Topic: Feminism, the Noble Lie

[Shana A]

http://masculinisme.blog-city.com/robert_sheaffer_1.htm

"Feminism, the Noble Lie
Robert Sheaffer
(A shorter version of this article appeared in
Free Inquiry Magazine, Spring, 1995. New text added June, 1996. Minor revisions April, 1997)

"If sex roles really are arbitrary constructions of society, created to keep women "in their place," why is it necessary to give transsexuals - individuals who already display many characteristics of the opposite sex - hormones of that opposite sex, prior to and separate from any surgery, to enable them to genuinely fit into their new role? Invariably these male or female hormones are reported as having profound mood-altering characteristics. For example, in the documentary film Max by the lesbian director Monika Treut, a pre-surgical female-to-male transsexual comments on the profound effects experienced upon being administered male hormones in the course of treatment. She reported that her energy level suddenly increased dramatically, as did her sex drive. Her moods were greatly affected, and she found herself unable to cry as much and as easily as she did before. This is not an isolated reaction, but rather such effects are the norm. Indeed they are the very rationale for the treatment: in order to produce behavior that will be seen as genuinely male or female, it is necessary to have the proper balance of sex hormones circulating in one's body. Feminists, however, attribute such behavior in men to "socialization". "

[Keira]

I think she's extrapolating one person's comment to suit her needs.
I know plenty of MTF or FTM who while having a sense of well being
with hormones mostly explain it by finally being themselves.

The brain has powerfull effects on mood and energy that obscures the
effects of estrogen so much that it would be very hard to truly study
its effect on MTF. Just ask a depressed person how much energy they have,
how much crying they do; most case of impotency under 40 is psychological.
No doubt, that the hormones have psychological effects, but its not massive;
they are subtle mostly.

[Jordynfae]

So, Feminism, from my growing understanding, started as a women's rights movement. To gain rights that were only given to men such as landownership, opening a bank account, having a means to support and freely live as an individual on their own terms. This has since been extended to equal rights to all persons. Of course your going to have subgroups who tweaked the definition to their own beliefs and personal agendas, but at it's core, today, feminism is about ensuring equal rights across the board.
It does not take a strict Social Constructionist view, but accepts that gender, gender roles and how their expressed are significantly linked to values and beliefs and attitudes society at large as towards each sex. You can see examples of it today, just looked at all the different roles/careers/titles/practices women had traditional been excluded from Entering, who are now excelling at and even becoming leaders in those areas.
We have been evolving as a species for hundreds of thousands of years, most of that time was spent fulfilling two primary functions, survival and reproduction. Now we've reach a point where survival his merely a trivial matter, life expectancy is rising due to technological advancements which is accelerating at remarkable rates, this is a game changer for our bodies. The different personality traits traditionally imposed on each sex, such as men needing to be aggressive and protective, to fight off potential threats and to hunt,  is associated with higher testosterone levels, higher level of estrogen in woman made them more empathetic, caring/nurturing ensuring that newborns where getting the proper attention and care necessary for survival, these are deeply engraved traits which evolved for many many many Millenia or hundred of thousands of years. We've really only been at this level of advancement for what? Alittle over 100 years? It's going to take time for our bodies to start optimizing chemical distribution for maximum efficiency relative to the survival needs of our species.

 

(I have no clue what I'm talking about and alot of what I said is coming from personal observations mixed in with my understanding of evolution and social sciences, I also acknowledge this statement is coming from a privileged perspective having been born in "first world" society and has faced relatively speaking, very little hardship.)

[Rachel Montgomery]

I think I largely agree with Jordynfae.  Feminism isn’t defined by a belief in social constructs.  Social constructs describe one theory for the way things are, and many feminists put a lot of faith in the theory.  But, I think our experiences argue strongly against social constructionist positions. 

If gender were purely a social construct, I would be a cis man.  I was CERTAINLY raised to be such.  Almost all of us would be cos-males.  Very few of us were groomed by socialization to be women.  Quite the opposite.  And, the case of David Reiner makes a very strong case study for what happens when you try to raise a cos boy to be a girl.  It doesn’t work.  It does really make them messed up, but it doesn’t make them happy women.

Feminism has changed a lot over the years.  I agree with some feminists and disagree with others on various points.  But, I do agree wholeheartedly that everyone should be treated equally, with respect and dignity.  Jobs and pay should be based on merit, not sex or gender.  The best person willing to do the job for the pay should get it.  And, their sex or gender shouldn’t effect the pay.

And, hormones certainly effect emotions and thinking.  But, they don’t qualify or disqualify anyone from voting, working, equal pay, etc..

[Gertrude]

So, Feminism, from my growing understanding, started as a women's rights movement. To gain rights that were only given to men such as landownership, opening a bank account, having a means to support and freely live as an individual on their own terms. This has since been extended to equal rights to all persons. Of course your going to have subgroups who tweaked the definition to their own beliefs and personal agendas, but at it's core, today, feminism is about ensuring equal rights across the board.
It does not take a strict Social Constructionist view, but accepts that gender, gender roles and how their expressed are significantly linked to values and beliefs and attitudes society at large as towards each sex. You can see examples of it today, just looked at all the different roles/careers/titles/practices women had traditional been excluded from Entering, who are now excelling at and even becoming leaders in those areas.
We have been evolving as a species for hundreds of thousands of years, most of that time was spent fulfilling two primary functions, survival and reproduction. Now we've reach a point where survival his merely a trivial matter, life expectancy is rising due to technological advancements which is accelerating at remarkable rates, this is a game changer for our bodies. The different personality traits traditionally imposed on each sex, such as men needing to be aggressive and protective, to fight off potential threats and to hunt,  is associated with higher testosterone levels, higher level of estrogen in woman made them more empathetic, caring/nurturing ensuring that newborns where getting the proper attention and care necessary for survival, these are deeply engraved traits which evolved for many many many Millenia or hundred of thousands of years. We've really only been at this level of advancement for what? Alittle over 100 years? It's going to take time for our bodies to start optimizing chemical distribution for maximum efficiency relative to the survival needs of our species.

 

(I have no clue what I'm talking about and alot of what I said is coming from personal observations mixed in with my understanding of evolution and social sciences, I also acknowledge this statement is coming from a privileged perspective having been born in "first world" society and has faced relatively speaking, very little hardship.)

Evolution is ongoing. For some, it stopped 10-30k years ago. I expect that we will continue to evolve based on the conditions that exist. I can say that having low T and at one time I took T to solve some issues that it indeed changes the mind and body. It was like going through puberty again, which wasn't a good thing, at least not with T.

We have folks that see things as purely social and nurture and others nature/biological when it's really both. They feed each other in a loop, sort of like the wave and particle attributes of light. My POV is, let folks live as they wish and ditch the musterbation.

[Rachel Montgomery]

Evolution is ongoing. For some, it stopped 10-30k years ago. I expect that we will continue to evolve based on the conditions that exist. I can say that having low T and at one time I took T to solve some issues that it indeed changes the mind and body. It was like going through puberty again, which wasn't a good thing, at least not with T.

We have folks that see things as purely social and nurture and others nature/biological when it's really both. They feed each other in a loop, sort of like the wave and particle attributes of light. My POV is, let folks live as they wish and ditch the musterbation.

No doubt about it, both biology and environment effect who we are.  In fact, biology is even altered by environment where external chemicals act to create changes in body chemistry.  For example, we put dozens of products a day on our bodies that have effects on our hormone levels that science doesn’t fully understand.  Making matters worse, based on your genetics and Eli-genetics, the same chemicals will effect one person differently than the next.  It is confounding.  Endocrine disrupters in shampoo is an example.

Still, my life experiences tell me that biology is a more significant factor in shaping us than environment.  You can grow a square sided watermelon in a box, but it is still going to be a watermelon.  Our lives can pressure us to conform, but to a larger extent, we will still be the same person. 

[Devlyn]

Mmmmmm, watermelon. 

[Gertrude]

No doubt about it, both biology and environment effect who we are.  In fact, biology is even altered by environment where external chemicals act to create changes in body chemistry.  For example, we put dozens of products a day on our bodies that have effects on our hormone levels that science doesn’t fully understand.  Making matters worse, based on your genetics and Eli-genetics, the same chemicals will effect one person differently than the next.  It is confounding.  Endocrine disrupters in shampoo is an example.

Still, my life experiences tell me that biology is a more significant factor in shaping us than environment.  You can grow a square sided watermelon in a box, but it is still going to be a watermelon.  Our lives can pressure us to conform, but to a larger extent, we will still be the same person.

The flipside on that is, I have to wonder if epi-genetics factors in with us, meaning environmental factors when we were developing in our mother's wombs. The thing is, the die cast before we emerge. Afterwards, I think the social aspects cause maladaptive behaviors if one lives in closed cultures. Depression, addictions, etc. Some think that this causes our problems when it's the other way around, at least in specific contexts. I ran into this with a friend. Basically, his son now daughter came out as MTF trans. He called me to B&M about(he doesn't know I am trans, I am in the closet) saying it was because he wasn't strong enough as a child, that my friend wasn't strong enough of a father figure, that depression caused it.  I had to bite my tongue several times(this was over the phone). Inside I am like dude, your daughter was born this way. His wife is handling it better. I don't think she follows the same path of thinking, but I don't know for sure.
It's a strange world MacDuff.

[Rachel Montgomery]

The flipside on that is, I have to wonder if epi-genetics factors in with us, meaning environmental factors when we were developing in our mother's wombs. The thing is, the die cast before we emerge. Afterwards, I think the social aspects cause maladaptive behaviors if one lives in closed cultures. Depression, addictions, etc. Some think that this causes our problems when it's the other way around, at least in specific contexts.

Environmental exposure to chemicals (like DES) can certainly effect development, and the altered course can be permanent.  But, once altered it is the biology that makes the biggest difference, not the culture.

Apparently (for one reason or another) I am prone to depression and gender issues by my pituitary abnormality.

[Jo35]

The Article in the first post of this thread is in a certain sense quite maliciously inaccurate. The opinions the author describes are not „the Feminism“ but reflect the opinion of a minority of Feminists.

I understand Feminism as a movement to fight for equal rights for Women (Cis as well as Trans). There is the argument that the definition of a woman is a societal construct.

Some time ago I had a very interesting discussion with a good friend and colleague about this (concerning transgender athletes at the olympics). Regarding transphobic comments about Laurel Hubbard she asked, who decides what a woman is? Society should not decide whether Laurel Hubbard is a woman or not, she should do that herself. Actually quite a few women in my life share a very trans friendly feminist view. This was a very fascinating thing to learn.

I think that the point made by my friend is a very good point which shows what feminism is about. Unfortunately it was and nowadays is society who decides that women should get lesser pay, go to the kitchen, be at a disadvantage in the leadership of companies. All of this because they are Women. Sadly on this earth somebody has always to be discriminated. Nowadays and in the past it was women and minorities. Feminism tries to fight against that. The goal is and should be to achieve equality, not to put somebody else into the minority.

Feminists are right in pointing out the discriminations. It is sadly a fact that the people who do bad things to women are mainly men. No Man should be allowed to walk up to a Trans Woman and ask her tauntingly whether she has a penis. Why does a male employee get more money for the same work as a woman? No Man should ever be allowed to threaten and rape a Woman. Sadly all of these things happen.

Now there is an equality article in many constitutions which says, treat different things different, treat same things equal. Are societal views on gender a reason to treat people differently? No, but society has made a social construction which treats women differently because they have biological differences to men in matters where biological differences are of no importance (for example women in leadership). Transpeople are treated as outcasts despite the fact that in most parts of life, there is absolutely no importance wether you are interacting with a man or a woman. This is what has to change.

My point is that transgender people and especially we, Trans Women, have actually two reasons to be part of feminism. In Society’s view women and trans people are not equal. Trans Women are both.

[Jordynfae]

Still, my life experiences tell me that biology is a more significant factor in shaping us than environment.  You can grow a square sided watermelon in a box, but it is still going to be a watermelon.  Our lives can pressure us to conform, but to a larger extent, we will still be the same person.

Good points, although I feel as through, personally, you are over simplifying the environmental factors that play into shaping our personalities, as I believe that the "nurtur" which really means the environmental factors such as our Socioeconomic & finacial status, as well as oir physical environment (city/country/apartment/house big/small family)  have a major impact on our mental wellbeing/state of mind/our genes/personality, yes biochemistry is important forsure, but I think it plays the smaller role. When we are babies(even as fetuses) our brains develop begin developing our neuro network and nervous system, which as you may know is the way information travels thoughout the brain and body, Neurons recieve and transmit messages from one part of the body to another, controlling reflexes, touch, smells sight, storing information, to solving xomplex math problems, developing our personalities, this is all done via neurons communicating with each other, literally everything we do is a direct result of the function of this system.


So everytime we experience something particularly in our first 20 years, the most active being between prenatal to puberty, creates neuro pathways, these pathways grow rapidly then begin trimming unused pathways.
So the exposure to external stimuli really shapes us and our earliest experiences Infact shapes us greatly, biology does play a role, when you get into hormon levels and dopeamine and serotonin and oxytocin etc. But external factors greatly effect how and when those hornones are distributed. That is called epigentics (when gene function gets altered as opposed to changing DNA) so like alcoholism/addictions is the result of epigenetic hereditary not genetic hereditary,
Our personalities we feel like are who we are interenally and thatbwe are wired that way. For the most part its true, but I believe that is because our personality is the core of our neuro network, which is shape by the fabulously complex and nuanced interaction of external simuli and our nervous system from the moment it begins to develop in the womb.
Anyway, our sex hormones have two very important stages of activity that effect our development
Once during prenatal development where we develop our primary sex characteristics (development nod either the vagina or penis) and in puberty, development of secondary sex characteristics (breast, or deepening of voice or certain muscels etc).
The development of male sex characteristics is the result of high levels of testosterone at these key points (testosterone is the strong hormone out of the two, we essentially all start out as female, but depending the on the amount of testosterone released determines whether we develop a penis or not)
As far as gendee, we begin the socialization process at birth or now with modern technology we xan know before birth the sex characteristics and will start the socialization process before the baby is even born, this socialization has a profound impact on our development. Also depending on the the external factors the mother was going through during pregnanc, possibly even at the time of conception, can effect the way in which the body releases chemicals, which would effect how the fetus develops.
Basically I belive its not exactly 50/50 I think rather its more like 30/70 in favour of nurtur.
As external factors can effect how our bodies send and recieve chemicals etc. Etc. Etc.

[Rachel Montgomery]

Are you familiar with “twin” studies, where identical twins adopted by different families end up very, very similar in interest, aptitude and personality?

[Rachel Montgomery]

Hormones are very little “nurture”.  That (hormone levels) is “nature”, even if it is influenced by external stimuli such as drugs the mother took during pregnancy.  Ok, not genetics, but chemistry.   

How much money your parents make or don’t make doesn’t effect your sexual orientation or your gender.  There are poor trans people and there are rich ones. 

Socialization doesn’t make us cis or het (at least I am not aware of any credible Everdeen e that it does).  If it did, I wouldn’t be trans.  I was definitely socialized to NOT be trans.  But, despite my nurturing, I am trans. 

My nieces and nephews are MUCH more like me and my family than my step-kids are, and I raised them from a VERY young age.  But, the boy is just like his dad (who he dislikes), and the girl isn’t like my biological family either.  They aren’t better or worse, but their interests and ambitions are completely different, despite being raised IN MY family. 

[Jordynfae]

Hormones are very little “nurture”.  That (hormone levels) is “nature”, even if it is influenced by external stimuli such as drugs the mother took during pregnancy.  Ok, not genetics, but chemistry.   

How much money your parents make or don’t make doesn’t effect your sexual orientation or your gender.  There are poor trans people and there are rich ones. 

Socialization doesn’t make us cis or het (at least I am not aware of any credible Everdeen e that it does).  If it did, I wouldn’t be trans.  I was definitely socialized to NOT be trans.  But, despite my nurturing, I am trans. 

My nieces and nephews are MUCH more like me and my family than my step-kids are, and I raised them from a VERY young age.  But, the boy is just like his dad (who he dislikes), and the girl isn’t like my biological family either.  They aren’t better or worse, but their interests and ambitions are completely different, despite being raised IN MY family.

Im sorry, I dodnt mean to say gender was because of socialization, obviously genetics play a significant role in this. If it where the case id rather feel comfortable in the skin i was born in. But I cannot control this. I apologize for not being clear.

I am aware of the twin test, and it confirms the both genetics and environmental play a crucial role in how we develop.