Author Topic: Why does a small number of people who ''go back'' become hateful?  (Read 2287 times)

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Online SailorMars1994

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Re: Why does a small number of people who ''go back'' become hateful?
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2018, 11:28:27 am »
Wow septagon. I am so sorry about your past truamas . No body, let alone a kid should ever face the type of things you did. I all really admire you being an adult about the situation and taking responsibilities of your actions in your adulthood years making decisions as an adult. No judgements here that shows strong character and is very admirable!

Yeah I made this post over a year ago due to many questions I had. I have met only like 3 other people who detransitioned probably within this last post time frame but all of which are still open minded and not harsh towards the community. In the case of Heyer it's easy to see why he gets a lot of attention. He makes bogus claims and preach exactly what the religious right finds acceptable. Result we hear his stories (which causes great Mayhem and division as it pits in educated cos people thinking we're all mentally ill as Heyer would say and makes probably many trans people uneasy around people who detransition as the stigma Heyer makes affects all) vs a story like yours which shows you're just trying to be and figure out who you are and try and live in harmony.

Again thank you for taking you're time, you're a very strong person!!
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Offline RobynD

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Re: Why does a small number of people who ''go back'' become hateful?
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2018, 12:18:53 pm »
People will always support seemingly conflicting and unsupportable positions using people that show up for their cause. Those pursuing the culture war and wanting to be transphobic will use people this for those ends. The science doesn't support it, the data doesn't support it, which leaves quasi-religious arguments that rarely make sense to debate.

It's a tiny minority of detransition folks that take the position that nobody should be supported in transition. Their journey is valid and should be supported, but it is their journey. Groups like the American Pediatric College were created to make a transphobic smoke screen. Fortunately, momentum is generally with us on this.



Offline SeptagonScars

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Re: Why does a small number of people who ''go back'' become hateful?
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2018, 06:01:12 pm »
Wow septagon. I am so sorry about your past truamas . No body, let alone a kid should ever face the type of things you did. I all really admire you being an adult about the situation and taking responsibilities of your actions in your adulthood years making decisions as an adult. No judgements here that shows strong character and is very admirable!

Yeah I made this post over a year ago due to many questions I had. I have met only like 3 other people who detransitioned probably within this last post time frame but all of which are still open minded and not harsh towards the community. In the case of Heyer it's easy to see why he gets a lot of attention. He makes bogus claims and preach exactly what the religious right finds acceptable. Result we hear his stories (which causes great Mayhem and division as it pits in educated cos people thinking we're all mentally ill as Heyer would say and makes probably many trans people uneasy around people who detransition as the stigma Heyer makes affects all) vs a story like yours which shows you're just trying to be and figure out who you are and try and live in harmony.

Again thank you for taking you're time, you're a very strong person!!

I've definitely been through a lot, and sometimes I even wonder how the heck I managed to get all the way into adulthood with that kind of baggage. I really do think I'm on a road to healing and self-acceptance now though.

I really just can't help myself but answer the curious questions others have, when I just so happen to sit on an answer. Even though it's of course subjective in this case, I still like to give my contribution to an interesting topic, and also I never feel offended by anything. I think that too comes with the package of having been through a lot. I got rough skin.

Thank you for your support as well! I kept hearing that supposedly the trans community is super angsty against any and all detransitioning people, but that's not been my experience so far at all. Everyone has been so sweet and caring. So that must be a myth, as far as I'm concerned ;)

I don't think detransitioned people are all that common, as we're kind of a minority of a minority, in a sense. Or well, there aren't even any clearly reliable statistics on how many percent do detransition, but I keep hearing it's around 2% of all who transition. So it doesn't surprise me you haven't met many who have gone that "there and back again" route. I haven't either. Just a few people. Although more are finding me now that I talk about my own experience, which I think is very nice, that I get to connect a bit with others who are going through the same thing. Makes me feel less lonely about it.

Yeah, Heyer really does seem like he has a lot of unfunded opinions... It's hard for me to think that anyone who's transitioned and lived as the other sex and known that pain and struggle, even though they detransition, to just turn their backs on the community like that. Well he's probably a very bitter man. And I think you make a good point about him basically giving bad reputation to people who detransition, also because there are so few of us and we don't really have a coherent community so not easy to fight together against opinions like Heyer's. Like we don't have a platform like the trans community does. Someone oughta do something about that, I think... I can probably be opinionated as well at times, but I tend to remember that usually, people know themselves better than I know them.

You're welcome, and thank you for your kind words!
Mar. 2009 - came out as ftm
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Offline Roll

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Re: Why does a small number of people who ''go back'' become hateful?
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2018, 06:33:43 pm »
This does touch upon a very real issue... that... well, to be frank I've noticed happen here a bit. People show up and ask "Am I trans?", "What does this mean?", etc... And many of the responses are "You sound trans to me." There are many things that can manifest as those symptoms, and I do believe it is irresponsible for strangers to push a narrative based on their own experiences. I recall one poster that scared the hell out of me, because I saw in her every last telltale sign of severe OCD and latching onto the idea she might be trans more than actually manifesting either dysphoria driven "symptoms" or non-dysphoria driven "symptoms". Unfortunately, a few people, in good faith but I believe irresponsibly, replied with very definitive "You're trans" responses. I was concerned enough I contacted mods to keep an eye on the situation. While comparing experiences can be a very valid thing, a very important thing(Ie: "I did this, this, and this as a child." "I don't know if you're trans, only you and your therapist can work that out, but I did those same things."), the blanket "cis people don't question their gender" statement is... simplistic. I believe that "healthy" (used very relative) cis people do not question their gender. Unfortunately, there are far too many people who are not "healthy" in that respect, who are cis and do. Likewise for those who may seek a full binary transition but prefer to be in the middle, agender, fluid, or non-binary.

Also, I believe unequivocally supporting detransitioners and understanding WHY they are destransitioning is integral for our future, for progressing our understanding of what it means to be trans or the complications that can lead to a mistaken or transitory trans identity.

I also believe that detransitioners are VERY MUCH still part of the community. The trans vs cis label does not matter. I believe this is a community not built on those labels, but built on shared experiences. Experience that in the overwhelming majority, shapes compassion and kindness. In other words, once you're family, you're family, and I see no reason that detransitioners shouldn't be given every bit the same love and acceptance as everyone else.
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Offline Virginia

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Re: Why does a small number of people who ''go back'' become hateful?
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2018, 07:14:59 pm »
I don't think detransitioned people are all that common, as we're kind of a minority of a minority, in a sense. Or well, there aren't even any clearly reliable statistics on how many percent do detransition, but I keep hearing it's around 2% of all who transition.

Another point of reference:
Our couple's psychologist has worked with transgender people since the late 1970's/early 80's. She shared with my wife and me that she has known many whose transitioned failed. And that her research showed a solid one third of transgender people detransition. Our doctor explained gender variance is fairly common. But for most people, peace comes from finding a way to do that in their birth gender.

Living as a person's "Authentic Self" is a wonderful goal. Sadly there are often obstacles that make this impossible. When I started therapy back in 2009 my GT explained there are three different human needs drive Gender Dysphoria; social acceptance, acceptance of how we look and acceptance of who we are. Therapy is vital for a person to explorer these needs so they cab determine whether transition will fill them or make them worse.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 07:23:20 am by Virginia »
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Offline PurplePelican

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Re: Why does a small number of people who ''go back'' become hateful?
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2018, 08:34:49 pm »
This does touch upon a very real issue... that... well, to be frank I've noticed happen here a bit. People show up and ask "Am I trans?", "What does this mean?", etc... And many of the responses are "You sound trans to me." There are many things that can manifest as those symptoms, and I do believe it is irresponsible for strangers to push a narrative based on their own experiences. I recall one poster that scared the hell out of me, because I saw in her every last telltale sign of severe OCD and latching onto the idea she might be trans more than actually manifesting either dysphoria driven "symptoms" or non-dysphoria driven "symptoms". Unfortunately, a few people, in good faith but I believe irresponsibly, replied with very definitive "You're trans" responses. I was concerned enough I contacted mods to keep an eye on the situation. While comparing experiences can be a very valid thing, a very important thing(Ie: "I did this, this, and this as a child." "I don't know if you're trans, only you and your therapist can work that out, but I did those same things."), the blanket "cis people don't question their gender" statement is... simplistic. I believe that "healthy" (used very relative) cis people do not question their gender. Unfortunately, there are far too many people who are not "healthy" in that respect, who are cis and do. Likewise for those who may seek a full binary transition but prefer to be in the middle, agender, fluid, or non-binary.

I used to be very pro-therapy in order to weed out the people with comorbid issues, but got sick of being told I was promoting gatekeepers - often by people who were clearly in need. I also had a habit of making the comment "No idea, I can't answer that, only you can." but that also received negative responses. So now I don't bother commenting on those threads at all and have stopped reading then, lest the comments cause me to permanently cringe. I think they do more harm than good. And don't get me started on the "Do I pass?" threads - they are a whole other story.

This is not medical advice. Always consult your doctor.

Offline Virginia

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Re: Why does a small number of people who ''go back'' become hateful?
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2018, 07:27:35 am »
This does touch upon a very real issue... that... well, to be frank I've noticed happen here a bit. People show up and ask "Am I trans?", "What does this mean?", etc... And many of the responses are "You sound trans to me." There are many things that can manifest as those symptoms, and I do believe it is irresponsible for strangers to push a narrative based on their own experiences. I recall one poster that scared the hell out of me, because I saw in her every last telltale sign of severe OCD and latching onto the idea she might be trans more than actually manifesting either dysphoria driven "symptoms" or non-dysphoria driven "symptoms". Unfortunately, a few people, in good faith but I believe irresponsibly, replied with very definitive "You're trans" responses. I was concerned enough I contacted mods to keep an eye on the situation. While comparing experiences can be a very valid thing, a very important thing(Ie: "I did this, this, and this as a child." "I don't know if you're trans, only you and your therapist can work that out, but I did those same things."), the blanket "cis people don't question their gender" statement is... simplistic. I believe that "healthy" (used very relative) cis people do not question their gender. Unfortunately, there are far too many people who are not "healthy" in that respect, who are cis and do. Likewise for those who may seek a full binary transition but prefer to be in the middle, agender, fluid, or non-binary.

Also, I believe unequivocally supporting detransitioners and understanding WHY they are destransitioning is integral for our future, for progressing our understanding of what it means to be trans or the complications that can lead to a mistaken or transitory trans identity.

I also believe that detransitioners are VERY MUCH still part of the community. The trans vs cis label does not matter. I believe this is a community not built on those labels, but built on shared experiences. Experience that in the overwhelming majority, shapes compassion and kindness. In other words, once you're family, you're family, and I see no reason that detransitioners shouldn't be given every bit the same love and acceptance as everyone else.

Extremely well said.
~VA (pronounced Vee- Aye, the abbreviation for the State of Virginia where I live)

Offline Virginia

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Re: Why does a small number of people who ''go back'' become hateful?
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2018, 07:47:02 am »
I used to be very pro-therapy in order to weed out the people with comorbid issues, but got sick of being told I was promoting gatekeepers - often by people who were clearly in need.

I remember realizing that many of the things I do and say that upset my wife are the very same things my parents did to me that traumatized me as a child. In tears I said to my psychologist  that I was "exactly like my Mother." She told me there was a HUGE different. That "there are two kinds of people in the world. Those who decide to therapy...and those who don't." When the pupil is ready the teacher will appear. There is no speeding the process.
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Offline SeptagonScars

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Re: Why does a small number of people who ''go back'' become hateful?
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2018, 12:16:06 pm »
Another point of reference:
Our couple's psychologist has worked with transgender people since the late 1970's/early 80's. She shared with my wife and me that she has known many whose transitioned failed. And that her research showed a solid one third of transgender people detransition. Our doctor explained gender variance is fairly common. But for most people, peace comes from finding a way to do that in their birth gender.

Living as a person's "Authentic Self" is a wonderful goal. Sadly there are often obstacles that make this impossible. When I started therapy back in 2009 my GT explained there are three different human needs drive Gender Dysphoria; social acceptance, acceptance of how we look and acceptance of who we are. Therapy is vital for a person to explorer these needs so they cab determine whether transition will fill them or make them worse.

Excuse me to be sceptical of that a third would detransition, at least on a larger, world wide scale. Many detransitioners do not come forward about it but simply stop showing up for gender therapy sessions, stop taking hrt, etc. So not easy to keep track of all detransitioners to even conduct studies. Very few actual, reliable studies have been done to see how many detransition. It's possible however that your couple's psychologist has one of those few studies that have been conducted, however reliable that one may or may not be.

The 2% estimation was found from a study that was done in the Netherlands (or if it was nother neighbouring country) along with a study that estimated around 0,03% of the population transition in the first place. It's an old study though but as far as I've been able to find, is the only that can be considered at least somewhat reliable as a guesstimation. Any source saying how many detransition should be taken with a huge grain of salt, I think.

There have been more studies done check how satisfied people in general are with having transitioned though, and among adult participants in those studies, it has been found that the majority of transitioned people are more satisfied then than they were prior to transitioning. However, someone can be dissatisfied with their transition without detransitioning or having been misdiagnosed. Things can go wrong for many different reasons. It's a lot of factors playing into it. Like really a lot of factors. Therapy is definitely a good thing to get, I'll always preach that one.

I'd actually say it's more important to strive to finding what is your authentic self than living it, cause actually figuring out what that is, I think is a life-long journey, and the journey towards it more important than the goal of getting there. If that makes sense.
Mar. 2009 - came out as ftm
Nov. 2009 - legal name change
Mar. 2010 - officially diagnosed with GID
Aug. 2010 - started T, then stopped 1 year after
Aug. 2013 - started T again, kept taking it since
Mar. 2014 - top surgery
Dec. 2014 - legal gender marker changed
*
Jul. 2018 - came out as cis woman and began detransition, applied for name change
Sep. 2018 - stopped taking T - name change approved
Oct. 2018 - got new ID-card

Gender plans: breast reconstruction surgery, change legal gender marker back to female, stay off T.

Offline Virginia

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Re: Why does a small number of people who ''go back'' become hateful?
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2018, 01:05:36 pm »
I'd actually say it's more important to strive to finding what is your authentic self than living it, cause actually figuring out what that is, I think is a life-long journey, and the journey towards it more important than the goal of getting there. If that makes sense.

Yes, this makes sense. There is an old saying that once a person discovers the root of suffering their pain is immensely decreased. Often suffering is often more the result of our fear of the unknown than the object itself.
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Offline Roll

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Re: Why does a small number of people who ''go back'' become hateful?
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2018, 01:35:41 am »
I used to be very pro-therapy in order to weed out the people with comorbid issues, but got sick of being told I was promoting gatekeepers - often by people who were clearly in need. I also had a habit of making the comment "No idea, I can't answer that, only you can." but that also received negative responses. So now I don't bother commenting on those threads at all and have stopped reading then, lest the comments cause me to permanently cringe. I think they do more harm than good. And don't get me started on the "Do I pass?" threads - they are a whole other story.

It is always an emotional, contentious issue for sure. I definitely believe that professionals should work with people and trust them (self identification issue), but also offer caution to give it a little bit of time rather than "Well, my first appointment is half over, can I have my prescription now?" (ensuring that it is *INFORMED* consent) simply as a matter of due diligence. Ultimately though, it does rely on an honest doctor-patient relationship, and there will always be misdiagnosis(sadly, all medicine is not exactly as precise as we'd like) so it will never be 100% . I believe that strangers acting in a decisive capacity over the internet is the part I take issue, and that the "only you can say" response is the best one. While I will not acknowledge the twisted, hateful arguments made by certain anti-trans ideologies, the more broad concept of peer pressure is a bad thing in any situation and I think may even actually infringe on self identification as it is a psychological effect that shapes a choice. (This plays into one of my greatest conflicts with the unmentioned anti-trans groups, as I believe they do a grave disservice and twist these issues to fit their narratives, creating a stigma surrounding something that should have none.)

TLDR: I wish people would leave the definitive calls out of replies until the individual themselves declares what they are. Better to let the informed consent model do its thing without our amateur diagnosis. (Which goes both ways, and no one should say "I dont think you are trans" either.)
~ Ellie
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(I made the s lowercase so it didn't look as much like PMS... ;D)

An Open Letter to anyone suffering from anxiety, particularly those afraid to make your first post or continue posting!

8/30/17 - First Therapy! The road begins in earnest.
10/20/17 - First coming out (to my father)!
12/16/17 - BEGAN HRT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5/21/18 - FIRST DAY OUT AS ME!!!!!!!!!
6/08/18 - 2,250 Hair Grafts
6/23/18 - FIRST PRIDE!
8/06/18 - 100%, completely out!
9/08/18 - I'M IN LOVE!!!!


Offline Maid Marion

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Re: Why does a small number of people who ''go back'' become hateful?
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2018, 07:02:38 am »
Some people have issues with social acceptance and see transitioning as a way to become accepted in society. And they become angry when they discover that it is even harder to become accepted when you are TG and there is no way to get back to where they used to be. 

The problem in this case is that all focus is on gender issues and not enough on the big picture of the individual. 

In the state that I live in, mental health and disability services for children go away when they turn 18.  Which can lead to incredibly cruel social isolation, as they no longer go to school or have the social skills to find work.  Everyone is looking for "people persons" for all jobs.  Transitioning may seem like a reasonable option for a social outcast with poor social skills and no job prospects.

Offline SeptagonScars

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Re: Why does a small number of people who ''go back'' become hateful?
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2018, 01:33:02 pm »
Also, I believe unequivocally supporting detransitioners and understanding WHY they are destransitioning is integral for our future, for progressing our understanding of what it means to be trans or the complications that can lead to a mistaken or transitory trans identity.

I also believe that detransitioners are VERY MUCH still part of the community. The trans vs cis label does not matter. I believe this is a community not built on those labels, but built on shared experiences. Experience that in the overwhelming majority, shapes compassion and kindness. In other words, once you're family, you're family, and I see no reason that detransitioners shouldn't be given every bit the same love and acceptance as everyone else.

This is very kind of you to say, and I agree. I also think that understanding why some detransition can be very beneficial to not just detransitioners but also to trans people in general. But it also saddens me that quite often detransitioners are used against the trans community instead. I wish it wasn't so.

I kinda feel like I have one foot in the trans community, and the other in the cis world, but that I don't quite fit into either now. I consider myself to be cis, but most other cis people don't know much at all about detransition or how that journey affects me. And although I share that journey with many trans people and experience a form of dysphoria (towards my transitioned traits), my gender aligning with my birth sex makes me feel a bit like an intruder in the trans community. I feel like I'm in a sense (unintentionally) blurring the line between trans and cis. So I think it's complicated, but I stay here showing respect and compassion, and only wish for the same in return.
Mar. 2009 - came out as ftm
Nov. 2009 - legal name change
Mar. 2010 - officially diagnosed with GID
Aug. 2010 - started T, then stopped 1 year after
Aug. 2013 - started T again, kept taking it since
Mar. 2014 - top surgery
Dec. 2014 - legal gender marker changed
*
Jul. 2018 - came out as cis woman and began detransition, applied for name change
Sep. 2018 - stopped taking T - name change approved
Oct. 2018 - got new ID-card

Gender plans: breast reconstruction surgery, change legal gender marker back to female, stay off T.

Offline Roll

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Re: Why does a small number of people who ''go back'' become hateful?
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2018, 10:18:29 pm »
I honestly think that people like yourself are probably one of the most important pieces of the puzzle in all of this that has not been given the proper due. Those who become disillusioned with everything and turn hostile are so caught up in their own pain, understandably, that they are not in a place to offer impartial insights. Those who simply step away, no longer feeling like they belong may have very value insights that are lost for it. I think those insights are sorely needed.
~ Ellie
■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■
I ALWAYS WELCOME PMs!
(I made the s lowercase so it didn't look as much like PMS... ;D)

An Open Letter to anyone suffering from anxiety, particularly those afraid to make your first post or continue posting!

8/30/17 - First Therapy! The road begins in earnest.
10/20/17 - First coming out (to my father)!
12/16/17 - BEGAN HRT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5/21/18 - FIRST DAY OUT AS ME!!!!!!!!!
6/08/18 - 2,250 Hair Grafts
6/23/18 - FIRST PRIDE!
8/06/18 - 100%, completely out!
9/08/18 - I'M IN LOVE!!!!


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