Author Topic: trans and christian? what the bible say?  (Read 2561 times)

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Offline nvikki

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trans and christian? what the bible say?
« on: August 06, 2019, 06:27:23 am »
Hi all,

I am a transgender woman, and really try to be Christian but so difficult when all my family are so much homophobic. They love me, but the same time they make me always so stressed out and depressed because they believe being transgender is just wrong. Both my mom and dad are pastors. I am divorced with two kids. I just love them too much so I don't want to cut all communications with my ex and with them, but I don't know what to tell them, and they would not listen to me anyways...and feel that my transition is so beautiful, and it would be if they would accept me. But now my life is totally in ruins and always stressed out because of relationship breakdown, psychological abuse and a huge guilt that this is all I did, and I do it to myself because I choose to transition and not choosing God. I believe it is possible to be trans and Christian, I really try to be. But with such guilt putting, I don't know how possible...
They tell me that :
- God created me, and I should not create myself
- God created the man and woman and there is no other gender.
- that I am a <transgender person> whore, and it is Sodom who I am (I am not a sex worker)
- it is immoral to be a transgender
- that I should return to be a man and go back to my ex (I won't be a man again)
- I am serving the devil and don't listen

anyways, I don't even know how to deal with them and how to deal with this all at all...and I can't prove myself and I can't defend myself because my life is not pretty now, and they are better talkers and they always win with words.
and...what really the Bible say?
 

Offline Alice V

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Re: trans and christian? what the bible say?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2019, 06:39:48 am »
I'm not a specialist, but as far as I know it depends on your pastor. The thing is, Bible was written when people technically couldn't perform transition, so it can't say anything about that particular issue.
Basically, religion teach us to be good and don't do evil stuff and nothing more.
The emperor must strike without hesitations. To entertain doubts is to dance with death.(c)Izaro

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Offline Faith

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Re: trans and christian? what the bible say?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2019, 07:44:18 am »
I should keep quiet, yet I won't.

The Bible wasn't written by God. Even if you say that God guided and influenced the writing, it was written by men (as in male).
A large portion (I hate to speculate %) touts love, forgiveness, non-judgement. Only a small portion condemns.
MEN translated from the original with all their bias.

My research is from a while back, I can paraphrase three things that stood out to me:
1) Ritually Unclean. a translation from the original text.
- One section says that a man having 'relations' with a woman during her monthly made him ritually unclean and he must abstain and cleanse for a month. My surmise is due to cleanliness.
- another section, using the same original wording, dealt with men and anal sex. 'ritually unclean .. except! it was translated as an abomination.
2) Judgment called down by God (as the story goes) on people celebrating and worshiping. It was basically an orgy men, women, mixed couples, etc. Judgement was called down. The current interpretation says that the abominable sexual acts is why judgement was called down. The original text states that the reason was because they were worshiping a false god. It had nothing to do with the sexual acts.
3) effeminate man shall not gain the kingdom of heaven.
- Current translations & interpretations states that effeminate man refers to gay men
- the original translation meant a soft self-important gluttonous man in power. One that used his position to take advantage of the innocents under his position.

severe paraphrasing in there. My point is, you cannot trust the translations and interpretations that are currently touted.  If you read the bible and get hate and judgement out of it you are reading it wrong. God and the bible is about love.
Love God
Love yourself
Love others.

The brain is wrong and the body is right views.
God is spirit. God is both man and woman and neither.
We all contain the spirit of God
Body goes to dust, spirit goes to heaven
My spirit is just fine, thank you very much.

I'll not continue a discourse, I just wanted to share some of my views. If you truly dig, you will find many cases of translations and interpretations that are skewed.

Offline Melinda@heart

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Re: trans and christian? what the bible say?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2019, 08:11:25 am »
As a transwoman with deeply rooted Christian beliefs I can only share what my personal thoughts on the matter. I was always taught that YOUR walk with God is what matters most.

@Faith had it right. The Bible was written by men. The Bible has been open to interpretation since time immemorial. Do you believe it literally? Word for word? If so, then the Earth is the center of the universe. The entire universe revolves around the Earth. This would be according to the book of kings. God stopped the Sun during one of the israelite kings battle. If he stopped the sun, that would mean it was revolving around the Earth and not he Earth around it. Francis Jennings Dake  explains this in the Dakes bible. He had some interesting thoughts, to say the least.

For me, it all comes down to a simple verse in the New Testament, I believe it's in Hebrews, but I could be wrong. It is "We have been redeemed from the curse of the law." The "Law" being all those rules that men made up outside of the Ten commandments. Now, last time I checked there are no commandments against being transgender. Perhaps, in his infinite wisdom he saw us and loved us enough to make sure we would not be excluded from his mercy and grace.

Religion is a very personal thing for many. What you have to do is pray, hear from God and be obedient. It doesn't matter what others think or believe. If Jesus has listened to the religious leaders of his day, he would have remained silent and we would not have his message 2000 years later.

Mindy

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Offline Northern Star Girl

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Re: trans and christian? what the bible say?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2019, 08:31:22 am »
Hi all,

I am a transgender woman, and really try to be Christian but so difficult when all my family are so much homophobic. They love me, but the same time they make me always so stressed out and depressed because they believe being transgender is just wrong. Both my mom and dad are pastors. I am divorced with two kids. I just love them too much so I don't want to cut all communications with my ex and with them, but I don't know what to tell them, and they would not listen to me anyways...and feel that my transition is so beautiful, and it would be if they would accept me. But now my life is totally in ruins and always stressed out because of relationship breakdown, psychological abuse and a huge guilt that this is all I did, and I do it to myself because I choose to transition and not choosing God. I believe it is possible to be trans and Christian, I really try to be. But with such guilt putting, I don't know how possible...
They tell me that :
- God created me, and I should not create myself
- God created the man and woman and there is no other gender.
- that I am a <transgender person> whore, and it is Sodom who I am (I am not a sex worker)
- it is immoral to be a transgender
- that I should return to be a man and go back to my ex (I won't be a man again)
- I am serving the devil and don't listen

anyways, I don't even know how to deal with them and how to deal with this all at all...and I can't prove myself and I can't defend myself because my life is not pretty now, and they are better talkers and they always win with words.
and...what really the Bible say?

@nvikki
Dear nvikki:
    No doubt that you have seen other brand new members here get Official Welcome messages when they make their first posting.... now it is your turn!!!

    Please know that I am not ignoring or trying to sidetrack your post... , but FIRST THINGS FIRST, you need to be Officially Welcomed and given important rules and information about the Susan's Place Forums.
    I am happy to see that you have signed up as a member of Susan's Place and have submitted your first posting. 

    As you post here on the forums you will be able to exchange thoughts and comments with others that are experiencing many of the same things that you wrote about.
 
    This is the right place for you to be to find out what others may have to say that may have been in your circumstances and with your questions and concerns.
    There are a lot of members here that will be able to identify with your situation as you continue to feel free to share it.
 
    I also want to warmly WELCOME you to Susan's Place
You will find this a safe and friendly place to share with others and to read about others similar trials, tribulations, and successes.

    As you are certainly aware you can share with others and involve yourself with some give and take with other like-minded members.  When frustrated or if you have successes you can share it here if you wish and receive support from others and offer support to others. ....
     ***There is a very good chance that you might find that you will make some new like-minded friends here. 

    Please come in and continue to be involved at your own pace.   Other members will be along shortly to give you their thoughts about your questions and concerns that you mentioned in your very first posting.
   
    There is information and important LINKS that I have included below.   You will find information about the site that will help you navigate around and best utilize the features here.   
Please look closely at the LINKS in RED, answers are there to many questions that new members ask.

Again, Welcome to Susan's Place.
Danielle


Here are some links to the site rules and stuff that all new members should be familiar with:
 
Things that you should read
***SEE MY LINKS BELOW
The Ramblings of a Northern*Star Girl
A New Chapter: ALASKAN DANIELLE's Chronicles
I am the HUNTED PREY: Danielle’s Chronicles
Things change re: ALASKAN DANIELLE
Positive Mindset... put away negativity

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Offline Northern Star Girl

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Re: trans and christian? what the bible say?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2019, 08:31:35 am »
@nvikki
OH, and another thing nvikki:
As you might have noticed that other new members have been encouraged to tell us more about themselves, I would also encourage you to INTRODUCE yourself.

Please plan to write a post and briefly introduce yourself in the Introductions Forum so that other members will be aware of your arrival... therefore you will be able to share your thoughts with more members here.
     
Thank you again for joining Susan's Place and being involved in the Forums here.
Best wishes to you,
Danielle

NOTE: Now after all of this Greeting Stuff I will  let everyone have this thread back so that the exchange of conversation can continue.
Other members here will certainly be along to give you their comments and replies
***SEE MY LINKS BELOW
The Ramblings of a Northern*Star Girl
A New Chapter: ALASKAN DANIELLE's Chronicles
I am the HUNTED PREY: Danielle’s Chronicles
Things change re: ALASKAN DANIELLE
Positive Mindset... put away negativity

Started HRT:   March 2015
Went Full-Time    December 2016
Quit my male-mode job and relocated to a very small town in Alaska in January 2017
I'm a blonde, blue eyed woman, Age 40

Offline kaygee

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Re: trans and christian? what the bible say?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2019, 08:49:55 am »
Every Christian filters Bible passages through their own prejudices.



The Hebrew Bible, when read in its original language, offers a highly elastic view of gender. And I do mean highly elastic: In Genesis 3:12, Eve is referred to as “he.” In Genesis 9:21, after the flood, Noah repairs to “her” tent. Genesis 24:16 refers to Rebecca as a “young man.” And Genesis 1:27 refers to Adam as “them.”

In Esther 2:7, Mordecai is pictured as nursing his niece Esther. In a similar way, in Isaiah 49:23, the future kings of Israel are prophesied to be “nursing kings.”



See if your fundamentalist family wants to follow these dicta:

If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. 29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters."(Leviticus 26:27-30)


"Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother." (Mark 12:19)


"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)


and my fave:
"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord."
(Deuteronomy 23:1)

No worries; I left the Christian church decades ago. (Although I am still very much a Quaker.)




And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Much more is in the Holy Bible.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 10:30:44 am by Jessica »
Give me ambiguity... or give me something else.

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Offline randim

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Re: trans and christian? what the bible say?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2019, 09:04:00 am »
This may be apropos of nothing, but I sometimes have fantasy conversations in my head with some of my evangelical relatives following a transition, and this is something like what I say:

"I've been lost for 50 years and now I'm found.  I finally walk in the light."

It's just fantasy, but it feels like it would be a really true thing to say. Trust your God-given heart and mind.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 10:57:14 am by randim »

Offline KathyLauren

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Re: trans and christian? what the bible say?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2019, 09:58:50 am »
Hi, nvikki, and welcome.

Science tells us that we are born transgender.  It is not something we choose.  In fact, it is the way that God created us.  And He doesn't make mistakes.

For whatever reason, God wanted us to be transgender.  As in the parable of the Talents, when He gives us a gift, He does not want us to bury it and hide it.  He wants us to make something of it.

I don't know how you deal with family who use religion to do the devil's work.  They are family, but what they do is harmful.  Some people find that distance helps, either physical or emotional.
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Offline Melinda@heart

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Re: trans and christian? what the bible say?
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2019, 10:53:46 am »
Hi, nvikki, and welcome.

Science tells us that we are born transgender.  It is not something we choose.  In fact, it is the way that God created us.  And He doesn't make mistakes.

For whatever reason, God wanted us to be transgender.  As in the parable of the Talents, when He gives us a gift, He does not want us to bury it and hide it.  He wants us to make something of it.

I don't know how you deal with family who use religion to do the devil's work.  They are family, but what they do is harmful.  Some people find that distance helps, either physical or emotional.
KathyLauren,

I love your use of that parable. I actually never thought of it that way, but you are spot on. It is a gift. Societal views kept me hidden for most of my life. Fear of rejection and persecution made me feel like what I am was a freak. Religious institutions made me feel like i was demon possessed. But I'm not. I'm exactly what God made me. Mindy.

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Re: trans and christian? what the bible say?
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2019, 12:18:46 pm »
For whatever reason, God wanted us to be transgender.  As in the parable of the Talents, when He gives us a gift, He does not want us to bury it and hide it.  He wants us to make something of it.

Kathy Lauren, Thank you for posting that thought! That is really lovely and I had never thought of it exactly that way before but it makes perfect sense.

~ Chloe

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Re: trans and christian? what the bible say?
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2019, 12:36:20 pm »
anyways, I don't even know how to deal with them and how to deal with this all at all...and I can't prove myself and I can't defend myself because my life is not pretty now, and they are better talkers and they always win with words.
and...what really the Bible say?

Hi nvikki, and welcome!

It's very difficult having to deal with these religious issues as well as everything else to do with gender identity and transition, so my heart really feels for you.

Your words quoted above particularly touched me. One thing I've learned about religion is that everyone reads the Bible their own way and that no matter how smart or good with words one person is, there will always be someone else who is even smarter and better with words, who draws a different conclusion. At the end of the day you just have to decide what makes sense to you, what sits well with you and your relationship with God, however you perceive Him/Her/Them to be.

I have my own way of reading and understanding the Bible and making my peace with it, and what works for me, works for me, but needn't necessarily work for anyone else. No matter how much time I spend thinking and pondering this verse or that verse, or arguing with people in real life or online, I never find anything any better than "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength and love your neighbor as yourself."

Thinking of you and praying for peace and joy for you,

~ Chloe

Offline jules968

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Re: trans and christian? what the bible say?
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2019, 12:45:50 pm »
Nvikki- a while back I read a article regarding how the Bible has been changed over time and actually 1946 was the first  mention of homosexuality.  The Bible has been changed where as it used to say man shall not lie with a child to man shall not lie with another man.  This was started by religious bigots here in the USA.    A researcher has read many old and varied copies of the Bible all the way back to the original  Gutenberg version.   And all of them talked about not lying with a child.

So please look it up and share with your wayward family.   


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Re: trans and christian? what the bible say?
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2019, 01:24:50 pm »
Devyl, people, we spell it Devyl.  :laugh: >:-)

Welcome to Susan's Place, nvikki. I'm weird. You'll get used to me.  :laugh:

Hugs, Devlyn
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Offline MaryT

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Re: trans and christian? what the bible say?
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2019, 02:57:44 pm »

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 in the King James Version, it says

 “... Be not deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, ... shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

It is true that malakoi, or soft, was interpreted as effeminate but I suspect that it is the correct interpretation, as it was used together with arsenokoitai, which seems to mean sodomite no matter how new age theologians wrestle with it.

Other of St Paul's writings were used to justify slavery and the inferior position of women.  Having said that, we have to remember that as Saul, St Paul, by his own admission, set out to destroy Christianity.  Maybe he succeeded.  (No offence intended to Christians, as I regard myself as one.)



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Re: trans and christian? what the bible say?
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2019, 05:31:09 pm »
Food for thought:

The King James version of the Bible came about during a period in time when English people were paranoid that just about every other person was a sorceress or witch. Finger pointing got thousands of people killed, roughly 93% of them were women. Just about anyone that not fit into British societal norms was subject to witch trials. Some of that paranoia made its way into that version of the Bible (loved by Baptists) and so that sort of paranoia is still being preached.

When we do not fit into our own societal norms, we will have fingers pointed at us. While it has little to do with the teachings of Christ, it does have a lot to do with societal paranoia.

I learned more from history and from actually reading the Bible than I ever did in Bible study or from attending church.
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Offline Julie H

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Re: trans and christian? what the bible say?
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2019, 06:07:55 pm »
I am not religious but when I hear "God doesn't make mistakes" I can't help but to think "that's right and he made me trans".
People often try to use the validity of religion to cloak their bigotry. I don't recall Jesus saying anything against Trans people but funny enough I do remember him saying to not hurt children. How many people who use the bible to condemn us beat the fear of god into their children or how many protect priests who sexually abuse children.
Julie

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Re: trans and christian? what the bible say?
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2019, 10:58:19 am »
nvikki,

The Bible doesn't have a lot to say specifically about <transgender>.  I recently read a book on the subject by a Christian mother of a trans child.  Cheryl B. Evans wrote "What Does God Think? - Transgender People and the Bible"  I got the kindle version for free with my Kindle Unlimited membership.  Maybe a hard copy to pass to your family members might help.

I pray some of your family comes around,
Stevi

msmicah

Re: trans and christian? what the bible say?
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2019, 01:04:32 pm »
Hello Nvikki,

My name is Micah, I transitioned sixteen years ago and I am a Christian. I grew up in a very conservative Southern Baptist home and was in church almost every time the doors were opened. I came out when I was 26 to my family and experienced the same reactions that you are describing. What I want to tell you is that God loves you no matter what. Some of the people will come around to you eventually. In fact, my parents did and that was a miracle! You many never gain acceptance from some of the people in your life right now. There are people from my former church that will never accept me. Part of being a Christian is living a forgiving life, so I encourage you to not become angry or bitter over the hurt. People fear what they do not understand, and some people don't accept because of fear.

Second, I want to encourage you to hold onto your relationship with God. Hold fast, and don't ever let go. God will pull you through this. My transition was incredibly rocky. I was assaulted in a motel room and a man severed my genitalia. I went into a tailspin for a few years and was determined to kill myself. God spared me. One time I came home from the hospital (after a suicide attempt) and woke up from a bad dream and felt incredibly anxious. I went into the kitchen and opened my Bible, put my finger down on a verse. That verse read, "I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the Lord. The Lord has chastened me severely, but He has not given me over to death." Psalms 118: 17-18. Now, after I found that verse I was still suicidal at times but I hung onto that verse because I believed God has a bigger plan for me. I can say unequivocally that if it were not for my relationship with God, I would be dead today.

Sometimes I experience inner turmoil around being transgender and my relationship with God. I mostly experience this when confronted with a health problem relating to my transition. When I feel healthy, I have times that I forget I'm even transgender. I just live my life as Micah, I'm a wife, a nurse, and an artist of sorts. I enjoy a good relationship with God too. However, right now I'm in a period where my past decisions are weighing heavy on me. Because of my assault, my road to GRS has been quite difficult and non-traditional. I have experienced many complications and am currently facing another problem with more surgery. So, right now I tend to think of the past and wonder, did I do the right things? Am I right with God? What do I do? I get on my knees and pray, and pray some more. There is a verse that I like- Philiippians 2: 12-13- "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." I especially love the part "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". Every person that seeks God must do so humbly and one-on-one with God our Creator.

Sometimes it seems hard to trust in God when people who are "on the same team" are unkind, unaccepting, and judgmental. Remember though, our relationship is with God through Jesus Christ; not through the church or other Christians. Our salvation is not dependent on the acceptance of other people! In Biblical days, people with leprosy were segregated and not allowed into society. Now we know that leprosy is caused by bacteria and is treatable. No difference with us. Being transgender will have a medical explanation one day.

I am convinced that being transgender is not a sin, but it's what you choose to do with it that determines the sin. Are you going to transition and whore around with your new body? Are you going to allow yourself to be bogged down with anger against people who don't accept you? Are you going to lose your faith in God? Or, alternatively- are you going to go through transition and try to live a pure life? Will you be forgiving instead of angry? Will you trust God and use this trial to grow your faith instead of letting this trial destroy your faith? See what I mean? I will pray for you my sister!

Hugs,
Micah



Hi all,

I am a transgender woman, and really try to be Christian but so difficult when all my family are so much homophobic. They love me, but the same time they make me always so stressed out and depressed because they believe being transgender is just wrong. Both my mom and dad are pastors. I am divorced with two kids. I just love them too much so I don't want to cut all communications with my ex and with them, but I don't know what to tell them, and they would not listen to me anyways...and feel that my transition is so beautiful, and it would be if they would accept me. But now my life is totally in ruins and always stressed out because of relationship breakdown, psychological abuse and a huge guilt that this is all I did, and I do it to myself because I choose to transition and not choosing God. I believe it is possible to be trans and Christian, I really try to be. But with such guilt putting, I don't know how possible...
They tell me that :
- God created me, and I should not create myself
- God created the man and woman and there is no other gender.
- that I am a <transgender person> whore, and it is Sodom who I am (I am not a sex worker)
- it is immoral to be a transgender
- that I should return to be a man and go back to my ex (I won't be a man again)
- I am serving the devil and don't listen

anyways, I don't even know how to deal with them and how to deal with this all at all...and I can't prove myself and I can't defend myself because my life is not pretty now, and they are better talkers and they always win with words.
and...what really the Bible say?

Offline MistressStevie

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Re: trans and christian? what the bible say?
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2019, 10:48:59 pm »
Matthew 19:12 with some adjustment for technological changes may be germane to this discussion:

"For there are eunuchs who were born that way; others were made that way by men; and still others live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”


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