Author Topic: Trump lawyers back Colorado baker who turned away same-sex couple  (Read 1074 times)

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Offline AnneK

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Trump lawyers back Colorado baker who turned away same-sex couple
« on: September 07, 2017, 08:51:45 pm »
Acting Solicitor Gen. Jeffrey B. Wall filed a friend-of-the-court brief arguing that the cake maker’s rights to speech and the free exercise of religion should prevail over a Colorado civil-rights law that forbids discrimination based on sexual orientation.

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/09/07/trump-lawyers-back-colorado-baker-who-turned-away-same-sex-couple.html


The Star/by David G Savage
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 05:18:58 pm by stephaniec »
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Offline Janes Groove

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Re: Trump lawyers back Colorado baker who turned away same-sex couple
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2017, 09:57:24 pm »
It's pretty obvious the Trump administration is a disaster for the LGBT community. Don't believe me?
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Offline Vanny

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Re: Trump lawyers back Colorado baker who turned away same-sex couple
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2017, 02:52:14 am »
Please


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Offline ericca

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Re: Trump lawyers back Colorado baker who turned away same-sex couple
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2017, 10:05:13 pm »
It's frustrating to hear this kinds of stories. Discrimination against the LGBT is real. It needs urgent attention and the government has the role of forwarding acceptance. Laws clash but the president can still do something. He should be the primary source of accepting rhetoric.

Unfortunately, he is obviously a bigot. His character manifests on his policies. Transgender welfare in the military, for example is at stake. I doubt that there is hope for Trump, but I believe in the power of the community. May we continue to be strong in this trying times.

Offline sad

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Re: Trump lawyers back Colorado baker who turned away same-sex couple
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2017, 01:51:51 pm »
the states became a joke due to him
he ruined literally years worth of hard work in only a few months

Offline IzzyC

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Re: Trump lawyers back Colorado baker who turned away same-sex couple
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2017, 02:14:17 pm »
There's a double standard to this, both internally in the people that refuse service and also the activists themselves.

People who cite religious beliefs, like in the florist case, also simultaneously make the statement that providing flowers to a Muslim/Atheist marriage doesn't necessarily constitute an endorsement of Islam/Atheism. Consistent logic would dictate that making flowers and baking cakes for gays doesn't then necessarily constitute an endorsement of gay marriage.

That being said, LGBT activists have a vindictive tendency to specifically target these businesses when others or better ones exist. Like the two who tricked a Christian Pizza place into catering an anniversary party. First, who the heck wants cheap pizza at an anniversary party? Second, it smacked of antagonism.

They also don't target anyone else. I don't see LGBT people running into Islamic stores and demanding their services. Why the hypocrisy? Why only target Christians and not other religions and groups that are objectively WORSE on LGBT relations. If any group needs to be "forced" to comply with tolerance via legislation and fiat, it's Islam/Muslims.

The only person I've heard of doing that is Steven Crowder, and his reception at the businesses in question was far worse than anyone who strongarms some old fundie store.

We have this really weird and potentially dangerous notion in our society that we can force people to be "better." You can't. The line between good and evil runs through every human heart, and things like this create a precedent which will be used in all sorts of far more catastrophic ways in the future. Just don't shop there. Go somewhere else. If people just avoided stores ran by fundamentalists, they'd all eventually go out of business.

They only stay in business because LGBT activists do this crap, stir up a fuss, and then reactive groups change patronage to the businesses in question from their typical M.O. in an effort to show solidarity.

Offline Laurie

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Re: Trump lawyers back Colorado baker who turned away same-sex couple
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2017, 02:15:57 pm »
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Offline AnneK

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Re: Trump lawyers back Colorado baker who turned away same-sex couple
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2017, 02:29:47 pm »
Quote
If people just avoided stores ran by fundamentalists, they'd all eventually go out of business.

Given that I have absolutely no use for religion, why should I even have to consider whether a business is run by fundamentalists?  That's violating my rights to be free of religion!!!!
I'm a 63 year old male who has been thinking about SRS for many years.  I also was a  full cross dresser for a few years.  I wear a bra, pantyhose and nail polish daily because it just feels right.  I am exploring where I want to take things and recently talked to my doctor about HRT.

Offline IzzyC

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Re: Trump lawyers back Colorado baker who turned away same-sex couple
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2017, 02:35:25 pm »
Given that I have absolutely no use for religion, why should I even have to consider whether a business is run by fundamentalists?  That's violating my rights to be free of religion!!!!

I'm confused by your question and claim. Is it an attempt at humor?

If you believe yourself to have a right to be free from religious things, then why wouldn't you make a concerted effort to know the persuasions of people who run your local businesses?

Like it or not, Westboro types and ISIS sympathizers have every right to open up a business.

Offline AnneK

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Re: Trump lawyers back Colorado baker who turned away same-sex couple
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2017, 02:46:09 pm »
No, I was not trying to be humorous.  I just get so fed up with those who claim their rights enable them to trample the rights of others.  They are certainly entitled to their beliefs.  However they are not entitled to impose their beliefs on others.  This is a real big problem with fundamentalists.  Well, they are fundamentally wrong!
I'm a 63 year old male who has been thinking about SRS for many years.  I also was a  full cross dresser for a few years.  I wear a bra, pantyhose and nail polish daily because it just feels right.  I am exploring where I want to take things and recently talked to my doctor about HRT.

Offline IzzyC

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Re: Trump lawyers back Colorado baker who turned away same-sex couple
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2017, 02:51:35 pm »
No, I was not trying to be humorous.  I just get so fed up with those who claim their rights enable them to trample the rights of others.  They are certainly entitled to their beliefs.  However they are not entitled to impose their beliefs on others.  This is a real big problem with fundamentalists.  Well, they are fundamentally wrong!

Well that's why you need to avoid them and figure out how to do so.

I do, with such businesses. I make sure to be aware when Pride festivals are running around because I don't want to see that kinda stuff. It's not my place to tell them what to do. I could just as easily say they're stepping on my rights to not witness indecent exposure in public.

I specifically shop at Target because of their pro LGBT stances and avoid other stores.

Offline Deborah

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Re: Trump lawyers back Colorado baker who turned away same-sex couple
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2017, 03:05:17 pm »

We have this really weird and potentially dangerous notion in our society that we can force people to be "better." You can't.
This is simply false.  If it were true then slavery would have existed past 1865 and we would still have segregation in many states.

It is true you cannot forcibly change their hearts.  But so what!  You can grab them by the nose and kick them in the ass until they comply whether they want to or not.



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Offline Complete

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Re: Trump lawyers back Colorado baker who turned away same-sex couple
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2017, 03:18:44 pm »
Given that I have absolutely no use for religion, why should I even have to consider whether a business is run by fundamentalists?  That's violating my rights to be free of religion!!!!

I have to agree with lzzy on this one. There is a huge double standard at play here. You seem more concerned about your own needs and sensibilities than the fundamental right to the free exercise of religion as guaranteed by our US Constitution. Even the use of the term "fundie", an obvious pejorative, runs in the face of your offense at the use of the term "tranny". I am hoping the mods see my use of both these equally offensive terms as just my clumsy attempt to show how morally offensive and hurtful either pejorative can be to people of faith.
My point is that those suffering from what is commonly recognized as a form of mental illness are not in a position to demand instant acceptance by others of their own rather uncommon pov.


Offline IzzyC

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Re: Trump lawyers back Colorado baker who turned away same-sex couple
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2017, 03:22:12 pm »


It is true you cannot forcibly change their hearts.  But so what!  You can grab them by the nose and kick them in the ass until they comply whether they want to or not.


That's what I was talking about, changing hearts. Short of personal catastrophe or some sort of crisis moment, people don't change. My father's mother was a racist and hated my mother until the day she died. Laws and culture opening up interracial marriage over the generations didn't change her.

Also, that sounds a bit totalitarian. Not to mention that forced compliance at the point of a gun won't likely change what actually matters. "Hearts."

Changing culture by force within a short period of time often causes violence, as US history and the rest of the historical record shows. Sometimes this is warranted. I have doubts that trans acceptance is something that requires or needs fascist action to bring about the ultimate goal of cultural acceptance.

Offline Complete

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Re: Trump lawyers back Colorado baker who turned away same-sex couple
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2017, 03:22:49 pm »
This is simply false.  If it were true then slavery would have existed past 1865 and we would still have segregation in many states.

It is true you cannot forcibly change their hearts.  But so what!  You can grab them by the nose and kick them in the ass until they comply whether they want to or not.


I should not have to point out that advocacy of violence is not the answer. It took the bloodiest war in our history to settle the issue of slavery. There should have been an easier way. Hopefully the questions surrounding the rights of T-people can be resolved by cooler heads.

Offline Jenntrans

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Re: Trump lawyers back Colorado baker who turned away same-sex couple
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2017, 03:39:06 pm »
I have a little different take and will play the devil's advocate. A business is private property. I own  business, one in which the losses are more than the profits and the tax codes are in my favor. My personal income in the clear is right about average some years and below average other years. I pay more taxes from sales, to fuel, to licenses and road use. I pay fees to states to run oversize loads and road use taxes. I have to register my truck every year and that is about 1600 dollars per truck and I own seven or rather the banks own them still. They depreciate and I can write that off on taxes.

My business is private property and I can either choose to hire someone or not. I can choose to take a load or not but why would I. I have to make a living and when you alienate customers, then you are losing business. I have no scruples or morals when it comes to making my businesses a success or the success of the people that work for me.

So in this instance, it sux but the first amendment is clear about freedom of religion. If this owner's religion dictates to deny Same Sex couples and about same sex marriage then that his their loss of business. The word will get out and they will lose business. Yes sexual orientation is protected but same sex marriage is not right now. We have sympathizers too and a lot will not use the business for their own weddings.

So the best thing to do is not be mad, well may just a little offended but still respect whatever it is the business owner believes it and use another business that will bend over backwards to provide their services. I would rather pay those that want my business than wanting someone to force a private business to serve me and hate me. People suck so no matter what will end up in the cake batter. This is something to think about too because if they are crazy enough to turn business away then they are crazy enough to put extra ingredients in the batter. The Market will take care of itself and the word will always get out and we have a lot more sympathizers now that we ever have.

Offline Devlyn Marie

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Re: Trump lawyers back Colorado baker who turned away same-sex couple
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2017, 03:44:34 pm »
Devyls advocate, spell it right!  >:-)

A business is private property, but it's run using public roads, public snowplowing, public streetlights,  and it comes with an obligation to serve the public equally.

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Offline Deborah

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Re: Trump lawyers back Colorado baker who turned away same-sex couple
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2017, 03:56:37 pm »
I should not have to point out that advocacy of violence is not the answer. It took the bloodiest war in our history to settle the issue of slavery. There should have been an easier way. Hopefully the questions surrounding the rights of T-people can be resolved by cooler heads.
I was not advocating violence but rather simply pointing out that the USA has successfully used force to resolve cultural issues in the past.

Did we desegregate schools by changing hearts?  No.  We did it by deploying the 101st Airborne Division to Little Rock, Arkansas. 

Was that totalitarian and the wrong thing to do?  The Evangelicals were using religious arguments then too.  Should we simply have waited until their God got around to announcing a new theology for them? 

American history clearly demonstrates with that example and with several I could cite from the Mormons that their God changes his theology only under legal pressure or force from the government.  It’s funny how that works.


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Offline Complete

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Re: Trump lawyers back Colorado baker who turned away same-sex couple
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2017, 04:04:41 pm »
Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired

Offline Deborah

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Re: Trump lawyers back Colorado baker who turned away same-sex couple
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2017, 04:09:33 pm »
Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
I’m not naive enough to believe that they are going to love us and I don’t really care.  Who and what they love is a matter for their own conscience.  All I am concerned with here is equal protection under the law.


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Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

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