Author Topic: Why some try to label differing opinions as “hate”  (Read 1004 times)

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Offline Ellie_Jean

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Re: Why some try to label differing opinions as “hate”
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2021, 06:07:18 pm »
BTW, I am totally in agreement with the "bigots" that MTF kids should not be allowed to compete in sports where being assigned male at birth gives them an unfair advantage.  If you are FTM and you want to join the basketball team, FINE.  If you are MTF and you want to take up figure skating, that's fine too.  Just my opinion...

...I don't understand this at all. 😖

...How does being assigned male at birth give somebody an unfair advantage in sports? 🤨

...And if it really does...then why should they be allowed to take up figure skating? 🤔

...I'm so confused lol. 😅
Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplaceable spark...
In the hopeless swamps of the not-quite, the not-yet, and the not-at-all.
Do not let the hero in your soul perish in lonely frustration...
For the life you deserved and have never been able to reach.
The world you desire can be won.
It exists.
It is real.
It is possible.
...IT'S YOURS.

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Offline Iztaccihuatl

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Re: Why some try to label differing opinions as “hate”
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2021, 01:06:55 am »
...I don't understand this at all. 😖

...How does being assigned male at birth give somebody an unfair advantage in sports? 🤨

...And if it really does...then why should they be allowed to take up figure skating? 🤔

...I'm so confused lol. 😅

In practically all sports that measure some dimension to determine a winner, whether the measured dimension was time (over a certain distance, like in running, swimming, speed skating, cross country skiing, etc), distance (track & field jumping and throwing disciplines) or weight (weightlifting), there is a very constant performance gap of 10-12% between men and women. The primary and only proven cause of this performance gap is testosterone, because it leads to an increased muscle mass and also to a higher count of red blood cells for people with testosterone levels in the male range.

Studies have shown that removing testosterone during HRT for transfeminine athletes who were assigned male at birth also leads to a performance drop in the aforementioned 10-12%, usually within 4-6 months of starting HRT. That is why the International Olympic Committee allows trans women to compete in the female category as long as their testosterone levels are below 10nmol/L, which some governing bodies for specific sports have further lowered to 5nmol/L (144ng/dL in US units). The average female T-levels are between .5 and 2.5 nmol/L (or 15-70ng/dL).

Some folks argue that other testosterone caused changes during puberty, such as increased body height or larger ribcage give trans women an advantage over cis women and these changes cannot be undone by HRT. As far as I know there is no study that actually proves such an advantage. I have also heard equally scientifically unsubstantiated arguments that trans women have a heavier skeleton than cis women, which was built to be operated by a male musculature, but after HRT reduced the muscle mass to female levels, operating a heavier skeleton is actually a disadvantage. Again, none of this has been scientifically proven and my personal feeling is that the mentioned advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out.

When it comes to trans kids who take puberty blockers and never had higher testosterone levels, there is absolutely no advantage a trans female youth athlete would have over their cis peers at all. That is why the current anti trans legislations in school sports in several states are particularly cruel.

Now, when it comes to judged sports, such as figure skating, gymnastics, half pipe, diving, etc, I don't know if trans athletes have any advantage, although I have to note that at least in figure skating the more complex jumps have always been shown first by men and later by women. I am not sure if this is caused by male muscle mass or because men are more willing to take risk.

Offline Ellie_Jean

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Re: Why some try to label differing opinions as “hate”
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2021, 09:22:06 am »
In practically all sports that measure some dimension to determine a winner, whether the measured dimension was time (over a certain distance, like in running, swimming, speed skating, cross country skiing, etc), distance (track & field jumping and throwing disciplines) or weight (weightlifting), there is a very constant performance gap of 10-12% between men and women. The primary and only proven cause of this performance gap is testosterone, because it leads to an increased muscle mass and also to a higher count of red blood cells for people with testosterone levels in the male range.

Studies have shown that removing testosterone during HRT for transfeminine athletes who were assigned male at birth also leads to a performance drop in the aforementioned 10-12%, usually within 4-6 months of starting HRT. That is why the International Olympic Committee allows trans women to compete in the female category as long as their testosterone levels are below 10nmol/L, which some governing bodies for specific sports have further lowered to 5nmol/L (144ng/dL in US units). The average female T-levels are between .5 and 2.5 nmol/L (or 15-70ng/dL).

Some folks argue that other testosterone caused changes during puberty, such as increased body height or larger ribcage give trans women an advantage over cis women and these changes cannot be undone by HRT. As far as I know there is no study that actually proves such an advantage. I have also heard equally scientifically unsubstantiated arguments that trans women have a heavier skeleton than cis women, which was built to be operated by a male musculature, but after HRT reduced the muscle mass to female levels, operating a heavier skeleton is actually a disadvantage. Again, none of this has been scientifically proven and my personal feeling is that the mentioned advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out.

When it comes to trans kids who take puberty blockers and never had higher testosterone levels, there is absolutely no advantage a trans female youth athlete would have over their cis peers at all. That is why the current anti trans legislations in school sports in several states are particularly cruel.

Now, when it comes to judged sports, such as figure skating, gymnastics, half pipe, diving, etc, I don't know if trans athletes have any advantage, although I have to note that at least in figure skating the more complex jumps have always been shown first by men and later by women. I am not sure if this is caused by male muscle mass or because men are more willing to take risk.

Love this. And of course, there's also the fact that human beings are individuals which come in all different shapes and sizes and sexes. When it comes to sports, I don't really think gender or sex matters. I'm 5'9 and approximately 150 pounds. ...My cisgender biologically female cousin though is 5'11 and 170 pounds. She could probably whoop my tucas six ways to Sunday in sports. There are a lot of big, strong, powerful women in the world lol. ...A lot of them in sports arenas LOL. 😅
Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplaceable spark...
In the hopeless swamps of the not-quite, the not-yet, and the not-at-all.
Do not let the hero in your soul perish in lonely frustration...
For the life you deserved and have never been able to reach.
The world you desire can be won.
It exists.
It is real.
It is possible.
...IT'S YOURS.

-- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged (1957)

Offline TXSara

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Re: Why some try to label differing opinions as “hate”
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2021, 05:32:36 pm »
Thanks Iztaccihuatl for your reasoned argument.  I didn't mean to sidetrack the discussion, though... my only point was that many of the issues we tend to demonize others over are not quite as "open and shut" as we might like them to be.  It's always best to try to understand the other side rather than assume that they are "evil" or "stupid".

I would love to continue this discussion another time without derailing the thread -- I like where you're at, but I still don't buy some of the "10-12%" numbers (weightlifting is at least 30%) or the dismissive comment that there is "no study that actually proves an advantage".  I believe there are certain sports where the advantage is negligible, but there are others (basketball, volleyball, high jump, etc) where it doesn't require a scientific study to see the advantage of having passed through male puberty.  The difficulty is that it is really hard for us to come up with hard and fast rules that address the problem in the best and most equitable way -- the lazy solution is what we get most of the time.

~Sara

Offline Lady Sarah

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Re: Why some try to label differing opinions as “hate”
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2021, 08:59:25 pm »
In practically all sports that measure some dimension to determine a winner, whether the measured dimension was time (over a certain distance, like in running, swimming, speed skating, cross country skiing, etc), distance (track & field jumping and throwing disciplines) or weight (weightlifting), there is a very constant performance gap of 10-12% between men and women. The primary and only proven cause of this performance gap is testosterone, because it leads to an increased muscle mass and also to a higher count of red blood cells for people with testosterone levels in the male range.

Studies have shown that removing testosterone during HRT for transfeminine athletes who were assigned male at birth also leads to a performance drop in the aforementioned 10-12%, usually within 4-6 months of starting HRT. That is why the International Olympic Committee allows trans women to compete in the female category as long as their testosterone levels are below 10nmol/L, which some governing bodies for specific sports have further lowered to 5nmol/L (144ng/dL in US units). The average female T-levels are between .5 and 2.5 nmol/L (or 15-70ng/dL).

Some folks argue that other testosterone caused changes during puberty, such as increased body height or larger ribcage give trans women an advantage over cis women and these changes cannot be undone by HRT. As far as I know there is no study that actually proves such an advantage. I have also heard equally scientifically unsubstantiated arguments that trans women have a heavier skeleton than cis women, which was built to be operated by a male musculature, but after HRT reduced the muscle mass to female levels, operating a heavier skeleton is actually a disadvantage. Again, none of this has been scientifically proven and my personal feeling is that the mentioned advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out.

When it comes to trans kids who take puberty blockers and never had higher testosterone levels, there is absolutely no advantage a trans female youth athlete would have over their cis peers at all. That is why the current anti trans legislations in school sports in several states are particularly cruel.

Now, when it comes to judged sports, such as figure skating, gymnastics, half pipe, diving, etc, I don't know if trans athletes have any advantage, although I have to note that at least in figure skating the more complex jumps have always been shown first by men and later by women. I am not sure if this is caused by male muscle mass or because men are more willing to take risk.

OK. I was AMAB. That did nothing as far as making me competitive in any sports. Until I was 15, I had the same height, weight, and nearly the same build as the girls. I say that, because only then did I actually hit a growth spurt, making me as tall as the boys.

So, you cannot lump everyone into the same basket. We are not all the same. Everyone's mileage varies. When it came to phys Ed in school, the only students I could compete against were the girls. I was on their level. Even the teachers knew it. When forced to compete against the boys, I was a total failure.
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Offline Ellie_Jean

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Re: Why some try to label differing opinions as “hate”
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2021, 10:38:42 pm »
OK. I was AMAB. That did nothing as far as making me competitive in any sports. Until I was 15, I had the same height, weight, and nearly the same build as the girls. I say that, because only then did I actually hit a growth spurt, making me as tall as the boys.

So, you cannot lump everyone into the same basket. We are not all the same. Everyone's mileage varies. When it came to phys Ed in school, the only students I could compete against were the girls. I was on their level. Even the teachers knew it. When forced to compete against the boys, I was a total failure.

Same here. I was the typical nerdy/autistic bookworm hiding in the Library during PE lol. Prominent member of the Chess Club. Always made the Honor Role. I was a walking cliche; constantly bullied lol. I tried joining the wrestling team to make my psycho dad proud, but at the tournament he hung his head and walked out with a disgusted look on his face when I got my butt whooped by a girl. (Apparently gender doesn't matter in wrestling either; she turned me into a pretzel lol. It was a low point in my life lol.) 😅
Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplaceable spark...
In the hopeless swamps of the not-quite, the not-yet, and the not-at-all.
Do not let the hero in your soul perish in lonely frustration...
For the life you deserved and have never been able to reach.
The world you desire can be won.
It exists.
It is real.
It is possible.
...IT'S YOURS.

-- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged (1957)

Offline Iztaccihuatl

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Re: Why some try to label differing opinions as “hate”
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2021, 12:40:48 am »
Thanks Iztaccihuatl for your reasoned argument.  I didn't mean to sidetrack the discussion, though... my only point was that many of the issues we tend to demonize others over are not quite as "open and shut" as we might like them to be.  It's always best to try to understand the other side rather than assume that they are "evil" or "stupid".

I would love to continue this discussion another time without derailing the thread -- I like where you're at, but I still don't buy some of the "10-12%" numbers (weightlifting is at least 30%) or the dismissive comment that there is "no study that actually proves an advantage".  I believe there are certain sports where the advantage is negligible, but there are others (basketball, volleyball, high jump, etc) where it doesn't require a scientific study to see the advantage of having passed through male puberty.  The difficulty is that it is really hard for us to come up with hard and fast rules that address the problem in the best and most equitable way -- the lazy solution is what we get most of the time.

~Sara

Thanks, Sara. I agree, we shouldn't further sidetrack this thread, but if you want to discuss the topic of transgender inclusion in sports (one of my soapbox topics), let's open a separate thread.

Offline BritneyX

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Re: Why some try to label differing opinions as “hate”
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2021, 01:08:06 am »
I posted a previous topic on this.  People in the LGBT are way to quick to label people as bigots are haters because they disagree with what you believe.  Dissenters are not “haters” people who don’t go with the flow are not bigots.  It’s just a different opinion.  I just see things different.
Agreed.  I find that they do so for political reasons. Not everything has to be about stinking politics.  People like that tend to see things through a single lens...their lens.  They expect everyone else to comply.  Life ain't so black and white.  There is a lot of shades fo grey in between.  If you expect other people to be open-minded and accept you, then you have to return the same in kind.  It is a two-way street.
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Offline mako9802

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Re: Why some try to label differing opinions as “hate”
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2021, 07:28:45 am »
I see a lot of "You are not valid" type of comments directed at trans people.  Be it their opinion or not, that qualifies as hate speech IMO.  Marginalizing groups of people is the aim.

Some trans people try to invalidate others because they get this air of superiority.  “I’m one of the good ones”. Oh this is how you are supposed to be doing it”. I’m like let peope do what they need to do.  Let them figure out who they are.  Don’t tell them what they are our try to make them what you want them to be.  Just let them be.  If you see a non-binary person who current presentation you may not like or agree with just sit back and relax and don’t be pushy towards them.  Maybe Androgyne is a pit-stop or whatever they are at the moment.  I have been bullied by binary transwoman in my area.   Here why I’m not a femme,  I didn’t totally hate my male side.  By I’m way more comfortable being androgynous to feminine looking than I am being totally male.  I not totally male or totally female.  I’m “in the middle”. All they did is push me away and make me uncomfortable.

Offline Skyenet

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Re: Why some try to label differing opinions as “hate”
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2021, 02:54:26 pm »
'lgtb issues' are pretty heavy because we are talking about bigotry and which people deserve to exist and have rights, trans people are wary and it's not really our fault, it's a survival mechanism.
That being said I read your previous post and ABSOLUTELY NO ONE  can tell you who you are! <3
Best wishes, hoping you find the support you need!
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