Author Topic: It is so ingrained  (Read 1753 times)

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Offline KimOct

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It is so ingrained
« on: February 16, 2019, 09:30:44 pm »
What I am referring to is how deeply ingrained transphobia is in our society.  The instance that made me bring this up occurred last night at work.  I work in a large casino - and I walk into the break room with about 10 other dealers in there at that moment.  A guy ( Scott ) is telling a story and doesn't see me come in he is facing the opposite direction.

Scott is a very nice friendly guy that I have been acquaintances with for many years.  When I came out a few years ago he was cool right from the start and always makes small talk with me.  He is a good guy.

So as I walk in I hear him saying 'yeah she said her name was Emily but she had a deep voice and an adam's apple".
Laughing ensued and I walked in at exactly the wrong moment - too late to stop but soon enough to hear it.

So I make a joke out of it and say 'hey I'm standing right here - at least talk about me behind my back".  Everybody laughed and Scott says 'Kim you are great" and I looked like a good sport.  But I didn't feel so good.  People are used to this stuff.  They see on TV and movies - hear it in comedy acts - jokes told by friends - I just saw an insurance TV commercial recently that was supposed to be funny cuz the guy was wearing a dress.

Back to poor Scott - many people reading this probably think he is a jerk.  He really isn't.  But he grew up in the same society that causes us to have our own internalized transphobia.  No wonder this is so hard for many of us.

I don't like telling this story.  There are many here that are trying to summon the courage to transition or even go out in public.  This doesn't encourage them.  I like to encourage them but I also must be honest.

The silver lining to the story is that it does get easier.  2 years ago this occurrence would have put me in a tail spin for a week.  It would have been so painful and I would ruminate about it.  Does it hurt now?  Yeah a little bit but not much.  I am actually writing about it to make 2 points.

One is the title of this - transphobia and us being the butt of comedy is deeply ingrained in our society.
Second is the silver lining - eventually you get over it.  It stung a little bit now - in the past it would have really hurt.

It wasn't Scott's fault I know he wouldn't intentionally hurt me.  It was living in this world that has portrayed us in this light. 

As I often do I direct your attention to my signature line.
The first transphobe you have to conquer is yourself

Online Devlyn

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Re: It is so ingrained
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2019, 09:47:28 pm »
The worst part is that I experience more transphobia here on the site than I do out in the world.

Offline jill610

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Re: It is so ingrained
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2019, 11:04:09 pm »
The worst part is that I experience more transphobia here on the site than I do out in the world.

^^ this is so true.

I had to develop new coping mechanisms as I transitioned and humor seemed to be the one that stuck because it diffuses awkward situations. There’s nothing easy about this.



Offline Complete

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Re: It is so ingrained
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2019, 11:28:54 pm »
The worst part is that I experience more transphobia here on the site than I do out in the world.

Ok. I am confused. What am l missing here?

Offline Jessica

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Re: It is so ingrained
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2019, 01:05:12 am »
The worst part is that I experience more transphobia here on the site than I do out in the world.

If any member experiences harassment in the form of transphobia on this site, they need to report it to the Moderators so that there is documentation.
Complaining about it on the open forums does nothing to stop it.

"If you go out looking for friends, you are going to find they are very scarce.  If you go out to be a friend, you'll find them everywhere."

Offline KimOct

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Re: It is so ingrained
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2019, 02:43:23 am »
The worst part is that I experience more transphobia here on the site than I do out in the world.

Yeah I didn't understand your comment either Devlyn.  There are several ways I could see to interpret it.
The first transphobe you have to conquer is yourself

Online Kirsteneklund7

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Re: It is so ingrained
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2019, 04:23:07 am »
To a certain extent we have a responsibility to make others feel at ease and educate them so they can understand what trans really is.

 I think Kims response in the situation was laudable. Perhaps the worst thing we can do is create a tense walking on eggshells environment where our transwoman response is to bite someones head off or show over the top hypersensitivity and deep offense.

 Most people respond well with rociprical respect( and humor ) sometimes we just need to throw them a bone.

 Kirsten

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Offline Sienna Grace

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Re: It is so ingrained
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2019, 06:18:48 am »
But it is changing. I am a teacher who presents as male at work. My colleagues know both versions of me but to the best of my knowledge my students have no idea. Anyway last Friday a 14yo female student is delivering a class presentation. Her chosen topic was ‘gender equality’. The student delivered a really powerful and passionate presentation which included the line ‘gender is a spectrum not a binary’. I was gob-smacked! I asked her later why she had used the line - thinking she had some exposure to the trans experience. She replied that she read a lot because she is passionate about the subject. What staggered me was what she said next when I suggested she held a sophisticated view. “I don’t think so Sir, it’s just obvious!”

The world is becoming more beautiful because of our children and the work we and our sisters before us have done. Let’s not dwell on the negative. Let’s focus on the positive.

I have not yet met one person who has been unkind to me because of my gender choice.

Thanks for reading 💋

Si xx

Offline Lynne

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Re: It is so ingrained
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2019, 08:00:03 am »
Most people never really had to think about their gender or gender roles so the concept of trans people is quite alien to them and they don't really understand it. That doesn't justify any transphobic behavior of course and many people should use better judgment when speaking about the subject but they are simply not there yet.

And to reflect to Devlyn as well, I totally understand where she is coming from. Just because someone is trans it doesn't mean they are educated about the subject and I've seen and heard many hurtful and transphobic comments from trans people over the years. It's like if I have a condition that requires surgery, that doesn't make me a surgeon.

Better education, especially for the young, is the key I think and we can only hope that someday a new generation will grow up which will handle diversity a lot better.
I feel we live in a strange time. On one hand minority groups are louder than ever and political correctness is everywhere, on the other hand this seems to cause some opposition, as if change is forced on people too quickly and probably with not the best methods.

Offline jill610

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Re: It is so ingrained
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2019, 08:09:38 am »
I think political correctness is an issue because people suddenly feel that they cannot speak their minds or need to suddenly repress themselves. For example the whole “holiday tree” thing. No, it’s a Christmas tree. End of story.

My belief is that transphobia as the OP refers to it is two different things,  one is bigotry - there is certainly no shortage of actual dislike and hatred. And the other is lack of understanding or exposure and compassion. This is where I think we need to have the same compassion we seek - the majority of people have never knowingly interacted with a trans person and if they did, that person was likely early in transition or the minority that is over the top and that the media likes to popularize. I have heard the statement many times, usually at work, that I am educating everyone around me on what trans really is. Not through any specific thing other than those around me seeing the change over time.

We do live in an interesting time where we ourselves are also more transparent about being trans, which is different from the past need for “stealth”. 



Online Devlyn

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Re: It is so ingrained
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2019, 08:43:30 am »
If any member experiences harassment in the form of transphobia on this site, they need to report it to the Moderators so that there is documentation.
Complaining about it on the open forums does nothing to stop it.

I understand that. I wasn't complaining, just stating a fact. You know as well as I do that some people here do not recognize or accept people who are outside the binary, some here don't recognize crossdressers and transvestites as part of our community. That's a fact.

I don't think pointing out the truth is complaining.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn


Offline HappyMoni

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Re: It is so ingrained
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2019, 10:35:18 am »
Let me make this statement, "I hate the term 'political correctness."

Now, I much rather replace that term with "being respectful of others feelings," but as I am passionate about it, I might use this phrasing. So, since Lynne started using the term and Jill spoke about it also, I could see that they might think I am attacking their position. In reality, I am not, but in my exhuberance and passion, I may piss them off with my statement. This happens a lot on Susan's. Someone is passionate, not intending to offend, but offense then happens. So, what is the solution? Being mindful (respectful) of how we say things might work! I try to do this. Of course, being binary minded, I might sometimes forget that not everyone is like me, but I try not to assume they are. So, if I watch my wording to respect the non binary folks, I am being politically correct? Or am I being respectful?

So, I am lost in my own argument here. lol Did I piss off the anti-politically correct side or the anti-transphobic side? Hopefully nobody, hopefully we don't pick sides and we treat each other with kindness and respect. (Oh crap, now I just pissed off the anti-kindness lobby!!! Ahhhh, I'm okay with that!  ;D )
Moni
Please understand that I tried to use a little humor to illustrate my point here. I only have three politically correct non binary folks chained in my basement at any one time, so please cut me some slack.
If I ever offend you, let me know. It's not what I am about.
"Never let the dark kill your light!"  (SailorMars)

HRT June 11, 2015. (new birthday) - FFS in late June 2016. (Dr. _____=Ugh!) - Full time June 18, 2016 (Yeah! finally) - GCS June 27, 2017. (McGinn=Yeah!) - Under Eye repair from FFS 8/17/17 - Nose surgery-November 20, 2017 (Dr. Papel=Yeah) - Hair Transplant on June 21, 2018 (Dr. Cooley-yeah) - Breast Augmentation on July 10, 2018 (Dr. Basner in Baltimore) - Removed bad scarring from FFS surgery near ears and hairline in August, 2018 (Dr. Papel) -Sept. 2018, starting a skin regiment on face with Retin A

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Offline KimOct

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Re: It is so ingrained
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2019, 11:14:33 am »
Devlyn thanks for the clarification - I agree.  I am glad my position on NB folks has become more enlightened.

Moni - I thought it was funny.

Thanks to everyone that posted so far - some very good points.

I work nights right now - going back for a little more sleep. nighty night.
The first transphobe you have to conquer is yourself

Offline Lynne

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Re: It is so ingrained
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2019, 11:14:44 am »
Let me make this statement, "I hate the term 'political correctness."

Now, I much rather replace that term with "being respectful of others feelings," but as I am passionate about it, I might use this phrasing. So, since Lynne started using the term and Jill spoke about it also, I could see that they might think I am attacking their position. In reality, I am not, but in my exhuberance and passion, I may piss them off with my statement. This happens a lot on Susan's. Someone is passionate, not intending to offend, but offense then happens. So, what is the solution? Being mindful (respectful) of how we say things might work! I try to do this. Of course, being binary minded, I might sometimes forget that not everyone is like me, but I try not to assume they are. So, if I watch my wording to respect the non binary folks, I am being politically correct? Or am I being respectful?

So, I am lost in my own argument here. lol Did I piss off the anti-politically correct side or the anti-transphobic side? Hopefully nobody, hopefully we don't pick sides and we treat each other with kindness and respect. (Oh crap, now I just pissed off the anti-kindness lobby!!! Ahhhh, I'm okay with that!  ;D )
Moni
Please understand that I tried to use a little humor to illustrate my point here. I only have three politically correct non binary folks chained in my basement at any one time, so please cut me some slack.

I think I get what you are trying to say and I'm not really fond of the term myself, I used it because I have this feeling that political correctness is becoming more than being respectful. As Jill said, it's going too far in limiting what can be said and sometimes I feel like some people or groups go out of their way to get offended and that does not help our cause at all.

Offline HappyMoni

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Re: It is so ingrained
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2019, 04:16:49 pm »
Lynn, I get that some things are taken to extremes and ridiculous situations can result. All too often I think some people consider people on the trans 'spectrum' to be being extreme. Some folks act like it is 'just so much work' to take into account people who do 'that kind of stuff.' Rather than use a little brain power, the haters often dismiss us as 'having an agenda' or 'political correctness' run amuck. We just want basic human rights. Sorry if it makes their brains hurt.
To your point Kim, you handled it very well, I thought. I don't want to not be able to laugh at myself as a trans person. There are some funny things that could be invoked related to us. The thing is, you don't kick someone when they are down. As a group, we have been crapped on, gotten very little respect, and been the punch line to so many mean jokes. Let society give us a little respect and then yeah, maybe I'll be more inclined to be able to take some good natured joking. It would be interesting to see if your friend would have told that 'joke' in front of you. I doubt it. Some folks are into telling mean jokes (dark humor) but that is more of a two way street with both parties participating. (Your Mama jokes come to mind) This wasn't what your person did. I hope to live long enough to appreciate a good 'how many trans people does it take to screw in a light bulb?' joke. Given a little respect, I could see that could be funny.
If I ever offend you, let me know. It's not what I am about.
"Never let the dark kill your light!"  (SailorMars)

HRT June 11, 2015. (new birthday) - FFS in late June 2016. (Dr. _____=Ugh!) - Full time June 18, 2016 (Yeah! finally) - GCS June 27, 2017. (McGinn=Yeah!) - Under Eye repair from FFS 8/17/17 - Nose surgery-November 20, 2017 (Dr. Papel=Yeah) - Hair Transplant on June 21, 2018 (Dr. Cooley-yeah) - Breast Augmentation on July 10, 2018 (Dr. Basner in Baltimore) - Removed bad scarring from FFS surgery near ears and hairline in August, 2018 (Dr. Papel) -Sept. 2018, starting a skin regiment on face with Retin A

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Offline HappyMoni

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Re: It is so ingrained
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2019, 05:42:49 pm »
I received this following statement from a forum member on a pm conversation.

"They are right, without that surgery I cannot f***** like a woman, but what if I have no plans to do that anyway?  Is femininity reduced to an artificially created hole between the legs of a trans woman?"

Is this a transphobic statement or just a veiled expression of hostility?
I fountit totally ignorant and aggressively hurtful.

It seems to me, it is her perspective which is legitimate for her life. She is expressing it in hostile terms, maybe because someone expressed shutting out her type of femininity as legit. Sounds like she is very frustrated with others. It's not my place to judge her for having/not having surgery.
If I ever offend you, let me know. It's not what I am about.
"Never let the dark kill your light!"  (SailorMars)

HRT June 11, 2015. (new birthday) - FFS in late June 2016. (Dr. _____=Ugh!) - Full time June 18, 2016 (Yeah! finally) - GCS June 27, 2017. (McGinn=Yeah!) - Under Eye repair from FFS 8/17/17 - Nose surgery-November 20, 2017 (Dr. Papel=Yeah) - Hair Transplant on June 21, 2018 (Dr. Cooley-yeah) - Breast Augmentation on July 10, 2018 (Dr. Basner in Baltimore) - Removed bad scarring from FFS surgery near ears and hairline in August, 2018 (Dr. Papel) -Sept. 2018, starting a skin regiment on face with Retin A

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Offline Complete

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Re: It is so ingrained
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2019, 06:20:59 pm »
It seems to me, it is her perspective which is legitimate for her life. She is expressing it in hostile terms, maybe because someone expressed shutting out her type of femininity as legit. Sounds like she is very frustrated with others. It's not my place to judge her for having/not having surgery.

I think you are right.  I thought about that too. That this was an expression of frustration at having been attacked, b (perhaps), for not having srs. I can certainly understand that because,  afterall,  it is up to each one of us to define our own understanding of ourselves,  no one else.
I just think it is important to understand that all of us have different needs.

Offline TonyaW

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Re: It is so ingrained
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2019, 08:59:40 pm »


Let me make this statement, "I hate the term 'political correctness."

Now, I much rather replace that term with "being respectful of others feelings," but as I am passionate about it, I might use this phrasing. So, since Lynne started using the term and Jill spoke about it also, I could see that they might think I am attacking their position. In reality, I am not, but in my exhuberance and passion, I may piss them off with my statement. This happens a lot on Susan's. Someone is passionate, not intending to offend, but offense then happens. So, what is the solution? Being mindful (respectful) of how we say things might work! I try to do this. Of course, being binary minded, I might sometimes forget that not everyone is like me, but I try not to assume they are. So, if I watch my wording to respect the non binary folks, I am being politically correct? Or am I being respectful?

So, I am lost in my own argument here. lol Did I piss off the anti-politically correct side or the anti-transphobic side? Hopefully nobody, hopefully we don't pick sides and we treat each other with kindness and respect. (Oh crap, now I just pissed off the anti-kindness lobby!!! Ahhhh, I'm okay with that!  ;D )
Moni
Please understand that I tried to use a little humor to illustrate my point here. I only have three politically correct non binary folks chained in my basement at any one time, so please cut me some slack.

You are quite right that political correctness  is really about being respectful. I won't say its never gone too far, who's to judge that? Usually when some one spouts off about it going to far, what they really mean is "I can't say whatever hurtful, ignorant, or bigoted thing I used to say without getting called out for it". 


Lynn, I get that some things are taken to extremes and ridiculous situations can result. All too often I think some people consider people on the trans 'spectrum' to be being extreme. Some folks act like it is 'just so much work' to take into account people who do 'that kind of stuff.' Rather than use a little brain power, the haters often dismiss us as 'having an agenda' or 'political correctness' run amuck. We just want basic human rights. Sorry if it makes their brains hurt.
To your point Kim, you handled it very well, I thought. I don't want to not be able to laugh at myself as a trans person. There are some funny things that could be invoked related to us. The thing is, you don't kick someone when they are down. As a group, we have been crapped on, gotten very little respect, and been the punch line to so many mean jokes. Let society give us a little respect and then yeah, maybe I'll be more inclined to be able to take some good natured joking. It would be interesting to see if your friend would have told that 'joke' in front of you. I doubt it. Some folks are into telling mean jokes (dark humor) but that is more of a two way street with both parties participating. (Your Mama jokes come to mind) This wasn't what your person did. I hope to live long enough to appreciate a good 'how many trans people does it take to screw in a light bulb?' joke. Given a little respect, I could see that could be funny.

So how many trans people does it take to screw in a light bulb? I think we can tell the jokes about ourselves.

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Offline LizK

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Re: It is so ingrained
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2019, 09:15:08 pm »

You are quite right that political correctness  is really about being respectful. I won't say its never gone too far, who's to judge that? Usually when some one spouts off about it going to far, what they really mean is "I can't say whatever hurtful, ignorant, or bigoted thing I used to say without getting called out for it". 


So how many trans people does it take to screw in a light bulb? I think we can tell the jokes about ourselves.

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I think you are right @TonyaW having a sense of humour is important. Many of us take things very seriously and I guess that is expected because for many of us it is a very serious subject. My partner and I have had a good laugh at things I have tried that didn't work or situations we find ourselves in. It helps to relieve the tension is some cases and build the relationship.

@HappyMoni I have to agree with much of what you say...being politically correct can end up badly interpreted or misinterpreted. Writing can be such an imperfect way of communicating and things so easily get lost or their true intention totally missed. I don't think Aussies or Kiwi's for that matter are renown for out political correctness and tend to call a spade a spade.


I saw a comment the other day on another platform where and Aussie guy said "I don't get the whole trans thing but then who am I to judge being a 40+ balding idiot" he went on to say "you do you" and respect costs nothing....he was attacked for saying he didn't get the "whole trans thing" where in actual fact I think he was a pretty decent guy as he was all about everyone being who they are and other respecting them. In the end he got annoyed with the people arguing and it disintegrated into a slanging match.

Just my 2cents worth

Liz
Transition Begun 25 September 2015
HRT since 17 May 2016,
Fulltime from 8 March 2017,
GCS 4 December 2018
Voice Surgery 01 February 2019

Offline KimOct

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Re: It is so ingrained
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2019, 09:19:35 pm »
To your point Kim, you handled it very well, I thought. I don't want to not be able to laugh at myself as a trans person. There are some funny things that could be invoked related to us. The thing is, you don't kick someone when they are down. As a group, we have been crapped on, gotten very little respect, and been the punch line to so many mean jokes. Let society give us a little respect and then yeah, maybe I'll be more inclined to be able to take some good natured joking. It would be interesting to see if your friend would have told that 'joke' in front of you. I doubt it.

I agree I doubt he would have started the story if I was sitting in front of him.  That's kind of the point.  He is a good guy but he has grown up in this world where we are considered a joke.  He is part of societal conditioning and it did not occur to him that the joke could be hurtful. 

This same societal conditioning is why most of us including myself have to overcome our own internalized transphobia.  We have been conditioned to think there is something wrong with us and to be embarrassed.  If not then why would we all have needed to come out of the closet?  What were we in the closet for if we weren't hiding and why would we be hiding if we didn't think there was a reason to hide.

Where is the line between political correctness and being over sensitive?  I don't know.  We shouldn't go around acting like victims that is not the way to get people to like you.  But on the other hand we don't deserve to be looked at as a joke. 

And back to the 'hero' of our story Scott.  Is it his fault?  Maybe a tiny bit but he doesn't know any better - he is a decent guy that was conditioned to think we are to be laughed at.  Someday in the future hopefully it will be as distasteful as telling a racial joke.
The first transphobe you have to conquer is yourself

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