Author Topic: Why Sen. Mike Lee opposes transgender women competing in women’s sports  (Read 966 times)

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Offline Iztaccihuatl

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Re: Why Sen. Mike Lee opposes transgender women competing in women’s sports
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2021, 07:27:55 pm »
I don't want to exclude people but can we do this scientifically instead of the gut instinct of a judge? We can all sit here and day dream all day long but ramming things down the publics throat is not the way to win the day. We can't even get 2 people on here to agree with what should be the correct approach and we should know far more than anyone else. Is the trans community afraid to step up to the plate and provide the scientific observation needed to either prove or disprove the capability to compete? If the results state that sex separation is necessary can we live with that as an outcome? Or is the idea so intellectually weak that we need to rely on judges since no one can answer the question therefore we'll let people in black robes make it for us?

The trans community as I see it in 2020 has been hijacked by people who are not trans and are dictating the agenda all while lacking whole universes of critical thinking or at least failing to acknowledge the law of unintended consequences.
One scientist who is also a trans woman and who is working in this field is Joanna Harper. She was, btw, part of the group that worked out the current IOC guidelines. For an interesting read just google her opinion piece in the Washington Post from April 2015 titled "Do transgender athletes have an edge?" (I am not supposed to include links to external web pages here, so you just need to google it).

Another very good read on the subject (although it is about 10 years old) is the NCAA's document titled "NCAA Inclusion of Transgender Student-Athletes".

Finally, a very nuanced opinion piece on the subject is Gregg Bloche's "Do transgender athletes have an unfair advantage?", published in The Hill about a year ago. It is not a scientific work (he is a law professor), but it is a good piece on fairness in sports and illustrates why we don't need that kind of legislation.

Offline Iztaccihuatl

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Re: Why Sen. Mike Lee opposes transgender women competing in women’s sports
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2021, 07:40:51 pm »
I think transmen would be excluded from women’s sports not on a sex basis, but on the basis of performance enhancing drugs (testosterone).  If they can’t compete with the boys, they probably aren’t eligible to compete at all.
Trans men usually have to file for a therapeutic use exception for their therapeutic use of testosterone, so they don't get caught up in a doping test. They are more than happy to compete with the boys.

The point I was trying to make was that such legislation by definition has to be either discriminatory on the basis of sex (because it only applies to trans women) or it would force trans men to compete in the women's division (and you can't deny them a therapeutic use exception for a life saving medication).

There was, btw, a case of a trans male high school kid somewhere in Texas who was into wrestling and was forced by the local rules to compete in the girl's division, so this isn't some theoretical stuff I just made up.

Offline Rachel Montgomery

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Re: Why Sen. Mike Lee opposes transgender women competing in women’s sports
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2021, 08:18:44 pm »
And, my point was that they will focus on the taking of and levels of hormones to exclude transmen from competition with women.  And, use the legislation proposed to prevent transwomen from competing with CAIS women. 

It is a matter of “hormones” when that works against the transmale, and a matter of birth sex assignment when that suits their argument.

As for Texas, they have school policy that requires all to compete as their birth sex.

Quote
The University Interscholastic League, a Texas governing body that regulates public school athletics, has been drawn into controversy regarding a policy enacted roughly a year ago through the popular vote of the state’s superintendents and athletic directors.

The policy requires that student-athletes compete in men’s or women’s sports on the basis of the sex listed on their birth certificate, rather than gender identification. Texas is one of only seven states that requires students to present a birth certificate in order to compete.

How long do you think it will be before testosterone is treated as a performance enhancing drug in women athletes in Texas?  My guess is, not long.

Offline Iztaccihuatl

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Re: Why Sen. Mike Lee opposes transgender women competing in women’s sports
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2021, 12:10:10 am »
And, my point was that they will focus on the taking of and levels of hormones to exclude transmen from competition with women.  And, use the legislation proposed to prevent transwomen from competing with CAIS women. 

It is a matter of “hormones” when that works against the transmale, and a matter of birth sex assignment when that suits their argument.

As for Texas, they have school policy that requires all to compete as their birth sex.

How long do you think it will be before testosterone is treated as a performance enhancing drug in women athletes in Texas?  My guess is, not long.

I am fully aware what those types of politicians are capable of proposing, that's why I am strongly arguing for keeping politicians and courts out of the rules of sports.

Offline Zumbagirl

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Re: Why Sen. Mike Lee opposes transgender women competing in women’s sports
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2021, 06:48:42 am »
One scientist who is also a trans woman and who is working in this field is Joanna Harper. She was, btw, part of the group that worked out the current IOC guidelines. For an interesting read just google her opinion piece in the Washington Post from April 2015 titled "Do transgender athletes have an edge?" (I am not supposed to include links to external web pages here, so you just need to google it).

Another very good read on the subject (although it is about 10 years old) is the NCAA's document titled "NCAA Inclusion of Transgender Student-Athletes".

Finally, a very nuanced opinion piece on the subject is Gregg Bloche's "Do transgender athletes have an unfair advantage?", published in The Hill about a year ago. It is not a scientific work (he is a law professor), but it is a good piece on fairness in sports and illustrates why we don't need that kind of legislation.

Opinion pieces are not science. Can't we use real actual science and put the matter to rest? From what I read online the work that Harper is doing is years away from being complete. So why the sense of urgency to overthrow the laws right now other than 'cause I said so'? If the science is on our side then we can say "I told you so" and if not then we owe the rest of the human race an "oops, sorry". I would prefer to be on the side of 'we are backed up with actual science' rather than left wing opinion pieces that are best the meaningless opinions of non-trans people with faux support. My best guess is that when we are talking about teenagers who are actively growing to adulthood there is going to be a real medical problem. This is the heart of the entire issue and the reason why the law should remain in place until there is actual science backing up the claims.

Offline Zumbagirl

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Re: Why Sen. Mike Lee opposes transgender women competing in women’s sports
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2021, 06:55:32 am »
I am fully aware what those types of politicians are capable of proposing, that's why I am strongly arguing for keeping politicians and courts out of the rules of sports.

If you're against courts interfering then are you also saying that the 9th circuit court should punt on the Hecox v Little case currently in front of it?

Offline VchPlz

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Re: Why Sen. Mike Lee opposes transgender women competing in women’s sports
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2021, 09:56:20 am »
All this issue really needs is intelligent legislation on the federal level.

Outright banning transgender individuals from competing isn't the solution, but letting anyone play just because they say they're a female or male isn't the solution either.



Offline Zumbagirl

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Re: Why Sen. Mike Lee opposes transgender women competing in women’s sports
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2021, 05:21:16 pm »
All this issue really needs is intelligent legislation on the federal level.

Outright banning transgender individuals from competing isn't the solution, but letting anyone play just because they say they're a female or male isn't the solution either.

People say, not referring to you here, but they don't want politicians and judges interfering, and here we are asking for politicians to interfere. What happens when you don't get the exact legislation you want? Or laws with gaping loopholes? Or laws that are toothless and easily ignored? What happens when the next batch of politicians roll the law back? Then what?

I just want to say that I am not against trans people from playing in sports, but I think the bar has to be really high and backed with scientific data that can be reproduced and checked. In other words, again I am doing nothing more than hypothesizing here but lets say that after batteries of tests it's found that M2F people who have had orchiectomies or SRS surgery after 2 years can compete in any womens sports activity. Again I say that this is something established after batteries of tests, then the bar should be just a little beyond that. I know that people on the other side of the equation, meaning transitioning right now, won't like it, but they won't be standing in the same shoes they are now in several years. I also feel sorry for the high school teens that won't be able to participate in sports but as I said before it's the price of a gender transition. There's no such thing as a consequence free gender transition.

Offline Rachel Montgomery

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Re: Why Sen. Mike Lee opposes transgender women competing in women’s sports
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2021, 06:36:24 pm »
Maybe they could just make a rule that trans-girls can only compete with women if the transgirl isn't a very good athlete and stands no chance to excel.

Offline Iztaccihuatl

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Re: Why Sen. Mike Lee opposes transgender women competing in women’s sports
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2021, 05:16:08 pm »
People say, not referring to you here, but they don't want politicians and judges interfering, and here we are asking for politicians to interfere. What happens when you don't get the exact legislation you want? Or laws with gaping loopholes? Or laws that are toothless and easily ignored? What happens when the next batch of politicians roll the law back? Then what?

I just want to say that I am not against trans people from playing in sports, but I think the bar has to be really high and backed with scientific data that can be reproduced and checked. In other words, again I am doing nothing more than hypothesizing here but lets say that after batteries of tests it's found that M2F people who have had orchiectomies or SRS surgery after 2 years can compete in any womens sports activity. Again I say that this is something established after batteries of tests, then the bar should be just a little beyond that. I know that people on the other side of the equation, meaning transitioning right now, won't like it, but they won't be standing in the same shoes they are now in several years. I also feel sorry for the high school teens that won't be able to participate in sports but as I said before it's the price of a gender transition. There's no such thing as a consequence free gender transition.

You might want to read Joanna Harper's book "Sporting Gender" (it is on Amazon). It covers not only issues around transgender athletes, but also around intersex athletes. It gives a good introduction of most intersex conditions, covers the history of intersex athletes in women's sports, the history and shortcomings of sex testing that was performed at Olympics and covers the discussions and deliberations they had behind the 2015 IOC guidelines on transgender athletes and the Chand and Semenya cases in front of the international court of arbitration in sports (CAS). It is really worth reading if you are interested in the transgender sports aspect.

If you're against courts interfering then are you also saying that the 9th circuit court should punt on the Hecox v Little case currently in front of it?

When it comes to courts, I have ambivalent thoughts. On the one hand I truly appreciate the corrective nature of courts, who often try to correct legislation that is politically overly ambitious and/or not well thought out, overall judges seem to appreciate the complexities of the issues presented to them and their rulings are often much more nuanced than the original legislation which shows me that once you get to the bottom of an issue, things are not as easy as they look on the surface.

Where I do have an issue with politicians, and therefore by extension judges, getting involved is this: sport is never confined to the local level where an individual lawmaker operates, whether it is the state or county level. There are always state, regional, national and international competitions and any laws regulating sport will leave an unequal playing field by preventing folks who would be eligible to compete on a national level from getting there by starting locally. The reverse is also a concern, just imagine if a national championship is held in a region with anti-trans legislation in place. In this case a trans athlete from out of that jurisdiction cannot compete even though the national governing body considers them eligible. For this reason any rules regarding the participation of trans athletes should come from international governing bodies and the current IOC rules are a good start, since they will be adopted by the world governing bodies of all olympic sports and from there it will trickle down to the national level and so on.

Concerning that particular Idaho case, the court should throw out the legislation in question due to its discriminatory nature, not only towards trans women (the intent of the legislation), but also towards cis women (collateral damage I guess).

Offline Rachel Montgomery

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Re: Why Sen. Mike Lee opposes transgender women competing in women’s sports
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2021, 10:55:19 pm »
One judge writes an opinion.  On appeal, others may concur or dissent. 

Legislative bodies have to negotiate, and try to find consensus among multiple different desires.  It is harder for a group of people to agree on one consistent and limited law, than it is for a single judge to offer her/his opinion.

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