Topic: You’re Being tempted by the devil

[no-moose]

I just had a horrific coming out conversation with one of my closest friends. I decided to talk with him because I’m needing to build a support network as I begin exploring whether or not I will transition.

I’m fairly certain he spoke out of ignorance - I have doubts that he even knows anyone else who is transgender or even what I mean or feel by it... never the less his first reaction was that he was afraid I’m being tempted by the devil because “you have a perfect life” - which is even more disheartening to hear because I had just told him how I had been suicidal just a month ago, and was at my breaking point with repression. I had also told him in the conversation that I feel god might be leading me to transition, and that that injection of hope felt absolutely life giving.

I don’t know what to do now. I feel like I’ve lost a friend. He keeps texting and I haven’t responded for a week. If it weren’t for the fact that he’s been one of my closest 2 or 3 friends on the planet, I wouldn’t be worrying. But I’m not sure what to do. My therapist suggested sending an email. I’m just worried it will continue to get worse...

Any advice? Encouragement? Reassurance? Wisdom?
Theological treatise?
I know this is a real trans experience thing to go through and that it’s probably just the beginning...but it fees so awful because this was someone I thought would be “on my team” no matter what.

Thanks


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[Misato]

My grandma did the same to me when I tried to transition circa 2004. It fed into my decision at the time to abandon my efforts. From that choice I advise staying your course cause in my case it only delayed the inevitable by 6 years.

As you're leaning toward, when I still believed in god I ended up coming to hold that transition was just a part of the plan god had for me. This is quite the journey, and you're going to learn *a lot*. *A lot* that to this day I don't know how one can learn any other way. It's entirely within the realm of reason that the lessons ahead are part of the plan god has in store for you. As they are lessons that will inform your future interactions with the world to do god's good work.

However you phrase your response I think you'd do well to come from a happier connotation like that. The old "god made a mistake," line I think did a lot of harm for our community that may have even enabled the accusation(s) of satan being involved. Well. That and the Old Testament. Deuteronomy did a number on me for a long time cause when I believed in god, I believed. Anyway people are born with all kinds of stuff different than standard issue. The idea that somehow in that messy, organic chaos of conception to birth gender being crossed with sex would be strictly excluded is hard to believe.

It's still a lousy situation to be in. *hugs* And good luck.

[Rakel]

Tempted by the devil? No, not me.

I was listening to other people for many years. This just made me feel worse. I prayed to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. While they did not specifically come out and verbally tell me what to do, paths seem to open the way for me to transition. Even with those paths open, I was still reluctant to enter onto this path to fully transition.

After much study of the New Testament, I came to the conclusion that God really has no issue with our physical body. He is only concerned with our spiritual self.

[TheWomanWithinMe]

no-moose:

My condolences on your current struggles.  It appears your conversation hit upon two different topics, one highlighting your deep depression and the other revealing that you are transgender and are contemplating transitioning.  A trained professional would be hard pressed to know how to handle such a conversation and provide just the right support you need in the short or long term.

People can sometimes say the most outlandish or unhelpful things in a very difficult conversation. They may also lack the skill to carry on a supportive conversation with another person.  They may also believe in things that run contrary to your beliefs.  Your friend seems to exhibit all three.

Best friends should look for ways to make each others lives incrementally better, if that doesn't occur you are simply acquaintances. Acquaintances don't hold each other accountable for anything meaningful whereas best friends do.

You place great value on what you have long thought of as a close friendship and feel angst about the possible loss of it. That doesn't seem like the kind of behavior one would exhibit if they were under the control of some evil influence.  I suspect that if you could observe all the transgender folks throughout the world you would find them no more "evil" than cis gender folks and many might be pillars of their community.

You aren't choosing to be transgender, you have been one from the first few months of your development. It's a situation entirely out of your control to change. Being "you" is just as natural as your "friend" or the other billions of humans being "themselves".  The difference is cisgender folks became "themselves" at a very early age and we discovered our "true" selves much later in life.  Why anyone would fault us for wanting to be as close to our "true" selves (however far one wants to pursue such an endeavor) as humanly possible boggles the mind.





 

[Maid Marion]

Sorry to hear that.  Who will be helpful when you transition is totally unpredictable.  We don't know what issues our friends have.   Sometimes they are deep secrets that they have never told anyone.

Marion

[Rachel Montgomery]

@Rakel

After much study of the New Testament, I came to the conclusion that God really has no issue with our physical body. He is only concerned with our spiritual self.

That is one of the possibilities I have been exploring.  Can you reference specific verses that you contemplated in forming that conclusion? 

[Rachel Montgomery]

... The difference is cisgender folks became "themselves" at a very early age and we discovered our "true" selves much later in life.  Why anyone would fault us for wanting to be as close to our "true" selves (however far one wants to pursue such an endeavor) as humanly possible boggles the mind.

I have known who I was at an age at least as early as that of any cisgender person around.  The world hasn't known who and what I was, but I did.  I hid who and what I was because it was made clear to me that being the way I am (the way I have always known myself to be) was unacceptable. 

I think a LOT of people live their whole lives not REALLY ever being themselves.  I doubt that transgender people are the only people who feel pressure not to show the world who they are (for fear of rejection).  Repressions is more widespread than you imagine.

[Zumbagirl]

One issue I ran into during my transition was people trying to talk me out of SRS surgery. I didn't get any real pushback from people saying I was in the grips of the devil. I had people say to me that if I got this operation I would be doing bad things with strange men. It turns out that the people who were saying that to me were actually doing bad things with strange men. But it wasn't my modus operandi.

[Rakel]

That is one of the possibilities I have been exploring.  Can you reference specific verses that you contemplated in forming that conclusion?

No, not really. I have never been a chapter and verse sort of person. I rely on study and understanding.

When the Holy Spirit leads me in one direction, I always ask if that direction is consistent with the rest of the New Testament. 

[Faith]

I don't have specifics any more regarding bible verses. I researched many months ago, hmm early 2018 now, for the basis of the abominable sin that we are charged with. I found a few direct causes for misinformation ...

people don't study the bible on their own, they listen to other people interpretation of what they read. Bible study is a personal experience, don't leave it to others.

people study the wrong bible. Yes, they differ greatly. If your bible translation is too recent it is tainted by "american" so-called christians that changed or took the extreme of the translations to make the worse possible out of it.
-- a couple come to mind, I'll paraphrase. "Man shall not lie with another man as with a woman" the original direct translation is "man shall not lie with a boy as with a woman".. The first is one of the most used to invalidate male homosexuality.
-- ritually unclean. there are a few sections that reference this. The one dealing with women is due to her monthly dues. Thus if you do anything together during this time you must also set yourself apart for a time to be clean. The 'unclean' part is simple cleanliness of the time through ignorance where they are set apart.  Why mention this? because the same original word is used elsewhere to describe men interacting yet instead of ritually unclean it is translated to it being an abomination.

people take the stories provided in the bible as the word of God when they are the stories of men and their own beliefs and actions, it doesn't make them right or mandated by God at all. The Bible is a story book written by men (as in male) during their specific time periods and put in print after many verbal retellings .. then translated. You simply cannot take it literally.  People I know have told me that God guided the hands of those whom wrote in the bible and that my thoughts are from satan tempting me. I counter with, Who is to say that satan did not taint the thoughts of men when they wrote and/or translated the bible? they counter with .. he didn't. Really? My thoughts can be tainted but not those of men that lived many generations ago/ something not right there.
-- one story that comes to mind is where a 'celebration' was held at a temple in worship of a goddess (I believe, my memory fails). the celebration was basically and orgy or men and women all mixed and who cares. God supposedly stepped in and punished them all. Most renditions that I have heard is that they were punished for their celebratory activities yet if you actually read the early verses, he punished them for worshiping a false god.

If you really want as close a translation as possible, research clobber phrases and the different translations. Also remember, Jesus reached out to all with love and compassion and not condemnation.  If you boil down all bibles to their core you get: Love, tolerance, non-judgement, etc. So in reality, when we are judged by others, they are sinning against us.

point of fact, my wife was devout against homosexuality, trans as well for that matter, until I came out. that's when she started researching on her own (without my prompting) and has since determined that she was lied to her whole life about what is in the bible.

sorry, I could ramble on and on and on. Really the best thing to do is ignore what people say and research for yourself the true meanings behind the stories (or as true as we can get after all this time). Always remember .. men wrote and translated the bible, not God.

This entire post is of my thoughts and opinions. I have no desire to defend or discourse or change your own thoughts or opinions. I simply presented them for your reading to ponder or discard as you will.

[Rachel Montgomery]

-- a couple come to mind, I'll paraphrase. "Man shall not lie with another man as with a woman" the original direct translation is "man shall not lie with a boy as with a woman".. The first is one of the most used to invalidate male homosexuality.

That isn’t correct.  The word actually used in that verse is the Hebrew “zakar” (זָכַר) which is best translated as “male”.  The Hebrew word is from the Arabic word for “penis” also pronounced “zakar”.

[Rachel Montgomery]

But, to your larger point, I agree and appreciate that these are the writings of men, written in a different culture, in a different language, and literally handed down by verbal recitation for hundreds, perhaps more, years before being written.  And, I have, therefore, given up any hope of ever knowing exactly what was being communicated.  Also, I am always suspicious of man inserting his own ideas and attributing them to God.  So, your point was well made, even if one example wasn’t 100%. 

To work out as best as I can, I have a Hebrew/Greek translation study Bible, a cultural reference Bible, and a couple of other study Bibles.  I also have multiple translations, NIV, NKJV, ESV, some of which scholars say are good at direct word for word meaning, and others that make more of an effort to convey the original meaning, even if they have to diverge from literal translation.  I read each chapter in all three Bibles, and sometimes refer to my Hebrew copy of the Torah, or Young’s Literal translation.

I am sincerely making an effort to find God if God is there.  But, based on some verses in the Bible, God chooses who to open the eyes of and who to leave to their own.  If God doesn’t reveal Himself to me, I may never believe.  I am knocking.  If there is anyone there hopefully the door will be opened. 

[Faith]

That isn’t correct.  The word actually used in that verse is the Hebrew “zakar” (זָכַר) which is best translated as “male”.  The Hebrew word is from the Arabic word for “penis” also pronounced “zakar”.

quite true and one of the variations that I have encountered. Not being versed myself in any other language, and barely English for that matter, which variation of what I have researched as holding the most accuracy is beyond me. I did what I could help settle my own thoughts and there I have succeeded. My reference for that particular passage came from several places. I do have one link available (https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2020/10/richardson-05102020 which cross links to this page https://www.forgeonline.org/blog/2019/3/8/what-about-romans-124-27 ) and it isn't the first one of that conclusion that i had found.

I wish I had kept all the reference links that I encountered. Still, which of those to adhere to is also up to the individual since it is still the opinion of others as to what was intended when initially written and then translated.

So, I follow my heart and try to greet myself and others with love no matter how they view things for above all, love is what is taught. Nope, it is not easy and I fail a lot but I am trying.

[Rachel Montgomery]

I read your articles.  They are translating from Greek, and interpreting it as boy.  But, the original Torah was written in Hebrew, so it makes more sense to go directly to the Hebrew language and translate that I to English.  Zarah is not “boy” in Hebrew, it is either “male” (in Hebrew) or “penis” in Arabic.  The Bible wasn’t written in Arabic, so the most reasonable translation is “male”. 

It seems to me that someone in your cited articles is TRYING to misinterpret the verse to satisfy their own world view. 

[Faith]

no disagreement there. everything I read I took as "is this real/true or justification?" All I know is that, in extreme generalizations, people from different backgrounds and/or different 1st languages will knowingly or unknowingly twist the context.

so, I ended up with:

My life is mine. My faith is mine. My love and and sin is between me and God, no one else.

and I don't argue about it. and very rarely post anywhere in regards to it.

[Evienne]

Could you try talking to him about your beliefs over your feelings?
Perhaps if he's been trying to message you for a week he still cares? Or the fact that you two have been friends for a long time. He may be more understanding if you two had a serious talk about it.
There are people who will have different religious beliefs about these topics but still remain a friend to the person. I have a friend like that.
Just seems like not talking at all will guarantee losing them.