Author Topic: True Feminine Nature?  (Read 613 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline amandam

  • Friend
  • ****
  • Posts: 489
  • Reputation: +5/-0
  • Gender: Female
True Feminine Nature?
« on: June 16, 2021, 10:34:01 am »
On Lynn Conway's site it tells the story that Renee Richards was warned by young post-op women in Paris that she shouldn't transition if she doesn't have the true feminine nature.

Do you think this is a true statement? Or maybe it just applies to young women and not older transitioners? Any thoughts on what a "true feminine nature" is?

Offline Iztaccihuatl

  • Friend
  • ****
  • Posts: 177
  • Reputation: +4/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: True Feminine Nature?
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2021, 11:17:36 am »
I think you need to view this statement in its historic context. Renee Richards had her GRS in the 1970's. At the time the narrative was that transsexuals (the term transgender wasn't in use yet) are all hyper feminine and exclusively romantically interested in men. In that context that statement makes sense as it reflects the prevailing thinking of the time.

However, we have come a long way since then. We now understand that there is more than just the hyper feminine extreme end of the spectrum. Psychologists don't require wearing skirts and dresses 365 days a year and give up any  traits or hobbies with a remotely masculine appearance as a prerequisite before issuing their letters, etc.

So, from today's perspective, I would say this statement is not 100% true anymore. And I don't think there is a difference between younger and older transitioners.

Offline Gertrude

  • Trudie
  • Family
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,004
  • Reputation: +13/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: True Feminine Nature?
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2021, 01:31:25 pm »
It was an opinion, maybe belief that some held at the time. Truth? No. As discussed succinctly above, things change, but I would say it was never true per se, just accepted as fact or truth by some. In Lynn's and Renee's era, it was quite a different world. I was young then. I can't imagine being who I am now and living then. By my estimation, I was born 60 years too early.

Offline Squeaky99

  • Newbie
  • **
  • Posts: 43
  • Reputation: +2/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: True Feminine Nature?
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2021, 01:55:53 pm »
A true feminine nature is what you want it to be.  When I think about what I want my life to be in the future, it's having many of the same interests and doing many of the same activities I do now, just in a body that reflects who I truly am instead of having to play act at masculinity.   

I just want to be a happy integrated Gen X woman.  No more no less
Amy

Offline davina61

  • *
  • Posts: 6,508
  • Reputation: +13/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • The ramblings of an old dear
Re: True Feminine Nature?
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2021, 02:30:16 pm »
Amy , exactly as I have no intension of giving up building hot rods and making steam punk stuff but then there are a lot of females doing that.
a long time coming (out) HRT 12 2017


Jill of all trades mistress of non
Know a bit about everything but not enough to be clever.
I get pushed out of shape and its hard to steer when I get rubber in all 4 gears (Beach Boys ,little deuce coupe)

Offline Sephirah

  • *
  • Posts: 5,658
  • Reputation: +332/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: True Feminine Nature?
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2021, 02:31:01 pm »
The thing is, this still goes on today. People equate female with feminine and assert that to be one you have to be the other. Which is not the case but sometimes people are brought up a certain way. I've had issues with it myself. Liking certain things, doing certain things, being in certain spheres of interest throws up red flags for people. They cannot disentangle gender from just how people are.

Femininity and masculinity are like Yin and Yang. We're at our best when they're in balance. Neither at the extremes. We all have both within us and it's not healthy to focus on one over the other. It's perfectly okay to like whatever you like, no matter who you are. Legions of women would claw your eyes out if you told them that liking hunting, shooting, disassembling engines... heaven knows what else... isn't "womanly". And likewise a whole army of guys would be on your case if you told them that being interested in fashion or interior design wasn't "being a man."

But this is a thing. I see it often. Especially when people first come out. They think they have to embody the ultimate extreme of the gender they're coming out as. Every stereotype in the book, in order to "fit in." And are ashamed of things in their lives which don't fit that profile. That's partly because people around them also subscribe to those stereotypes, I feel, but also because it's an attempt to define themselves and escape things which they feel tie in to their old life.

Over time, I think, people learn that life is balance. At the start it's like a dam breaking. But as time goes on, the river finds its level, and people find it's okay to be who they are. Whoever that is.

Your nature is who you are. And it's okay to have whatever degree of feminine and masculine you have. It may have been a defence mechanism at one point but it holds no water in a modern world. Don't focus on trying to be masculine, feminine, or anywhere in between. Just focus on being. And let the rest fall into place around you.

Offline SarahEL

  • Oh no, I have said too much, I haven't said enough...
  • Family
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 579
  • Reputation: +13/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • That's me in the corner.... That's me in the photo
Re: True Feminine Nature?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2021, 02:39:35 pm »
I think also, just as sexuality is not related to gender neither is masculinity or femininity..
I have know plenty of cis-males who are feminine in their 'nature' but fine with being 'men' and the same with masculine females who are most assuredly women...
One of the issues with 'pushing' the femininity = woman model, is to make men, who otherwise have no issues with gender to seek gender related reasons to their nature and not just be told that 'it's okay to be a feminine guy'... (and vice-a-versa of course)

Oh, life is bigger,  It's bigger Than you and you are not me
The lengths that I will go to.  The distance in your eyes

R.E.M. - Losing My Religion

Offline Sephirah

  • *
  • Posts: 5,658
  • Reputation: +332/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: True Feminine Nature?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2021, 02:44:23 pm »
One of the issues with 'pushing' the femininity = woman model, is to make men, who otherwise have no issues with gender to seek gender related reasons to their nature and not just be told that 'it's okay to be a feminine guy'... (and vice-a-versa of course)

There's a lot of truth to that. Muddying the waters pushes people down paths that, ultimately, they turn back from. I've spoken to several people who assume that because they aren't a "bloke", that means they must be transgender. Only to find out later that they aren't. They just didn't live in a world where people around them accepted guys who were interested in "feminine" things. I think a lot of people get told who they are before they have a chance to figure it out for themselves. Which is a shame.

Offline Rakel

  • Formerly known as Dani
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4,445
  • Reputation: +68/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Rakel@susans.org
Re: True Feminine Nature?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2021, 06:51:25 pm »
On Lynn Conway's site it tells the story that Renee Richards was warned by young post-op women in Paris that she shouldn't transition if she doesn't have the true feminine nature.

Do you think this is a true statement? Or maybe it just applies to young women and not older transitioners? Any thoughts on what a "true feminine nature" is?

Having grown up in that era, I can understand that the young post-op woman was using the terminology of the day. In those days many people had no concept that there are many different gender issues among people of that day. Transitioning was seen as an extreme form of cross dressing. Today we know that this is not true.

I think that the young post-op woman was telling Renee is to not attempt transition unless Renee's mental self image was female, regardless of youth, clothes and make up.

When I was a child, I had a definite female nature. I was bullied and slapped around in an attempt to toughen me up.  The psychologists of that day told me that I just needed a better male role model and I would be just fine. It did not work. I have always had a female nature.




_______________________________________________________________

Retired Pharmacist with over 40 years experience in Hospital and Retail Pharmacies.
I still keep my professional licence active and in good standing.


Online Maid Marion

  • *
  • Posts: 2,190
  • Reputation: +11/-0
Re: True Feminine Nature?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2021, 08:05:05 pm »
I can be as competitive as any guy and cooperative as any girl at the same time!

Marion

Offline Chloe

  • Family
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,416
  • Reputation: +37/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • "Jade" girl slave in "The Badland's" poppy fields!
Re: True Feminine Nature?
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2021, 02:34:11 am »
Any thoughts on what a "true feminine nature" is?

        As others here have stated it changes from "era to era". According to Benjamin, you've got the three influences of biological (born as), psychosexual (identity) and cultural (learned) but, to this day, there's still no consensus among different professionals regarding "any deviations from traditional norms" and which is why "transgender" still remains closely associated with "feminism" and "LGB". (approve, like, or not!)

        Isn't everyone's so-called innate/acquired "sex-object choice" (or lack thereof?) merely a basic, involuntary desire to "complete" oneself, to "fill-in" with that which is otherwise felt as "missing"? (lol in physics all "gravitational objects", the weak force, attract but in a more excited, electromagnetic sense "opposites" especially do (attract) thus, in a human sense, wouldn't "heterosexual" be merely reinforcing, confirming different "societal gender roles" whereas "same-sex" would tend to undermine the so-called science, "laws-of-nature"?)

Where is all this leading "the future of humanity" in general?

        Is there really even such a thing as 100% 'masculine' or 'feminine' /or/ are we ALL, so-called 'cis' included, merely an unoriginal blend of the two combined in varying, but not 'different', degree of quality? Is it the 'ole "everyone is bisexual" (have elements of both or, alternately and more recently, "originally female") theory only:

Quote from: 'transgender', at best
" . . provided a new approach to older debates on nature vs nurture that continue to preoccupy those who hope to establish the (biological or social) basis of gender and sexuality.(1)"

Sorry! Thought rant over (1)"How Sex Changed" by joanne meyerowitz, page 122 (current/suggested summertime must read available as an 'ebook' on NOOK!)



« Last Edit: June 17, 2021, 03:49:27 am by Chloe »
"But it's no use now," thought poor Alice, "to pretend be two people!
"Why, there's hardly enough of me left to make one respectable person!"


Online pamelatransuk

  • Finally taking action after decades of suppression
  • *
  • Posts: 2,457
  • Reputation: +12/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: True Feminine Nature?
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2021, 05:42:30 am »
I think you need to view this statement in its historic context. Renee Richards had her GRS in the 1970's.
However, we have come a long way since then. We now understand that there is more than just the hyper feminine extreme end of the spectrum. Psychologists don't require wearing skirts and dresses 365 days a year and give up any  traits or hobbies with a remotely masculine appearance as a prerequisite before issuing their letters, etc.


It was an opinion, maybe belief that some held at the time. Truth? No. As discussed succinctly above, things change, but I would say it was never true per se, just accepted as fact or truth by some.

Hello again Amandam

I agree especially with the above comments. This was a misconception held by some in the 1970s and probably till towards the end of the last century. Fortunately Scientific research has improved dramatically and we have moved on to discount and possibly discredit previous thinking.

Don't worry. Just be yourself as thankfully we may now do so as this is the 21st century.

Wishing you happiness.

Hugs

Pamela xx

Offline Allie Jayne

  • *
  • Posts: 1,852
  • Reputation: +17/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: True Feminine Nature?
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2021, 05:56:34 am »
Of course the assumption Renee Richards was confronted with was that being trans is a choice, and if you couldn't fit the ideal, you should choose something else! How many trans people died because of this?

And yes, feminine nature is a far broader concept nowadays. We can even vote!

Hugs,

Allie

Offline RandiL

  • Formerly RandyL
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2,078
  • Reputation: +16/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • On the way
Re: True Feminine Nature?
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2021, 12:53:38 pm »


...We can even vote!

Hugs,

Allie
Now that would have been an interesting legal conundrum if transition had been a common concept back before women got the right to vote! Would MtF transitioners have lost their rights simply due to transition?

It might have forced a much better understanding and legal basis for transgender rights, and perhaps have impacted the legal basis for the rights of women as well.

Sent from my dual-floppy Victor 9000 using Tapatalk

Forging my new, best life as Randi

My personal blog thread: Randi the lost traveler, finding the right road at last

My HRT thread: Randi's HRT Journal


Tags: