Author Topic: Anyone ever taken both T and E at the same time?  (Read 2158 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mandy M

  • Friend
  • ****
  • Posts: 201
  • Reputation: +5/-0
Re: Anyone ever taken both T and E at the same time?
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2022, 10:30:25 pm »

Mandy - I assume you already know but just to confirm that when having BT for E&T, most Members following advice from their doctor seek " trough" reading meaning take BT some time after administration of HRT.


Hi Pamela,

I've discussed this with my endocrinologist(s) and GiC a lot of times and they are adamant that they want peak readings. So I have consistently maintained that for T. Edit. I originally posted this message saying I also did the same for E but I now think that they told me to have mid-point E readings when I was on estrogen.

I think they feel it's pointless taking trough readings for T.

You may know that there's a huge scholarly debate about when to take T readings for those using exogenous testosterone. The general consensus is 2 to 4 hours post administration but studies have shown huge variability in readings. In fact, so much so that some endocrinologists even argue that taking blood tests for testosterone is a waste of time and that endos should go more on how the patient is feeling. It's a big topic of debate in medical circles.

I have suggested to them a couple of times that if you are taking a reading 2 hours after smearing testosterone gel on your body you aren't proving anything other than that you have smeared testosterone gel on your body.

I think this is probably a rather different situation than oestradiol E2 where you are trying to measure a residual level of estrogen in the system. Testosterone is different: it's so damned powerful that you put it on, it peaks, it lowers and you put it on again. Blood tests for T in those circumstances are probably pointless but important for other endocrine functions including lipid, liver, kidney function and to ensure no other reactions are occurring. But for the T level itself? I certainly see why research papers say it has little purpose.

In theory once you stop applying exogenous testosterone it fully clears the system in 4 days. Some argue less than that. It's certainly a very transitory and (I would argue) artificial drug - rather like drinking caffeine. That's how I feel about it anyway. Unlike estrogen, this feels like a temporary solution to me but that may of course be because I identify female.

xx
« Last Edit: April 11, 2022, 04:50:51 am by Mandy M »

Offline Mandy M

  • Friend
  • ****
  • Posts: 201
  • Reputation: +5/-0
Re: Anyone ever taken both T and E at the same time?
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2022, 10:40:07 pm »
This is my musings on the subject.. I am not a doctor, nor pretending to be one.. I have simply dealt with every possible endocrine issue for the last 15 years due to a brain tumour removing any natural hormone function. As a trained scientist and patient.  I have talked to some of the most respected endocrinologists and discussed some of this with them.

There are some misconceptions.. Testosterone is male, Estrogen is female.. is the big one.  It is true, a lot of T and it will masculinise a body.. A larger proportion of Estrogen and the body will feminise.. However, everyone actually has a mix of both T and E.. it is the ratio that is different. It is very unusual for a person not to have a little of one and a lot more of the other... but should you be in a position where you only have one of these hormones in your body, then your body will not function as well as it should. Libido seems to be the first to be killed, followed by any desire to do things..
Another misconception.. Testosterone levels in blood indicate the level of masculinisation that will be occurring. People seem to think it is a sliding scale.. the more you have, the bigger the effect.. well, almost every cis-woman in the world has T in their system, and they are not masculinising.. and likewise for each male, who has some estrogen in his system..  These hormones levels are not volume controls.. you need enough of each hormone to stimulate the desired biological response. Of course, at the top end, in the extremes.. putting in a LOT of hormone gives a huge result. This however, is stressful to the body and will result in problems.. levels of hormone above what would naturally occur is something again I would suggest anyone avoid.

So, in my opinion, it is about balance. working with your medical services and endocrine. Look at your blood levels of E2 and T over a period of time.. establish them within the region of what is biological indicated for your desired gender, and yes, sorry.. that is binary.. and try and keep those levels for as long as possible by having regular checks and blood tests.

I think these are all excellent points and I agree with you Sarah except for your final paragraph which I'm not so sure about. Stating that desired gender is binary is a bit controversial? It is also endocrinologically slightly contradictory of your earlier excellent point that most people have naturally occurring levels of both T and E.

If you take a random sample of 1000 people measuring their E and T you will find a huge range of results: some with high levels of T or E and a mixture of them with a myriad of combinations in between.

We should not force those with gender dysphoria or who have no naturally occurring hormones to be any different? If some people wish to sit somewhere in the middle that's totally fine and endocrinologists will adjust accordingly. Endocrinologists at gender clinics are increasingly treating patients who are non-binary and I think this is really excellent. The old binary way of thinking, at least here in the UK, is a thing of the past and gender clinics now treat everyone on an individual pathway basis rather than forcing them into artificial absolutes. This has to be right.

However, I think I see your point: that there's no real pathway to prescribing both exogenous hormones at the same time. It can confuse the body and lead to strange results.

Interesting fact that testosterone can convert to estrogen through the feedback loop but the opposite cannot happen. When I was on Tostran gel my body-brain started making estrogen in quite high amounts: physicians claimed to be astonished and that they 'had never seen anything like it before'.

Do our brains and bodies find a way?!

xx

Offline Mandy M

  • Friend
  • ****
  • Posts: 201
  • Reputation: +5/-0
Re: Anyone ever taken both T and E at the same time?
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2022, 06:23:03 am »
Just to update this, my prescription is on its way.

The plan is gradual titration down of the testosterone gel a process which is already underway. I'm expecting this to take some weeks though as I really want my body-brain to adjust gradually. And I will allow a few days of zero exogenous application.

I'm on a micro dose of estrogen which is really just for my mental wellbeing and I basically won't go down the overlap route. I will wait to come off testosterone altogether before commencing the new prescription.

Thank you everyone for all your lovely comments and such helpful thoughts. I will keep you posted.

xx

Online Northern Star Girl

  • Previously Alaskan Danielle
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 44,556
  • Reputation: +118/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • northernstargirl@susans.org
Re: Anyone ever taken both T and E at the same time?
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2022, 08:08:43 am »
@Mandy M
Dear Mandy:
I am very excited for you as you get your prescription and
start back onto an Estrogen-only regime.

For your followers here is your other thread/topic that you shared just today:
                    My journey back to Estrogen
      https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,258921.0.html

Please continue to keep me and the rest of your avid followers up to date
with your progress.


HUGS and best wishes as you continue toward your goal.
Danielle




Just to update this, my prescription is on its way.

The plan is gradual titration down of the testosterone gel a process which is already underway. I'm expecting this to take some weeks though as I really want my body-brain to adjust gradually. And I will allow a few days of zero exogenous application.

I'm on a micro dose of estrogen which is really just for my mental wellbeing and I basically won't go down the overlap route. I will wait to come off testosterone altogether before commencing the new prescription.

Thank you everyone for all your lovely comments and such helpful thoughts. I will keep you posted.

xx
***SEE MY LINKS BELOW
The Ramblings of a Northern*Star Girl
A New Chapter: ALASKAN DANIELLE's Chronicles
I am the HUNTED PREY: Danielle’s Chronicles
Things change re: ALASKAN DANIELLE
Positive Mindset... put away negativity

Started HRT:   March 2015
Went Full-Time    December 2016
Quit my male-mode job and relocated to a very small town in Alaska in January 2017
I'm a blonde, blue eyed woman, Age 42

Offline Dolly

  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • Reputation: +3/-0
Re: Anyone ever taken both T and E at the same time?
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2022, 06:22:44 pm »
Hi Mandy, although I have not taken both simultaneously the spiro & E had been used as prescribed for approximately 3 years my care provider was the Vine Hill Women's Center in Nashville (excellent care providers).  In early 2020 I moved to Florida and never pursued refilling my meds.  At the end of 6 weeks I was in a bad place my body was not processing either hormone and it was the panic of COVID setting in. Yes to everything everyone has ever said about coming off E and then some.  The only trans care provider willing to see me was PP. I will only say in my experience they are the EXTREME opposite of the care previously mentioned by VHWC to a point my baseline BT showed super low T but they still had me back on spiro with a super low dose of E. At my three month check up my BT showed 0-T but again they kept up the spiro and upped the E finally to a normal dose.  The gatekeeping methods they use became impossible for me to deal with so I made a decision to use my remaining patches in a step down process over a few months and this seemed to be a solid direction but in avoiding complete fog.  What I soon found out is my body was failing again with in a couple of months with no E.  The time frame is now mid 2021 still impossible to find a GP without a six month wait let alone inquiring about trans-care was like farting out load in church.  Finding a clinic that would provide me care the MD quickly got me on T-gel but in itself has taken another 5-months. So now we are in current time the t-gel has helped there are a few lingering affects for going with out moans that will probably self correct if given a chance. A chance is not likely going to occur at my next appointment I'm going to express my desire to get back on the E-train and hopefully the Endo that has been providing me care will be approachable and understanding time will tell. I do not fear the fog of going without knowing how low my homeostasis had been, its working in the direction to achieve my greater self. Probably not the perfect response you are looking for but these are my hills and valleys. Best wishes on what you decide is best for you.

Offline Mandy M

  • Friend
  • ****
  • Posts: 201
  • Reputation: +5/-0
Re: Anyone ever taken both T and E at the same time?
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2022, 02:17:43 am »
Thank you so much for this sharing this Dolly which also helps on my other thread: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,258921.msg2451711.html#msg2451711

Your journey resonates with mine and I really feel for you through this. I earnestly hope you do find a provider with a caring attitude who can get you on your correct path.

I'll mention your post on the other thread.

xx

Offline Mandy M

  • Friend
  • ****
  • Posts: 201
  • Reputation: +5/-0
Re: Anyone ever taken both T and E at the same time?
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2022, 12:38:47 am »
An update over on here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,258921.msg2451841.html#msg2451841

I think it's basically over. I can't seem to find a way to do this without destroying my physical and mental wellbeing. I'll have to stay on T and try to live with my dysphoria.

xx

Offline JanePlain

  • Just Plain Jay Please!
  • *
  • Posts: 727
  • Reputation: +10/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Jay
Re: Anyone ever taken both T and E at the same time?
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2022, 11:47:09 pm »
Sorry to jump in late but I've not been on the forum that often.  Like my wonderful beautiful brilliant girlfriend SarahEL I have (but I still do) take both testosterone and estrogen. I had an orchiectomy so what little I have is made by my adrenal glands and they don't produce much in my case.

My endo explained that one hormone without the other (either male or female mix) is what zeroed out my libido gave me mood problems, brain fog and I forget what else.  And as I said I don't make much of either and for a while after cancer surgery wasn't on either for a year (Which was a living hell)  All one wasn't as bad but... life really seemed to be going noplace fast. I would call BS on your doctors that say taking both is bad. Have them explain exactly why since all cis males and females have lots of one and some of the other. I don't have links on hand but can if you like dig up papers on men with low estrogen suffering the same problems as men with low testosterone (In male levels) and the same of course is true for women with abnormally low testosterone levels.

Hope your feeling better soon!
"This world is but canvas to our imaginations.
Henry David Thoreau - (1817-1862)

Offline Mandy M

  • Friend
  • ****
  • Posts: 201
  • Reputation: +5/-0
Re: Anyone ever taken both T and E at the same time?
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2022, 11:50:48 pm »
Sorry to jump in late but I've not been on the forum that often.  Like my wonderful beautiful brilliant girlfriend SarahEL I have (but I still do) take both testosterone and estrogen. I had an orchiectomy so what little I have is made by my adrenal glands and they don't produce much in my case.

My endo explained that one hormone without the other (either male or female mix) is what zeroed out my libido gave me mood problems, brain fog and I forget what else.  And as I said I don't make much of either and for a while after cancer surgery wasn't on either for a year (Which was a living hell)  All one wasn't as bad but... life really seemed to be going noplace fast. I would call BS on your doctors that say taking both is bad. Have them explain exactly why since all cis males and females have lots of one and some of the other. I don't have links on hand but can if you like dig up papers on men with low estrogen suffering the same problems as men with low testosterone (In male levels) and the same of course is true for women with abnormally low testosterone levels.

Hope your feeling better soon!

Wow Jane, thank you so much for this. It's really really interesting. I would love to see links if you have them (could always PM me them) but only if you have time?

I really think you are onto something here. Thank you.

x

Offline SarahEL

  • Oh no, I have said too much, I haven't said enough...
  • Family
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 798
  • Reputation: +19/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • That's me in the corner.... That's me in the photo
Re: Anyone ever taken both T and E at the same time?
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2022, 08:48:37 am »
I think these are all excellent points and I agree with you Sarah except for your final paragraph which I'm not so sure about. Stating that desired gender is binary is a bit controversial? It is also endocrinologically slightly contradictory of your earlier excellent point that most people have naturally occurring levels of both T and E.

To clarify.. I am not saying gender is binary.. I was saying biological sex, with representation to hormones, is binary.. That means that there are no levels outside of the normal ranges of the prescribed male or female ranges that are sustainable.. and in reality, those ranges are huge anyway and overlap.  But, if anyone is trying to find a biological middle ground for hormonal gender.. sorry, it does not exist and you will be much more successful and feel a whole lot better if you target one or other of the ranges..

There is also no contradiction.. most people (all without any hormone complications or taking drugs) have naturally testosterone and estrogen.  Females tend to have more Estrogen, Males Testosterone.. neither can really function properly without having some of the other.  That is the biological norm and that is part of the reason the biological sex is binary. As I started my last post.. the biggest misconception is Testosterone is male and estrogen is female.. that is simply not how it works and if a doctor is prescribing that this is the case, I would question them deeply to ascertain their understanding.

here are some links

https://tctmed.com/estrogen-in-men/

https://www.womens-health-concern.org/help-and-advice/factsheets/testosterone-for-women/

In fact the UK's NHS (national health service) has recently come under fire for not supplying testosterone to women undergoing menopause.. There is a ruling that only males can be on T (and females can only be on E, unless transsexual).. and as it stands, the only testosterone available on the NHS is testogel and that is so strong that when I use it.. I have to quarter one dispensed pump and use it once every 3 days.. tbh.. I don't bother now since GRS, as it seems I can make some T now adrenally..
Oh, life is bigger,  It's bigger Than you and you are not me
The lengths that I will go to.  The distance in your eyes

R.E.M. - Losing My Religion

Offline Mandy M

  • Friend
  • ****
  • Posts: 201
  • Reputation: +5/-0
Re: Anyone ever taken both T and E at the same time?
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2022, 11:12:09 pm »
Ah okay now I understand where you were coming from Sarah and I'm with you 100%. I think that's exactly right. To put it as a metaphor: in Uni terms I'm now majoring on Estrogen, with a minor in Testosterone.

Anyway, what you've posted is spot on.

Very interested as well in what you mentioned about Testogel.

x
« Last Edit: May 09, 2022, 02:58:15 am by Mandy M »

Offline Mandy M

  • Friend
  • ****
  • Posts: 201
  • Reputation: +5/-0
Re: Anyone ever taken both T and E at the same time?
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2022, 10:41:05 am »

Tags: