Author Topic: Do you find that you generally get less respect as a woman?  (Read 1693 times)

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Offline Ellie_Arroway

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Re: Do you find that you generally get less respect as a woman?
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2020, 12:56:28 pm »
I too had a similar experience as I also work as a financial and portfolio manager.  I have worked through a bank where the investment advisers were also women.  We discussed investment options as equals.  One day there was someone new there, a man.  He could clearly see that that I manged several investment accounts, but he talked to me as if I knew nothing and kept going over the fundamentals of building a portfolio!  All I could do was patiently listen, I could not steer him away from his apparent perception that I was just another "dumb" women that needed his advise.

I suspect I would have walked out and complained about that man.
Started seriously questioning: 24 Aug 2019
Referred to GIC: 23 Sep 2019
Full-time female presentation since: 21 Oct 2019, unbroken since 12 Dec 2019
Official name change by deed poll: 11 Nov 2019
HRT: "kind of" started 15 Jul 2020
Most of my story is in the Just another mtf tale thread!
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Offline sarahc

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Re: Do you find that you generally get less respect as a woman?
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2020, 02:39:40 pm »
I too had a similar experience as I also work as a financial and portfolio manager.  I have worked through a bank where the investment advisers were also women.  We discussed investment options as equals.  One day there was someone new there, a man.  He could clearly see that that I manged several investment accounts, but he talked to me as if I knew nothing and kept going over the fundamentals of building a portfolio!  All I could do was patiently listen, I could not steer him away from his apparent perception that I was just another "dumb" women that needed his advise.

Oh - it's nice to know that there is another finance nerd on Susan's!

Sarah
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Known that I am trans since...forever.
First therapy session / decided to transition / hair removal: October 2018
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Offline pretty pauline

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Re: Do you find that you generally get less respect as a woman?
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2020, 08:51:51 am »
Door to door salesmen, I absolutely hate them, had a caller yesterday ''can I speak to your husband'' I told him hubby is not available, but I can speak whatever business, ''your ok luv, best I speak to your other half, man to man'' very annoying I was. I purchased a new phone charger last week, the sales guy was over the top attentive, he takes it out of the box explaining how to plug into phone and into socket and told me to be very careful, spoke to me like I was a  little school girl unbelievable, very condescending, maybe it's something got to do with having blonde highlights, they seem to think we only worry about hair, makeup and nail polish and nothing between our ears then my printer episode a few years ago, myself and hubby purchased a new printed and chatting with the sales guy, he completely ignored me, I asked a basic question about ink cartridges and he just says ''I've explained it all to your husband dear, he'll know what to do, no need for you to worry'' he was so rude, and overheard him saying to his work colleague, gosh some women should stick to cooking.
But then on the upside, hubby does all the heavy chores and never lets me do anything complicated or carrying heavy stuff, if a train or bus is full I always offered a seat and get doors held open for me by gentlemen, so there are some small female privileges which are nice, rant over.
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Offline ChrissyRyan

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Re: Do you find that you generally get less respect as a woman?
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2020, 09:29:32 am »
I do not think I get much anymore.  I do avoid places where I think I may likely receive disrespect simply because of me being a mtf transsexual.  I do know we who are transgender have a long way to go for acceptance as compared to homosexuals or bisexuals.

I try to simply brush off any real or perceived disrespect.

Chrissy
Be a good example of good behavior.  Always be kinder than needed.  Be tender to others.  You are as beautiful as the thoughts you think and the words that your speak.   Always stay cheerful, be polite, kind, and understanding.  Knowledge and action shown without love is not impressive.  If you look for the good in people you will find it. Healthy relationships are so important to good living.  Serve others.

Good living, joy, unity, love, and happiness can come from following these practices: Never let selfishness or conceit motivate you.  Regard others as more important than yourself.  Do not limit attention to only your interests, but include the interests of others

It is not usually about how fast you transition, it is about how well you transition.  

Offline Ellie_Arroway

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Re: Do you find that you generally get less respect as a woman?
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2020, 10:49:11 am »
Door to door salesmen, I absolutely hate them, had a caller yesterday ''can I speak to your husband'' I told him hubby is not available, but I can speak whatever business, ''your ok luv, best I speak to your other half, man to man'' very annoying I was. I purchased a new phone charger last week, the sales guy was over the top attentive, he takes it out of the box explaining how to plug into phone and into socket and told me to be very careful, spoke to me like I was a  little school girl unbelievable, very condescending, maybe it's something got to do with having blonde highlights, they seem to think we only worry about hair, makeup and nail polish and nothing between our ears then my printer episode a few years ago, myself and hubby purchased a new printed and chatting with the sales guy, he completely ignored me, I asked a basic question about ink cartridges and he just says ''I've explained it all to your husband dear, he'll know what to do, no need for you to worry'' he was so rude, and overheard him saying to his work colleague, gosh some women should stick to cooking.
But then on the upside, hubby does all the heavy chores and never lets me do anything complicated or carrying heavy stuff, if a train or bus is full I always offered a seat and get doors held open for me by gentlemen, so there are some small female privileges which are nice, rant over.

I'd be quite gobby in those situations I believe! Not that I believe I am ever likely to face them; I'm not planning on having a husband any time soon!

I must admit I wouldn't "let" any husband "not let me" do anything complicated or carry heavy stuff. In both cases I am very capable.
Started seriously questioning: 24 Aug 2019
Referred to GIC: 23 Sep 2019
Full-time female presentation since: 21 Oct 2019, unbroken since 12 Dec 2019
Official name change by deed poll: 11 Nov 2019
HRT: "kind of" started 15 Jul 2020
Most of my story is in the Just another mtf tale thread!
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Offline DebbieB

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Re: Do you find that you generally get less respect as a woman?
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2020, 01:04:11 pm »
I was very lucky to have a woman coach and a transgender coach at work who helped me understand that there were different strategies required to succeed professionally as a woman.

First was making sure that a junior member of the team took notes rather than taking notes for the team myself.  If I needed to update a spreadsheet, then I did so as the moderator with my screen being displayed during the meeting as I updated the sheet based on the reports during the scrums or staff meetings.  If someone tried to push me to take notes, I would remind them that I would be a very EXPENSIVE secretary.  My hourly billing rate was more than they made in a day.

I had to learn that the start of almost any meeting would include a "pissing match" where the boys would try to establish their place in the pecking order by showing their expertise and especially in relationship to the specific project or topic of the meeting.  No matter how good my credentials were, I had to stay out of this contest until it was over.  Even if I didn't win as "top dog", every man I bested could become an enemy very easily. 

The female strategy is to wait until the pissing match is over then come in as "Mom can help you clean up the mess" - which trumps all the boys.  Ideally, the best time to speak up was when the boys got stuck or had a problem they couldn't solve.  The other effective strategy was to start asking questions you knew the answers to, but know they could also answer.  Those questions help build up the other male members of the team, and when they finally get "stuck", they are ready to let you offer some "suggestion".  I had to be powerful without being forceful.

I grew up white, male, middle class, and Presbyterian.  Essentially, I knew that I  had privilege, but that did not make me better than those who didn't.  At the same time, I couldn't hide the girl inside, so from a very young age I had experienced sexism at it's very worst, bullying, violent assaults, and threats in the classroom, because I was a "sissy" or too "girly".

On the flip side, I had lots of friends who were girls and those girls could do things I couldn't and I saw them as equals from the very beginning.  In many cases they were my superiors, like my friend Meg who taught me to roller skate, to write letters, to understand numbers, to write my name, and even to ride a bike.  She was only 2 years older than me, but she was like the big sister you want to have.

As I grew up, I continued to have many female friends, very few of which were girlfriends.  I may have been romantically or sexually attracted to many of them, but I understood that if they wanted me in that way, THEY would tell ME, and that I shouldn't assume anything.  Because of this attitude, my friendships with these women, including my own sister were very deep and close.  Several told me of their experiences with sexual predators including incest, pedophiles, and rapists, and they appreciated that I wasn't just trying to get into their skirt.

Because of my experiences with these girls, I realized that I could be aware of people's appearance, but that their appearance told me almost nothing about who they were.  When the school was integrated, I realized that the same was true for people of color and Latinos.  I saw the color of their skin, but I also wanted to see beyond that skin, what were their interests, their passions, their talents.  As a result, I became close friends with many people of color who became very successful in school and in life.  A few went on to military careers as officers or NCOs, others became writers for the film industry, another became a choreographer on broadway, and a few became engineers.

The same happened through college and my career.  I was so glad I had learned to look beyond the color of people's skin, because I often found myself working with brilliant coworkers who had more expertise than I did, others who were great managers.  I even learned that it was better to boost others who were more talented and ride their coattails than to try and get a promotion that would be better filled by a woman, a person of color, some combination.  Embracing diversity became a key factor of my career, and I was often part of extraordinary projects and produced amazing results because of it.

The same was true in my personal life.  In 12 step programs, I found that women and people of color became an important part of my growth and development as well as my recovery.  They kept me honest, and had my back when I was.
Debbie Ballard - IT Architect
1st Transition 1988 to 1997 - detransitioned
2nd Transition 2010
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Offline Maid Marion

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Re: Do you find that you generally get less respect as a woman?
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2020, 02:28:04 pm »
It took a surprisingly long time for me to realize that I was being misgendered at work by customers and treated as female.  Once I realized that I've used my seniority to make it a non-issue from my point of view.  I put my focus into patiently listening to my customers.  And relaying their needs to the appropriate staff member.

Marion

Offline ChrissyRyan

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Re: Do you find that you generally get less respect as a woman?
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2020, 03:27:02 pm »
It took a surprisingly long time for me to realize that I was being misgendered at work by customers and treated as female.  Once I realized that I've used my seniority to make it a non-issue from my point of view.  I put my focus into patiently listening to my customers.  And relaying their needs to the appropriate staff member.

Marion

Good for you. 
Good to hear.

Chrissy
Be a good example of good behavior.  Always be kinder than needed.  Be tender to others.  You are as beautiful as the thoughts you think and the words that your speak.   Always stay cheerful, be polite, kind, and understanding.  Knowledge and action shown without love is not impressive.  If you look for the good in people you will find it. Healthy relationships are so important to good living.  Serve others.

Good living, joy, unity, love, and happiness can come from following these practices: Never let selfishness or conceit motivate you.  Regard others as more important than yourself.  Do not limit attention to only your interests, but include the interests of others

It is not usually about how fast you transition, it is about how well you transition.  

Offline CosmicJoke

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Re: Do you find that you generally get less respect as a woman?
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2020, 03:57:17 pm »
Thank you for your replies everyone. This turned out to be a pretty hot thread. I think something that makes us unique is the fact we have some knowledge of what it's like from both sides. Cisgender people only really learn or know about what it's like to be one gender in their lifetime, so I think the fact we have some experience from both sides makes us very interesting individuals.

Offline Ellie_Arroway

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Re: Do you find that you generally get less respect as a woman?
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2020, 06:19:34 pm »
I was very lucky to have a woman coach and a transgender coach at work who helped me understand that there were different strategies required to succeed professionally as a woman.

First was making sure that a junior member of the team took notes rather than taking notes for the team myself.  If I needed to update a spreadsheet, then I did so as the moderator with my screen being displayed during the meeting as I updated the sheet based on the reports during the scrums or staff meetings.  If someone tried to push me to take notes, I would remind them that I would be a very EXPENSIVE secretary.  My hourly billing rate was more than they made in a day.

I had to learn that the start of almost any meeting would include a "pissing match" where the boys would try to establish their place in the pecking order by showing their expertise and especially in relationship to the specific project or topic of the meeting.  No matter how good my credentials were, I had to stay out of this contest until it was over.  Even if I didn't win as "top dog", every man I bested could become an enemy very easily. 

You say scrum? Are you a software engineer, scrum master, product owner or something along those lines?

It sounds like you were around some real hard cases. I knew a few people like that, but most were not like that at all. I've identified as a trans woman for less than a year, and in fact, I've found employment by working with some ex-colleagues (we were all made redundant at the same time in January). They recognise me as the lead software engineer. In turn, I recognise their talents; they were all a combination of developer and support, and I did not provide customer support in my role.

When I've come across the hard cases which was very rarely (and I still identified as male at these times), I exercised my rights and complained about any individual who unjustly put me down, and my opinions were heard. I would do the same thing now, and expect the same thing to happen.

I don't pass as a woman, and it's of course possible that that helps. In addition, the teams I work with are spread around the world, and maybe many people do not recognise what I wear as feminine (blouses look similar to shirts but dress codes vary between countries).
Started seriously questioning: 24 Aug 2019
Referred to GIC: 23 Sep 2019
Full-time female presentation since: 21 Oct 2019, unbroken since 12 Dec 2019
Official name change by deed poll: 11 Nov 2019
HRT: "kind of" started 15 Jul 2020
Most of my story is in the Just another mtf tale thread!
Twitch streamer MusicEllie

Offline pretty pauline

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Re: Do you find that you generally get less respect as a woman?
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2020, 06:36:14 pm »

I must admit I wouldn't "let" any husband "not let me" do anything complicated or carry heavy stuff. In both cases I am very capable.
It's not something he does or prevents me doing in an aggressive or forceful way, we're now married 10 years actually next Friday 21st August our 10th wedding anniversary, just a wonderful guy that's wants to take care of me. When we settled into married life he wanted things to be as normal as possible married to a transgender woman just like any other couple and things developed that way, he does all the ''guy stuff'' mows the lawn, fixing things and heavy chores, I do the ''wife stuff'' cooking, cleaning, polishing, dusting etc etc, if the computer breaks down or the printer needs ink cartridge replaced he won't let me near it, to him that's ''high tech'' and could get broken by a woman's hand LOL, I just let him at it, if it makes him happy being manly and he does things I don't have to worry about, but he does respect me as a woman, that's different than some sales guy that just sees me as a dumb blonde that can't do anything for myself.
I never expected or planned ending up with a husband, that's just the way things turned out, the biggest surprise when my transition was complete ending up marrying a man particularly as I dated women and had girlfriends before my transition I thought I'd ended up being a lesbian but actually ended up being a straight transgender woman and ended up with a boyfriend, he proposed marriage, we got engaged and got married and is now my husband, I never expected things to turn out that way.   
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Offline Ellie_Arroway

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Re: Do you find that you generally get less respect as a woman?
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2020, 07:23:27 pm »
It's not something he does or prevents me doing in an aggressive or forceful way, we're now married 10 years actually next Friday 21st August our 10th wedding anniversary,

Congratulations!

Quote
just a wonderful guy that's wants to take care of me. When we settled into married life he wanted things to be as normal as possible married to a transgender woman just like any other couple and things developed that way, he does all the ''guy stuff'' mows the lawn, fixing things and heavy chores, I do the ''wife stuff'' cooking, cleaning, polishing, dusting etc etc, if the computer breaks down or the printer needs ink cartridge replaced he won't let me near it, to him that's ''high tech'' and could get broken by a woman's hand LOL, I just let him at it, if it makes him happy being manly and he does things I don't have to worry about, but he does respect me as a woman, that's different than some sales guy that just sees me as a dumb blonde that can't do anything for myself.

I do see that. It's different for me... most of my skills lie squarely in the "male" department. I'm a software engineer by trade, so you can see why it wouldn't work for me! That said, I do understand. It sounds like if you really wanted to do those things, there would be no argument.

Quote
I never expected or planned ending up with a husband, that's just the way things turned out, the biggest surprise when my transition was complete ending up marrying a man particularly as I dated women and had girlfriends before my transition I thought I'd ended up being a lesbian but actually ended up being a straight transgender woman and ended up with a boyfriend, he proposed marriage, we got engaged and got married and is now my husband, I never expected things to turn out that way.   

I'm married, although separated, and expecting to stay that way. However, I don't have a crystal ball, so who knows what my future holds?

Let's just say I'm open to the possibility of being interested in anyone in the future should I get divorced. There are no plans for that right now.
Started seriously questioning: 24 Aug 2019
Referred to GIC: 23 Sep 2019
Full-time female presentation since: 21 Oct 2019, unbroken since 12 Dec 2019
Official name change by deed poll: 11 Nov 2019
HRT: "kind of" started 15 Jul 2020
Most of my story is in the Just another mtf tale thread!
Twitch streamer MusicEllie

Offline DebbieB

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Re: Do you find that you generally get less respect as a woman?
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2020, 10:10:20 pm »
You say scrum? Are you a software engineer, scrum master, product owner or something along those lines?

I was a Software Solution Architect for IBM for over 20 years.  The last 8 years as female.

It sounds like you were around some real hard cases. I knew a few people like that, but most were not like that at all. I've identified as a trans woman for less than a year, and in fact, I've found employment by working with some ex-colleagues (we were all made redundant at the same time in January). They recognise me as the lead software engineer. In turn, I recognise their talents; they were all a combination of developer and support, and I did not provide customer support in my role.

I was responsible for going into a client locations building a team that often included top talent and management from the client, IBM, different vendors, offshore teams, and getting that team to take on extraordinary challenges and produce great results such that I could move on to the next engagement.

I was known as "Special Forces", going into "Troubled Projects" that were either behind schedule, or the previous Architect was not able to create a workable solution that could be implemented within a sensible budget.  In some cases I had as little as half the original budget left to produce the same result.

The point is that I didn't have the luxury of going to a manager, or complaining to somebody, I just had to create a team that worked, find out who would be good managers, find out who had good technical skills, who could lead the offshore teams, and who could keep the project on task and on budget, all while guiding but not forcing the team to see a solution that included hardware, servers, services, products, databases, communication tools, connections between enterprises, and do it in ways that complied with state and federal laws and didn't break corporate security requirements.

When I described my profession to non-technical people I say "I make a whole bunch o computers from different organizations play nicely together, but my real job is making the people who RUN those computers play nicely together."

The most important thing was to get others to take ownership, to become committed to the success of the project and then get out of the way as soon as they said "we can do it ourselves, no problem, done deal", usually when the testing reached integration testing phase.

Quote
When I've come across the hard cases which was very rarely (and I still identified as male at these times), I exercised my rights and complained about any individual who unjustly put me down, and my opinions were heard. I would do the same thing now, and expect the same thing to happen.

I don't pass as a woman, and it's of course possible that that helps. In addition, the teams I work with are spread around the world, and maybe many people do not recognise what I wear as feminine (blouses look similar to shirts but dress codes vary between countries).

I did actually pass as a 50+ year old woman quite easily.  Often, I was the one who slipped and gave myself away.  Often I could go 4 to 6 weeks without slipping, and by then they knew that I was someone who would help them all make a lot of money for their companies, and that we would create wonderful things together.  They also knew that I would be going away as soon as the project turned "green" and they felt they could do without me.

I often got a kick out of watching the team get awards for the projects, and was grateful that I got away before they started handing out the awards and notices.  I was very much trying to stay "under the radar" because I did not want to get routed into sales.
Debbie Ballard - IT Architect
1st Transition 1988 to 1997 - detransitioned
2nd Transition 2010
HRT since 2011
Full Time since 2012

Offline pretty pauline

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Re: Do you find that you generally get less respect as a woman?
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2020, 07:42:59 am »
Congratulations!
Thank you, every wedding anniversary he always gives me flowers, but this Friday 10th anniversary, maybe a bigger bunch of flowers lol, taking me to a favorite restaurant, and probably a surprise, thank you for your good wishes.
Pauline.
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Offline alyssalove2790

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Re: Do you find that you generally get less respect as a woman?
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2020, 09:29:14 am »
I haven't lost much respect, in fact I have gained a lot of it with my newfound confidence!

I didn't have the male privilege much... I'm not very muscular and never wore my hair short unless it was for finding work... which I had to (rip 10 years long hair)... 'cause guys with long hair are unkempt... <nonsense> I say!

I did have some issues with some guys trying to mansplain me at work... like this one single guy (has yet to have a gf in his life, age 30) which was trying to mansplain me something about my relationship with my gf and I'm like...  ??? Dude you're single how can you even think you know better?? And then when he was trying to get me to explain to him where the water comes from in our industry... there's an outlet there what else do you need to know it comes from the city? I literally told him off to stop interrupting my work and that he was making a fool of himself.

I find the mansplainers to be the least informative, and that I'd rather consult my friend Google!
2018/**/** Coming out
2019/01/15 Begun HRT! Low dose Cypro and E.
2019/03/04 Full time woman!

Offline barbie

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Re: Do you find that you generally get less respect as a woman?
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2020, 12:07:25 pm »
Women are women's worst enemy.

Those young women at restaurant, airline and hotel counters are especially blunt and unkind to me. But they make a big smile and suddenly become very kind once they hear my low voice. Men are the opposite.



barbie~~
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Offline barbie

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Re: Do you find that you generally get less respect as a woman?
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2020, 12:15:36 pm »
I was a Software Solution Architect for IBM for over 20 years.  The last 8 years as female.

I was also once in a software development team for RS/6000 at a branch of IBM in Seoul during the early 1990s. At that time, about a half of employees there were women. I miss that time, as I was so young.

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