Author Topic: Doctors may soon be legally able to refuse to treat trans people  (Read 3220 times)

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Offline John406

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Re: Doctors may soon be legally able to refuse to treat trans people
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2019, 08:18:53 am »
Doctors May Soon Be Legally Able to Refuse to Treat Trans People

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qv7zax/doctors-may-soon-be-legally-able-to-refuse-to-treat-trans-people?utm_source=vicefbus&fbclid=IwAR2tqBTsx6XQLCg4eZ2tCd5pDUfDw54l-Gh2sP-peGqOmYpqy7_mCURcc5Q

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by Diana Tourjée
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May 24 2019, 1:54pm

Technically, anybody can refuse to do anything. Not just legally, but as a specific, inalienable human right. Doesn't matter where you are or what the law of the land may be; if you don't want to do something, you don't have to. Nobody can force you to do anything. There's always consequences for everything though; good consequences and bad consequences. At the end of the day though, you have the right to do whatever the hell you want, as does everybody else.

Transgender people, "illegals", both referred to in terms designed to make us seem subhuman, lesser, so that it's okay to treat as like <poo>.

Lmao, I wouldn't compare transgender individuals to illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants are literally breaking the law and are thus criminals. A transgender individual isn't breaking any laws, and thus isn't a criminal. I'm not saying it's okay to treat criminals or anyone else like <poo> they deserve justice as everyone does, but putting illegal immigrants into the same category as a transgender person is ridiculous. It's not illegal to be trans. It is illegal to infiltrate a foreign country without going through the proper immigration procedures. Every nation has a right to defend it's borders and know who is coming into their country, just like YOU have a right to have a fence around your property to keep out wild animals and let the community know where your land ends and begins so that they know to stay the hell off of it unless they have permission or are invited onto your land. How would you feel if strangers just waltzed into your home and used your hard-earned resources like they owned the place? My guess is that you would treat them like <poo> lmao. Which would be perfectly understandable in my opinion; home intruders are a real buzz kill lol.


Offline AnneK

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Re: Doctors may soon be legally able to refuse to treat trans people
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2019, 11:52:41 am »
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Technically, anybody can refuse to do anything. Not just legally, but as a specific, inalienable human right.

Perhaps you should do a bit of research into the bigotry that occurred in the U.S. and how the government passed laws to ban it.  Prior to that, people could refuse to serve someone because of their skin colour.  Would you be saying the same thing, if someone with a different skin colour, was told to ride at the back of the bus?  That is what used to happen in much of the U.S., until the '60s.

Here's just a few things you can look into:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rock_Central_High_School
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensboro_sit-ins

How is bigotry due to skin colour any different than what we experience?
I'm a 66 year old male who has been thinking about SRS for many years.  I also was a  full cross dresser for a few years.  I wear a bra, pantyhose and nail polish daily because it just feels right.

Started HRT April 17, 2019.

Offline John406

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Re: Doctors may soon be legally able to refuse to treat trans people
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2019, 07:45:51 pm »
Perhaps you should do a bit of research into the bigotry that occurred in the U.S. and how the government passed laws to ban it.  Prior to that, people could refuse to serve someone because of their skin colour.  Would you be saying the same thing, if someone with a different skin colour, was told to ride at the back of the bus?  That is what used to happen in much of the U.S., until the '60s.

Here's just a few things you can look into:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rock_Central_High_School
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensboro_sit-ins

How is bigotry due to skin colour any different than what we experience?

People have the right to be bigoted. Like I said though, there will always be consequences. With every right comes a responsibility. You have the right to hate whoever you want, but the responsibility to not infringe on their rights as well. Ignore that responsibility, and you'll face negative consequences. In the example you gave, the negative consequence to being bigoted was REVOLUTION lmao.

PS: I would simply exercise my right to refuse to ride the bus, and probably rally everyone else of color to stop riding the buses as well, costing the bus companies a lot of money, disrupting the order of their business, which would force them to either go under, or stop being a bigot and respect human rights lol.

Offline Stevi

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Re: Doctors may soon be legally able to refuse to treat trans people
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2019, 09:38:47 pm »
The rules that were vacated by the NY District Court (and today by a Washington District Court in a separate action) is not the same set of rules as the ones that are the initial subject of this thread.  The ones related to this thread, among other things, stripped sexual orientation and gender identity language out of the Affordable Care Act.  That situation is between the end of comment period and the finalizing of the new rules.  I am sure that will be challenged the moment the rules are put in place.

The cases just decided are about expanding "Conscience Protection" for anyone even remotely associated with our health care (ambulance driver, receptionist, elevator operator, orderly) so they cannot be discriminated against for their refusal to care for someone if they believe their conscience would be violated.  The judge agreed with the plaintiffs (our side) on almost every claim.  At two points in the ruling the judge effectively called the attorney for the HHS (Health and Human Services) a liar.  On some points in oral arguments the attorney for the HHS tried to mitigate the possible repercussions of the rules by saying the government would not actually do what the rules appear to say.

Stevi

Offline Stevie

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Re: Doctors may soon be legally able to refuse to treat trans people
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2019, 01:28:36 pm »
A lot of this is going to depend on the state you live in and the policys of the states medical board there.

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Offline Linde

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Re: Doctors may soon be legally able to refuse to treat trans people
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2019, 02:41:14 pm »
I would not feel well taken care of, if a medical professional would be forced to treat a condition I have that is caused, in their eyes, by immorality or whatever hard to understand reason!
Prior to this law we never would have known, who such a person is, because they would have been forced to treat us!
This law provides us with some kind of quality control on medical professionals who don't reject to treat us.


Offline Linde

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Re: Doctors may soon be legally able to refuse to treat trans people
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2019, 03:20:16 pm »

Personally I don't think there is any place for bigotry of any kind within the medical field.
You say it lady!
 But don't forget, medical professionals are also humans, with all the weaknesses of humans!


Offline Stevi

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Re: Doctors may soon be legally able to refuse to treat trans people
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2019, 05:23:51 pm »
Hypothetical---

You are wheeled into the emergency room of a hospital with life threatening injuries.  The attending physician cuts away your clothing to reveal that you are non-op transgender.  Everyone around you steps back because your choices in life do not fit into their personal opinion of how the world should look.

[Rant ON

Heck, according to the rule, the ambulance driver can refuse to transport you if his conscience is offended by doing so.  You can't even be assured that you will get to the hospital in time! That is how egregious the "conscientious protection" was that the rule was carving out.

The ACA proposed rule changes are no better.  They remove, among other things, the explicit gender identity language from the HHS rules that were put in place to prevent discrimination by health care providers including insurance providers.  Do you want to loose what gender affirming health benefits you currently have with your health plan?  Sometimes we do not have a choice of who is available to help us.  What if circumstances leave us no choice?

Stevi

Offline Linde

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Re: Doctors may soon be legally able to refuse to treat trans people
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2019, 05:56:28 pm »
I agree with you Stevi, and we have to hope or a real ig blue wave to be able to wash all that stuff away again!

I do what I can, I am an active member of the local PFLAG Chapter (https://pflag.org/chapter/pflag-naples).  If we all would get active in some of the available LGBTQ+ organisations, we would be strong voices that need to be heard!


Offline Gertrude

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Re: Doctors may soon be legally able to refuse to treat trans people
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2019, 08:23:40 am »
There's a difference between law/regulations and free will. John406 is speaking from an absolute. Laws aren't absolute. If they were, we wouldn't have jails and courts. Laws usually put consequences on actions that violate a law and the law is only as effective as to how well it is enforced. All that said, I can't see how someone smart enough to become a doctor would refuse to treat someone based on cultural beliefs. Outside of law, policies and training need to be explicit in this area as to what is expected in the practice of being a doctor, particularly in a hospital/emergency situation. I'd also like to see these doctors put their money where their mouth is. If they refuse to treat LGBT people they should have a disclaimer on the walls of their offices and a tag on their clothing stating such.

Offline AnneK

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Re: Doctors may soon be legally able to refuse to treat trans people
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2019, 10:53:30 am »
Quote
All that said, I can't see how someone smart enough to become a doctor would refuse to treat someone based on cultural beliefs.

Actually, it does happen.  A more visible example would be doctors that refuse to perform abortions.  In Ontario, where I live, the law requires that doctors that refuse to do something on religious or moral grounds to find a doctor who will do it.

Fortunately, my own doctor doesn't seem to have any issues at all.  She had no problem referring me for hormones.  In fact, when I told her I was experiencing breast growth, she said she was glad I'm getting where I want to be.
I'm a 66 year old male who has been thinking about SRS for many years.  I also was a  full cross dresser for a few years.  I wear a bra, pantyhose and nail polish daily because it just feels right.

Started HRT April 17, 2019.

Offline Lucy5

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Re: Doctors may soon be legally able to refuse to treat trans people
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2019, 01:25:15 pm »
Technically, anybody can refuse to do anything. Not just legally, but as a specific, inalienable human right. Doesn't matter where you are or what the law of the land may be; if you don't want to do something, you don't have to. Nobody can force you to do anything. There's always consequences for everything though; good consequences and bad consequences. At the end of the day though, you have the right to do whatever the hell you want, as does everybody else.

Lmao, I wouldn't compare transgender individuals to illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants are literally breaking the law and are thus criminals. A transgender individual isn't breaking any laws, and thus isn't a criminal. I'm not saying it's okay to treat criminals or anyone else like <poo> they deserve justice as everyone does, but putting illegal immigrants into the same category as a transgender person is ridiculous. It's not illegal to be trans. It is illegal to infiltrate a foreign country without going through the proper immigration procedures. Every nation has a right to defend it's borders and know who is coming into their country, just like YOU have a right to have a fence around your property to keep out wild animals and let the community know where your land ends and begins so that they know to stay the hell off of it unless they have permission or are invited onto your land. How would you feel if strangers just waltzed into your home and used your hard-earned resources like they owned the place? My guess is that you would treat them like <poo> lmao. Which would be perfectly understandable in my opinion; home intruders are a real buzz kill lol.

You show a significant lack of understanding that laws like this and the transgender military ban are major steps towards making it illegal to be trans, much as many immigration paths that used be legal ans common are now illegal  in order to create this false crisis of "illegal immigration." You speak of consequences for choices, but this law is designed to remove any chance of consequences for a Dr. or other member of the medical community allowing a trans person to die because they think it should be illegal to be trans. It wasn't that long ago that it was illegal to be trans, or gay in many states, and honestly there is not much difference between it being illegal to be something and it being legal to discriminate against being something to the point that those people can no longer participate in society - which is what this law does.

Offline JanePlain

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Re: Doctors may soon be legally able to refuse to treat trans people
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2019, 02:02:25 pm »
There are sites "rate your doctor" that I think would be a good way to state your objections to doctors who won't treat people for whatever reason.  Or just provide horrible care. I don't think a doctor should be forced to perform abortions or euthenasia because It believe it violates the do no harm oath.  If someone must do these sorts of things I would rather it wasn't a doctor. I wish more energy was spent on finding ways to not feel a need to do such things.

I've had some time to look at some youtube videos and hear the dumb stuff that people come up with to let them yell and pontificate about things they have no first hand experience with.  How many Gay bashers have a relative thats gay?  Or maybe its better expressed the other way around.  It would be a good thing to address the reason people seek medical help for being transexual. I think its being blown off as some kind of fetish or mental health issue by people without any hint of a clue what is really going on. 

And what IS the deal where someone does a serious study of people who identify as transgender and before HRT have a brain scan that supports their claim? If there is a dispute about the study why can't it be given some peer review and redone to see if its correct or not and move forward?  Or is there no way to accept it because they just don't want to?

I'm still impressed with the comments I've heard from a doctor who said he started his own clinic that takes transexual patients and he literally can't see them fast enough.  That anyone going into this field won't have to worry about running out of patients.  I now understand how it takes 6 weeks to get into the U to see a doctors who take care of transexual people.

Offline Anastasia

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Re: Doctors may soon be legally able to refuse to treat trans people
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2020, 10:37:39 pm »
While I support the idea that a doctor has the right to feel like he disapproves of trans people, this change could have frightening consequences in the er. While my primary care physician is aware of my trans issues, she has never mentioned if she is ok with this or not. I will directly ask her her how she feels about this. I will be sad if she is against it as she is one of the few doctors ( actually nurse practitioner) that I have been comfortable with.

Offline Rachel Montgomery

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Re: Doctors may soon be legally able to refuse to treat trans people
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2020, 11:20:42 am »
I have been told by more than one transwoman that she can't find a doctor within 50 miles of home to treat her for anything.  One of these women has cancer.  She claims that she can't get treatment for cancer BECAUSE the doctors all refuse to treat a transwoman.  The other says she couldn't get treatment for the flu because she was transgender. 

I don't know if they are telling me the truth or not, but one of them supposedly lives in Ohio and another supposedly lives in Indiana. 

Offline SadieBlake

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Re: Doctors may soon be legally able to refuse to treat trans people
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2020, 05:31:09 am »
They're telling the truth.
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Offline SadieBlake

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Re: Doctors may soon be legally able to refuse to treat trans people
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2020, 05:35:34 am »
Hypothetical---

You are wheeled into the emergency room of a hospital with life threatening injuries.  The attending physician cuts away your clothing to reveal that you are non-op transgender.  Everyone around you steps back because your choices in life do not fit into their personal opinion of how the world should look.

Sadly your hypothetical happened in New Hampshire about 20 years ago. A trans woman died by the side of the road after a car crash when the EMTs found she had a penis and chose not to treat her. There were no consequences.
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Offline Rachel Montgomery

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Re: Doctors may soon be legally able to refuse to treat trans people
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2020, 12:14:40 pm »
They're telling the truth.

Well, it is both disappointing and frightening to think that they would be so cold, so unprofessional, so inhumane as to refuse treatment on such a basis.

If a gynecologist in private practice doesn't treat transwomen because he doesn't have the expertise to deal with the health issues, perhaps that is understandable.  But, in an emergency situation, any doctor present should do the best they can.  And, for anything other than post surgical issues (all of the things that all human beings get sick with), all doctors should see and treat us to the best of their ability, or refer us to the best doctor in the area who does.

I mean, this seems like the least they could do.

Offline JanePlain

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Re: Doctors may soon be legally able to refuse to treat trans people
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2020, 04:07:57 pm »
I agree with what Stevi said. To expand on it a bit:

I guess it will be the Hypocrite Oath instead of the Hippocratic Oath.

If we are talking about forcing doctors to do abortions or "terminate" sick patients my vote is that Doctors shouldn't take the oath to first do no harm and then do these things.  If its a doctor that doesn't want to learn how to do SRS?  Well I wouldn't want any doctor work on me that wasn't trained and good at what they do so I guess I would agree with that.

However... If we are talking about a doctor in the ER that doesn't treat a sick patient because they are different?  That doctor should turn in their credentials and get into a different line of work.

Offline JanePlain

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Re: Doctors may soon be legally able to refuse to treat trans people
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2020, 04:09:43 pm »
I have been told by more than one transwoman that she can't find a doctor within 50 miles of home to treat her for anything.  One of these women has cancer.  She claims that she can't get treatment for cancer BECAUSE the doctors all refuse to treat a transwoman.  The other says she couldn't get treatment for the flu because she was transgender. 

I don't know if they are telling me the truth or not, but one of them supposedly lives in Ohio and another supposedly lives in Indiana.

THAT would drive me insane.  What doctor would refuse to treat someone for cancer because they are different?  Has it really gotten this bad???

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