Author Topic: Romans 1:26-27  (Read 1667 times)

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Offline Susan

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Romans 1:26-27
« on: March 05, 2018, 06:30:01 pm »
Someone on twitter tried to pull this out as a clobber verse against transgender acceptance.

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Romans 1:26-27 Should you believe.

So I went and looked up the verse in question.

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21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.

27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.


28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,

30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;

31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.

Extra verses included so you can see the ridiculous lengths this person went to try to condemn the transgender. It's much different when you read it in the full context isn't it.

I then responded with Matthew 19:12:

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For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their  mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, made eunuchs of  men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the  kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Which is pretty much right on the point...

and this personal comment:

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Me I was born that way. Either way I dealt with my faith issues and came to the conclusion, Either God made me this way, or he allowed it to happen either way he's not gonna have a problem with my fixing it.

Please feel free to share other bible verses people try to use to condemn you for your gender identity and your responses to them.

The most important thing you can do in encounters like these is stay calm, civil, and rational. What someone else says about you says nothing about you and everything about them.
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Offline DawnOday

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Re: Romans 1:26-27
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2018, 07:38:16 pm »
Matthew 22 36-40
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. That is the end all be all of my Christian belief. None of the other babble matters.
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Offline SadieBlake

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Re: Romans 1:26-27
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2018, 12:50:00 am »
26,7 read to me as speaking to sexual preference, not gender identity and certainly those are some of the quotes from the bible that some christians use as arguments against LGB people.

I can't find any instances of people seriously using those paragraphs to address trans and those that do correctly understand the difference between preference and identity.

IAC I don't spend time arguing sexual or gender identity with believers in dog, it's been my experience that those who choose to castigate trans people.do so without care for either science or biblical truth and with cultural animus, not logic and at best a self serving version of compassion that's bound up in cissexist privilege.
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Offline Lady Sarah

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Re: Romans 1:26-27
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2018, 10:38:40 am »
Matthew 5, 29-30

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
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Offline Michelle_P

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Re: Romans 1:26-27
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2018, 03:03:16 pm »
I have a number of handy citations I pull out in dealing with selective Bible quoters.  Two can play that game.  12 years of Catholic schools left a few positive marks behind in spite of everything else. :)

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John 9:3 His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but this happened that the works of God would be displayed in him.

Some folks seem to forget this bit.  It might be important...
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Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' (Matthew 22:37-39)

But it is interesting that some feel fit to judge others...
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James 2:3-4 And if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

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Matthew 7:1-29“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. ...
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Offline Michelle_P

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Re: Romans 1:26-27
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2018, 03:07:08 pm »
I also like to reference Matthew, “The Parable of the Talents”.  I used this in explaining my transition to my son, a devout Christian who now accepts me.

The discussion generally enters into the Parable like this:

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God does sometimes grant us gifts to use in our lives, if only we can recognize them. What we do with those gifts matters.

Recall the "Parable of the talents".  A man going on a journey calls his three servants together.  He entrusts 5 talents (a talent is about 80 pounds of silver, roughly 20 years wages at the time.) to one servant he sees as being very able, 2 talents to a capable servant, and one talent to the third servant.  Then, he leaves.  The servant with 5 talents invests them, and makes another 5 talents.  The servant with 2 talents invests them, and earns another 2 talents.  The third servant buries his talent, fearful of risking it.   The man returns after a long period and settles accounts with them.  The first servant returns 10 talents, the original 5 plus the investment gain, and the man praises him, granting him a high position.  The second servant returns 4 talents, the original 2 plus the gain, and the man praises and promotes him as well.  The third servant returns the original talent he buried.  The man decries his wicked and slothful ways, takes the one talent from him and gives it to the servant with the 10 talents.  "For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.  And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Now, when I was created, I had a family that was fairly well off, a good home, and I would develop with an intelligent and curious mind, the potential for a good education, as a white male.  I think God looked at this and thought "OK, this one has it pretty easy, and needs a special challenge to fully develop.  I think I'll give this one the soul of a woman and see what they do with that."  God caused my mother and doctor to use a new medication, DES, that made my brain ready to receive a female soul.

Now, having been granted this gift, and realizing what I have, what am I to do with it?  Shall I bury it, hiding it from the light, so at the end of my days I can only return this gift, unused and uninvested?   Or should I bring this gift into the light of day, use it to it's fullest extent, to let it grow and flourish, for the benefit of myself and those around me, so I may return this gift manyfold at the end of my days?

Now, there are those who would have me bury it, suffer in silence, for this gift makes them uncomfortable.  At The End Of Days, they may very well be cast into the outer darkness.  In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Thank you, Jesuits!  ;)
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Offline BlueJaye

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Re: Romans 1:26-27
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2018, 06:18:37 am »
Hi, Susan, I found your topic while exploring the board. I have written several responses on Quora under my pseudonym “Casey Jones” to questions about Christianity and being transgender. Here is a link that I think many might find helpful.

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-okay-to-be-Christian-and-a-transgender-person/answer/Casey-Jones-271?share=0e86fb0b&srid=pPLse

I sincerely believe that there is a ton of deliberate ignorance among the Christian community regarding what it means to be transgender. As a Christian myself, I want transgender people to know that they are loved by Jesus and can have a place in His kingdom just like anyone else.

The unhelpful Christians who run around condemning transgender people for suffering from something they don’t understand are like the Pharisees that Jesus condemned in Matthew 23:4 “They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger“. Rather than befriending transgender people, understanding their struggles, and loving them as themselves (as Jesus commanded) they are taught only to condemn.

Offline AnneK

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Re: Romans 1:26-27
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2018, 09:38:58 am »
When people quote the bible, it's often to advance their own particular agenda and ignore the context of what they're quoting.

There's some other nonsense going around, where the world is supposed to be clobbered by another planet today, based on a quote from Revelations.

http://torontosun.com/news/weird/end-of-the-world-on-april-23
I'm a 65 year old male who has been thinking about SRS for many years.  I also was a  full cross dresser for a few years.  I wear a bra, pantyhose and nail polish daily because it just feels right.  I am exploring where I want to take things.

Offline BlueJaye

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Re: Romans 1:26-27
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2018, 10:38:06 am »
When people quote the bible, it's often to advance their own particular agenda and ignore the context of what they're quoting.

There's some other nonsense going around, where the world is supposed to be clobbered by another planet today, based on a quote from Revelations.

http://torontosun.com/news/weird/end-of-the-world-on-april-23

I’ve seen the stuff about April 23rd and it’s all silly nonsense. I don’t want to hijack Susan’s original post by discussing it too much. I will just say that Revelation gives a list of very specific events that must occur before the end of the age and they haven’t happened yet.

Offline HughE

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Re: Romans 1:26-27
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2018, 06:59:34 am »
Galatians 3:28 should surely settle the issue of whether transgender people have a place in the Christian religion.

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"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

If you read the  commentary here:

http://biblehub.com/galatians/3-28.htm

That verse is specifically an admonition that Christians should be accepting of all people, regardless of their race, social status or gender.

It also wouldn't hurt to point out that the weight of scientific evidence points to transgender being a form of intersex, and that many of us are the way we are, because of a medical mishap (doctors prescribing hormones to pregnant women without appreciating that they can disrupt the process of sexual development in the unborn baby, leading to situations such as the brain failing to masculinise/becoming inappropriately masculinised).

You could also point them to this article I found:

http://www.grace.church/jesus-our-model-ministry-disabled

Before anyone blows their top at me for talking about being trans in the context of disabilities, I know that with appropriate hormone treatment and surgery, most of us can go on to lead relatively normal, fulfilling lives! Nonetheless, being trans does arguably count as a form of disability, because it's a difference that has a physical developmental basis (atypical hormone levels during prenatal development), and it requires substantial and ongoing medical intervention to rectify.

Offline Mendi

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Re: Romans 1:26-27
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2018, 10:30:07 am »
I don´t have a bible verse to quote, but...

What more proof is needed, that the soul exists, than a transgender person, who doesn´t recognize her/his body as his/her own.

Offline AnneK

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Re: Romans 1:26-27
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2018, 11:45:42 am »
I don´t have a bible verse to quote, but...

What more proof is needed, that the soul exists, than a transgender person, who doesn´t recognize her/his body as his/her own.

How does that prove there's a "soul"?  All it shows is that there are some people whose brain doesn't match their body.  IIRC, brain scans can show a difference between male and female brains and transgender people are closer to what they think they are than the body they're born with.
I'm a 65 year old male who has been thinking about SRS for many years.  I also was a  full cross dresser for a few years.  I wear a bra, pantyhose and nail polish daily because it just feels right.  I am exploring where I want to take things.

Offline Mendi

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Re: Romans 1:26-27
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2018, 12:58:27 pm »
How does that prove there's a "soul"?  All it shows is that there are some people whose brain doesn't match their body.  IIRC, brain scans can show a difference between male and female brains and transgender people are closer to what they think they are than the body they're born with.

Mainly trying to think from a Christian perspective.

And to me, it has been clear always, that whatever I am, a soul, a brain, or someting else, I am not this body. That I´ve felt always so clearly.

Offline AnneK

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Re: Romans 1:26-27
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2018, 02:33:26 pm »
Mainly trying to think from a Christian perspective.

And to me, it has been clear always, that whatever I am, a soul, a brain, or someting else, I am not this body. That I´ve felt always so clearly.

Therein lies the problem.  Believers assume that what they believe is fact and there is no other possibility.  A few years ago, someone else tried telling me that I couldn't have morals, if I wasn't Christian.  That likewise is nonsense, as morals are not limited to any religious group.  It's how someone behaves etc., that demonstrate morals, not what church or other organization they belong to.  To claim otherwise is just plain arrogance, which last I heard was a sin.
I'm a 65 year old male who has been thinking about SRS for many years.  I also was a  full cross dresser for a few years.  I wear a bra, pantyhose and nail polish daily because it just feels right.  I am exploring where I want to take things.

Offline MsAnnaLynn

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Re: Romans 1:26-27
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2018, 07:30:24 am »
My go to verse for finally being comfortable with beginning my transition at age 65 is Galatians 3:28 New King James Version (NKJV)
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
If you are a believer you are truly free. Not to go out and sin your butt off, but to get rid of anything that creates a distraction in your relationship to God.
Many Christians think so little of God that they concentrate on the creation and then turn certain verses to their 'favor' in justifying themselves.
Something in my life has been no less of a defect than any other birth defect. These things happen in the world because of sin that came into the world. We are to overcome the defect. Would you deny a faulty heart valve repair, or cleft palate surgery.
My answer is something happened and Christ can fix it, All glory to God.

Offline DawnOday

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Re: Romans 1:26-27
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2018, 01:55:58 pm »
I remember most of the church's my Grandparents used to drag us to had the following message posted by the door..."All are Welcome"
Dawn Oday

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Offline SarahM777

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Re: Romans 1:26-27
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2018, 08:22:51 pm »
Someone on twitter tried to pull this out as a clobber verse against transgender acceptance.

So I went and looked up the verse in question.

Extra verses included so you can see the ridiculous lengths this person went to try to condemn the transgender. It's much different when you read it in the full context isn't it.



Susan,


 You may also want to place that section of scripture within it's entire context. (A Lot of people will only quote verses 26-27 some will quote the part of the passage that you did also) The problem with both of those is you will lose what Paul is actually trying to get to which is an expansion of what Jesus said here.


Matthew 7

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.


Paul continues his thoughts in Romans 2


You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; 18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19 if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”
25 Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26 So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the[c] written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

Paul's point is about not judging. The question that needs to be asked is when Paul says therefore what's it there for.
And this is what it's there for
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

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Offline ErinWDK

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Re: Romans 1:26-27
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2018, 09:14:36 am »
Paul's point is about not judging. The question that needs to be asked is when Paul says therefore what's it there for.
And this is what it's there for
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

This.

Paul is making a rhetorical argument.  Those who grab Romans 1:26-27 and think it a good justification to point their fingers at others fall into his argument and hang themselves with Romans 2:1.  This proves the folly of trying to take one verse out of context and say the Bible says whatever you want.  Oh my!

Offline SarahM777

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Re: Romans 1:26-27
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2018, 07:16:38 am »
This.

Paul is making a rhetorical argument.  Those who grab Romans 1:26-27 and think it a good justification to point their fingers at others fall into his argument and hang themselves with Romans 2:1.  This proves the folly of trying to take one verse out of context and say the Bible says whatever you want.  Oh my!

It makes one wonder how much of the Bible they have actually read and studied. Peter himself says this about Paul's writings

2 Peter 3

14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen

So now you have Peter warning against distorting Paul's writtings. And Peter even calls those who do so IGNORANT and UNSTABLE. (HMMM Could it be......????)


And then James says this


James 2


8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.”[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.


James is in line with Jesus and Paul and the warnings they give are so clear and yet so often they are ignored by those who think they got it but certaintly do not act like it.




Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor

Offline Deborah

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Re: Romans 1:26-27
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2018, 12:56:35 pm »
Paul said you should judge other Christians and throw them out if they are immoral.  He wrote this in the very earliest letter contained in the New Testament.

1 Corinthians 5:9–13 (RSV2CE): 9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men; 10 not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the Church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. “Drive out the wicked person from among you.”


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Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired

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