www.google.com/search?q=aashiqui+anu+agarwal&client=ms-android-hms-tmobile-us&source=lnms&prmd=vin&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiDq4qny8XRAhXmqFQKHQunAMoQ_AUICCgC&biw=360&bih=615#tbm=isch&q=aashiqui+nazar+ke+samne&imgrc=8TRn_p_lSS5BAM%3A

Mirya

Re: Why is Dr Spiegel so popular for FFS?
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2017, 08:53:34 pm »
But at the same time I think subtle work would not cut it in changing most male faces to female ones. Also regarding most females not having flat forehead,   i often wonder if we transgirls can truly get away with the masculine/androgynous  features that cis girls have.

I agree that subtle is generally not the way to go.  As trans women, we have many other things working against us besides just our face.  The width of our shoulders, the girth of our ribcage, the narrow pelvic bone... and other things like higher than average height, larger than normal fingers, hands, and feet...

But we can't change those things.  We can't get away with some of the masculine features that cis women have because the cards are already stacked against us to begin with.  And so I believe it's better to have a more feminine face than average, to help tip the scales more toward the female side in our overall full-body appearance.

The pioneer of FFS, Dr Ousterhout, subscribed to the more aggressive FFS philosophy.  And so has his successor, Dr Deschamps-Braly.  Dr Zukowski is generally considered a more aggressive FFS surgeon too, and he's been around a really long time as well.  How long has Dr Spiegel been doing FFS surgeries?  Maybe his subtle approach works for some people, but IMO it's better to make a more dramatic change to make a trans woman's face undeniably feminine.

Offline Ypsf09

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Re: Why is Dr Spiegel so popular for FFS?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2017, 09:37:52 pm »
Mirya: I couldn't agree with you anymore. Also a very feminine face could make a slightly/semi masculine body give the overall appearance of sexy but androgynous/semi masculine face on a feminine body can look off.

Dr O's work and approach was truly phenomenal and some of his transformations were magical. Dr Deschamps is pretty amazing too. I got my ffs with him. I have seen some really good results from Dr Z too. I have so much respect for him for doing such good / aggressive work for our community and still being affordable. I also think Dr Harrison Lee does really good work too. I was at his office last November  and saw some amazing results including Nikita dragun, Ella Giselle and Ava Sabrina london.

Offline Alyssa M.

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Re: Why is Dr Spiegel so popular for FFS?
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2017, 12:33:28 am »
It's a little odd, given my experience, to hear Spiegel called subtle, though think I might understand why. Specifically, the areas I mentioned that were my main concerns (brow ridge and chin) are not areas where I think his work is at all subtle. In the case of the brow ridge, I would question anyone who said there's a surgeon less subtle than he is.

Overall I think Spiegel's reputation for subtlety might just come down to his tendency not to recommend procedures he doesn't consider necessary, while others might recommend procedures they see as helpful, even if they aren't necessary per se.
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Offline Dani

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Re: Why is Dr Spiegel so popular for FFS?
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2017, 11:54:40 am »
My FFS surgeon is Dr Mardirosian in Jupiter, Florida. He studied for many years under Dr Spiegel and his results are similar. I feel that they both give a more natural look, different from the more extreme FFS surgeons. I want to blend in, not overwhelm.

I hope this makes sense, since I had surgery 5 days ago.



Offline anjaq

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Re: Why is Dr Spiegel so popular for FFS?
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2017, 08:06:24 am »
Anjaq: Maybe her Warden burg syndrome along with not getting rhinoplasty impacted the results. I agree with you about finding that perfect balance between subtle and aggressive work. But at the same time I think subtle work would not cut it in changing most male faces to female ones. Also regarding most females not having flat forehead,   i often wonder if we transgirls can truly get away with the masculine/androgynous  features that cis girls have. For example in pic below, this indian actress has a more masculine forehead  than the actor himself , yet she is still very gorgeous, feminine  and not manly. Faces are so complicated.

Yes I find it a bit harder to really see everything the same if people are of a different ethnicity or in this case have other special facial features. I also am not always so sure if I could compare lets say asian pre- and post FFS pictures to my own situation - its just different things that play a role there

Of coourse if a face is dead on masculine, subtle changes will not cut it. That is quite true. But I saw a lot of pictures recently of women getting FFS who do not have those very masculine features to such an extent.

I am honestly questioning a bit those almost classic textbook FFS rules. Quite obviously some parts of the face are gendered that are not yet adressed with the typical FFS procedures and those that are adressed are often also more of a spectrum than a binary male/female dimorphism.

I agree that subtle is generally not the way to go.  As trans women, we have many other things working against us besides just our face.  The width of our shoulders, the girth of our ribcage, the narrow pelvic bone... and other things like higher than average height, larger than normal fingers, hands, and feet...

But we can't change those things.  We can't get away with some of the masculine features that cis women have because the cards are already stacked against us to begin with.  And so I believe it's better to have a more feminine face than average, to help tip the scales more toward the female side in our overall full-body appearance.

This is something I am sceptical about, actually. That whole "summa formula". That one can compensate for a large bult and large hands by having a very feminine forehead or tiny nose. I personally believe that doing this too much can actually be odd. A cis woman that is 1m90 tall most likely had some genetic or hormonal component that lead to this size and this often means that her face will not be extremely feminine as well - although this does happen. Now, I do not have those experiences, so I cannot tell, but in my mind I suspect a bit that it could lead in some cases to the same effect that happens with clothes or hairstyle:
When I transitioned almost 20 years ago, most women in the support group were over 40. A lot of them argued in a similar way - they have wide shoulders, narrow hips, low voices, masculine faces etc - so they need more feminine haircuts, used makeup all the time and some of them threw away all pants and only wear skirts and dresses and shoes with heels to compensate for the bodily shortcomings in order to be seen as female. While this worked with some people, it failed with others. And the reason it failed was that this overcompensationa ctually was perceived as such - and then it created actually a divide, the people stared at that androgynous person in those overly feminine dress. At that time I did not follow that way - I actually avoided dresses and acknowledged that my body was still androgynous and so I was dressing more moderately female. I was not misgendered in that state, so it worked well.

So, I am not sure if this is transferrable to FFS, but I think that there is a balance that should be kept. I think part of that "done" look that can be seen in some trans women who had surgeries and also in cis women who had surgeries may be from having something done "by the book" while the rest of the body is not. So one has these 2 or 3 features that are basically perfected according to textbook beauty standards, but the rest of the face or body is not - so those things stick out and are noticed as different. So I think a surgeon should ideally do as much as possible but still have it all look as if it is pplausible to have a person naturally developing this combination of features.


Offline Sophia Sage

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Re: Why is Dr Spiegel so popular for FFS?
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2017, 10:15:02 am »
This is something I am sceptical about, actually. That whole "summa formula". That one can compensate for a large bult and large hands by having a very feminine forehead or tiny nose. I personally believe that doing this too much can actually be odd. A cis woman that is 1m90 tall most likely had some genetic or hormonal component that lead to this size and this often means that her face will not be extremely feminine as well - although this does happen.



Tall women tend to look like ordinary women, they're just bigger in all dimensions.  The proportions, however, stay more or less the same.  Now, they are not paragons of femininity, but they are all decidedly female.  We can tell instantly, despite their size and individually "particular" features.

They all have slightly larger chins, for example, but the mandible itself is still high and tapered.  The first woman on the left has a bit of "character" around the orbits of her eyes, and the second woman has very deep-set eyes, but their foreheads overall are round and smooth -- they don't have a "ridge" to contend with, and the second woman actually has a pretty small nose and chin, proportionally speaking, and a nicely short midface.  The third woman has a very long midface in comparison (look how much her gums are exposed in her smile) and a pretty big nose, too, but a very feminine forehead and cheekbones.  The woman on the right has a big mandible, but all other features are very feminine.

It seems to me that tall women do indeed "compensate" (not intentionally) -- but not all to the same degree. It really depends on what you have to work with in the first place. 

Quote
So, I am not sure if this is transferrable to FFS, but I think that there is a balance that should be kept. I think part of that "done" look that can be seen in some trans women who had surgeries and also in cis women who had surgeries may be from having something done "by the book" while the rest of the body is not. So one has these 2 or 3 features that are basically perfected according to textbook beauty standards, but the rest of the face or body is not - so those things stick out and are noticed as different. So I think a surgeon should ideally do as much as possible but still have it all look as if it is plausible to have a person naturally developing this combination of features.

Balance, proportion, yes.  But the real art is seeing how to go right into the heart of the feminine bell curve and still look "natural" at the same time.  It isn't a matter of being conservative.  It's a matter of aesthetics.  Spiegel might have good technical skills, but I haven't been impressed with his sense of aesthetics.
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Offline Ypsf09

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Re: Why is Dr Spiegel so popular for FFS?
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2017, 12:50:01 am »
It's a little odd, given my experience, to hear Spiegel called subtle, though think I might understand why. Specifically, the areas I mentioned that were my main concerns (brow ridge and chin) are not areas where I think his work is at all subtle. In the case of the brow ridge, I would question anyone who said there's a surgeon less subtle than he is.

Overall I think Spiegel's reputation for subtlety might just come down to his tendency not to recommend procedures he doesn't consider necessary, while others might recommend procedures they see as helpful, even if they aren't necessary per se.

My experience consulting with Dr speigel is exactly the opposite.

Here's his first quote from sept2015:

http://imgur.com/Nad22rK

Quote from facial team n fwb 2016:

http://imgur.com/MNBr8Sl

I ended up going with Dr Deschamps in April 2016. He suggested forehead recountering, rhinoplasty, genioplasty.

I consulted Dr Spiegel again in october 2016 for my second FFS. Here's the quote.

http://imgur.com/QsxbRcr

While MDM, Dr Rossi and Dr Chettwaut only recommended Forehead reconstruction and cheek augmentation for my second Ffs.

I am not trying to say that he was wrong in suggesting those additional procedures, just that in my case he recommended the most out of all the surgeons.

Also, most of his work that I have seen, I felt he could have done more in those specific areas to make the patient look more feminine without looking them fake. Ex in Stef Sanjati's case the forehead setback is very subtle not yielding a feminine forhead, Gigi Gorgeous's chin is still square).


Offline Ypsf09

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Re: Why is Dr Spiegel so popular for FFS?
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2017, 04:04:30 am »
I am honestly questioning a bit those almost classic textbook FFS rules. Quite obviously some parts of the face are gendered that are not yet adressed with the typical FFS procedures and those that are adressed are often also more of a spectrum than a binary male/female dimorphism.


I totally agree with you about the conventional Ffs not being sufficient. I found  Dr Hsieh (craniofacial/maxiofacial FFS surgein in Taiwan) that employs some rather unconventional procedures for FFS. I don't understand Taiwanese but in video below you can see him assessing the patients entire cranial vault(not just the frontal bone) and upper/lower jaw structure as part of the FFS consultation.






This is something I am sceptical about, actually. That whole "summa formula". That one can compensate for a large bult and large hands by having a very feminine forehead or tiny nose. I personally believe that doing this too much can actually be odd. A cis woman that is 1m90 tall most likely had some genetic or hormonal component that lead to this size and this often means that her face will not be extremely feminine as well - although this does happen. Now, I do not have those experiences, so I cannot tell, but in my mind I suspect a bit that it could lead in some cases to the same effect that happens with clothes or hairstyle:
When I transitioned almost 20 years ago, most women in the support group were over 40. A lot of them argued in a similar way - they have wide shoulders, narrow hips, low voices, masculine faces etc - so they need more feminine haircuts, used makeup all the time and some of them threw away all pants and only wear skirts and dresses and shoes with heels to compensate for the bodily shortcomings in order to be seen as female. While this worked with some people, it failed with others. And the reason it failed was that this overcompensationa ctually was perceived as such - and then it created actually a divide, the people stared at that androgynous person in those overly feminine dress. At that time I did not follow that way - I actually avoided dresses and acknowledged that my body was still androgynous and so I was dressing more moderately female. I was not misgendered in that state, so it worked well.


During the course of my transition, I have developed a tendency of examining/analyzing cis women( of all types, shapes and form) very thoroughly and while this has been very beneficial to my transition, one thing I have also realized is we cannot compare ourselves or our individual physical features with them. While a tall cis woman at 1.9 meter height can be undeniably female while carrying a few masculine/androgynous facial features as pointed by Sophia, most tall trans women would not be able to. They would need extra help and this doesn't always mean overdone fake look but maybe something that is naturally undeniably feminine. And I mean just regular feminine, neither androgynous or hyper feminine. But we all know that is a very tricky/tough goal. And this is where the surgeons skills, aesthetics, comfort level become extremely important. A surgeon that can deliver a undeniably female face overall not one that is questionable or androgynous or fake looking. Now I do understand that some transwoman would still have to choose between looking artificially feminine or naturally androgynous. Famous transgender celeb Nina Arsenault talks about this in her autobiography that when all her attempts to look like a regular woman that blends in failed and  she wasn't still passing she decided to go big than to go home. And hence her current exaggerated look.

I absolutely agree with you about the mindset of trying to camouflage masculine body/face with feminine clothes/makeup/hair. While there are some rare exceptions, generally it does more harm than good. But if those things really worked, our transitions would be so simple. Sigh.

Also regarding your skepticism about the" summa formula", I would like to mention the tall beautiful Amazonian Penny Clifford.

http://imgur.com/omh2B6B

http://imgur.com/s6Nbnp5

She had a lot of surgeries to help her achieve that level of feminity. Does she look odd?  Maybe but more like other very tall cis women that are sometimes considered odd by the society norms but not in any other way. Now if she looked androgynous in the face, no cleavage or narrow hips that would be a different story.

So, I am not sure if this is transferrable to FFS, but I think that there is a balance that should be kept. I think part of that "done" look that can be seen in some trans women who had surgeries and also in cis women who had surgeries may be from having something done "by the book" while the rest of the body is not. So one has these 2 or 3 features that are basically perfected according to textbook beauty standards, but the rest of the face or body is not - so those things stick out and are noticed as different. So I think a surgeon should ideally do as much as possible but still have it all look as if it is pplausible to have a person naturally developing this combination of features.

Sophia explained this in the most perfect manner. Producing a naturally feminine result is matter of surgeons skills and aesthetics and not about being conservative. 

Offline IglooAustralia

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Re: Why is Dr Spiegel so popular for FFS?
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2017, 07:22:48 am »
My experience consulting with Dr speigel is exactly the opposite.

Here's his first quote from sept2015:

http://imgur.com/Nad22rK

Quote from facial team n fwb 2016:

http://imgur.com/MNBr8Sl

I ended up going with Dr Deschamps in April 2016. He suggested forehead recountering, rhinoplasty, genioplasty.

I consulted Dr Spiegel again in october 2016 for my second FFS. Here's the quote.

http://imgur.com/QsxbRcr

While MDM, Dr Rossi and Dr Chettwaut only recommended Forehead reconstruction and cheek augmentation for my second Ffs.

I am not trying to say that he was wrong in suggesting those additional procedures, just that in my case he recommended the most out of all the surgeons.

Also, most of his work that I have seen, I felt he could have done more in those specific areas to make the patient look more feminine without looking them fake. Ex in Stef Sanjati's case the forehead setback is very subtle not yielding a feminine forhead, Gigi Gorgeous's chin is still square).

I know you were thinking of going to Dr. Lee for your 2nd round of FFS, but it seems like you have changed your mind. Just wondering, but how much has he quoted you and why did you change your mind?  :-X

Offline Ypsf09

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Re: Why is Dr Spiegel so popular for FFS?
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2017, 04:02:07 pm »
iglooAustralia,

 Dr Lee is still on my list. My dilemma is wether I should have the two jaw, vline, eye, cheek, forehead surgery in Asia vs the conventional FFS procedures(jaw reduction, genioplasty, forehead shaving, cheek implants) in US. I will most probably end up going to Dr Lee if I choose to stay in US.

Here's his quote.

http://imgur.com/8Lf501d

For my forehead, we had decided to reduce the brow one area and add more volume to the middle/upper forehead using cement.

Offline Rachel

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Re: Why is Dr Spiegel so popular for FFS?
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2017, 06:42:38 pm »
I wrote that Dr. Spiegel did a good job but not what I expected.

 I was with our Finance representative today. She said I do not remember what you looked like. I pulled up an old pic I took the day before the operation. I looked old and very male. Now I look younger and feminine. Someone I saw yesterday that I had not seen before my FFS; after we greeted, I said see I do not look much different. She said you look like your sister. She never saw my sister before. I look like a female version of me.

The fat is used for several reasons. It plumps and makes features very soft and it takes up loose skin. My fat did not take well. 1/31/17 I will send some more pics to Dr. Spiegel. If the fat has not plumped then Carol said he will correct it. I had a lot of work done and perhaps the trauma was too much for the fat to survive. 

I was not prepared to see myself in the mirror when I took off the bandages. I look like a different person. I did not know what I would look like but I had an image of what I wanted to look like. I did not look like the image in my head.

I do not wear makeup. I have plenty but I do not wear it unless I am going to a function. When I put on makeup my face really pops and it looks great. I have had woman stop me and complement my brows, below my eyes, cheek bones, lack of wrinkles, nose (not worked on) and hair (not worked on nor does Spiegel work on hair). I have been called pretty and cute by woman. I had a couple of guys complement  me too. One said I love your cupids bow and your lips look very feminine.

The work was excellent. Good job was not correct. He does not make you look plastic and yes he could do more to make a more dramatic effect. If that is what you want then a frank discussion about expectations is warranted and perhaps a different surgeon used.

If I was to do it again I would have considered PAI. Perhaps including GCS and BA at the same time. Perhaps I would entertain more aggressive work on my mandible.  Really the jowls are the issue and I will have Spiegel correct that then I can accurately access the mandible appearance.

He really nailed my forehead and brows. The forehead lowering was aggressive. The face lift mid and lower were excellent as well as blethopasty (looks like I am wearing eye liner on my lower lid).

My cost after the tax deduction is $36,000. I will have some revision work to meet my satisfaction. I am a very satisfied customer. I recommended a friend to him and she had her FFS last week. She included what I had done and nose work.
HRT  5-28-2013
FT   11-13-2015
FFS   9-16-2016 -Spiegel
GCS 11-15-2016 - McGinn
Hair Grafts 3-20-2017 - Cooley
Voice therapy start 3-2017 - Reene Blaker
Labiaplasty 5-15-2017 - McGinn
BA 7-12-2017 - McGinn
Hair grafts 9-25-2017 Dr.Cooley
Sataloff Cricothyroid subluxation and trachea shave12-11-2017
Dr. McGinn labiaplasty, hood repair, scar removal, graph repair and bottom of  vagina finished. urethra repositioned. 4-4-2018
Dr. Sataloff Glottoplasty 5-14-2018
Dr. McGinn vaginal in office procedure 10-22-2018
Dr. McGinn vaginal revision 2 4-3-2019 Bottom of vagina closed off, fat injected into the labia and urethra repositioned.

Offline IglooAustralia

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Re: Why is Dr Spiegel so popular for FFS?
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2017, 07:14:16 pm »
iglooAustralia,

 Dr Lee is still on my list. My dilemma is wether I should have the two jaw, vline, eye, cheek, forehead surgery in Asia vs the conventional FFS procedures(jaw reduction, genioplasty, forehead shaving, cheek implants) in US. I will most probably end up going to Dr Lee if I choose to stay in US.

Here's his quote.

http://imgur.com/8Lf501d

For my forehead, we had decided to reduce the brow one area and add more volume to the middle/upper forehead using cement.

Sorry stupid question but, did he give you a discount or why are prices lowered? He really is quite pricey, which i was already expecting, but i still don't know if i should go to him for my forehead and nose or to dr. Deschamps. My main concern are my brow ridge and my nose, so i would really like to go to a doctor who does aggressive work on those two areas.. but the problem is, i feel like most ffs surgeons aren't that great with nose jobs. I really did like the results of the forehead work done by dr. Deschamps (well at least the few results i have seen so far), but i'm not that impressed by his noses, especially the way he tries to lift up the tips of droopy noses. Now with dr. Lee i only hear girls praising him, but at the same time i have only seen results of girls who already were really feminine before going to him so.. can't really tell how good he really is.

Offline Ypsf09

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Re: Why is Dr Spiegel so popular for FFS?
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2017, 08:59:45 pm »
Rachel Lynn,

Thanks for the reply. I am glad that you are extremely happy with your outcome. Do you know if PAI can do type 3 forehead reconstruction or just brow one shaving/filling with cement/implant. Also would you be comfortable sharing your before after. If not I still understand.

Igloo,

That's a good question that I myself didn't think about. I didn't ask for the discount. I think they gave me that because I already had FFS before. But I am not sure why, but was glad they did. He is still much cheaper than Dr Spiegel.

Before FFS, I had a feminine face with prominent brow one and sloping forehead. I am impressed with Dr Deschamps in that he gave me a feminine vertically straight forehead without using any bone cement just by aggressively setting back the lower forehead area aka brow one. I love my nose too though I had a small nose to begin with. However I still feel my supra orbital ridge is a bit prominent compared to the glabella region. Dr Lee can be quite aggressive with nose and jaw/chin work. I didn't pay that much attention to his forehead work. In my case Dr Deschamps already did the major work now it's just fixing small stuff in my forehead. You may also want to consider MDM if you want someone really aggressive.

I agree that a lot of Dr Lee girls are feminine to begin with, but I was quite impressed by Caitlyn Jenner and Ella Giselle results given what they started out as.


Offline Rachel

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Re: Why is Dr Spiegel so popular for FFS?
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2017, 05:51:53 pm »
PAI, from what I have read, does type 3 forehead. I did not contact them to verity this. You should look up Warlockmaker's thread on her experience.

I am not comfortable sharing pics. I am not even comfortable looking at my pics.

HRT  5-28-2013
FT   11-13-2015
FFS   9-16-2016 -Spiegel
GCS 11-15-2016 - McGinn
Hair Grafts 3-20-2017 - Cooley
Voice therapy start 3-2017 - Reene Blaker
Labiaplasty 5-15-2017 - McGinn
BA 7-12-2017 - McGinn
Hair grafts 9-25-2017 Dr.Cooley
Sataloff Cricothyroid subluxation and trachea shave12-11-2017
Dr. McGinn labiaplasty, hood repair, scar removal, graph repair and bottom of  vagina finished. urethra repositioned. 4-4-2018
Dr. Sataloff Glottoplasty 5-14-2018
Dr. McGinn vaginal in office procedure 10-22-2018
Dr. McGinn vaginal revision 2 4-3-2019 Bottom of vagina closed off, fat injected into the labia and urethra repositioned.

Offline anjaq

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Re: Why is Dr Spiegel so popular for FFS?
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2017, 06:06:46 am »
I actually sent in photos to PAI and they recommended brow shaving, hairline lowering and chin shave - not anything else. It is so far the one with the least procedures recommended except Facialteam which called everything optional and basically only recommended forehead and hairline as a "should have".
However I tried to get more information from PAI about the procedures - especially if it is type 1 2 or 3 forehead and what type of hairline change and chin shave they do - but the answer was cryptic. I guess it was beyond their english language capabilities. I do assume though they only talk about shaving bone, no reconstructions or placing bones differently and I assume they just do a hairline incision for the brow burring and use it for hairline advance. They were surprisingly expensive though - they charge a lot extra for the hairline, which is usually included in the price for forehead surgery with other surgeons - and the pricetag they have for basically "just burring down bone" was not small.

I totally agree with you about the conventional Ffs not being sufficient.
Wll it may be sufficient, but it does not really capture it all. Maybe not all is needed, but unless the other parts are at least considered, there might be a discrepancy developing when changing one part too much. It is more an art though to see it.
The best I can describe it is if you make yourself a red dress but the pieces for the arms and pockets and the buttons are all slightly different shades of red. Overall it looks like a red dress, maybe the difference in color is not recognized by many or it is perceived as a deliberate feature, but for some it will look odd.

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They would need extra help and this doesn't always mean overdone fake look but maybe something that is naturally undeniably feminine. And I mean just regular feminine, neither androgynous or hyper feminine. But we all know that is a very tricky/tough goal. And this is where the surgeons skills, aesthetics, comfort level become extremely important. A surgeon that can deliver a undeniably female face overall not one that is questionable or androgynous or fake looking. Now I do understand that some transwoman would still have to choose between looking artificially feminine or naturally androgynous. Famous transgender celeb Nina Arsenault talks about this in her autobiography that when all her attempts to look like a regular woman that blends in failed and  she wasn't still passing she decided to go big than to go home. And hence her current exaggerated look.
Yes, that is what I meant with the proper balance. Unquestionable female would be great, though I guess there is no such thing for a single feature, but the combination makes it so. But not overcompensating with hyperfemininity.
Personally, I think i would rather choose to be slightly androgynous but natural rather than exxagerated or artificially feminine.

Well basically this is where I am now - more or less androgynous-female. And when I consider FFS, a natural look is thus very important to me as I would rather stay as I am now, with a "strongly featured female face" than looking "done" or obviously altered.

So I wonder which surgeons are best for that. Apparently Spiegel can do natural looks when told to not be too radical - Facialteam seem to do this as well, they do not seem to like doing results that look altered, which however results in my opinion in some people not getting as much change as needed. The other surgeons in USA seem to rather tend to do more radical changes, being used to people coming in with very masculine faces that need a lot of work. PAI seems very conservative and subtle in their approach, judging from their assessment of my photos.

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I absolutely agree with you about the mindset of trying to camouflage masculine body/face with feminine clothes/makeup/hair. While there are some rare exceptions, generally it does more harm than good. But if those things really worked, our transitions would be so simple. Sigh.
Yeah - I think in the past it was more so - in the 1980ies or 1990ies people did not know so much about trans, so a person dressing in female clothes and all that probably just was  a woman, even if her face or voice was a bit masculine. Nowadays, people get suspicious at small hints like a lower voice on a woman that otherwise looks feminine - or a scar at the neck where the adams apple could have been...


Offline Ypsf09

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Re: Why is Dr Spiegel so popular for FFS?
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2017, 04:42:31 pm »
Funny based on how Ava Glasscott looks, I would have thought she went to Dr Z( just because some people here think his work is rather exaggerated/fake though in my personal opinion from what I have seen I don't agree and think he is a great surgeon)

I was surprised to find her real FFS surgeon, one more reason for me to think why is Dr Speigel so popular.

http://www.wcvb.com/article/about-face-facial-feminization/9105583

Offline fleurgirl

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Re: Why is Dr Spiegel so popular for FFS?
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2019, 07:46:26 pm »
Her face is obviously very swollen in the video. Personally, I agree and wouldn't go to Spiegel for FFS, but Stef Sanjati's face now looks incredibly cis-gender female.


Hello girls,

Please help me understand why so many girls go to him for FFS. I always thought his results were extremely subtle for my taste and in general for most male face structure to transform completely into a female one. He is also very expensive. My surgery quote was $60k for forehead, jaw, chin, nose, cheek implants and lip augmentation.


I just saw Stef Sanjati's whole FFS(from preop consult to post op week 3) on YouTube done by Dr Spiegel. She got Forehead, chin, jaw and lip done. What I found disturbing was that her forehead changed from being a masculine one to a androgynous one. Post op forehead stills seemed prominent, sloping and eyes still deepset. I am not sure if this is because she didn't get her nose done and that impacted the forehead feminization. And if that's the case, her surgeon should have warned about that in preop consultation so she might have considered rhinoplasty as well.


See her video below( fast forward to 17:25 if you don't want to watch the whole video)



I am happy that she is very happy with her forehead but I still see a heavy look in the eye due to the forehead.

As far as natural results go, I have seen some other surgeons that do aggressive work and still produce natural results.

Am I missing something because obviously he is extremely popular for FFS.

Offline malinda

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Re: Why is Dr Spiegel so popular for FFS?
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2019, 06:07:10 pm »
If you look at the ffs gallery on the Realself website spiegel has some really good before and afters wouldn't call them subtle and better than the ones on his webite. Also depends on each person's requests not everyone needs aggressive. I have personally met women who passed easy with subtle surgery and don't look like they have had 'work done' which imo is so much worse. I think alot of it is paranoia and warped mirror syndrome sometimes.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 08:58:23 am by malinda »

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