Author Topic: Born Trans VS Became Trans?  (Read 2422 times)

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Offline John406

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Re: Born Trans VS Became Trans?
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2019, 05:47:46 am »
Science is descovering things on a DNA level almost daily. Here is a really nice Ted Talk, done by an incredibly educated trans women scientist, that shows primary physical characteristics are developed in the first trimester, but the gender of the brain is developed in the second. Something has happened in our DNA knots to cause a mismatch between the two.

In my case, I believe the MASSIVE dose of hormones my mother got while pregnant with me (a drug called DES used for way too long to allegedly prevent miscarriages even after it was known not to work as intended. Scary thing? Some prenatal vitamins had DES in them so many women took this drug and don't even realize it.) that caused this mismatch.
Stress, diet, trauma, and drugs are just some of the stressors that could cause our DNA factories to get mixed signals causing this disparity.

Search term: Ted talk Karissa Sanbonmatsu the biology of gender

Remove space from link below to use. Space placed to prevent unintentional clicking.

ht tps://www.ted.com/talks/karissa_sanbonmatsu_the_biology_of_gender_from_dna_to_the_brain/transcript?language=en

While not THE answer, it gives a peek into how complex and special we are. There is no medical test for transgender if that is what you are looking for as "proof" you are, or are not, transgender. There are enough clues however that when we speak to a gender therapist worth even half a damn that they can help us reach the correct decision on if we are or not.

Hope this helps,

Ricki

Thanks for the link; fascinating stuff to be sure.  :)

Thinking that's the route to go, too; look for all the little clues; if enough piles up it can't just be a coincidence.  :-\

Offline AnneK

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Re: Born Trans VS Became Trans?
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2019, 08:38:41 am »
I suspect a more valid question would be when did you realize you were trans.  I'm sure many, like me, never considered ourselves to be trans, even though we were doing things that might indicate we were, until somewhat later in life.
I'm a 66 year old male who has been thinking about SRS for many years.  I also was a  full cross dresser for a few years.  I wear a bra, pantyhose and nail polish daily because it just feels right.

Started HRT April 17, 2019.

Offline KathyLauren

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Re: Born Trans VS Became Trans?
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2019, 08:48:37 am »
So would a neurologist be able to perform a brain scan on me and compare it a cis-male and cis-female and tell what brain my gender is? Or would my brain scan show me as a male because I thought I was a male growing up? Or is it a case of the technology needing to be perfected still, and the results could be hit or miss?

It is unlikely that brain scans would ever be able to give a definitive "diagnosis" of being transgender.  When measuring body parts (and there are lots of body parts that are gendered), there is always a huge overlap between male ranges and female ranges.

For example, men are, in general, taller than women.  But you can't diagnose gender by measuring someone's height.  There are plenty of tall women and short men.  It is only in an aggregate sampling of large numbers of people that the differences show up.

So, while brain scans of large numbers of people can confirm that the brain really is gendered, you cannot diagnose an individual that way.

....Are you an angel:D

Super awesome words of wisdom right there; thanks a ton. Really helped put things into perspective.

Yes, @Sephirah is one of the wisest people on the site!  I always pay attention when she posts.

There is no doubt that gender is determined before birth.  In my case, I am pretty sure that my mother took DES to prevent miscarriage, and that substance is known to be a cause for feminizing the brain.  I cannot confirm it, because my mother died before I came out as trans.

And it doesn't matter to me.  What matters is knowing that gender is determined before birth.  It means that it is not a choice.  I spent 60 years trying to choose the opposite, but eventually I couldn't keep it up any longer.

Seeing a gender therapist is one of the best things you can do at this stage, to sort out who you are and what you want.
2015-07-04 Awakening; 2015-11-15 Out to self; 2016-06-22 Out to wife; 2016-10-27 First time presenting in public; 2017-01-20 Started HRT!!; 2017-04-20 Out publicly, beginning full-time; 2017-07-10 Legal name change; 2019-02-15 Approval for GRS; 2019-08-02 Official gender change; 2019-10-18 Phone consultation for GRS; 2020-03-11 GRS!; 2020-09-30 New birth certificate




Offline John406

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Re: Born Trans VS Became Trans?
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2019, 09:33:22 am »

For example, men are, in general, taller than women.  But you can't diagnose gender by measuring someone's height. 

Seeing a gender therapist is one of the best things you can do at this stage, to sort out who you are and what you want.

Ah, that makes sense.  :)

And for sure; I found a guy locally that I'd like to see, but he costs 100-150 bucks per session; definitely need to get a job before doing anything lol. Been a couch potato ever since getting laid off a while back.

Offline Allie Jayne

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Re: Born Trans VS Became Trans?
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2019, 10:49:20 am »
It is unlikely that brain scans would ever be able to give a definitive "diagnosis" of being transgender.  When measuring body parts (and there are lots of body parts that are gendered), there is always a huge overlap between male ranges and female ranges.

For example, men are, in general, taller than women.  But you can't diagnose gender by measuring someone's height.  There are plenty of tall women and short men.  It is only in an aggregate sampling of large numbers of people that the differences show up.

So, while brain scans of large numbers of people can confirm that the brain really is gendered, you cannot diagnose an individual that way.


Kathy, from what I read, it is almost possible. The findings were that the Gender Identity part of the brain is Proportionately Smaller in Females than Males. This means that for any given total brain size, the relative size of the GI section will indicate male or female ID. This was determined from dissection, not scans, and I guess it isn’t so simple accurately determining the GI portion and it’s accurate size, but maybe one day the technology could exist.

Allie 

Offline Haley Conner

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Re: Born Trans VS Became Trans?
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2019, 10:53:23 am »
If you want validation in the form of some tangible indicator, you might try checking various physical indicators, such as the relative length of your ring and index fingers. 

Offline AnneK

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Re: Born Trans VS Became Trans?
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2019, 11:00:36 am »
Quote
This was determined from dissection

I'd rather not go through that, to find out.   ;)
I'm a 66 year old male who has been thinking about SRS for many years.  I also was a  full cross dresser for a few years.  I wear a bra, pantyhose and nail polish daily because it just feels right.

Started HRT April 17, 2019.

Offline Sephirah

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Re: Born Trans VS Became Trans?
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2019, 03:35:58 pm »
Sweetie, you just need to be in touch more with your emotions. They're the mind's most powerful tool to let us know what we need to do in life. I get the analytical "must know every little detail of everything" logical side of the brain. But that's only one part of it. It's the surface part.

The deeper part of all of us works in emotions, imagery, intuition. The "gut feelings" we get about things, and subsequently ignore because we have no rational basis for them... only for them to be proved right all along more often than not. Listen to that. I know it can be hard sometimes, but sometimes you just have to trust your feelings. I know as a guy you're taught to bury them, and see them as "airy-fairy girl stuff". Most people ever raised as a guy were taught this. Had it drilled into us. Believe only what you can see, or prove. That's how a large majority of guys were raised. Never show, or feel emotion. That it's somehow a bad thing.

But it's entirely the opposite. We're emotional creatures. Humans, I mean. Your feelings tell you more about who you are than anything you can see, or feel, or touch. Don't discount them as a by-product of something else. Listen to them, and you might just be surprised. :)

Offline John406

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Re: Born Trans VS Became Trans?
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2019, 08:33:30 pm »
Kathy, from what I read, it is almost possible. The findings were that the Gender Identity part of the brain is Proportionately Smaller in Females than Males. This means that for any given total brain size, the relative size of the GI section will indicate male or female ID. This was determined from dissection, not scans, and I guess it isn’t so simple accurately determining the GI portion and it’s accurate size, but maybe one day the technology could exist.

Allie

I second what Anne said; I don't need to know badly enough to have my brain dissected.  :laugh:

If you want validation in the form of some tangible indicator, you might try checking various physical indicators, such as the relative length of your ring and index fingers. 

Mom always remarks that I have "piano fingers". (She's been playing for years lol. I could never get into it.)



What's the significance of the fingers?  ???

Sweetie, you just need to be in touch more with your emotions. They're the mind's most powerful tool to let us know what we need to do in life. I get the analytical "must know every little detail of everything" logical side of the brain. But that's only one part of it. It's the surface part.

The deeper part of all of us works in emotions, imagery, intuition. The "gut feelings" we get about things, and subsequently ignore because we have no rational basis for them... only for them to be proved right all along more often than not. Listen to that. I know it can be hard sometimes, but sometimes you just have to trust your feelings. I know as a guy you're taught to bury them, and see them as "airy-fairy girl stuff". Most people ever raised as a guy were taught this. Had it drilled into us. Believe only what you can see, or prove. That's how a large majority of guys were raised. Never show, or feel emotion. That it's somehow a bad thing.

But it's entirely the opposite. We're emotional creatures. Humans, I mean. Your feelings tell you more about who you are than anything you can see, or feel, or touch. Don't discount them as a by-product of something else. Listen to them, and you might just be surprised. :)

Right? I've often commented to my friends and family how I hate that in Western civilization, it's only socially acceptable for guys to feel one of three emotions. Ask just about any dude, "How are you doing?" and they will reply with one of the following three things: 1.) "Fine/Okay." or 2.) "Angry/Ticked Off." or 3.) "Turned On/Horny."

If they say anything else, they risk being dubbed a giant wuss by society!  ::)

Offline Haley Conner

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Re: Born Trans VS Became Trans?
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2019, 10:21:37 pm »
Your ring finger looks to be longer than your index finger, indicating what is typically a male hand.  When a genetic female has hands like this it's likely an indicator of atypical prenatal testosterone levels.  So I guess that would answer your question. ( the title of the thread ).

Offline Sephirah

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Re: Born Trans VS Became Trans?
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2019, 02:57:02 pm »
Right? I've often commented to my friends and family how I hate that in Western civilization, it's only socially acceptable for guys to feel one of three emotions. Ask just about any dude, "How are you doing?" and they will reply with one of the following three things: 1.) "Fine/Okay." or 2.) "Angry/Ticked Off." or 3.) "Turned On/Horny."

If they say anything else, they risk being dubbed a giant wuss by society!  ::)

Lol that's how it is, for the most part. I kind of think it's an evolutionary throwback to the time where blokes were running around with spears, skewering sabre cats and whatnot. Feeling was a sign of weakness. You just have to look at a movie like 300 to see how... controlled dudes had their emotions. To feel something was to make you weak. You had to be like iron. And that's how it is for a lot of guys nowadays. That's how they've been raised. Unfortunately that's also how a lot of transgirls have been raised, too. And why so many live in denial for so long. Because acknowledging or actually listening to your emotional side has been jackhammered into a good many people born with a male body, that it's the absolute worst thing you can do.

The thing you have to get past, the thing which makes it so hard for people to properly open up about, is getting past that roadblock that you're a guy trying to explain how he feels. If you're a girl then... that doesn't apply. At least not in the same way. Despite all the programming you've had. That just makes it 50x worse.

Ricki

Re: Born Trans VS Became Trans?
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2019, 09:47:08 pm »
huh...My ring finger and index finger are 1/32 of an inch difference in length on both hands. This is apparently seen more frequently in girls.

Go figure  ::)

Ricki

Offline Sephirah

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Re: Born Trans VS Became Trans?
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2019, 09:54:27 pm »
Dunno about ring fingers. I wear a thumb ring. I think that officially makes me a hippie. ;D

Offline Linde

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Re: Born Trans VS Became Trans?
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2019, 10:15:13 pm »
When I was an embryo, DES was not around!  But my body and my brain still developed female.  I think the good people of the Mayo just found a partial reason why that is!  Their tests indicate that I have Hypogonadism that started during fetal development, this means, I never had a fighting chance to be a man, even if my chromosomes would have been simple XY.  My case shows that not only DES but a lot of other biological factors can make babies be born trans or intersex.


Offline John406

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Re: Born Trans VS Became Trans?
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2019, 03:08:14 pm »
Thanks for the info everyone, and sorry for the late reply; I've been quitting smoking and trying to sleep as much as possible to avoid cravings. It's officially been 1 day, 14 hours, 8 minutes, and 35 seconds since I finished my last cigarette.  ;D

Did some research on 2D:4D Digit Ratios and don't think it's too reliable; too many other variables come into play for it to be definitive, particularly genetic and environmental factors. Seems kinda like the brain scan thing; one of those tests that can be useful in a large group of people but doesn't really apply on an individual basis.

Offline Paige

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Re: Born Trans VS Became Trans?
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2019, 03:40:31 pm »
Hi John,

Just a quick thought.  Remember there's no brain scan to determine if someone is gay, lesbian or bi and yet the world has finally accepted that people can be born that way.

Take care,
Paige 😊

Offline John406

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Re: Born Trans VS Became Trans?
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2019, 04:03:36 pm »
Hi John,

Just a quick thought.  Remember there's no brain scan to determine if someone is gay, lesbian or bi and yet the world has finally accepted that people can be born that way.

Take care,
Paige 😊

An excellent point.  :)

Offline Linde

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Re: Born Trans VS Became Trans?
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2019, 09:17:07 pm »
Hi John,

Just a quick thought.  Remember there's no brain scan to determine if someone is gay, lesbian or bi and yet the world has finally accepted that people can be born that way.

Take care,
Paige 😊
The world has to rethink it again.  A mega study showed that there s no lesbian or gay gene! People are not born that way!  it seems that the environment made them that way!
https://www.popsci.com/genes-cannot-predict-same-sex-sexual-behavior/?utm_source=internal&utm_medium=email


Offline Allie Jayne

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Re: Born Trans VS Became Trans?
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2019, 09:47:10 pm »
The world has to rethink it again.  A mega study showed that there s no lesbian or gay gene! People are not born that way!  it seems that the environment made them that way!
https://www.popsci.com/genes-cannot-predict-same-sex-sexual-behavior/?utm_source=internal&utm_medium=email

Linde, it just means genetics aren't the cause, as is also the case with trans people. It doesn't me that we, or gays are made by their environments. They have found an anomaly in foetus brains is directly responsible for trans people, and likely something similar is responsible for gays, they just haven't found it yet.

Allie

Offline Linde

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Re: Born Trans VS Became Trans?
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2019, 10:23:43 pm »
Linde, it just means genetics aren't the cause, as is also the case with trans people. It doesn't me that we, or gays are made by their environments. They have found an anomaly in foetus brains is directly responsible for trans people, and likely something similar is responsible for gays, they just haven't found it yet.

Allie
Allie, read the paper!  They specifically excluded trans, intersex and non binary people from this study


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