Author Topic: Transgender Conscious and Unconscious  (Read 1324 times)

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Offline Wendyway2

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Transgender Conscious and Unconscious
« on: July 14, 2017, 11:13:25 am »
Hello,
Do you believe in a gender variant collective conscious and unconscious? While I cannot quote Jung. The self inclusion of the possibility of my being a woman, and all the male to female, and female to male variations have a perspective that is yearning to be included in the possible. That we ought not have to avoid life, and that by dismantling stereotypes we stand a better chance of not being laughed at or discriminated against. As a Transgender woman I am calling for an evolutionary view of society, and culture to open up our perspectives to the possibility that gender non conformity is a conformity, and a confirmation of the person who as an individual is living how they are intended to. It maybe that a Transgender re-creates themselves entirely based on personal incentives and motivations, and that somehow contradicts what we understand about assigned births and religion, but that is not really any different than the oedipal struggles we have with dependency issues, or the fact that we feel more alive assigning ourselves to another gender. We are not depraved animals. It is only by embracing the concept that gender specificity exists only to a certain degree, and that liberation in all of it's implication is, and is not only a matter of choice, but is inclusive of living as  a man or as a woman. We are a part of the species, with skepticism about genetical chromosome pairing. That to be a man, or to be  a woman is a chemistry that opens oneself up to self perceptions of all kinds, depending on who the person is,  how they perceive themselves, and in their choosing, or deciding how they can live with themselves in the company of others.

Offline Gertrude

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Re: Transgender Conscious and Unconscious
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2017, 08:46:24 am »
Social changes take time, at least a generation. Look back 50 years and you can see the evolution. I don’t expect the change you, I and others seek for another 20-25 years as the old guard SoCons and mouth breathers die off completely or nearly so. When surveyed, the children and grand children of these people have relatively more liberal view. The underlying problem is one of tribes and people that need certainty in their lives and because they are drawn to fundamental belief systems, they don’t challenge their own beliefs and assumptions. It’s a consequence of their indoctrination, personality, and the reinforcement through their tribe or group. Cognitive dissonance is too painful for them. What we propose represents a contradiction. Someone once said there are no contradictions, only incorrect premises and in their case, rubbing their noses in it does little good. Time and progress will fix it though. As much as Jenner is excoriated for being politically incorrect by “the community”, she’s done more in pushing this along than anyone recently. I think as more of us come out and live authentically, the change will come quicker as almost everyone will know someone tran and you really can’t hate someone when you know their story. We might not be the founding pioneers, but we’re the manifest destiny that is moving things along. The next 10 years will be exciting in some ways regardless of who is in the White House and what their agenda is, which is the last gasp of ideas we find anathema. Better times are coming.


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Offline Wendyway2

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Re: Transgender Conscious and Unconscious
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2017, 11:38:03 am »
Hello,

Thanks for the comment I agree people are or are becoming more accepting, and tolerant of gender variance. How do you feel about gender variance as an archetype, and as a spiritual quest. It seems all Transgender men and women look for that distinction of ascribing to both sexes. Over the course of time it may not be unusual for a person born male to clearly identify as a woman, and for that dichotomy of being born inter gendered is viewed as common and normal. 

Offline Gertrude

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Re: Transgender Conscious and Unconscious
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2017, 02:21:29 pm »
Hello,

Thanks for the comment I agree people are or are becoming more accepting, and tolerant of gender variance. How do you feel about gender variance as an archetype, and as a spiritual quest. It seems all Transgender men and women look for that distinction of ascribing to both sexes. Over the course of time it may not be unusual for a person born male to clearly identify as a woman, and for that dichotomy of being born inter gendered is viewed as common and normal.

I’m an existentialist, so my views are pragmatic. There are socially reinforced norms and then there is the reality of what and who people really are. Right now they don’t line up well at all.  Not fitting into the paradigm has its consequences and choices have to be made. This may lead to a journey or really an alternate one. Some day those choices needn’t be made and the journey will have a different focus.


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Offline Paul Muad-Dib

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Re: Transgender Conscious and Unconscious
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2017, 09:50:12 pm »
Personally I don't endorse dismantling stereotypes by force - i.e. trying to get the law to force people to accept gender non conformity, by way of using neutral pronouns etc. I do not think that will help us in the long run - the left side of the political spectrum has been trying very hard of late to do this - increasingly by force - and it isn't having the desired effect upon society at large... and I do not think this is because there's a ton of bigots out there. I think it's because when you force your ideas upon others, or when you use force in general, you get the opposite of what you intended. People hate you for it, and they will reject your ideas. Force just begets more force. Trying to shame people for not accepting is also going to produce similar results. Educating people in a respectful way (allowing for their opinions), and living your life as a good example is the best way to show that we are also human beings.

I also think that it's important not to get carried away with going after people who make jokes or generally dislike us. I would be satisfied at the law being changed to make it illegal to kick trans people out of jobs simply for being trans, etc. or to attack them for being trans, but I would not pursue people making comments or jokes in their own lives. A world in which nobody can make a joke would not be one I want to live in, even if the joke happens to be at the expense of a trans person. It's more important and beneficial to reach a state in which a joke means nothing to you, than to remain in a state in which a joke will ruin your day.

At this point in life I've realized that it's ok for other people to disapprove, provided I still have my basic rights. In fact it's a healthy society that does not become an echo chamber and suppress different view points and voices just because a minority like mine happens not to like them very much. I oppose excessive political correctness because in the end what it seems wont to create is a world without discourse. As an academic I'm bound by my principles to oppose censorship of ideas and the stifling of speech, no matter how much I'm told it is to "protect me". Not least because censorship is most often the beginning of a dark road our history knows all about. If I have to choose between having my feelings hurt and the risks posed by censorship at present - hurt my feelings. They are infinitely less important than pushing society further and further toward a polarized and violent confrontation by suppression.

As a former biologist, I do have beef with the idea chromosomes have little to say about biological sex, and I don't believe it is the place of trans people to try and rewrite science until we know a great deal more than we do. I would also say trans people are rarer than cis people, and it doesn't sit well with me to see a minority of people in the world attempting to tell the rest of it what is and is not normal, or exactly what gender is, myself included. Just because we are trans does not mean we know more about what gender is than someone who isn't. I would be very careful of trying to do this as it may well have the opposite effect you intend, especially if you automatically assume your view is always right and that they owe you something. All they really owe you is basic human decency and tolerance. They don't owe us automatic acceptance or automatic love or automatic adoption of all of our ideas. And we don't exactly have a right to dismantle all of what is theirs just because we don't exactly fit right into it. Postmodern views in general seem to be causing issues these days, and I feel it is never wise to cast away your anchor completely.

If allowed the right amount of time, a generation or so I would say, people will eventually come around to the idea - as they have with homosexuality in many places - that trans is a naturally-occurring phenomenon and not the work of the devil or of a degenerate society. They are still reeling from the mass "discovery" of trans issues in the media and our community is at this point pressing and pressing for this right or that law, and it's all very sudden for them. They will need time to digest, and for fresher minds to be raised in an environment where they can see with their own eyes that trans people aren't two-headed monsters but just people. Sometimes, unfortunately, you just have to wait for the intolerance to literally die off in older generations.

In my view our path to being more accepted doesn't lie in trying to utterly "normalize" us and dismantle everything cis - it lies in more research into the condition of trans, and understanding and explaining it through a medical lens. I've spoken now with dozens of people who were initially skeptical that trans was anything but a fashion statement, or some exotic form of schizophrenia, and by explaining in biological and medical terms my experiences, I find plenty of acceptance and acknowledgement that yes, I am not quite like them, and never quite will be... but that's okay - and I'm also no threat. I'm just trying to fit in and live my life like they are, and desire minimal disruption to their lives or to the logical machinery of the world. Those trans individuals I see who go in lecturing and demanding the everyday world change to suit them (or else!) seem to receive the most resistance, the most fear and the most dislike. And small wonder - they are presenting a credible threat to the "normal world" of these people when they say they want them to call them by strange new words, or to have schools teach (their) young children about <transgender>, or else bring the weight of the law courts crashing down on them.

Some time in the future, provided we do not war or starve ourselves into extinction, being trans will probably be a non-issue. When the time is right for that, nothing will prevent it. But if the time and conditions are not yet right, trying to get what we want by threatening or forcing others might well set us back a very long time.

Offline Gertrude

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Re: Transgender Conscious and Unconscious
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2017, 10:13:33 pm »
Personally I don't endorse dismantling stereotypes by force - i.e. trying to get the law to force people to accept gender non conformity, by way of using neutral pronouns etc. I do not think that will help us in the long run - the left side of the political spectrum has been trying very hard of late to do this - increasingly by force - and it isn't having the desired effect upon society at large... and I do not think this is because there's a ton of bigots out there. I think it's because when you force your ideas upon others, or when you use force in general, you get the opposite of what you intended. People hate you for it, and they will reject your ideas. Force just begets more force. Trying to shame people for not accepting is also going to produce similar results. Educating people in a respectful way (allowing for their opinions), and living your life as a good example is the best way to show that we are also human beings.

I also think that it's important not to get carried away with going after people who make jokes or generally dislike us. I would be satisfied at the law being changed to make it illegal to kick trans people out of jobs simply for being trans, etc. or to attack them for being trans, but I would not pursue people making comments or jokes in their own lives. A world in which nobody can make a joke would not be one I want to live in, even if the joke happens to be at the expense of a trans person. It's more important and beneficial to reach a state in which a joke means nothing to you, than to remain in a state in which a joke will ruin your day.

At this point in life I've realized that it's ok for other people to disapprove, provided I still have my basic rights. In fact it's a healthy society that does not become an echo chamber and suppress different view points and voices just because a minority like mine happens not to like them very much. I oppose excessive political correctness because in the end what it seems wont to create is a world without discourse. As an academic I'm bound by my principles to oppose censorship of ideas and the stifling of speech, no matter how much I'm told it is to "protect me". Not least because censorship is most often the beginning of a dark road our history knows all about.

As a former biologist, I do have beef with the idea chromosomes have little to say about biological sex, and I don't believe it is the place of trans people to try and rewrite science until we know a great deal more than we do. I would also say trans people are rarer than cis people, and it doesn't sit well with me to see a minority of people in the world attempting to tell the rest of it what is and is not normal, or exactly what gender is, myself included. Just because we are trans does not mean we know more about what gender is than someone who isn't. I would be very careful of trying to do this as it may well have the opposite effect you intend, especially if you automatically assume your view is always right and that they owe you something. All they really owe you is basic human decency and tolerance. They don't owe us automatic acceptance or automatic love or automatic adoption of all of our ideas. And we don't exactly have a right to dismantle all of what is theirs just because we don't exactly fit right into it.

If allowed the right amount of time, a generation or so I would say, people will eventually come around to the idea - as they have with homosexuality in many places - that trans is a naturally-occurring phenomenon and not the work of the devil or of a degenerate society. They are still reeling from the mass "discovery" of trans issues in the media and our community is at this point pressing and pressing for this right or that law, and it's all very sudden for them. They will need time to digest, and for fresher minds to be raised in an environment where they can see with their own eyes that trans people aren't two-headed monsters but just people. Sometimes, unfortunately, you just have to wait for the intolerance to literally die off in older generations.

In my view our path to being more accepted doesn't lie in trying to utterly "normalize" us and dismantle everything cis - it lies in more research into the condition of trans, and understanding and explaining it through a medical lens. I've spoken now with dozens of people who were initially skeptical that trans was anything but a fashion statement, or some exotic form of schizophrenia, and by explaining in biological and medical terms my experiences, I find plenty of acceptance and acknowledgement that yes, I am not quite like them, and never quite will be... but that's okay - and I'm also no threat. I'm just trying to fit in and live my life like they are, and desire minimal disruption to their lives or to the logical machinery of the world. Those trans individuals I see who go in lecturing and demanding the everyday world change to suit them (or else!) seem to receive the most resistance, the most fear and the most dislike. And small wonder - they are presenting a credible threat to the "normal world" of these people when they say they want them to call them by strange new words, or to have schools teach (their) young children about <transgender>, or else bring the weight of the law courts crashing down on them.
On the other hand, there are social conservatives that have an agenda to push us back in the closet and we see trump doing their work. I am more classical liberal/libertarian about politics, but these people are even more dangerous. In a perfect world, people wouldn’t use government to promote and reinforce beliefs and everyone would have the basic respect that recognizes people can and have a right to be different and believe as they may, but we haven’t gotten beyond the tribal BS. It’s malignant musterbation. Education would help, but the underlying problem is that most people never question their indoctrination.


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Offline Paul Muad-Dib

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Re: Transgender Conscious and Unconscious
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2017, 04:36:06 am »
I agree, and things like sorting out the bathroom issue is an issue of essential rights for trans people. You don't get more essential than being able to fulfil a bodily function without being arrested. But I think balance needs to take place as well in what is and isn't pushed for. School agendas are not essential, enforcement of Xe and Xir etc. are not essential, and they make it look like we're out to transform society into what we want it to be, giving them the ammo they must have been praying for. I would stick with making sure our basic rights are won, not going for any sort of inordinate special treatment over and above most others, or pursuing the idea to offend a trans person is some sort of crime that should be punished. They will get even more dangerous and double down if they perceive we want more than to exist like everyone else but want to make them bend the knee.

As well as that, even I'm confused lately as to the definition of trans and genderfluidity as described by trans and gender fluid people because the various personal definitions keep being circulated but are changing too rapidly for people to make sense of them. If we are going to give them a basic rundown of what trans is, with a view to helping to educate, it can't be something that changes widely from person to person or from year to year or they will think we're all nuts. About 5 years ago the main idea going around was that trans people transitioned from one gender to another. Then we had people saying genders are in the treble figures and that trans includes people who don't transition. Now we have people trying to wipe gender out completely from official forms and job applications, or creating whole new titles leaving people dazed and confused as to what's going on and how on earth they are meant to define people. It's a bit too much too soon, and I don't believe the wider social ramifications of those definitions and changes have even been thought through properly at this point.

Offline SadieBlake

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Re: Transgender Conscious and Unconscious
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2017, 02:31:10 pm »
I'm not sure how you square this:
As well as that, even I'm confused lately as to the definition of trans and genderfluidity as described by trans and gender fluid people because the various personal definitions keep being circulated but are changing too rapidly for people to make sense of them. If we are going to give them a basic rundown of what trans is, with a view to helping to educate, it can't be something that changes widely from person to person or from year to year or they will think we're all nuts. About 5 years ago the main idea going around was that trans people transitioned from one gender to another. Then we had people saying genders are in the treble figures and that trans includes people who don't transition.


with this:
Quote
Personally I don't endorse dismantling stereotypes by force - i.e. trying to get the law to force people to accept gender non conformity, by way of using neutral pronouns etc. I do not think that will help us in the long run - the left side of the political spectrum has been trying very hard of late to do this - increasingly by force - and it isn't having the desired effect upon society at large... and I do not think this is because there's a ton of bigots out there. I think it's because when you force your ideas upon others, or when you use force in general, you get the opposite of what you intended. People hate you for it, and they will reject your ideas.

Yes we're seeing a huge backlash from the political right at this time but that didn't start or end with trans people.

I watched a film about Virginia v Loving, the case that struck down antimiscegenation laws and I was struck first at how long it took for that to happen and how it was another 50 years to secure marriage equality for gays and lesbians.

Without changes in laws, people do not change. I would argue that gay marriage is widely accepted today (even in red states) and that that wouldn't have happened without first the decision of the Massachusetts SJC legalizing gay marriage and then of course the scotus decision for the nation as a whole.
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Re: Transgender Conscious and Unconscious
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2017, 03:06:10 pm »
Gender roles are not fluid. We all wish to be one or the other.




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Offline Paul Muad-Dib

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Re: Transgender Conscious and Unconscious
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2017, 03:39:05 pm »
I'm not sure how you square this:

with this:

What do you mean?

Quote
Without changes in laws, people do not change. I would argue that gay marriage is widely accepted today (even in red states) and that that wouldn't have happened without first the decision of the Massachusetts SJC legalizing gay marriage and then of course the scotus decision for the nation as a whole.

Yes, of course. Some laws I favor pursuing. But not all of them, such as the criminalization of pronoun misuse or lack of use by a person. Such a law seems not only unnecessary but counter-productive, for free speech and the reputation of our community. Forcing people to speak the way you want them to I find abhorrent. They say it's so trans people will be respected but never in my life have I seen an example of a law like this actually getting someone to be truly respectful facing down the barrel of a proverbial gun. Not only that but the general culture of offense and victimhood being fostered out there which this is a part of seems only to have made people I know in the community more upset, fearful or overly preoccupied with the details of every public encounter.

As I say, basic rights are things we do still need and should be fought for. I want no more rights than everyone else has, but I do want the same rights. I don't want to be given favorable treatment or the right to punish people for merely insulting or offending me, etc. The fastest way to drive a bigger wedge between two groups is to give one of them special treatment. The new proposed pronoun laws are an example of this. It proposes giving transgender individuals a specific right and advantage that nobody else has - the right to have someone prosecuted for not being verbally correct on the matter of their gender.

It's already having backlash in real-time as the internet twitters and digests the proposal. Already I see plenty to the effect of "what, so now these people want to have me sent to jail if I don't call them whatever they say they are? this is wrong and I won't do it."

Frankly I think we can protect the respect of elderly <transgender> persons in care homes without use of a bill that is seen to specifically privilege us over everyone else; nor do I think such a bill will stop at care homes and elderly folks for long.



Offline Gertrude

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Transgender Conscious and Unconscious
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2017, 09:41:34 pm »
I'm not sure how you square this:

with this:
Yes we're seeing a huge backlash from the political right at this time but that didn't start or end with trans people.

I watched a film about Virginia v Loving, the case that struck down antimiscegenation laws and I was struck first at how long it took for that to happen and how it was another 50 years to secure marriage equality for gays and lesbians.

Without changes in laws, people do not change. I would argue that gay marriage is widely accepted today (even in red states) and that that wouldn't have happened without first the decision of the Massachusetts SJC legalizing gay marriage and then of course the scotus decision for the nation as a whole.
I would disagree about change vis a vis laws. Murder is illegal and some states execute people for it and it still happens. With regards to social indoctrination and institutions, I would agree, to that extent that laws will change that.


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