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Feminism, the Noble Lie

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Shana A:
http://masculinisme.blog-city.com/robert_sheaffer_1.htm

"Feminism, the Noble Lie
Robert Sheaffer
(A shorter version of this article appeared in
Free Inquiry Magazine, Spring, 1995. New text added June, 1996. Minor revisions April, 1997)

"If sex roles really are arbitrary constructions of society, created to keep women "in their place," why is it necessary to give transsexuals - individuals who already display many characteristics of the opposite sex - hormones of that opposite sex, prior to and separate from any surgery, to enable them to genuinely fit into their new role? Invariably these male or female hormones are reported as having profound mood-altering characteristics. For example, in the documentary film Max by the lesbian director Monika Treut, a pre-surgical female-to-male transsexual comments on the profound effects experienced upon being administered male hormones in the course of treatment. She reported that her energy level suddenly increased dramatically, as did her sex drive. Her moods were greatly affected, and she found herself unable to cry as much and as easily as she did before. This is not an isolated reaction, but rather such effects are the norm. Indeed they are the very rationale for the treatment: in order to produce behavior that will be seen as genuinely male or female, it is necessary to have the proper balance of sex hormones circulating in one's body. Feminists, however, attribute such behavior in men to "socialization". "

Keira:

I think she's extrapolating one person's comment to suit her needs.
I know plenty of MTF or FTM who while having a sense of well being
with hormones mostly explain it by finally being themselves.

The brain has powerfull effects on mood and energy that obscures the
effects of estrogen so much that it would be very hard to truly study
its effect on MTF. Just ask a depressed person how much energy they have,
how much crying they do; most case of impotency under 40 is psychological.
No doubt, that the hormones have psychological effects, but its not massive;
they are subtle mostly.

Jordynfae:
So, Feminism, from my growing understanding, started as a women's rights movement. To gain rights that were only given to men such as landownership, opening a bank account, having a means to support and freely live as an individual on their own terms. This has since been extended to equal rights to all persons. Of course your going to have subgroups who tweaked the definition to their own beliefs and personal agendas, but at it's core, today, feminism is about ensuring equal rights across the board.
It does not take a strict Social Constructionist view, but accepts that gender, gender roles and how their expressed are significantly linked to values and beliefs and attitudes society at large as towards each sex. You can see examples of it today, just looked at all the different roles/careers/titles/practices women had traditional been excluded from Entering, who are now excelling at and even becoming leaders in those areas.
We have been evolving as a species for hundreds of thousands of years, most of that time was spent fulfilling two primary functions, survival and reproduction. Now we've reach a point where survival his merely a trivial matter, life expectancy is rising due to technological advancements which is accelerating at remarkable rates, this is a game changer for our bodies. The different personality traits traditionally imposed on each sex, such as men needing to be aggressive and protective, to fight off potential threats and to hunt,  is associated with higher testosterone levels, higher level of estrogen in woman made them more empathetic, caring/nurturing ensuring that newborns where getting the proper attention and care necessary for survival, these are deeply engraved traits which evolved for many many many Millenia or hundred of thousands of years. We've really only been at this level of advancement for what? Alittle over 100 years? It's going to take time for our bodies to start optimizing chemical distribution for maximum efficiency relative to the survival needs of our species.

 

(I have no clue what I'm talking about and alot of what I said is coming from personal observations mixed in with my understanding of evolution and social sciences, I also acknowledge this statement is coming from a privileged perspective having been born in "first world" society and has faced relatively speaking, very little hardship.)

Rachel Montgomery:
I think I largely agree with Jordynfae.  Feminism isn’t defined by a belief in social constructs.  Social constructs describe one theory for the way things are, and many feminists put a lot of faith in the theory.  But, I think our experiences argue strongly against social constructionist positions. 

If gender were purely a social construct, I would be a cis man.  I was CERTAINLY raised to be such.  Almost all of us would be cos-males.  Very few of us were groomed by socialization to be women.  Quite the opposite.  And, the case of David Reiner makes a very strong case study for what happens when you try to raise a cos boy to be a girl.  It doesn’t work.  It does really make them messed up, but it doesn’t make them happy women.

Feminism has changed a lot over the years.  I agree with some feminists and disagree with others on various points.  But, I do agree wholeheartedly that everyone should be treated equally, with respect and dignity.  Jobs and pay should be based on merit, not sex or gender.  The best person willing to do the job for the pay should get it.  And, their sex or gender shouldn’t effect the pay.

And, hormones certainly effect emotions and thinking.  But, they don’t qualify or disqualify anyone from voting, working, equal pay, etc..

Gertrude:

--- Quote from: Jordynfae on January 20, 2022, 09:38:51 pm ---So, Feminism, from my growing understanding, started as a women's rights movement. To gain rights that were only given to men such as landownership, opening a bank account, having a means to support and freely live as an individual on their own terms. This has since been extended to equal rights to all persons. Of course your going to have subgroups who tweaked the definition to their own beliefs and personal agendas, but at it's core, today, feminism is about ensuring equal rights across the board.
It does not take a strict Social Constructionist view, but accepts that gender, gender roles and how their expressed are significantly linked to values and beliefs and attitudes society at large as towards each sex. You can see examples of it today, just looked at all the different roles/careers/titles/practices women had traditional been excluded from Entering, who are now excelling at and even becoming leaders in those areas.
We have been evolving as a species for hundreds of thousands of years, most of that time was spent fulfilling two primary functions, survival and reproduction. Now we've reach a point where survival his merely a trivial matter, life expectancy is rising due to technological advancements which is accelerating at remarkable rates, this is a game changer for our bodies. The different personality traits traditionally imposed on each sex, such as men needing to be aggressive and protective, to fight off potential threats and to hunt,  is associated with higher testosterone levels, higher level of estrogen in woman made them more empathetic, caring/nurturing ensuring that newborns where getting the proper attention and care necessary for survival, these are deeply engraved traits which evolved for many many many Millenia or hundred of thousands of years. We've really only been at this level of advancement for what? Alittle over 100 years? It's going to take time for our bodies to start optimizing chemical distribution for maximum efficiency relative to the survival needs of our species.

 

(I have no clue what I'm talking about and alot of what I said is coming from personal observations mixed in with my understanding of evolution and social sciences, I also acknowledge this statement is coming from a privileged perspective having been born in "first world" society and has faced relatively speaking, very little hardship.)

--- End quote ---

Evolution is ongoing. For some, it stopped 10-30k years ago. I expect that we will continue to evolve based on the conditions that exist. I can say that having low T and at one time I took T to solve some issues that it indeed changes the mind and body. It was like going through puberty again, which wasn't a good thing, at least not with T.

We have folks that see things as purely social and nurture and others nature/biological when it's really both. They feed each other in a loop, sort of like the wave and particle attributes of light. My POV is, let folks live as they wish and ditch the musterbation.

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