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Offline DawnOday

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Re: voice lessons worth it???
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2019, 03:42:44 pm »
Dietland.... Be who you want to be. This was the method used by my voice coach who graduated with honors from the University of Washington with a masters in Speech Pathology.  For myself it has helped however I do not talk like Meryl Streep or Sally Field, It's more about cadence and the difference between male and female speech patterns. You may have noticed ladies often answer questions in the form of a question. Where men have a inflection downward at the end of sentences, women have an upward inflection. Women generate speech from the diaphragm and men from the chest. Women forward resonate from the mouth Women tend to ask for opinions asking "What do you think" It also helps with subject matter. You may find a woman that can discuss a 440 hemi engine but those ladies are hard to find. Most women don't give a hang about the New England Patriots. They talk of kids, family, recipes, family vacations, and when they do get into deep conversations they tend to seek consensus. Where men tend to let their ego do the talking. It's much more than copying them. The one thing I do like to copy is smiling. As a guy, I hardly ever smiled.
Dawn Oday

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Offline Linde

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Re: voice lessons worth it???
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2019, 04:08:22 pm »
Dietland.... Be who you want to be. This was the method used by my voice coach who graduated with honors from the University of Washington with a masters in Speech Pathology.  For myself it has helped however I do not talk like Meryl Streep or Sally Field, It's more about cadence and the difference between male and female speech patterns. You may have noticed ladies often answer questions in the form of a question. Where men have a inflection downward at the end of sentences, women have an upward inflection. Women generate speech from the diaphragm and men from the chest. Women forward resonate from the mouth Women tend to ask for opinions asking "What do you think" It also helps with subject matter. You may find a woman that can discuss a 440 hemi engine but those ladies are hard to find. Most women don't give a hang about the New England Patriots. They talk of kids, family, recipes, family vacations, and when they do get into deep conversations they tend to seek consensus. Where men tend to let their ego do the talking. It's much more than copying them. The one thing I do like to copy is smiling. As a guy, I hardly ever smiled.
I understand Dawn  And I appreciate the credentials you speech teacher has.
I don't need to learn most of that because it is part of my nature, I had to acquire male speech patterns, and had to force my voice to be low.  I have a hard time to generate sounds in my chest, because I have a female type voice box (no Adams Apple to give room for a male type voice box), and trying to mimic low sounds make my throat hurt! The lowest I can get without straining my voice is to an androgynous voice level.

I have had female friends only for the last several years, and have no problem to maintain conversations with them all day long.  It is my habit of falling into the learned behavior of male speech pattern, once I am not around females (i.e. on the phone).  I have to unlearn this, I know my problem, and I know what to do about it, but I am currently busy with other problems of my body to put a lot of emphasis on this one, because i does not bother me a lot.

But I am not a good example for most transgender women, because like most of my body, my voice was also always more female than male.
Feb 2019, bi-lateral orchiectomy
June 10, 2019 Not enough Y chr detected to be male






Online Rachel

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Re: voice lessons worth it???
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2019, 05:54:17 pm »
I started out with 135 base pitch. I listened to a lot of u-tube videos. Then I had purchased a program and practiced every day to and from work in my car, about 1.5 hours per day for a year. Next, I had lessons from a speech pathologist. It was the same speech pathologist Dr. McGinn used. My results were ok.

I would record my voice daily when I practiced and later with the speech pathologist. I think hearing what you sound like is very important. I liked the analyzers too but hearing is very important. I think working on one thing a week and repeating it several thousand times at the sound that satisfies you is a good way to learn and change speech patterns.

Having a few ciswoman to talk to is a great way to mimic things like intonation, pitch variation and word choice. Woman say tummy not gut for example.

I think a good speech pathologist experienced with trans is a great opportunity to get professional feedback and help you with a hurdle (s).

I was not satisfied with just lessons. I put in a lot of effort and my voice just was not making it. I do know with telephone calls it is crucial to make a first sentence or two impact on the listener to get proper gendering. Once gendered properly on the phone then the listener pays less attention.  Try to answer the phone for impact and really focus on the first two or so sentences.

I had a CTS and my base went from 135 to 170 with a 20 Hz range. I would not recommend a CTS. I was gendered female about 50%of the time.

I had a glottoplasty and I was 212 to 230 base this morning first sounds out at 0500 in the parking garage at work. I record the pitch, temperature and humidity and a set paragraph that has variation 5 days a week. The issue I have is I am horse. I have one vocal fold that the scar tissue did not respond as planned. I see the doctor 3/27 about a steroid injection to soften the scar tissue. Hopefully the vocal fold will relax and both the left and right fold will work in unison, touch and my hoarseness goes away.

I think purchasing the vocal program from executive voice (Kathy Perez)  was worth the money.

I think Renee Blaker, my past speech pathologist was well worth the money (Insurance paid 80%).

My current speech pathologist and singing coach through Dr. Sataloff is worth the money ( The speech pathologist is covered by insurance 90%, in network. The singing coach is out of pocket).

I would not get a CTS, free or otherwise. It was very interesting as I was given fentanyl and local numbing. I was awake during the procedure. My neck was cut open and the cricoid cartledge was placed behind and up behind the thyroid cartledge.

I has a glottoplasty. It was a very aggressive glottoplasty. I have a pic of the healing web. It is the best web I have seen by far and the web healing was outstanding. I have seen the doctor perhaps 3 times since the glottoplasty. I have Reinke's edema on the left vocal fold compensating for the right vocal fold that is too stiff. The injection on 3/27 will loosen the right vocal fold and it will come in contact with the left vocal fold and the edema will go away. Hopefully I will have a beautiful voice.

I have learned how people treat other people that have a vocal impairment from not being able to speak to having an extremely low volume. My volume is fine now but during the recovery I was very low. The one vocal fold is compensating for the other.

I only have a head voice now. All of my voice is focused behind my nose and nasal area. I have no chest vibrations not could I ever get my chest to vibrate.

 I have had a few times my circulatory system out paced my breathing ability. This occurred in a fast pace rucking with 90 pounds up hill and twice when spinning. I know I have to remain calm even though there is panic I can not get enough air in and out quick enough. I know I need to slow the pace and relax and not tense up. Having a high percent glottoplasty increases healing issues and leaves you with a reduced area to allow air in and out of your lungs.

having a low percent web glottoplasty will increase your pitch but may require vocal projection.

This is the extent of my vocal experiences to date. I will have a beautiful clear voice. It is a matter of a little more time and perseverance.
HRT  5-28-2013
FT   11-13-2015
FFS   9-16-2016 -Spiegel
GCS 11-15-2016 - McGinn
Hair Grafts 3-20-2017 - Cooley
Voice therapy start 3-2017 - Reene Blaker
Labiaplasty 5-15-2017 - McGinn
BA 7-12-2017 - McGinn
Hair grafts 9-25-2017 Dr.Cooley
Sataloff Cricothyroid subluxation and trachea shave12-11-2017
Dr. McGinn labiaplasty, hood repair, scar removal, graph repair and bottom of  vagina finished. urethra repositioned. 4-4-2018
Dr. Sataloff Glottoplasty 5-14-2018
Dr. McGinn vaginal in office procedure 10-22-2018
Dr. McGinn vaginal revision 2 4-3-2019 Bottom of vagina closed off, fat injected into the labia and urethra repositioned.

Offline NatalieRene

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Re: voice lessons worth it???
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2019, 06:43:22 pm »
I think purchasing the vocal program from executive voice (Kathy Perez)  was worth the money.

She does very good work for anyone living in the area where she is, she also does in person voice coaching.

Offline NatalieRene

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Re: voice lessons worth it???
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2019, 09:03:57 pm »
Here is another voice example and a transcript. I think for some of the people here that are working on their voice it would help to try making your own recordings or participate in voice chat. Nothing helps like using it. :)



I'm not sure what frequency my pitch started off at. It was under gender neutral but it was never super low. My largest improvements came from when I went full time and was utilizing my voice training all the time because made I it a point not to talk in a male speech pattern so I would fully immerse myself.

There have been times when I have been self conscious about my voice and wondered if I pass but what really helped me was playing games online with voice chat [one of my favorites back in the day was Second Life]. I have found that online the guys tend to go all doe eyed and it has opened my eyes up to just how much I can have handed to me if I play the voice up nicely. The men trip all over themselves and it is cute. However then the aspect of not being listened to seriously when the strategy is involved even though in MMO games I play the role of the tank. I get talked over all the time. I have no doubt in my mind that I am not getting misgendered.

One exercise I suggest for people is try speaking your post while you are writing it. Don't just read the post because you need to be able to think about what you are going to say while using the female speech patterns. This type of exercise will help with making it second nature where you don't have to think about it so if you get upset or surprised your voice doesn't default to the old voice but instead this becomes your new default voice.

Offline Linde

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Re: voice lessons worth it???
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2019, 11:03:58 pm »
You are good girl!  You sound to me like a younger female sounds, very natural and no slips to be heard, not even a trace of a slip.

My voice is more that of an older woman (which I am of course), and some of my cis women friends of the age bracket have even lower pitch voices than I do.
What I don't have down pad, is not to fall back into that male type of speech.  I have no problem when around women only, but as soon as I have to answer to a guy, I switch onto this guy thing.
I had visitors today, two women and one man.  I did a nice female to female conversations with the ladies, but if the man interjected something, I answered him in my male voice, to switch back to the female voice again talking with thee ladies.
I know each time when I do it, but at that time it is o late to prevent it.  Oh well!
I wonder what happened to our Skype voice stuff, and later the discord server voice stuff?
Feb 2019, bi-lateral orchiectomy
June 10, 2019 Not enough Y chr detected to be male






Offline NatalieRene

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Re: voice lessons worth it???
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2019, 11:41:31 pm »
You are good girl!  You sound to me like a younger female sounds, very natural and no slips to be heard, not even a trace of a slip.

My voice is more that of an older woman (which I am of course), and some of my cis women friends of the age bracket have even lower pitch voices than I do.
What I don't have down pad, is not to fall back into that male type of speech.  I have no problem when around women only, but as soon as I have to answer to a guy, I switch onto this guy thing.
I had visitors today, two women and one man.  I did a nice female to female conversations with the ladies, but if the man interjected something, I answered him in my male voice, to switch back to the female voice again talking with thee ladies.
I know each time when I do it, but at that time it is o late to prevent it.  Oh well!
I wonder what happened to our Skype voice stuff, and later the discord server voice stuff?

I’ve popped into the rooms several times and it is always empty. I’m always open to talking. I enjoy the practice.

Offline KatieP

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Re: voice lessons worth it???
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2019, 12:14:22 am »
You are good girl!  You sound to me like a younger female sounds, very natural and no slips to be heard, not even a trace of a slip.

My voice is more that of an older woman (which I am of course), and some of my cis women friends of the age bracket have even lower pitch voices than I do.
What I don't have down pad, is not to fall back into that male type of speech.  I have no problem when around women only, but as soon as I have to answer to a guy, I switch onto this guy thing.
I had visitors today, two women and one man.  I did a nice female to female conversations with the ladies, but if the man interjected something, I answered him in my male voice, to switch back to the female voice again talking with thee ladies.
I know each time when I do it, but at that time it is o late to prevent it.  Oh well!
I wonder what happened to our Skype voice stuff, and later the discord server voice stuff?

I think this is yet another example of where speech pathologists come in. One of the suggestions from mine was to listen to women close to my age. It turns out that Carolyn Kennedy is my age, so I listened to several interviews with her. Her voice is in fact lower than mine, but far more feminine than mine. In listening to her, my speech pathologist helped me know what to listen for, and how to analyze the recordings I made of both her and me.

As just one example, in English, emotion comes from the vowels in a word, not the consonants. So, any time we elongate, or emphasize a vowel, it sounds more feminine. There were 20 other things she told/taught me about listening to voices.

Another thing my speech pathologist helped me with is actually talking while thinking about those 20 things I was supposed to think about. THAT was a lot of work and a lot of practice, and a lot of recording and listening.

I think this is an example of something that would help you too, Dietland. It seems you blend in with whom you are talking. Instead, you need to think VERY much about how you say each word, and still come up with coherent thoughts. A speech pathologist can help you do that until you don't have to think so much about it.

I was on a customer call today with an account team. For reasons, I was going to be in the call speaking as a male. But when it came to talk, I was excited enough and just started blurting out, and it came out female. I caused a bit of confusion actually. I attribute that completely to my speech pathologist...

Kate

Offline NatalieRene

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Re: voice lessons worth it???
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2019, 06:35:43 am »
For sure. To get the voice to sound feminine without thinking about it was the hardest part and I did encounter what Dietlind was going through but with enough voice training and practice eventually that goes away.

Offline Linde

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Re: voice lessons worth it???
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2019, 07:32:31 am »


I think this is an example of something that would help you too, Dietland. It seems you blend in with whom you are talking. Instead, you need to think VERY much about how you say each word, and still come up with coherent thoughts. A speech pathologist can help you do that until you don't have to think so much about it.

Kate
I don't really know what would work best with me Kate, probably somebody with a baseball bat behind me?
I learned most of my English (beyond the school stuff) from my wife who was a professor teaching foreign language acquisition to future high school language teachers.
Because of tis, I might have a lot of that female stuff already as part of my day to day language.  Because I had to really work on sounding like a male (frequency of voice, it hurts my throat when I try to speak with a chest resonance voice), I might have learned this so well that I have a hard time to let go of it if I hear a guy?
My first language was a southern version of Dutch, almost identical to the language spoken in South africa, and the second, the one I spoke for half of my life, is German.  I have to figure out, how a male speech pattern sounds in these languages (compared to a female one), and this might be the real key to my problems, when speaking English?

I am pretty sure that I need some professional analyzing what is going on with my speech, if i want to eliminate this.  But , on the other hand, I don't need to sound different than I do currently, because i am 99% of my time with women, and when with male, like on the phone, it might be of advantage to sound like a male?  Who knows?

Why on earth did nobody warn me that it is not easy to become a woman?   ??? if I would have any balls (no pun intended), I would become a guy instead!  >:-)
Feb 2019, bi-lateral orchiectomy
June 10, 2019 Not enough Y chr detected to be male






Offline Tribble

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Re: voice lessons worth it???
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2019, 01:25:30 pm »
When I'm relaxed and comfortable, I think I sound pretty good.  When I'm home, around my husband or at my parents' house (especially when my dad was alive) I always tensed up and went more toward a lower, definite masculine voice.

I've been questioned by Social Security and health insurance agents due to my paperwork all saying "male" and have been close to having agents hang up on me because they didn't believe I was who I said I was.

My voice recognition is far, far, far better than my facial recognition.  I can almost always tell when I'm hearing a transgender person speaking (MtF or FtM), but I was blown away by my nurse practitioner yesterday.  I saw her picture on her business card before she entered the room yesterday, but the woman that actually came in to talk to me was not the woman on that business card!  I'm not sure if she's further along with HRT or if she's had facial surgery, but you wouldn't be able to tell by her voice.  Not one bit.

I was in my semi-male role yesterday during our appointment, so my voice was pretty tense.  I loosened up somewhat by the end of our appointment, but she did mention voice therapy at one point and after hearing her voice, I would certainly agree that it could help!

When I first transitioned, I'd found Melanie Anne Phillips' site and paid attention to every word she wrote.  I sang along with female singers (Cirque du Soleil's Alegria, Evanescence, etc.) every time I was in my car.  I talked on the phone with my girlfriend and was conscious of every sound I made.  Eventually, I thought I'd made it, but my NP yesterday...wow.  I was simply blown away!

And, oh yes, that drive-thru trick is fun and evil!  Love, love love the looks I get when I've done that! :D

I should also mention that having pets can be a blessing in this respect.  I've had people come into a room I was in asking if it was just me.  "Yes."  "Oh, I heard a woman talking."

This was just prior or transition.  If you haven't transitioned yet, people can be more forgiving if you're practicing while talking to animals.
2003-2004 -- Gradual transition -- I didn't correct pronouns and people basically settled on the right ones on their own.
late 2004 -- Orchiectomy.
Late 2015 -- Stupidly saw the political climate and spurned on by my husband's request for a divorce I detransitioned.
2019 -- Rebuilding my wardrobe so I can retransition.  Turns out I cain't bury my true self, after all.  I call these last few years my failed experiment.  At least I found my true feelings were real.

Offline Tribble

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Re: voice lessons worth it???
« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2019, 04:38:16 pm »
Update on my last post:

So, it turns out I embarrassed the hell out of myself when I very cautiously asked her if I could ask a personal question and told her the signs I read that led to my question...she's not, in fact, trans at all.  Ugh.  Well, now I feel stupid!

I still asked about voice training and she gave me some resources for that.  It's still one of my goals, but I've lost a little bit of hope for my future and what can be achieved.
2003-2004 -- Gradual transition -- I didn't correct pronouns and people basically settled on the right ones on their own.
late 2004 -- Orchiectomy.
Late 2015 -- Stupidly saw the political climate and spurned on by my husband's request for a divorce I detransitioned.
2019 -- Rebuilding my wardrobe so I can retransition.  Turns out I cain't bury my true self, after all.  I call these last few years my failed experiment.  At least I found my true feelings were real.

Offline NatalieRene

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Re: voice lessons worth it???
« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2019, 05:07:31 pm »
Update on my last post:

So, it turns out I embarrassed the hell out of myself when I very cautiously asked her if I could ask a personal question and told her the signs I read that led to my question...she's not, in fact, trans at all.  Ugh.  Well, now I feel stupid!

I still asked about voice training and she gave me some resources for that.  It's still one of my goals, but I've lost a little bit of hope for my future and what can be achieved.

This is one reason why etiquette dictates that you don’t ask and let them bring it up if they want to discuss it.

Offline Tribble

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Re: voice lessons worth it???
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2019, 06:20:15 pm »
This is one reason why etiquette dictates that you don’t ask and let them bring it up if they want to discuss it.

You are exactly right, of course.

It's not a question I would object to in a similar situation, given where we were and what this appointment was about, but I understand that others may have issues with that sort of probing and I will be respectful of that in the future.

I did let her know that my reasons for asking were not visual nor audible clues (voice), but something specific that she said in response to something I said.  Even so, I should not have asked.
2003-2004 -- Gradual transition -- I didn't correct pronouns and people basically settled on the right ones on their own.
late 2004 -- Orchiectomy.
Late 2015 -- Stupidly saw the political climate and spurned on by my husband's request for a divorce I detransitioned.
2019 -- Rebuilding my wardrobe so I can retransition.  Turns out I cain't bury my true self, after all.  I call these last few years my failed experiment.  At least I found my true feelings were real.

Offline KatieP

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Re: voice lessons worth it???
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2019, 12:29:32 am »
You are exactly right, of course.

It's not a question I would object to in a similar situation, given where we were and what this appointment was about, but I understand that others may have issues with that sort of probing and I will be respectful of that in the future.

I did let her know that my reasons for asking were not visual nor audible clues (voice), but something specific that she said in response to something I said.  Even so, I should not have asked.

It is soooooo hard not to say something, or hint, or push the conversation. I find I really want to talk to others like me. I virtually NEVER come in contact with other people I know to be transgender. Naively, it seems like it would be a very interesting conversation...

Kate

Offline NatalieRene

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Re: voice lessons worth it???
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2019, 12:34:28 am »
You are exactly right, of course.

It's not a question I would object to in a similar situation, given where we were and what this appointment was about, but I understand that others may have issues with that sort of probing and I will be respectful of that in the future.

I did let her know that my reasons for asking were not visual nor audible clues (voice), but something specific that she said in response to something I said.  Even so, I should not have asked.

Don’t give up though with training it’s possible. With training you can sound cis.

Offline Tribble

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Re: voice lessons worth it???
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2019, 06:01:14 am »
It is soooooo hard not to say something, or hint, or push the conversation. I find I really want to talk to others like me. I virtually NEVER come in contact with other people I know to be transgender. Naively, it seems like it would be a very interesting conversation...

Kate

Yes, sometimes it's very, very tempting, especially if you're not around other trans people often.  This was actually the first or second time I've ever "outed" someone, even if she wasn't trans.  The first time it happened, last year, I'm pretty sure when I said to someone, "Wait, you're trans?!?" she had specifically said something about transitioning or was explaining a situation that she was in that was specifically trans.  This was in an all-inclusive environment and she was open about it.  I told her I had no idea and she told me she thought I was just your bog-standard (my words) lesbian.  I was in semi-male mode at the time but using my gender-neutral voice.  I was just wearing a t-shirt but not my binder--this was when I was beginning to consider re-transitioning.  As I was new to the community again in general and had had almost no experience with the community in real life, I did ask the wrong question.  I asked, "Which way?"  I was told I should ask what pronouns a person prefers.  Totally understandable.

She was the first trans person that I know of that I could not immediately tell by their voice in my life, yet probably has that "squeaky" attribute my mom calls fake and cannot stand.

Don’t give up though with training it’s possible. With training you can sound cis.

I know it's possible, but up until last summer, I hadn't heard a single trans voice that I know of that I could not recognize as trans.  When I met my provider I thought I had met my second, so my excitement got the better of me.

I think I mentioned above that I've had people on the other end of phone conversations that had my birth gender information that have almost hung up on me because they did not believe I was who I said I was.

I wish I didn't immediately freeze when I knew there were recording devices around.  I need to get better about that so I can record myself and practice that way.

Before anyone gets too paranoid about their own voices...when someone chose the software that would be installed in my head they invested the most in voice-related programs.  Most people do not pick up on the cues that I tend to notice.

I hope to be investing in voice training soon.  My provider gave me a list of local coaches.
2003-2004 -- Gradual transition -- I didn't correct pronouns and people basically settled on the right ones on their own.
late 2004 -- Orchiectomy.
Late 2015 -- Stupidly saw the political climate and spurned on by my husband's request for a divorce I detransitioned.
2019 -- Rebuilding my wardrobe so I can retransition.  Turns out I cain't bury my true self, after all.  I call these last few years my failed experiment.  At least I found my true feelings were real.

Online sarahc

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Re: voice lessons worth it???
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2019, 07:06:11 am »
I am in the middle of voice therapy now - started three months ago. I have a bit of an unusual background in that I am a trained amateur singer and I am a tenor. I’m also very good at imitating voices and a lot of my training has been in trying to mimic women radio announcers, which has been really helpful. So getting to the target range has been pretty easy for me and with a bit of training, my voice is getting pretty good quickly. In hindsight, i think I probably could have trained my voice without therapy.

However, my therapist has been very helpful with non-verbal communication and style. I asked her to focus on that from my first session and she has been very tough (in a good way!). I am having to unlearn a lot of habits formed over decades. Progress has been slow but there has been progress. So the real benefit of voice training for me has been the non-voice stuff.
----
Known that I am trans since...forever.
First therapy session / decided to transition / hair removal: October 2018
HRT: January 2019 (journal https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,244009.0.html)
Hope to go full-time: September 2019
FFS: 2020
SRS: early 2021

Offline HappyMoni

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Re: voice lessons worth it???
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2019, 07:25:21 am »
Just found this thread and apologize if I missed this but I will go back and read in more detail later. Headed out the door soon.  Can anyone give a ball park idea of cost of voice therapy, length of time of a single session, and if any chance for insurance to cover. Oh, do you usually go weekly, monthly, depends?
Monica
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Offline ChrissyRyan

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Re: voice lessons worth it???
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2019, 07:52:57 am »
I have been practicing my voice.  I have missed a few days here and there but I realize that if I cannot sound cis this will make going full-time status not wise, at least for me. 

NatalieRene provided some good advice, tone practice videos, a voice app, and even recordings of her beautiful female voice on another voice thread here.

If I remember correctly prior posts here on other threads, at least one on VA veterans plans obtained voice therapy for as little as five dollars but private pay can cost quite a bit more. 

Chrissy
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