Author Topic: A whole lot of trouble  (Read 1874 times)

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Offline Sarah-Red

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Re: A whole lot of trouble
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2019, 05:00:31 pm »
I have been thinking exactly what you just wrote. Not to the extend that she may hate herself but it's a possibility. You can play a role as good as you want but when you only talk enough to someone on a regular basis, no matter how much you try to keep everything under control, things will come out that make people with a bit of experience already raise a brow or two. I am not saying I am a psychic or something like that, but after pretty much living online the entire last 10 years and working in a business that is actually handled mostly online as well, I have met so many different people, so many experiences that you get a feeling for when someone tells you the truth or tells you a lie. Call it intuition, call it knowing people. I have been very observant of people around me over the last years and met genuine people who started a friendship based on a lie but eventually admitted they lied.

I think, right now might not be the best moment though to confront her with all of that. Even if that will probably be the toughest 2-3 weeks of the year for me, but I have no intention to really ruin her christmas and the holidays. Right now, I am trying to take a bit of a distance without vanishing completely but we also need a bit of time to breathe, trying to focus on other things. I also guess that there is never really the right moment to confront someone with lies, especially when you know that someone deals with a personality disorder where lack of empathy or lack of seeing consequences of their actions is almost a given. But I agree with you, I think I should put everything out in front of her. I am sure this will not end well and I am very very scared of that. Also not entirely sure how I would even approach her with that. Being tactile about that is an extremely difficult thing because I don't want to scare her or hurt her by putting it out. Any advice on how I can approach her and in what way to talk about it? And yes, when it comes to these things, I am totally clumsy :(

Honestly, and this is just me, I would just make sure that she's attentive and ready for something serious. And then you can key important stuff before you get to it. In other words, you say something like 'Listen, there's something really important that I want to talk to you about' And then if she's attentive, you can do the preface , 'it may be bit difficult to talk about , but I want you to know...' and lay that you love her and that no matter what you still want to be there and talk it out, and accept her for who she is.  (etc) .. and then get into it.

That'd just be my approach. I think waiting until after x-mas can make sense. I wouldn't say you need to wait, but if you feel better about that, follow your heart  ;)

Offline SweetViper

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Re: A whole lot of trouble
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2019, 05:09:58 pm »
That said, I'm very intrigued by what serphirah said here:
This is a much more positive idea, and I'm way too pessimistic to think it off the bat, but it seems totally possible, and could explain some things. If this is actually how it is, then that would be great. I'm too skeptical to think it is, but I think the only way to know for sure would be to learn what's actually the case for her.
It would be interesting if you could actually break some of her barriers and let her feel loved for who she really is. That would be the best case scenario really.

It's a bit of a mystery in a way, and I hope that you find out the truth sometime. I'm curious what will happen if you follow your heart.

I barely have an idea what she really went through but from those little hints that I gathered throughout the months that I have gotten closer and closer to her, it sounded like she went through a lot of things that hurt her a lot. It felt a lot of times as if she's not ready for something more intense and that she got scared a lot of times. To be honest, I don't even think I really want to know what she went through because I'm pretty damn sure that it would make me hate people even more than I already do. Lot of things that are going on, I simply don't understand. I see all that hate, trolling, bullying everywhere, people who almost destroy others mentally. I see suicide statistics that are scary to look at and I simply don't understand what this is about. Yes, I have been treated like <poo> by people in the past too, I said terrible things to people when I was angry, when I felt pushed in a corner but ultimately realize, that life is so damn short. The growing lack of respect towards people who are "different" is scary and even if I can't change or save the world, I at least want to make a difference for those few who I am more than glad to have met, people I care for, people that enriched my life.

What Sephirah said is actually quite nailing what I am thinking and feeling. The fear of not wanting to let anyone get close because of past experiences, the expectation of an online relationship being the closest you let someone in, getting scared if something gets more intense, then immediately pulling back to protect yourself from potential harm because a) you started things off with a lie and fear they come out and b) thinking that the SO will react the same way as a lot of other people before him/her reacted towards you. Correct me if I am wrong there but I only start to understand, how difficult it actually is for Trans people. I was never really aware of that because I don't see someone being Trans as something unnormal. I think it's almost a given, that even mother nature sometimes makes a mistake and puts you in the wrong body.

Although I have to say, that my parents were pretty chill about sexual stuff with me ever since. There weren't many Taboo's in our family, my parents were pretty open-minded and we openly talked and talk about these things as my mother has to deal with a lot of people every day, working in a Hotel. I would like to see more people that are "different" having the courage to come out though, showing those narrow-minded people, that this is not the 'new normal' but that it always has been normal. I saw a lot of progress and change in the past few years about that topic as well but not as much as there should be.

Offline Sephirah

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Re: A whole lot of trouble
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2019, 05:19:34 pm »
I barely have an idea what she really went through but from those little hints that I gathered throughout the months that I have gotten closer and closer to her, it sounded like she went through a lot of things that hurt her a lot. It felt a lot of times as if she's not ready for something more intense and that she got scared a lot of times. To be honest, I don't even think I really want to know what she went through because I'm pretty damn sure that it would make me hate people even more than I already do. Lot of things that are going on, I simply don't understand. I see all that hate, trolling, bullying everywhere, people who almost destroy others mentally. I see suicide statistics that are scary to look at and I simply don't understand what this is about. Yes, I have been treated like <poo> by people in the past too, I said terrible things to people when I was angry, when I felt pushed in a corner but ultimately realize, that life is so damn short. The growing lack of respect towards people who are "different" is scary and even if I can't change or save the world, I at least want to make a difference for those few who I am more than glad to have met, people I care for, people that enriched my life.

What Sephirah said is actually quite nailing what I am thinking and feeling. The fear of not wanting to let anyone get close because of past experiences, the expectation of an online relationship being the closest you let someone in, getting scared if something gets more intense, then immediately pulling back to protect yourself from potential harm because a) you started things off with a lie and fear they come out and b) thinking that the SO will react the same way as a lot of other people before him/her reacted towards you. Correct me if I am wrong there but I only start to understand, how difficult it actually is for Trans people. I was never really aware of that because I don't see someone being Trans as something unnormal. I think it's almost a given, that even mother nature sometimes makes a mistake and puts you in the wrong body.

Although I have to say, that my parents were pretty chill about sexual stuff with me ever since. There weren't many Taboo's in our family, my parents were pretty open-minded and we openly talked and talk about these things as my mother has to deal with a lot of people every day, working in a Hotel. I would like to see more people that are "different" having the courage to come out though, showing those narrow-minded people, that this is not the 'new normal' but that it always has been normal. I saw a lot of progress and change in the past few years about that topic as well but not as much as there should be.

You're one of the rare ones, sweetie. And this person is lucky to have you. A lot of people aren't like you, though. Sadly. This person is very likely to have a lot of defence mechanisms put in place. How you feel isn't the norm. Especially for a trans person wanting to connect with someone. We can be subjected to quite extraordinary levels of hate, abuse, and mockery.

People like you.. don't often come around. So it can be hard to trust. If you want to stay with this person, you need to re-assure her it's okay. That you aren't going anywhere. That you don't hate her. That it's okay to be who she is. Take it at a pace you feel comfortable but...yeah, she's gonna be apprehensive.

Offline Sarah-Red

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Re: A whole lot of trouble
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2019, 05:20:36 pm »
'Hurt people hurt people'

The world is filled with insecurity. Aggression and bullying happens because of needing to compensate for it, to feel superior at the expense of someone else, using the hate they feel in themselves and projecting it on someone else.

If you want to understand the complexities more, psychology is definitely an interesting subject.

Correct me if I am wrong there but I only start to understand, how difficult it actually is for Trans people. I was never really aware of that because I don't see someone being Trans as something unnormal. I think it's almost a given, that even mother nature sometimes makes a mistake and puts you in the wrong body.

Although I have to say, that my parents were pretty chill about sexual stuff with me ever since. There weren't many Taboo's in our family, my parents were pretty open-minded and we openly talked and talk about these things as my mother has to deal with a lot of people every day, working in a Hotel. I would like to see more people that are "different" having the courage to come out though, showing those narrow-minded people, that this is not the 'new normal' but that it always has been normal. I saw a lot of progress and change in the past few years about that topic as well but not as much as there should be.

I'm terrified of coming out. Of presenting as female. I havent told a lot of people and already my mom who loves me doesn't understand, thinks it's just an idea I have even though I've told her how important it is inside of me.

I can't stand the idea of all the stares and comments. We're social beings, and the misunderstanding, unacceptance of what's different and not like 'should' be can really take a toll. Sometimes some people think it's ok to judge or go after someone who isn't 'right' in their eyes.

Less people are like that now, of course, but being transgender is still very much misunderstood in a lot of places.
The trans people that have more courage or just don't care about others' thoughts are the ones that end up transitioning.
I'm taking steps to transition (only those that I'm ready for) because I can't stand it any longer, even if I have no clue how I'm going to make it.

Offline SweetViper

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Re: A whole lot of trouble
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2019, 05:45:45 pm »
This is where my logic really starts to fail though. I know how it feels if you don't like yourself, if you look in the mirror and start to insult yourself because that's what I am going through for almost my entire life but in the end, you are who you are and who are other people to judge you? What gives them the right? I am reading about trans people who are being treated almost as criminals, subject to hate, aggression and everything like that and I can do what I want but I can't wrap my head around it. I would really like to tell these people that judge to look in a mirror themselves and tell others that they are perfect. They are not, nobody is. Imperfections make people so much more interesting. It would be a boring world if everyone was perfect. But I guess it takes someone who got subjected to hate, mockery and abuse to actually tell you, all of you, that you're fine as you are. You shouldn't have to hide because you're different. It's easier said than done, I know. I feel like an alien everytime I step into a bus or a tram. People start to look at you as if you're a freak and the only answer I give them repeatedly is "If you stare longer, your eyes are going to fall out of their sockets!"

I totally understand you though. I know how it feels to be stared at, to be treated like an outcast. I have a friend who is not completely deaf but it gets worse. People don't understand what it means to be deaf so they talk slowly instead of louder. When I was present the last time and I noticed that, I had enough and said "You have to speak louder, not slower, she's not stupid, she just doesn't hear everything" and for a moment there was complete science and you could almost hear the mechanical wheels in the brains of these people trying to process what I said. There are people I know who sit in Wheelchairs. They don't need to felt pity for, they need to get helped. Saying sorry to them about their condition won't get them anywhere. Adapt towards their disability, give a helping hand and have fun and if you're cool they'll take you on the wheelie ride of your life. If I see people who mock those that are disabled, that are different, that have to comment and I have enough, I don't have a problem to stand up and tell them, that they can shove their comments where the sun doesn't shine. Courage doesn't hurt people, not having courage to stand up does though.

Meanwhile I really don't care anymore what people may think of me. If they have to bully and mock, I know who the weaker one is. If they end up being in a <bad> situation at some point, they can't expect to be treated nicely. And that is a basic rule that everyone should live by : Treat others the same way you want to be treated. Don't expect me to be a nice person to you when you have to bully and mock someone who's different. Do I risk to get punched or subject myself to physical harm for standing up for others? Yes, I do but it's for a good cause. And if I have to catch one to protect someone I care for, then please, hit the other side as well. That is something that I really miss in our society nowadays, people who are having the courage to stand up and speak up.

Offline Sarah-Red

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Re: A whole lot of trouble
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2019, 05:58:33 pm »
This is where my logic really starts to fail though. I know how it feels if you don't like yourself, if you look in the mirror and start to insult yourself because that's what I am going through for almost my entire life but in the end, you are who you are and who are other people to judge you? What gives them the right? I am reading about trans people who are being treated almost as criminals, subject to hate, aggression and everything like that and I can do what I want but I can't wrap my head around it. I would really like to tell these people that judge to look in a mirror themselves and tell others that they are perfect. They are not, nobody is. Imperfections make people so much more interesting. It would be a boring world if everyone was perfect. But I guess it takes someone who got subjected to hate, mockery and abuse to actually tell you, all of you, that you're fine as you are. You shouldn't have to hide because you're different. It's easier said than done, I know. I feel like an alien everytime I step into a bus or a tram. People start to look at you as if you're a freak and the only answer I give them repeatedly is "If you stare longer, your eyes are going to fall out of their sockets!"

I totally understand you though. I know how it feels to be stared at, to be treated like an outcast. I have a friend who is not completely deaf but it gets worse. People don't understand what it means to be deaf so they talk slowly instead of louder. When I was present the last time and I noticed that, I had enough and said "You have to speak louder, not slower, she's not stupid, she just doesn't hear everything" and for a moment there was complete science and you could almost hear the mechanical wheels in the brains of these people trying to process what I said. There are people I know who sit in Wheelchairs. They don't need to felt pity for, they need to get helped. Saying sorry to them about their condition won't get them anywhere. Adapt towards their disability, give a helping hand and have fun and if you're cool they'll take you on the wheelie ride of your life. If I see people who mock those that are disabled, that are different, that have to comment and I have enough, I don't have a problem to stand up and tell them, that they can shove their comments where the sun doesn't shine. Courage doesn't hurt people, not having courage to stand up does though.

Meanwhile I really don't care anymore what people may think of me. If they have to bully and mock, I know who the weaker one is. If they end up being in a <not allowed> situation at some point, they can't expect to be treated nicely. And that is a basic rule that everyone should live by : Treat others the same way you want to be treated. Don't expect me to be a nice person to you when you have to bully and mock someone who's different. Do I risk to get punched or subject myself to physical harm for standing up for others? Yes, I do but it's for a good cause. And if I have to catch one to protect someone I care for, then please, hit the other side as well. That is something that I really miss in our society nowadays, people who are having the courage to stand up and speak up.

There are tons of people who do have the courage, and stand up, or feel like you and try to make things better. It's awesome that you are how you are. .

But there IS negativity and judgment in the world. It's just a reality. And there are those that are hurt or weakened and don't have the courage. That's a reality as well. It's something you have to accept. Doesn't mean not working towards better and spreading goodness. It's what the world needs :)

Those people who bully were often mistreated in their childhood somewhere. They need goodness as well, but they may have barriers to them to protect themselves. They may take it out on others to make themselves better. Some don't bully but have loads of problems and it spills on others, like you might know.

These are just things to accept and work with, as you can.
I don't have the courage and confidence I used to have. I'm hurt, I'm scared, and I'm trying my best just to feel ok and find hope for some things. I need help, and if if no one can provide it, I just need to learn to help myself until I feel more able. The world isn't perfect. You do what you can. It can lead to more, though.

Offline SweetViper

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Re: A whole lot of trouble
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2019, 06:21:09 pm »
There are tons of people who do have the courage, and stand up, or feel like you and try to make things better. It's awesome that you are how you are. .

But there IS negativity and judgment in the world. It's just a reality. And there are those that are hurt or weakened and don't have the courage. That's a reality as well. It's something you have to accept. Doesn't mean not working towards better and spreading goodness. It's what the world needs :)

Those people who bully were often mistreated in their childhood somewhere. They need goodness as well, but they may have barriers to them to protect themselves. They may take it out on others to make themselves better. Some don't bully but have loads of problems and it spills on others, like you might know.

These are just things to accept and work with, as you can.
I don't have the courage and confidence I used to have. I'm hurt, I'm scared, and I'm trying my best just to feel ok and find hope for some things. I need help, and if if no one can provide it, I just need to learn to help myself until I feel more able. The world isn't perfect. You do what you can. It can lead to more, though.

I got bullied ever since I had my first day in school, for various reasons. I have never been regarded as normal, not by people surrounding me. And those that got bullied should know a lot better how much it actually hurts. I know that a majority of criminals had a terrible childhood and problems to process what happened to them. I have lost friends to suicide because of their own experiences. I have lost friends to drugs and all of that. We have a lot and lot more of psychologists and therapists over here, all of them are booked out months and months ahead. If anyone here needs immediate help, they need to harm themselves to get admitted to psychiatry for psychological help.

I don't even know what to tell you, Sarah. I don't know you at all but all I can say is, have the courage. You see all these people in here who go through the same as you do. They can be the support, help and aid you need. Even if that's just an online thing. Don't let people discourage you from what THEY think is normal or not. They aren't the ones to live your life, you are the one who lives your life. I know it's tough, I live a life of being different daily, even if I am cis and knowing how people treat me, I only can imagine how it must be for you.

Another thing that I think is necessary and is actually being approach is people being actively educated about gender identity in general. There should be a lot more of that being taught in school and university. People need to be made aware of that being a completely normal thing. The acceptance of imperfections coming in many different facettes. Again, nobody is perfect. Personally, I am not giving up on hope that this paradigm-shift will take place but it needs the power and unity of people, working together, to achieve that. Just like the Fridays For Future movement kicked off, I think that other equally important movements will gain momentum. That's why it's important not to hide it but try to connect in places just like here

Offline Sephirah

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Re: A whole lot of trouble
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2019, 06:28:24 pm »
This is where my logic really starts to fail though. I know how it feels if you don't like yourself, if you look in the mirror and start to insult yourself because that's what I am going through for almost my entire life but in the end, you are who you are and who are other people to judge you? What gives them the right? I am reading about trans people who are being treated almost as criminals, subject to hate, aggression and everything like that and I can do what I want but I can't wrap my head around it.

No, see, it's slightly different for trans people, hon. It's not like body dysmorphia. Where you wish a part of who you are could look better. Where you look at yourself and wish you could be thinner, or more handsome/pretty, or that your... erm... bits could be better. It's similar but also different.

Speaking only for myself here, so you might get an idea... I don't hate my body, I hate that it's mine. Anyone else who had it I'd be like okay, that dude is average. He's no adonis, but no quasimodo either. I'm sure he's a very nice person.

The thing with trans people, and why I suspect we get so much hate... it's not so much down to us, it's down to people seeing the people we are and not understanding why someone would want to be that person. A good deal of it is down to dudebros not "getting" why a "bro" would ever want to be a woman. To a lot of men, women are seen as the weaker sex. As unfortunate as it is, a good deal of people never got dragged out of the 18th century, where a woman's place was in the home, making dinner and cleaning the silverware like a good little housewife. And some of these people just can't get it through their heads why a big strong guy would want to "be" one of these little women. It emasculates them, makes them feel like it's a blemish on their own personal honor. So they hate it, and hate any trans woman who embodies the thing which makes them feel less manly.

That's why they take it out on us.

A good deal of women, I suspect, feel threatened. Like we're making it up and trying it on just to get into female spaces. They don't feel we're legitimate. So we get hate from that side too.

It's not quite as simple as just hating the way we look, sweetie. A lot of it comes from hating how we've been thrust into the world, and been forced to fit into a hole in society we don't fit into. We're square pegs being shoved into round holes. And however hard we try, we don't fit. That's a very lonely experience. And growing up it can be something that trans people come to almost expect. That no one understands why we feel the way we do, and nothing we say can make them.

Offline Sarah-Red

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Re: A whole lot of trouble
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2019, 06:47:40 pm »
All I know is that most people can go around in society and even if they have their flaws they can still feel like they fit in enough and have their place, for the most part. I feel like I 'fit in' as a guy, but then I don't live my truth. And if I try to live it, I fall into the cracks and don't feel like I fit in. It's like feeling squeezed by two walls closing in on me.

I don't have that courage right now. I feel more at peace with myself from deciding to slow down and not go for it. As much as I want to live presenting as female. I'm just not there yet. I have to take care of my mental-emotional state too. I want to feel good in society. Maybe I'll be able to feel braver or like I have a place at some point.

Offline SweetViper

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Re: A whole lot of trouble
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2019, 07:11:32 pm »
And this is where I strongly disagree, at least with this idea of woman being the weaker sex because women most definitely aren't weaker. Women give birth, women carry the weight most of the time. A man would be absolutely nothing without a woman, not even alive. If we leave current scientific advancements out of the picture for a moment, considering possibilities for pregnancy etc, everyone that thinks somehow logical has to agree, that a female, when it comes to literally all life is the stronger part.

I am actually glad that I took the time to write my first post here because just from these few replies, I am starting to learn quite a lot. I am shocked about how you describe how you are treated, I am impressed how you can write about that here, how you explain things. It helps to understand why things have developed in the way that they did. I also understand, where the mistrust is coming from, why someone gets so incredibly defensive, why there are fears.

The more I am reading what you write, the more I can say that I have a lot of respect for you because true strength is actually speaking out about exactly what people consider is weak. It takes tons and tons of strength to actually come out and say "look, I identify as the other gender". It is not strength, to talk down to people, it is strength if you can say what you believe you are. It's the same with this screwed up picture, that a man isn't allowed to cry, that a man shouldn't do this or that because that's considered weak. It's super easy to sell yourself as the man of everyone's dreams but it's extremely hard and difficult to admit weaknesses, to show flaws, to make yourself vulnerable towards other people by showing them what your weak points are. A lot of men can't show that they are depressed. Being told to "stop crying, you're a man" is such a stupid thing and yet it happens everywhere.

You are a lot lot stronger than you even realize, finding the strength and courage to actually do what you do, starting with hormone therapy, starting to dress differently, all these things. That deserves the highest levels of respect and not people talking down on you. Those that do are the ones who are weak, not those that support you in what you do.

There is a lot and lot more educational work that has to be done, educate people on what the implications are, how it feels to be trans, even how it feels to be intersex. Many still believe that sexuality is a choice, as if any of you were voluntarily chosing a life filled with hatred, abuse, mockery and bullying. Everyone that is rather sane can't say that that has to do something with choice, because it isn't. The same thing with females thinking you're trying to invade female spaces. Why does it always sound to me as if there is some kind of constant competition going on? Amongst people in general. What do they think are they going to win by "competing" ?

A lot of people meanwhile realized, that there isn't just black and white, but that there are shades as well. And that doesn't just count for normal day things, that counts for gender as well. There's not just male or female, there are a lot of things in between and all of them are equally valid but, like I said, that will take a lot more of educational work until that starts to sink in peoples brains. Putting people in boxes has never worked out, that's what history tells us. Putting people in boxes leads to a lot of pain in many ways.

Offline Sarah-Red

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Re: A whole lot of trouble
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2019, 07:31:00 pm »
Men don't 'actively' think that women are the weaker sex, it's something passed along in attitudes and conditioning.
They (especially jocky types) discourage or even mock each other for femininity. It doesn't necessarily mean they see women as inferior, but that men shouldn't be like that, indirectly perceiving it as weak and otherwise. And like you said, preventing men from showing certain emotions, which is horrible, actually.
It's been in society and still affects masculine culture greatly.

It's nice that you're gaining from talking here ;)
I like some of what you said, even if I'm not going to comment on it specifically. I've been sitting here long enough :P

There's insecurity in the world. It leads to feeling threatened, intimidated. People built walls, or push away some people they don't understand. It's unfortunate, but it's definitely a big thing that I hope will heal somehow.

You're a lot more open minded than a lot of people. It's good that there's people like that. I do want to focus on the people that are like that, and can accept more and know it makes sense that there isn't just black and white. But like other insecure people, my mind tends towards wondering how I'm going to deal with those that aren't. It's like worry, it doesn't serve us, but a lot of people worry :P

Hope all goes well all around, and with your friend. I look to hearing how that goes. ttyl :)

Offline SweetViper

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Re: A whole lot of trouble
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2019, 04:04:03 am »
Worry is actually what kept and still kind of keeps me from doing more myself. I know that I am having a lot of difficulties with going out in public, much like you, not knowing what people might think or might not. There are periods where I'm thinking "Just f... it, I'm going to do it" just to regret it a bit later because you receive those alienating looks again. I know that the situations can only partially be compared, but I definitely understand where you're coming from.

Right now, the relationship can't be saved anymore and I doubt it ever will. I already kind of hinted, that I know something but I haven't been specific yet, wanting to see what kind of reaction I get but that was quite defensive as well. At the moment I believe that it's best to take some distance for the duration of the upcoming holidays as we both have a family and I don't want to spend it being depressed even more than now. My uncertainty about what might happend when I put the cards on the table though grows but it doesn't help anyone really to just keep pretending that "it's okay" because it's not.

It's also a matter of personal experience. If you never or barely ever met someone that isn't really phased by the fact that you're trans, it can come as a big surprise if you're being confronted by someone who knows and still stays with you and accepts you just as you are. Sadly enough, negative experience seem to stick to you a lot longer than positive ones. No matter how much love you receive by someone, you will never fully trust them, when the rest of your life consisted of being mocked and bullied.

In my case, I suffer from severe separation anxiety. As a child I was abandoned and detached from my mother against my will and have been chasing for attaching to someone that would love me as much as a mother loves her child. With every breakup, with every time I have to detach that fear gets even worse which doesn't make relationships an easy thing to deal with. The longer you are with someone, the bigger grows the fear of being left, no matter how much you're told you're being loved. It's actually a reason, why being honest from the get-go is so important, no matter how you meet someone. People just don't realize most of the time, what's the history of your significant other and knowing that people increasingly suffer from personality disorders makes that whole thing even more difficult.

Offline Linde

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Re: A whole lot of trouble
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2019, 10:46:13 am »
how it feels to be trans, even how it feels to be intersex.
Being intersex is mistakenly very often thrown into the trans spectrum, but in reality, has nothing to do with being trans or not.  Some intersex condition (such as the one I have), force us to go the trans route to be able to live the way we were meant to live.  Other people who are intersex, are pretty happy with their life.  Some intersex conditions, like the one I have, makes us into the woman with the male genitalia, ready for any carnival show, others can't be identified without medical examination, but all of them have a certain influence on our entire life, and we cannot escape them.  The same surgery trans women get would make my genitalia right, but I still would not be able to get children, because most intersex people cannot reproduce, while trans men and trans women can reproduce if they plan for this.
If your friend is intersex, she has another level of problems sitting on her shoulders, and it is almost impossible to explain to others, how it feels to be intersex.  I, for example, had no gender identity for most of my life, because I was force into a gender role that was never meant to fit me.  Only to go the route of being transgender provided the medical means I need to leave this unfitting to me gender roll.
If your friend would have an intersex condition on top of being transgender, she might be so scared to reveal this that it takes a long time to overcome this fear!
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 04:25:03 pm by Linde »


Offline Sarah-Red

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Re: A whole lot of trouble
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2019, 12:23:03 pm »
Worry is actually what kept and still kind of keeps me from doing more myself. I know that I am having a lot of difficulties with going out in public, much like you, not knowing what people might think or might not. There are periods where I'm thinking "Just f... it, I'm going to do it" just to regret it a bit later because you receive those alienating looks again. I know that the situations can only partially be compared, but I definitely understand where you're coming from.

Right now, the relationship can't be saved anymore and I doubt it ever will. I already kind of hinted, that I know something but I haven't been specific yet, wanting to see what kind of reaction I get but that was quite defensive as well. At the moment I believe that it's best to take some distance for the duration of the upcoming holidays as we both have a family and I don't want to spend it being depressed even more than now. My uncertainty about what might happend when I put the cards on the table though grows but it doesn't help anyone really to just keep pretending that "it's okay" because it's not.

It's also a matter of personal experience. If you never or barely ever met someone that isn't really phased by the fact that you're trans, it can come as a big surprise if you're being confronted by someone who knows and still stays with you and accepts you just as you are. Sadly enough, negative experience seem to stick to you a lot longer than positive ones. No matter how much love you receive by someone, you will never fully trust them, when the rest of your life consisted of being mocked and bullied.

In my case, I suffer from severe separation anxiety. As a child I was abandoned and detached from my mother against my will and have been chasing for attaching to someone that would love me as much as a mother loves her child. With every breakup, with every time I have to detach that fear gets even worse which doesn't make relationships an easy thing to deal with. The longer you are with someone, the bigger grows the fear of being left, no matter how much you're told you're being loved. It's actually a reason, why being honest from the get-go is so important, no matter how you meet someone. People just don't realize most of the time, what's the history of your significant other and knowing that people increasingly suffer from personality disorders makes that whole thing even more difficult.

I'm sorry to hear that. I guess it might not be good to hint at it. It'd be better to be in a place where she can be attentive and know it's something important you want to talk about. IF she can't even get to that place, then it makes it very difficult to lay out the rest of what you want to say.

I understand that sometimes we want to attach to someone, but she's not someone who can be there for you and give you the love that you really want. It's like the relationships where a woman stays with a man that treats her badly, when she reallly wants his love. Why go or stay with someone that won't provide what you're actually looking for?

I'm poly to some degree though, so in my view I see nothing wrong with you pursuing some love with her, so long as you don't set yourself up, that you don't rely on her for what your heart is yearning most. She's very far from stable love. I'm sure you know that. Don't let this relationship skew your outlook of love anyway, you deserve love too. It's ok to want love. I yearn for love as well. Just take care of yourself ok? :) <3

Nothing wrong with some small messages, but it probably is a good idea to take some time and get distracted and enjoy the holidays. Things can settle a little and you can pick back up and see where things are and go after.
good luck and enjoy life as you can ;)

Offline SweetViper

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Re: A whole lot of trouble
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2019, 01:22:22 pm »
First of @ Linde : I didn't mean to insult anyone in any way. What I wanted to say with my statement is, there is so much diversity out there, not just amongst humans but amongst all biological beings and that everyone of us, no matter who, has their own problems that they have to carry through life. I don't even know how to word it so it doesn't sound offensive but everyone, small or tall, thick or thin or whatever you can think of, is unique, is special. We have 70-80, maybe 90 years to live and yet we spend most of the time thinking in black or white, putting people in boxes, judging them, even about things they can't change themselves. I'd rather talk about someone as a unique person, than to think of them as male, female, trans, intersex, gay, lesbian, bi or whatever. I often feel like I don't even belong in this kind of society because knowing how far advanced science is, how far we are with technology already, yet we judge people for what they are on a daily basis is totally contradicting the whole rest. I'm already having an issue with people treating others as if they're citizens of a lower class and don't even want to think about how much worse and how much darker this can get. It just feels so dead wrong. I am learning quite a lot here about mindsets and headspace, about experiences and about what a struggle a non-binary life is.

And talking about headspace... I can't even explain how extremely difficult it is for me to let go and to detach. And I know that, if I tell someone about that fear, they'll laugh at me and call me nuts. But having been detached from my mother against my will when I was a baby, everytime a relationship ends, it feels like as if this subconscious detaching when I was a baby comes back. I cling to the tiniest bit of hope, where other people already would have given up and said f... it. To some extend, this experience is similar to when you have to face that someone passed away. It's difficult to put those feelings into words because most people don't understand them anyway, so I know how you feel, if you can't express certain things. They are just there and you hope people just accept that and accept you for who you are.

I kind of feel as if she's fighting an uphill battle with barely any support so she dives into fantasyworlds to forget about the troubles of life, simply because she thinks that nobody can help or support her. There are those brief moments when she says things that make you think, moments where you feel as if the truth wants to break out of her but then she realizes quickly that she shouldn't, does a U-Turn and starts to get defensive and even aggressive. That's why I started my opening post, saying that she suffers from ASPD. I have met people before who were barely aware of their Antisocial Personality Disorder (Sociopathy) but I know they eventually realized they needed some treatment for it. But when ASPD and several other "issues" come together, it gets increasingly difficult.

Do I think I can have a relationship with her? No, I think that all hope is lost there but I can still be a caring friend, someone that lends her a helping hand, someone who's there. I have been single for many many years, wasn't looking for anything but it happened. I rejected others that came close before, being scared of getting emotionally hurt again after my last breakup having almost ended in a catastrophe. And secretly, I am longing for so much love and just stability, someone to who I can dedicate my life so I made her the center of my universe. Was that a mistake? I don't know but I can't get rid of the feeling that she needs help and secretly is looking for it, but doesn't want to appear as 'weak'

Offline Linde

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Re: A whole lot of trouble
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2019, 04:35:33 pm »
I don't know but I can't get rid of the feeling that she needs help and secretly is looking for it, but doesn't want to appear as 'weak'
If you have this feeling, why don't you steer her to this forum, and our combined experience in almost all walks of life can help her?


Offline SweetViper

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Re: A whole lot of trouble
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2019, 06:39:11 pm »
If you have this feeling, why don't you steer her to this forum, and our combined experience in almost all walks of life can help her?

Because I did not confront her yet with my findings. She doesn't know that I know and I want to let the holidays pass so she can enjoy them with family before I actually put the cards on the table. I don't want to make it more difficult than it is and I know that holidays like Christmas, spent with family, shouldn't be overshadowed by such things. It's tough for me because I have to wait now a couple of weeks, but rather that than ruin her holidays with it. She has been quite on the defensive side lately so it's better to give it all some rest, for her to breathe and relax, find a moment when she's attentive enough and then, when it's out, guide her here.

Online SheShe

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Re: A whole lot of trouble
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2020, 10:44:39 pm »
Plenty of fish in the sea,,,  stop wasting your time and move on to someone else,

Online SheShe

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Re: A whole lot of trouble
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2020, 10:45:45 pm »
I forgot to add that she is not someone you can trust,,,obviously

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