Author Topic: Do you think of yourself as intersexed?  (Read 1319 times)

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Offline Rachel

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Do you think of yourself as intersexed?
« on: March 16, 2019, 02:55:23 pm »
When I first saw my PA-c in 2013 for HRT I told him I believe I am I am intersexed due to my genitals and different body ratios such as leg to torso, index finger length, arm curvature, finger tip to finger tip length to height ratios. He was treating me for being trans and starting my HRT.

I had asked if he would refer me for genetic testing. He said it is not covered by insurance and it is expensive. Further, he said, what does it matter? He said so if you are how will it change things?

I did not say anything to him back but it made a huge difference. It would help me explain why I am trans. I felt very embarrassed being trans. I had a lot of negative feedback growing up.

I eventually showed the mental and psychological profile of a person that is intersexed to my then wife. She said it matched me exactly. I agree.

When Dr. McGinn examined me she  said I am intersexed and that she thought she could correct my genitalia but it was a 50/50 chance the graft would die. If that was the case she would use and alternate method.

I had no material to make labia minora and my entire glandes penis is now my clitoris and it is the perfect size. I had two procedures for clitoplasty. One was under general anesthesia and one with a local.

I have an operation in April for my vagina and surrounding area which is my third. I was going through my Aetna insurance paperwork and throwing some older approvals away. I came across my GCS surgery Aetna paperwork for the 11/15/16 surgery what they state is code 55970 intersexed surgery MTF.

My question
How do you see yourself?

I see myself as female and not intersexed. I never saw myself as intersexed. I considered myself as trans and later as transsexual but never as intersexed.  I was between spinning classes today and used the bathroom. There is a woman's and men's locker room with bathrooms in them. It is binary. So am I transsexual, intersexed or a woman? I see myself as a woman more than transsexual now.

I never considered myself intersexed as a sexuality. It is more an explanation as to why I see things mentally and psychologically the way I do. More so it explains my genitals or lack there of and body dimensions.  My legs are so long (very evident in spin class, I like long lean legs :) ) . How do you see yourself? I see myself as binary and I feel female.

To answer my PA-c I guess it really matters a lot. It is how I explain why I am and how I am. But then we are all unique.  It does not change anything but it explains so much that people that are not intersexed do not ever think about. But then again as time goes by and I continue to align and like who I am the differences really become less important. Although the leg thing is really good :)


MTF in need of help link https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,133631.1980.html
MTF in need of help 2 link https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,251825.0.html
HRT  5-28-2013
FT   11-13-2015
FFS   9-16-2016 -Spiegel
GCS 11-15-2016 - McGinn
Hair Grafts 3-20-2017 - Cooley
Voice therapy start 3-2017 - Reene Blaker
Labiaplasty 5-15-2017 - McGinn
BA 7-12-2017 - McGinn
Hair grafts 9-25-2017 Dr.Cooley
Sataloff Cricothyroid subluxation and trachea shave12-11-2017
Dr. McGinn labiaplasty, hood repair, scar removal, graph repair and bottom of  vagina finished. urethra repositioned. 4-4-2018
Dr. Sataloff Glottoplasty 5-14-2018
Dr. McGinn vaginal in office procedure 10-22-2018
Dr. McGinn vaginal revision 2 4-3-2019 Bottom of vagina closed off, fat injected into the labia and urethra repositioned.
Dr. Thomas FemLar scheduled 9/2020

Offline zirconia

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Re: Do you think of yourself as intersexed?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2019, 04:55:58 pm »
Yes, I guess...

At least my doctor seemed to think so when my first ever hormone tests came in. I don't think I'll feel convinced, though, unless I also see chromosome test results that also show something similarly significant.

In any case, to me intersex, while helpful and alluring, is first and foremost merely a diagnosis. I believe that the society I live in feels the same. After all, e.g. diabetics are seen as either male or female—and so will I always be, regardless of what my hormone levels / chromosomes may say.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 01:17:39 am by zirconia »

Offline ChrissyRyan

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Re: Do you think of yourself as intersexed?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2019, 07:57:52 pm »
No.  But I used to think that I was genderfluid and before that, simply mixed up!   :)


Chrissy
Always be kinder than needed.  Be tender to others.  You are as beautiful as the thoughts you think and the words that your speak.   Always stay cheerful, be polite, kind, and understanding.  Knowledge and action shown without love is not impressive.  If you look for the good in people you will find it. Healthy relationships are so important to good living.

Good living, joy, unity, love, and happiness can come from following these practices: Never let selfishness or conceit motivate you.  Regard others as more important than yourself.  Do not limit attention to only your interests, but include the interests of others

It is not usually about how fast you transition, it is about how well you transition.  

Offline josie76

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Re: Do you think of yourself as intersexed?
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2019, 05:48:26 am »
I didn't at first but I always wondered why I had such a wide pelvis. Then one day my doctor I was seeing, was checking my abdominal CT for possible kidney stones, He took one look and said they must have mixed up the scans. It is a woman's pelvis. This was before I had finally come out to my wife about my inner feelings. I grew up trying to hide my pelvis because I was ashamed to look even a bit girly. It seemed like a dead give away of the inner self I tried to hide.

Since then I asked that docotr about DES exposure. He was pretty sure it was unlikely. He did get me a karyotype that showed 46XY. Then he said I am most likely Androgen Insensative to some degree after we discussed my slight genetal deformations.

I had a urologist who did my orchi agree that partial androgen insensitivity was very likely. That gene sequence test is very expensive and my docotr said there is no medically necesary reason to get it covered by insurance so he didnt order it. Truns out the only treatment for AIS is hormonal therapy based on the patient's gender identity.

Whatever my particular mutation to the AR gene is, it seemed to affect my early bone and joint shape formation and to a smaller extent my genitals. Other docots have told me that the shape of certain bones is affected ear;y prenatally. In particular the sacroiliac joint shape in the pelvis. This sets the sacral tilt relative to the ilium. Also the joint profile pivot angles in the knees and elbows.
What I have learned from CT scans is that my bones fit closer to female than male using standard anthropologic skeletal sexing measurements. While I have some masculine traits after 40 years of testosterone exposure, they are minor to medium on the scales or in some ways non existant.
04/26/2018 bi-lateral orchiectomy
09/11/2019 PPV at IU Health (DaVinci robot laparoscopic Davydov with modified Chonburi Flap) w/ Dr. Gallagher, Dr. Koch, Dr. Roth assisting urology
03/02/2020 revision labiaplasty at IU Health w/ Dr. Gallagher

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I for one want to live now, not just exist!

Offline Linde

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Re: Do you think of yourself as intersexed?
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2019, 05:50:30 pm »
I do not understand, what my Klinefelter Syndrom (I am tested XXY, and some more stuff) or such has anything to do with a bathroom or dressing room?

I was born with a variety of intersex syndroms, I am not intersexed (funny term anyway).  This is a physical/biological condition of my body.  I am also transgender, because I was AMAB and transitioned into a woman.  This is a mental condition, my femle oriented brain and my male oriented body did not match!  I go to the bathroom that meets the gender I present with.  My body will always remain to have intersex syndromes, no matter whether I present as male or female.  Any gender affirming surgery changes only the exterior sex characteristics, but will never do anything about the biological makeup of my body!

I consider myself to be born with intersex syndromes, and being a transgender woman, one does not exclude the other!
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 07:26:21 pm by Dietlind »


GingerVicki

Re: Do you think of yourself as intersexed?
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2019, 10:33:23 pm »
Itersex is a medical diagnosis. It is either yes or no.

Offline Lady Sarah

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Re: Do you think of yourself as intersexed?
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2019, 11:28:00 pm »
I may have XY chromosomes, but there are things that indicate an intersexed condition. The most important is that just prior to my orchiectomy, the surgeon was looking at my xrays, and told me my pelvic bone is typical for a female, and if there was anything he should know. I have also had 2 other doctors that told me I was made for birthing children.

Puberty started at age 17 for me. At age 25 (when I started HRT) i was still not sexually mature. Pelvic rotation took place. Within a week of HRT, people noticed enough changes to know I was changing from male to female.

Do I consider myself intersexed? Yeah, but it doesn't change anything.
started HRT: July 13, 1991
orchi: December 23, 1994
trach shave: November, 1998
married: August 16, 2015
Back surgery: October 20, 2016

GingerVicki

Re: Do you think of yourself as intersexed?
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2019, 01:12:18 am »
We are all different and I do not believe that XY defines our gender or sexuality. Intersex is a very specific diagnosis and requires a medical diagnosis.

I doubt that it really matters myself.

Offline Linde

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Re: Do you think of yourself as intersexed?
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2019, 01:23:12 am »
We are all different and I do not believe that XY defines our gender or sexuality. Intersex is a very specific diagnosis and requires a medical diagnosis.

I doubt that it really matters myself.
It does only if, like in my case, one never developed any secondary male sex characteristics, and thus has it way easier (from the appearance of ones body) to change into a female.  I did not have to bother with all the stuff, others have to deal with in order to eliminate all those secondary things.  I had never any body hair, I did not need to remove it.  I have no Adams Apple, I don't need surgery to shave it.
But the mental part of the  transition does not change at all.  I was socialized as a male, and have to change all this learned behavior to be a female.

But I still don't understand why being a person with intersex syndromes cannot be a trans person at the same time?


Offline Undead Cat

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Re: Do you think of yourself as intersexed?
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2019, 11:56:33 pm »
Intersex and Trans are words to be used as qualities or adjectives, saying stuff like "the Transgender" or "the intersex" is quite inadequate .

There's men who are Trans,  men who are intersex and men who are intersex but also Trans, same applies for women, trans women, intersex women, trans and intersex women.


Trans and intersex are considered 2 different things in a lot of places (however some places consider being trans as an intersex syndrome called "the Henry Benjamin syndrome")


There's cis guys who are intersex and cis girls who are intersex too.

many people describe being trans as not identifying with the gender identity you were recognized as at your birth, so even if you were recognized as intersex boy at your birth, you could grow up to be a cis intersex boy or a trans intersex girl , doesn't really matter. What's sad that some intersex babies with ambiguous genitalias at birth are still mutilated in order to be recognized as any binary gender identity at birth In majority of these cases, but still it also happens to babies with penises to get mutilated with circumcisions but nobody talks about how disturbing this really is.

some countries recognize intersex as being a "third sex" or considered another gender identity , as for a sex,  it's wrong to recognize intersex as another biological sex, it's just an quality of some males and some females , even biology doesn't recognize only 2 human sexes,  actually biology recognizes 2 genetic sex GROUPS,  males and females, there's lots of different ways to be considered genetically a male or a female and here's where being intersex comes into, there's not a single way of being a male or a female, there's really lots of genetical variants of males and females and intersex variants enter this.

and even for biology sex isnt easy to determine either , there's genetic sex we already talked , and also anatomical sex and physiological sex,  so there's a lot of stuff to vary among people far from the "ideals" of male and female that societies and cultures believe in.



Some people consider being a intersex cis guy, trans guy, whatever as being part of their gender expression that encompasses what people's bodies looks like.

Now for gender identity, there's nothing stopping anyone to call their gender identity as "intersex" and as part the non-binary gender identities umbrella, heck, inside that umbrella there's even people who are "waffle-gender", so nothing stops you.

Offline Rachel

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Re: Do you think of yourself as intersexed?
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2019, 07:05:07 pm »
Dr. McGinn said I am intersexed. It does explain a lot of differences. For example I am post op and my whole gland penis was used. My clitoris is small, very small. I have no labia minora from penile tissue as there was no penile tissue to use. There are other variations too.

Anyhow, I always felt I am a female. HRT and all the procedures I had ( all my GCS operations and procedures were ceded intersexed) did not make me feel intersexed or less intersexed. I just became more at ease with myself and my identity.

So I did not or do not feel intersexed. I have body ratios that are way off like arm to height and leg to torso ratios, others too. Having really long legs is ok as a lot of people comment on my long legs in a positive way.

So I do not consider myself intersexed. I consider myself transsexual but not intersexed. I think of it now as something that makes me unique but not the diagnosis. I am not profound intersexed so maybe that is part of it too.

I think of myself as a trans but not intersexed. I guess what I am saying is my identity is not intersexed. I have a set of physical attributes that collectively is called intersexed.

If Dr. McGinn did not do the three operations and 2 (will be 3) procedures I think I would have considered my outcome in a very negative light. Instead I love my equipment.  I fit my identity and my genital intersexed part is corrected ish.
MTF in need of help link https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,133631.1980.html
MTF in need of help 2 link https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,251825.0.html
HRT  5-28-2013
FT   11-13-2015
FFS   9-16-2016 -Spiegel
GCS 11-15-2016 - McGinn
Hair Grafts 3-20-2017 - Cooley
Voice therapy start 3-2017 - Reene Blaker
Labiaplasty 5-15-2017 - McGinn
BA 7-12-2017 - McGinn
Hair grafts 9-25-2017 Dr.Cooley
Sataloff Cricothyroid subluxation and trachea shave12-11-2017
Dr. McGinn labiaplasty, hood repair, scar removal, graph repair and bottom of  vagina finished. urethra repositioned. 4-4-2018
Dr. Sataloff Glottoplasty 5-14-2018
Dr. McGinn vaginal in office procedure 10-22-2018
Dr. McGinn vaginal revision 2 4-3-2019 Bottom of vagina closed off, fat injected into the labia and urethra repositioned.
Dr. Thomas FemLar scheduled 9/2020

Offline Maid Marion

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Re: Do you think of yourself as intersexed?
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2019, 08:37:34 pm »
AMAB but female clothes fit amazingly well on my hourglass figure.  Yes, I have nicely proportioned hips and my legs are slightly long for my size! I look really good in a crop top and short shorts! Since I'm too small to wear men's clothes I really have no choice if I want to look good.

My father had MPB but I'm in my mid 50s and the hair on my head still looks pretty good.  At my age a frizzy bad hair day is better than some of the alternatives!

Offline Linde

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Re: Do you think of yourself as intersexed?
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2019, 11:47:30 pm »
I know that  I am intersex (I hate the term intersexed), because I have XX chromosomes, and not an Y near or far.  However, I was born with male genitalia, and have one ovary.  And XX and those genitals make me to be intersex.
I am in my mid 70's, and still have a full head of hair, no signs of any type of male hair loss.


Offline Rachel_Christina

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Re: Do you think of yourself as intersexed?
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2019, 04:14:51 am »
If science figures that there is some sort of real physical difference in the brain of transsexual people then yes I am sure they will eventually class it as intersex.
If it is only a mental condition as someone mentioned then no it would not be defined under the intersex umbrella



Offline F_P_M

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Re: Do you think of yourself as intersexed?
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2019, 07:28:36 am »
I find a degree of comfort in the idea personally. Perhaps because it "explains" something, or perhaps because it just makes me feel less "trapped" in a female body to believe it's not fully female.
Whatever the case, I find comfort in the idea my body isn't entirely typically feminine or female and that my form instead lies somewhere in between.

I enjoy my androgynous features, I enjoy my natural virilisation and there's a degree of solace in the theory that the hormonal disorder I have could be determined as being a form of biochemical intersex condition.

Certainly my body has no idea how to do male or female, so it sits in the middle in a confused state of uncertainty. I don't produce hormones in approriate ratios or when I do the result isn't what you'd expect. For example my last blood test was "normal female levels" and yet i'm suffering very very badly from pretty extreme symptoms of imbalance that's simply not showing up in my blood. I'm also not having cycles that are at all normal. If my hormone levels were normal, I wouldn't be having mentral issues, I wouldn't be having the symptoms of estrogen dominance, I wouldn't be so sick. And yet I am because my body doesn't function the way medical science has decided bodies should.
My body isn't normal, which means that "normal" hormone levels for me are NOT normal. if that makes sense.

I don't know precisely what's wrong with me, just that something is and has been all my life. I've never had a normal experience with hormones since puberty, i've always had problems and always struggled. My body can't produce what it needs, it gets confused and then all hell breaks loose.

I do know that i'm XX, but that's about as much as I know genetically as from my understanding the testing they did never really went into much detail. However, the fact my specialist saw fit to test my chromosomes in the first place is curious, as they don't do that by standard and she got super strange about explaining WHY.
I'm still not totally sure what she saw that made her question my chromosomes. I assume some element of my virilisation had her wondering? Who knows.

thing is, I don't have high t. Never have. My t levels are LOW, even for a woman. And yet I have virilisation, so what is that about? I mean how does that even make sense?

I remember when I hit puberty it was a confusing mess. I got periods but I also started to grow body and facial hair. I got the serious sweat issues teen boys get too. I sorta got a double whammy of BOTH and it was wierd but at the time I had no frame of reference and assumed everyone went through that.
But no, generally speaking, girls don't grow facial hair at puberty. Especially not girls with LOW testosterone in their systems.
Whoops?
One theory is that i'm actually extremely sensitive to sex hormones in general and so even the teensy tiny amount of t in my system is "enough" but we've never confirmed that.

So yeah, whether it's true or not, I find comfort in believing myself to sit somewhere in the middle. I mean, i'm certain i'm not a biologically "normal" or "standard" female, if I was I wouldn't have such problems. Leaving my brain and gender identity out of it and just looking at it from a purely biological and scientific perspective, this body is NOT normal and there's something wierd about it.

I suppose it all just comes down to semantics and how you define "intersex". But certainly in my mind, my body isn't really fully female and I find that reassuring. I think i'd be a lot more dysphoric if it was. My hormonal issues SUCK but the virilisation is awesome and helps a LOT. I'd just like to not be in pain anymore, because sadly the imbalance causes me a LOT of pain.

Is it strange that I honestly hope they find something that confirms this "not really female" theory? Because I do, I really do. Every time they find something and tell me it's "normal female" I feel a twinge of disappointment and dismay.

I suppose I just prefer to think of myself as having a not entirely female body. All the little not totally female elements make me feel better. I have remnants of the male duct system for example, which isn't that uncommon but delighted me to find out. Being told "yeah you have some of the male duct system, it didn't dissolve like it was supposed to" made it feel I suppose like I had something MALE inside of me, part of me. It felt right and good and correct. When I get told "you have male pattern hair growth" I sorta cheer inside.
It affirms my gender identity I suppose.

so yeah, I take comfort in it.

It helps me to think of my body as not totally female.

Offline DebbieB

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Re: Do you think of yourself as intersexed?
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2020, 10:56:56 pm »
I had always wondered if I was intersexed.  Even as young as 2 years old, my mom noticed that I wasn't like the other boys.  By 3 years old I had made friends with the girls in the neighborhood and continued to be "one of the girls" until I was 6 and was forced to go play with the boys.

By the time I was 10 I was clearly what we now call Transgender, I knew I had a girl brain, and I wanted to be a girl, and spent most of the summer doing the housework in my mom's clothes while my siblings played down the block.  My mom caught me once but refused to even discuss it with me.  A few days later, my dad started giving me the "birds and bees" talk.  Actually, a rather in depth course in male and female reproductive systems, parts, and what to expect during puberty.  Toward the end, I realized that in addition to being much smaller than other boys my age, I was missing something that was in the book and that other boys usually had.

When I asked my dad about it, he told me that my testes were up inside me where ovaries would be and that they might have to do surgery to bring them down.  I was furious when they actually came down, but even then my puberty was flaky at best.  My body hair came in very thin and boys teased me about that, and about how small I was.  At the same time, I had 38-28-38 figure and from the back looked a LOT like a girl.  My singing voice dropped to bass, but I also had a 3 octave range, and my speaking voice was still rather high.

Eventually, a girlfriend noticed that I had a zig-zag seam along the bottom of my scrotum, quite different from anything she had ever seen before.  She said it looked like a surgical scar, but I had not had any surgeries in that area that I knew of.

Eventually, I did come out as trans, and when I came out to my family, my father was upset and said "do you have to throw it in my face!".  I thought he was rejecting me, but I later found out that it was something very different.

A few decades later, my father was on his death bed and his first conversation was "If I can't give you anything else, I have to give you this.  Be yourself, even if that means being Debbie.

Later, as he realized he might not be able to speak to me much longer, he begged me to forgive him and he was crying.

"When you were born, the doctor said there were some problems and I needed to decide whether you should be a boy or a girl.  You mom had been through 50 hours of labor so I couldn't ask her, and I decided to make you a boy because I thought you would have more opportunities as a boy.  Obviously I got it wrong!".

It turned out that my mom had been taking DES to prevent a miscarriage since she had already had one and my grandmother had had three and several of my aunts had also had miscarriages and their doctors had given them DES to keep them from losing the baby.

The developers of DES paid for the surgical correction at birth, but the parents were never allowed to tell the child.  If they did, the parents would have to pay for the very expensive operation.  Because of this, my parents had to avoid any conversation about my gender identity and my doctors and psychologists were not allowed to discuss it with me either.

It turned out that they had been giving me shots of cortisone and testosterone for the first 18 months of my life, and when I was about 11 years old, I was getting "allergy shots" which were actually IM testosterone on a weekly basis.  Again, they couldn't tell me what was happening or what they had already done.

Around age 11, I started having severe cramps and constipation for 2-3 days followed by blood in my stools.  It was so painful that for the first several months, I woke my parents up with my screams of pain and crying.  When they saw the blood, they thought  I was having periods.  Eventually, my mom solved the problem by giving me laxatives every time her period started, which solved my problem, even though I kept bleeding every 4 weeks.



Even as an adult, I did produce some testosterone, but very low levels for a male, yet just enough to override the estrogen my kidneys were producing.

I understand why my dad made the choice he did, but I did find it bizarre that the Pharma company tried so hard to keep it a secret and refused to help when the mistake became self-evident.

DES was used from the late 1940s through the early 1980s and frequently caused "gender ambiguity" which was corrected based on different criteria.  During the 50s and early 60s, they usually asked the father.  During the 70s, they used something called a phallometer - if the "penis" was less than 1 inch (2cm), they turned the baby into a girl, otherwise they turned it into a boy, without ever telling the parents.

There was a rather elaborate cover-up of these DES related "Gender ambiguity" problems to keep it on the market, because they didn't want to have it banned the way thalidomide had been banned after producing babies with flippers with flippers instead of arms.

Nobody knows for sure how many "ambiguous" children were born during those DES years because records were deliberately NOT kept.  Some estimates were as high as 1 in 20 babies whose mothers took DES required "correction" at birth.
Debbie Ballard - IT Architect
1st Transition 1988 to 1997 - detransitioned
2nd Transition 2010
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Offline Rakel

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Re: Do you think of yourself as intersexed?
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2020, 05:41:31 am »
The effects of DES on genetic male babies pre natal brain development has not yet been definitely clarified.

At one time, an internet survey of genetic males who have documented history of their mothers taking DES during their pregnancy claimed about 30 to 40% of these males had gender issues of some sort. More recent larger studies can not confirm this.

We do know about the relationship between DES and certain cancers and some birth defects. The exact effects of DES on a developing genetic male brain is still open to research. The big problem is that the records of mothers who took DES are not available. DES was banned about 50 years ago in the US, so this cannot explain the gender issues for those of us under 50 years of age.





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Offline DebbieB

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Re: Do you think of yourself as intersexed?
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2020, 12:06:32 pm »
Here is a summary of gender ambiguity traits related to DES by the CDC

Other Genital Abnormalities
Whether DES increases the risk for other genital abnormalities in men remains unclear. A few studies have reported that DES Sons experience a greater likelihood of being born with undescended testicles (cryptorchidism), a misplaced opening of the penis (hypospadias), or a smaller than normal penis (microphallus). These studies estimated that 15%-32% of DES Sons experience one or more of these structural differences compared with 5%-8% of unexposed men (Gill, 1979; Wilcox, 1995). Other studies, however, have not identified an increased risk of structural differences (Leary, 1984; Vessey, 1983). Because findings have been inconsistent, researchers cannot say with certainty that DES causes these types of genital abnormalities in DES-exposed men.

DES was essentially a high dose of estrogen that kept the pregnant mother from having a miscarriage in the first few months of pregnancy.

A related problem has been linked to women who kept taking estrogen based birth control pills because they didn't know they were pregnant.  This is much more rare, but has resulted in less severe forms of gender ambiguity.

We also know, due to the genome project, that there are genetic strings that can cause moderate to total androgen insensitivity.

In each of these cases, the brain and the hypothalamus, which form in the first few weeks of pregnancy are smaller in transgender women and larger in transgender men.  Transgender women also have more white matter in their brains as well.  White matter seems to be related to the nurturing instinct.  The genitalia are more female in the earliest stages and gradually become more male if there is enough testosterone and the fetus is not insensitive.

Unfortunately, the genetic tests for these more complex genetic conditions is much more expensive and most insurance companies don't cover the tests.  They are willing to cover basic services such as HRT based on the evaluation of a therapist in combination with an evaluation by a psychologist since the complications of untreated gender dysphoria are much more expensive than the treatment.
Debbie Ballard - IT Architect
1st Transition 1988 to 1997 - detransitioned
2nd Transition 2010
HRT since 2011
Full Time since 2012

Offline josie76

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Re: Do you think of yourself as intersexed?
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2020, 06:50:50 am »
The effects of DES on genetic male babies pre natal brain development has not yet been definitely clarified.

At one time, an internet survey of genetic males who have documented history of their mothers taking DES during their pregnancy claimed about 30 to 40% of these males had gender issues of some sort. More recent larger studies can not confirm this.

We do know about the relationship between DES and certain cancers and some birth defects. The exact effects of DES on a developing genetic male brain is still open to research. The big problem is that the records of mothers who took DES are not available. DES was banned about 50 years ago in the US, so this cannot explain the gender issues for those of us under 50 years of age.

DES was "unlabeled" for miscarriage prevention in 1971 by issue of an FDA memo. It was not removed from general FDA approval until 2000.
Somewhere I have the sources but from memory I can tell you that DES has a much stronger affinity for cell androgen receptors than even dihydrotestosterone. While DES latches to the receptors it will not activate the zinc finger fold that is required for the receptor to activate nuclear RNA. This makes DES a very potent androgen blocker. DES then also is at a much lesser affinity an activator of some of the estrogen receptors.

Studies in the last 5 years have shown a clear correlation of the IFOF region of the brain as being one of the areas responsible for gender identity or sex specific instinctual drives. Large sample MRI studies identified this area in particular as being related to gender based on the neural network pattern and neuron density. When measurable traits were mapped it had a clear majority of AMAB at one end of the spectrum and AFAB at the other end. There are some overlapping areas in the measurable traits as there are with all biological traits. When compared to patient reported gender identity it was clearly noted that those with strong identity opposed to their birth sex had traits clearly in the opposite birth sex group. Others of nonbinary or fluid identities seemed to fall within the middle overlapped area.
Other studies confirmed that from pre-adolescent through post puberty and into adulthood this particular section remains fixed in neural traits. Also that birth sex opposed hormone replacement did not alter this region.
Another study of prenatal MRIs identified that proto patterns of these later neural networks are formed during the brain's rapid growth period mostly in the second trimester. This region is permanently prenatally patterned by reaction to the amount of hormones present in the fetus.

What has also been found is that while the levels of fetal testosterone or AR activation will be the trigger for masculinization, estrogen is also required for the patterns to actually be changed. Lack of testosterone, AR gene mutation, or concentration of androgen blocking chemicals will prevent the neural pattern from being shifted to the base of male typical patterns. Thus this region will remain in a default state typical to females.
We still don't know how many regions of the brain are related to gender identity. We have observed many small differences between the average female and male brain structures. While everyone has essentially the same number of neurons in their brains, men's tend to be more spread out. Seemingly just to match the larger average cranial space where women's tend to simply be more compact. Women tend to have more left/right and forward/rearward interconnects in both the bidirectional and unidirectional signaling paths.
There is also some studies matching some regions with the difference in attraction to one or the other or both average sexual phenotypes.

This is my summation of about 8-10 more recent studies I read up on for a paper about a year ago.

I find all of the complexities and variables really interesting.
04/26/2018 bi-lateral orchiectomy
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A lifetime of depression and repressed emotions is nothing more than existence.
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Offline josie76

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Re: Do you think of yourself as intersexed?
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2020, 07:00:07 am »
DES was essentially a high dose of estrogen that kept the pregnant mother from having a miscarriage in the first few months of pregnancy.

When you look at the way it was used it is clear that the manufactures and doctors were made aware of the genital ambiguity issues early on. In all I have read it was standard practice to not give the mother DES until after the weeks of formation of the genitals. It was after this time when the mother was then given the drug because they assumed that once the genitals were formed there was no other risk of the drug causing problems.

I have also read that according to the data, in all the decades it was used, it never showed any change in actual miscarriage rate. Doctors kept using it because manufacturers said it would work. The doctors simply had no source of tracked information to show that it did nothing positive at all.

Of course today all of the varied companies that manufactured the drug have "lost" their records as the drug was tied to multiple cancers and birth defects.
04/26/2018 bi-lateral orchiectomy
09/11/2019 PPV at IU Health (DaVinci robot laparoscopic Davydov with modified Chonburi Flap) w/ Dr. Gallagher, Dr. Koch, Dr. Roth assisting urology
03/02/2020 revision labiaplasty at IU Health w/ Dr. Gallagher

A lifetime of depression and repressed emotions is nothing more than existence.
I for one want to live now, not just exist!

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