Author Topic: Not sure if I am intersex  (Read 3847 times)

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Offline BrightWindow

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Re: Not sure if I am intersex
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2019, 04:02:43 am »
I am not sure what that means, or how you can say that with certainty if it means what I think it means.  Gender may well have its causal element in some combination of genes.  Many (perhaps not all) transwomen have neurological brain structures and neuron density which is sexually dimorphically female.  That may be a biological thing that results in gender identity. 
I don't know what you are referring to.  There are cisgender people who need to transition?  What leads you to this conclusion?

When I say "Gender is not biological at all" I am not denying that there are biological explanations of gender, as sex and gender are connected, but I am saying that gender refers to the social and emotional elements rather than the biological, and a person's gender identity should be taken as a measure of what the right gender for that person is, regardless of any biological measure. I am saying that forcing me to live as a cis man is wrong, regardless of whether I have high T or low T, XX or XY or indeed XXXX or XYY, regardless of whether I have ovaries or testicles, or neither, because I identify as a woman.

Yes there are cisgender and/or cissexual people who need to transition, arguably including Linde. For any reason they may have had changes made to their bodies that they do not want, and/or placed into the wrong gender role. It may be very much a minority of cisgender/cissexual people, but it can and does happen.
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Offline Linde

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Re: Not sure if I am intersex
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2019, 11:06:00 am »
.

Yes there are cisgender and/or cissexual people who need to transition, arguably including Linde. For any reason they may have had changes made to their bodies that they do not want, and/or placed into the wrong gender role. It may be very much a minority of cisgender/cissexual people, but it can and does happen.
One has to stretch very far to call me cisgender upon birth!  After all, I had male genitalia, and that took me clearly out of the cis section, but made me intersex.
Now that I live as a woman all the time, and have hardly anything left of my male genitalia (all will be gone very shortly, I hope). I consider myself to be cis (with an intersex background).


Offline BrightWindow

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Re: Not sure if I am intersex
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2019, 01:30:22 pm »
One has to stretch very far to call me cisgender upon birth!  After all, I had male genitalia, and that took me clearly out of the cis section, but made me intersex.
Now that I live as a woman all the time, and have hardly anything left of my male genitalia (all will be gone very shortly, I hope). I consider myself to be cis (with an intersex background).
Yes, intersex people can be difficult to apply the labels of "cisgender" and "transgender" to. However, you did say that you have always had a female body and if we accept that this is true, you are cisgender. However, as I said earlier, that also depends on whether we define the labels cisgender and transgender in terms of the sex you were pronounced as or the physical sex you truly were. For most they are the same, but for some intersex people they may be different. As I say being intersex is a spectrum, many are much closer towards one traditional sex group than the other, some are more ambiguous, but nobody is 100% intersex.

I take it from your post that you are electing for an SRS to get female genitalia? If so, best of luck with that  :)
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Offline Linde

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Re: Not sure if I am intersex
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2019, 02:07:04 pm »
Yes, intersex people can be difficult to apply the labels of "cisgender" and "transgender" to. However, you did say that you have always had a female body and if we accept that this is true, you are cisgender. However, as I said earlier, that also depends on whether we define the labels cisgender and transgender in terms of the sex you were pronounced as or the physical sex you truly were. For most they are the same, but for some intersex people they may be different. As I say being intersex is a spectrum, many are much closer towards one traditional sex group than the other, some are more ambiguous, but nobody is 100% intersex.

I take it from your post that you are electing for an SRS to get female genitalia? If so, best of luck with that  :)
You understood this right, my body never developed male (no secondary male sex characteristics except some facial hair), and it stayed for most of my life in a pre-puberty stage, but developed female sex characteristics later in my life.
However, I was born with male genitalia,  there is no way around that.  This made me male in those days.
And yes I have part of this surgery done already (orchiectomy), and I am in line for the final surgery to become fully female.  Legally, I am female for some time now.

I am lucky that I do not need any feminization surgery, the face you can see in the avatar is without makeup, taken on Dec 6 2019.  I have no receding hairline, and do not need a wig or anything of this kind, and my boobs are also natural and Ok sized for my taste (Europ measures  85 DD).
So, yes, once the surgery is done I will be the same lieke a cis woman after an hysterectomy.  And for the rest of the world, I will live as such, one could it call stealth, if one wants to.


Offline josie76

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Re: Not sure if I am intersex
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2019, 09:10:16 pm »

I think I remember reading somewhere on the internet that gender identity is solidified at age 3 but I couldn't confirm that.
Gender is not biological at all. Sex is, but when we are talking about gender that is the social and emotional elements.

This is incorrect. All mammals including humans have different instincts wired into us depending 'normally' on our sex. However science has shown us that just as our sex is dimorphic, our gender and our sexuality are as well. What separates these 3 things is the time at which they become set.

To break it down:

1st trimester- reproductive organs are selected by chemical signals and the activation of cell receptors. We all begin with both male and female structures and one pair of bipotential gonads. If we have an SRY gene then normally by our 6th week the gonads will be responding to a protein the SRY gene encodes and will grow testes cells. These have to produce a hormone to stop the growth of the female structures and ovarian cells. The testes will also need to produce testosterone hormone. So if you have a functional SRY gene you normally grow male sexual organs and supress the female ones until they die off. If you do not have a functional SRY gene then the testes cells will not form and by 12 weeks the ovarian cells and female organs will be growing by default. The genital folds require a more powerful androgen hormone (dihydrotestosterone) in order to react and form male genitals. Without this they will default to female genitals.

2nd trimester- the brain undergoes rapid development. Certain areas of the brain are known to have the base neural pattern set by the level of testosterone exposure. In particular the IFOF region has been found to be permanently patterned in this timeframe by testosterone. Without a high enough testosterone exposure this area defaults to a feminine pattern. Studies have been done examining brains in prenatal, adolescent, and through adulthood. Several things have been found. One is that once the base neural pattern is formed, no change later in life can be made to happen. Even with cross hormone therapy this region remains the same. When the measurable traits were mapped it was clear that the majority of women were at one end and men at the other. There is some overlap in the groups. When the specific data of transgender people is looked at it is clear that trans people gravitate to the end opposite their birth sex. nonbinary people tended to appear in the overlap area. Neurologists have established some links to this region being associated with reproductive instincts such as maternal drives when patterned in the feminine way.

Third trimester- various studies has shown that a person's sexual attraction is also set according to exposure to male hormones or the lack of it toward the end of the third trimester. We know of some common differences but I have not read the more recent research on this state. Typically parts of the hypothalamus are known to be different in size and neural density depending on how much a person finds the female or male body as attractive.

So all of this research has shown repeated links between certain areas of the brain being permanently set before birth and that these regions contain the specifics for low level mammalian instincts that form part of the core drives of men and women respectively. Essentially, physical sex, gender identity (instincts), and sexual attraction are all related but separate traits of each individual. For the majority these all match and align but for some they do not. The science also demonstrates that a spectrum does exist for sex, gender, and sexuality.

So while "gender roles" are based in society and can differ between societies, "gender identity" is an innate trait. Even psychological studies used to attempt to prove the idea of gender being a social construct have actually proven this idea false. Parents and society can instill gender roles and expectations on a child but if their innate gender identity does not match their sex they will eventually either reject the social roles or end up in depression and with suicidal ideation.


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Offline Maid Marion

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Re: Not sure if I am intersex
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2019, 09:29:55 pm »
My body is one of the more ambiguous ones as I'm a small petite hourglass.  This summer my waist/hip ratio got as low as 0.73.  Age is 56 and still have a very feminine head of hair.  No visible Adam's Apple and I easily pass as female on telephone.  Male fail all the time. I have very feminine mannerisms.  Folks hold the door for me all the time!

Offline Linde

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Re: Not sure if I am intersex
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2019, 10:57:38 pm »
My body is one of the more ambiguous ones as I'm a small petite hourglass.  This summer my waist/hip ratio got as low as 0.73.  Age is 56 and still have a very feminine head of hair.  No visible Adam's Apple and I easily pass as female on telephone.  Male fail all the time. I have very feminine mannerisms.  Folks hold the door for me all the time!
Have you ever been tested for any intersex conditions?
The feminine mannerisms are a social construct, but the hair and no Adams Apple could indicate low testosterone levels (hypogonadism, like I have?)


Offline BrightWindow

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Re: Not sure if I am intersex
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2019, 03:39:20 am »
This is incorrect. All mammals including humans have different instincts wired into us depending 'normally' on our sex. However science has shown us that just as our sex is dimorphic, our gender and our sexuality are as well. What separates these 3 things is the time at which they become set.

To break it down:

1st trimester- reproductive organs are selected by chemical signals and the activation of cell receptors. We all begin with both male and female structures and one pair of bipotential gonads. If we have an SRY gene then normally by our 6th week the gonads will be responding to a protein the SRY gene encodes and will grow testes cells. These have to produce a hormone to stop the growth of the female structures and ovarian cells. The testes will also need to produce testosterone hormone. So if you have a functional SRY gene you normally grow male sexual organs and supress the female ones until they die off. If you do not have a functional SRY gene then the testes cells will not form and by 12 weeks the ovarian cells and female organs will be growing by default. The genital folds require a more powerful androgen hormone (dihydrotestosterone) in order to react and form male genitals. Without this they will default to female genitals.

2nd trimester- the brain undergoes rapid development. Certain areas of the brain are known to have the base neural pattern set by the level of testosterone exposure. In particular the IFOF region has been found to be permanently patterned in this timeframe by testosterone. Without a high enough testosterone exposure this area defaults to a feminine pattern. Studies have been done examining brains in prenatal, adolescent, and through adulthood. Several things have been found. One is that once the base neural pattern is formed, no change later in life can be made to happen. Even with cross hormone therapy this region remains the same. When the measurable traits were mapped it was clear that the majority of women were at one end and men at the other. There is some overlap in the groups. When the specific data of transgender people is looked at it is clear that trans people gravitate to the end opposite their birth sex. nonbinary people tended to appear in the overlap area. Neurologists have established some links to this region being associated with reproductive instincts such as maternal drives when patterned in the feminine way.

Third trimester- various studies has shown that a person's sexual attraction is also set according to exposure to male hormones or the lack of it toward the end of the third trimester. We know of some common differences but I have not read the more recent research on this state. Typically parts of the hypothalamus are known to be different in size and neural density depending on how much a person finds the female or male body as attractive.

So all of this research has shown repeated links between certain areas of the brain being permanently set before birth and that these regions contain the specifics for low level mammalian instincts that form part of the core drives of men and women respectively. Essentially, physical sex, gender identity (instincts), and sexual attraction are all related but separate traits of each individual. For the majority these all match and align but for some they do not. The science also demonstrates that a spectrum does exist for sex, gender, and sexuality.

So while "gender roles" are based in society and can differ between societies, "gender identity" is an innate trait. Even psychological studies used to attempt to prove the idea of gender being a social construct have actually proven this idea false. Parents and society can instill gender roles and expectations on a child but if their innate gender identity does not match their sex they will eventually either reject the social roles or end up in depression and with suicidal ideation.
When I say "Gender is not biological at all" I am not denying that there are biological explanations of gender, as sex and gender are connected, but I am saying that gender refers to the social and emotional elements rather than the biological, and a person's gender identity should be taken as a measure of what the right gender for that person is, regardless of any biological measure. I am saying that forcing me to live as a cis man is wrong, regardless of whether I have high T or low T, XX or XY or indeed XXXX or XYY, regardless of whether I have ovaries or testicles, or neither, because I identify as a woman.

Thank you for further enlightening me on the biology of gender identity formation however. The internet can be a very misleading place, and I am grateful for your explanation of physical sex, gender identity, and sexual attraction.
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Offline Maid Marion

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Re: Not sure if I am intersex
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2019, 06:06:59 am »
No testing.  I don't have any low T medical issues.

Offline zirconia

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Re: Not sure if I am intersex
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2019, 07:40:06 am »
The concept of gender as separate from sex except as a matter of perception really and truly confuses me.

To some extent this may stem from my cultural and semantic background, as the two words don't exist as separate concepts in my first and third languages. Some people are trying to artificially introduce something supposedly equivalent to gender in order to discuss the subject—but frankly that confuses me even more. Why do something that only complicates things?

I guess to me, given my background, sex refers to both what my body is and my own inner perception of what I am. The fact that they are incongruent makes me transsexual. The purpose of treatment is to align the two.

To me gender mainly refers to semantics—what other people automatically categorize me as. That—once again to me—includes gender expression, which still gives tons of leeway for everyone to play around with as they want.

I wrote a bit about the subject in earlier posts in the Gender Discussion - reality etc thread. Here's another post that I tried to express my thoughts in from the same thread.

Offline BrightWindow

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Re: Not sure if I am intersex
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2019, 07:58:48 am »
The concept of gender as separate from sex except as a matter of perception really and truly confuses me.

To some extent this may stem from my cultural and semantic background, as the two words don't exist as separate concepts in my first and third languages. Some people are trying to artificially introduce something supposedly equivalent to gender in order to discuss the subject—but frankly that confuses me even more. Why do something that only complicates things?

I guess to me, given my background, sex refers to both what my body is and my own inner perception of what I am. The fact that they are incongruent makes me transsexual. The purpose of treatment is to align the two.

Again, to me gender mainly refers to semantics—what people automatically categorize me as. Including gender expression—which still gives tons of leeway for everyone to play around with.

I wrote a bit about the subject in earlier posts in the Gender Discussion - reality etc thread. Here's another post that I tried to express my thoughts in from the same thread..

I know terminology and so on can be confusing. I am fluent only in English but I can imagine that the differences in your first and third languages would only complicate things further.

I get the general impression that the agreement is that sex refers to the physical whilst gender refers to the social/emoitonal. Ergo:

Physical sex =/= sex identity =/= gender identity =/= gender expression
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Offline Linde

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Re: Not sure if I am intersex
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2019, 12:19:44 pm »
No testing.  I don't have any low T medical issues.
I thought all the time that I did not have those either!


Offline annajamey

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Re: Not sure if I am intersex
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2020, 09:11:03 pm »
For the intersex, does it cause by abnormal hormone secretion?

Offline BrightWindow

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Re: Not sure if I am intersex
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2020, 03:58:17 am »
For the intersex, does it cause by abnormal hormone secretion?
Being intersex can be caused by many things, but having a hormone status that is not distinctly male or female is sometimes present
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