Author Topic: Orchiectomy is NOT needed to discontinue taking anti-androgens!!!  (Read 1621 times)

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Online Devlyn Marie

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Re: Orchiectomy is NOT needed to discontinue taking anti-androgens!!!
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2017, 04:50:54 pm »

The problem with oral micronized progesterone (I urge you to consult more studies and check pharmacokinetics, hour by hour) is that levels peak and dip quite quickly so that within 3-4 hours after the peak, levels have already dropped significantly and this can lead to mood swings. Taken rectally and vaginally, levels are more constant and drop much later. With IM, it needs to be injected daily as by 24 hours, levels have SIGNIFICANTLY dropped.

Rectally, rectal E, it's six of one and half a dozen of the other!  :laugh:
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Online josie76

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Re: Orchiectomy is NOT needed to discontinue taking anti-androgens!!!
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2017, 07:43:42 am »
Kay, I do understand the half life of progesterone in the blood is fairly short. What I'm saying is while you keep thinking in terms of progesterone, I am trying to put forward that you are missing the other effects.

Your experienced sedation effect is not progesterone. It is in fact the metabolized rush of allopregnanolone causing this effect. After the drowsiness and dizziness goes away, the level of allopregnanolone can remain at normal usable levels. Yes progesterone itself drops but the studies can indicate a 12 hour and 18 hour levels may still be in the useful blood range. This is something I intend to find out for myself when I get another blood test. If it does not stay in the range I would like it to be I will ask my doctor for a higher prescribed dosage. Many have a dose twice what I am taking currently. I will also consider taking the doses 12 hours apart.

It is not prudent to discredit this from the studies you have found alone. The targeted effect of those studies was not specific to trans women either. This make all studies merely  relevant only as guidelines for us and the doctors. They provide grounds for theories and following testing of theories only.

What I am saying is do not believe what so many trans women who claim to know the only way this should be done and think about the entire picture. Once you start reading into the full scope of receptor activation and modulation as well as the spider web of metabolites used in the body you find one fact is self evident. "Nothing is simple about this, nothing".
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Offline KayXo

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Re: Orchiectomy is NOT needed to discontinue taking anti-androgens!!!
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2017, 08:06:12 am »
Your experienced sedation effect is not progesterone. It is in fact the metabolized rush of allopregnanolone causing this effect.

I know, well aware of this and in fact, this is usually what I like about it, the "high". It may not be the progesterone but it's what happens when you take progesterone, part of the package!  ;D

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After the drowsiness and dizziness goes away, the level of allopregnanolone can remain at normal usable levels. Yes progesterone itself drops but the studies can indicate a 12 hour and 18 hour levels may still be in the useful blood range.

They may remain in the "useful" range but nonetheless, the quick drop can result in mood swings.

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This is something I intend to find out for myself when I get another blood test. If it does not stay in the range I would like it to be I will ask my doctor for a higher prescribed dosage. Many have a dose twice what I am taking currently. I will also consider taking the doses 12 hours apart.

I've taken HIGH doses for 3 years and taken twice daily. Been there, done that. I'm glad it's over! I looked like a potato! Even my recent experimentation with taking some through my vulva is ending up being a disaster, mostly I dislike the effects. :( Ciswomen need to contend with it because it's part of being pregnant and increases during the latter half of their cycle but we don't. :)

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It is not prudent to discredit this from the studies you have found alone. The targeted effect of those studies was not specific to trans women either. This make all studies merely  relevant only as guidelines for us and the doctors. They provide grounds for theories and following testing of theories only.

Based on studies and my own experience, 3 years of continuous taking and at other times, also taking less.

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What I am saying is do not believe what so many trans women who claim to know the only way this should be done and think about the entire picture. Once you start reading into the full scope of receptor activation and modulation as well as the spider web of metabolites used in the body you find one fact is self evident. "Nothing is simple about this, nothing".

I've been reading about progesterone since 2004, going through dozens and dozens of studies in women, primates, rats/mice, reading about other transwomen's experiences with it (some good, some bad) and had my own experience with it.

I think I'm done with it. To each their own. Some apparently like it, everyone is different. :)
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005

Offline LShipley

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Re: Orchiectomy is NOT needed to discontinue taking anti-androgens!!!
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2017, 07:43:46 am »
A little late to the party but i posted recently about this.

I am still on finasteride and progesterone but my dr dropped the high dose of spiro completely with my switch to injections last month. They explained recently when i asked that they believe the finasteride and progesterone combined with the injections will be enough and my t levels have been perfect prior to this.

I was skeptical but i now have experienced symptoms that suggest my testosterone is lower than before. I will know for sure in another month and ill be sure to share

Offline LexiDreamer

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Re: Orchiectomy is NOT needed to discontinue taking anti-androgens!!!
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2017, 02:24:17 pm »


I was skeptical but i now have experienced symptoms that suggest my testosterone is lower than before. I will know for sure in another month and ill be sure to share

Can you share what your symptoms are, please?
*** Any suggestions I make should never be used as a substitute for licensed medical advice ***
*** All of my personal pharmaceutical experiences I share, have been explicitly supervised by a licenced medical professional ***

Offline LShipley

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Re: Orchiectomy is NOT needed to discontinue taking anti-androgens!!!
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2017, 03:14:23 pm »
Can you share what your symptoms are, please?

Well my libido had been up in the first several weeks of switching to injections. After the 1st month of no blocker it dropped again and when I finally DID do something I had zero production as in a totally dry orgasm when previously there would be at least something.

So that makes me think my T levels went back to being okay, despite it feeling like the T levels rose in the first few weeks of switching. I am not 100% convinced my regiment is perfect quite yet, but it is enough to make me relax until my next blood test in Feb.

Offline LexiDreamer

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Re: Orchiectomy is NOT needed to discontinue taking anti-androgens!!!
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2017, 11:43:16 am »
Well my libido had been up in the first several weeks of switching to injections. After the 1st month of no blocker it dropped again and when I finally DID do something I had zero production as in a totally dry orgasm when previously there would be at least something.

So that makes me think my T levels went back to being okay, despite it feeling like the T levels rose in the first few weeks of switching. I am not 100% convinced my regiment is perfect quite yet, but it is enough to make me relax until my next blood test in Feb.


Interesting. I've found my libido has been higher since switching to EV injections myself.
My (penile) orgasms still produce fluid albeit very clear fluid and with less volume than before HRT, but I've never had a "dry" orgasm. 
My total T tested out at 14 ng/dL 5 weeks after starting injections, so I am pretty confident my T has not gone back up.

A friend of mine has been on HRT for about same amount of time as me, and she says her (penile) orgasms are as you described "dry", and also her libido is very low. The difference is she is still taking full HRT doses of Oral Estradiol, Spironolactone and Finasteride.

I've been trying to convince her to see about getting her spiro dosages reduced, but I suspect the Finasteride may be causing some of her issues as well. Seeing that you're on Finasteride and seem to have some of the same symptoms reinforces that notion for me.


*** Any suggestions I make should never be used as a substitute for licensed medical advice ***
*** All of my personal pharmaceutical experiences I share, have been explicitly supervised by a licenced medical professional ***

Offline LShipley

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Re: Orchiectomy is NOT needed to discontinue taking anti-androgens!!!
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2017, 07:52:48 pm »
Seeing that you're on Finasteride and seem to have some of the same symptoms reinforces that notion for me.

What symptoms are those?

Offline LexiDreamer

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Re: Orchiectomy is NOT needed to discontinue taking anti-androgens!!!
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2018, 08:21:57 am »
What symptoms are those?

Low libido and "dry" orgasms.
*** Any suggestions I make should never be used as a substitute for licensed medical advice ***
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Offline Izzy Grace

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Re: Orchiectomy is NOT needed to discontinue taking anti-androgens!!!
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2018, 03:06:24 pm »
This was my intention at my upcoming first appointment was to go on (via my endo) "high" E via injection at least once a week if not twice a week and allow it to control my T and thus avoid the AA's and their associated side effects. Then after I had been on it and reached certain levels and a certain breast stage (tanner3), add progesterone (micronized) rectally into it.

There is a doctor who adopted this method of "high" E to control T instead of AA', and even then only bical, in part for safety and in part from working with an online group of trans researchers that works on this idea via studies, etc. He even has his documents out and freely available with his findings and I believe the entire group uses these methods with their Endos.

Apparently, this was an early method but the estrogens they had at the time, well as we all know, they posed serious risks to our health especially with higher doses.
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Re: Orchiectomy is NOT needed to discontinue taking anti-androgens!!!
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2018, 04:35:57 pm »
This was my intention at my upcoming first appointment was to go on (via my endo) "high" E via injection at least once a week if not twice a week and allow it to control my T and thus avoid the AA's and their associated side effects. Then after I had been on it and reached certain levels and a certain breast stage (tanner3), add progesterone (micronized) rectally into it.

There is a doctor who adopted this method of "high" E to control T instead of AA', and even then only bical, in part for safety and in part from working with an online group of trans researchers that works on this idea via studies, etc. He even has his documents out and freely available with his findings and I believe the entire group uses these methods with their Endos.

Apparently, this was an early method but the estrogens they had at the time, well as we all know, they posed serious risks to our health especially with higher doses.

I know the FB group you are talking about, the doctor, who is a member that group, didn't come up with the "protocol" they recommend, that was invented by the Admins.

The page is a shame really, for as much as they get right, they get far more wrong - and you can't speak up about it or you will be banned from the page.

Don't trust their "research" or their "data", do your own..

Offline KayXo

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Re: Orchiectomy is NOT needed to discontinue taking anti-androgens!!!
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2018, 10:36:05 am »
Don't trust their "research" or their "data", do your own..

+1
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005

Offline LShipley

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Re: Orchiectomy is NOT needed to discontinue taking anti-androgens!!!
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2018, 08:08:46 pm »
Low libido and "dry" orgasms.

lol those are symptoms I looked forward to from HRT before even starting but I haven't had that experience with Finasteride myself..

I have been on Finasteride all year last year as well as the spiro - it was not a new addition and I never really noticed any side effects personally from taking it besides my hair improving honestly. and as for low libido I just said that it raised after stopping spiro and then went back down to what it was after a couple weeks

Offline LShipley

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Re: Orchiectomy is NOT needed to discontinue taking anti-androgens!!!
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2018, 07:30:12 am »
Hi all, i thought i would provide an update on the topic.

I just had my test results and after almost 3 months without a blocker my T levels are still only 19. I do take finasteride and the dr wants to increase my E a little just to nudge it down a bit more, but the results surprised me. I thought my T levels would be much higher now without the full spiro blocker. Normally they would check every 6 months now but they are going to keep checking every 3 months to be sure.

So no more spiro dizzy spells, yay!

I do feel a little left out to be getting off the pickle train :(
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 09:50:15 am by LShipley »

Offline KayXo

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Re: Orchiectomy is NOT needed to discontinue taking anti-androgens!!!
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2018, 07:43:23 am »
I just had my test results and after almost 3 months without a blocker my T levels are still only 19. I do take finasteride and the dr wants to increase that a little just to nudge it down a bit more

Finasteride doesn't reduce T, it reduces DHT levels only and can actually slightly increase T levels as a result.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005

Offline LShipley

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Re: Orchiectomy is NOT needed to discontinue taking anti-androgens!!!
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2018, 09:51:23 am »
Oops! Thank you, i typed too quick on my phone :) my e was increased a little, not finasteride

Edited original comment above

Offline Izzy Grace

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Re: Orchiectomy is NOT needed to discontinue taking anti-androgens!!!
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2018, 05:56:11 pm »
Update: I am on injections of EV
<No dosages please> 
I do the injections subcutaneous in my stomach on alternating sides.
My test came in at 374pg and my T at 30

2 Months in I have decent breast development. No AA was used. I'm waiting to reach tanner stage 3 breast development before we start progesterone. I may do topical tho face and breasts. Unsure yet. We're discussing based on Powers findings and notes.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 06:32:35 pm by Kendra »
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