Author Topic: FINA has banned Trangender Women from competing in Women’s events  (Read 794 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Allie Jayne

  • *
  • Posts: 1,917
  • Reputation: +28/-0
  • Gender: Female
FINA, the world body governing swimming, including at the Olympics, has just banned any trans swimmer who has gone through all or part of male puberty, from competing in women’s events, or holding a World Records for women. This decision was taken after recent successes by trans swimmers in elite events, and after months of studies by a range of parties.

They are looking at creating an “Open Event” in most categories so Trans women can ‘compete’, but this division has not been fully investigated as yet. In any case, FINA has just officially stated that Trans Women are not Women, and it would be expected that other sports bodies would follow this lead.

There has not been any proposal to restrict Trans Men from competing in Men’s Events.

This is a major setback for Trans Equality, but really, not unexpected. My hope is that this trend is restricted to sport and is not used to restrict other areas of our lives.

Hugs,

Allie
1958 Knew I should be a girl
1961 Told my mother I was a girl
1976 told my fiance I was trans
1999 told my 2nd wife to be I was trans
2000 began being me at home
2018 Dysphoria made me seriously sick
2019 started HRT, not sick any more!
        Started electrolysis
2020 Full time, legally Me!
2021 Labiaplasty
        Divorced again and on my own

Offline Sephirah

  • *
  • Posts: 5,770
  • Reputation: +344/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: FINA has banned Trangender Women from competing in Women’s events
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2022, 02:48:41 pm »
From what I've read, this is a very murky area. With the overwhelming consensus being "We just don't know." It kind of feels like erring on the side of caution.
 
I can see both sides of this. And I can see why there is a divide. I'm not sure using Usain Bolt's height or the size of Michael Phelps' feet is really a good argument though. They're apples and oranges.

In any case, FINA has just officially stated that Trans Women are not Women, and it would be expected that other sports bodies would follow this lead.

I couldn't find any official statement to this effect, Allie. If you have one could you link it? That isn't what they're saying. As I said, I can see both sides. As far as I can see, what they're saying is that if trans women have had the testosterone dump that comes from male puberty then they feel there could be an issue because of how biology works. Which, again, isn't actually proven to be a thing. But I couldn't find anyone saying anyone trans isn't who they are. You have to realise you're dealing with competitive events for which the slightest edge can be the difference between winning and not winning. So they have to be extremely careful.

Offline Iztaccihuatl

  • Friend
  • ****
  • Posts: 232
  • Reputation: +4/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: FINA has banned Trangender Women from competing in Women’s events
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2022, 04:42:55 pm »
I don't think the last word has been spoken on this yet, as FINA's ruling goes against the International Olympic Committee (IOC) rules about inclusion of trans athletes (which in principle enables the inclusion of trans athletes at the Olympics, but leaves the details to the respective sports federations). So, I think there will still be some more debates, maybe even a case in front of the CAS...

Heidemarie

Online Devlyn

  • The Forum Administrator
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 32,945
  • Reputation: +272/-1
  • Gender: Female
  • devlynmarie@susans.org
Re: FINA has banned Trangender Women from competing in Women’s events
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2022, 04:51:16 pm »
FINA, the world body governing swimming, including at the Olympics, has just banned any trans swimmer who has gone through all or part of male puberty, from competing in women’s events, or holding a World Records for women. This decision was taken after recent successes by trans swimmers in elite events, and after months of studies by a range of parties.

They are looking at creating an “Open Event” in most categories so Trans women can ‘compete’, but this division has not been fully investigated as yet. In any case, FINA has just officially stated that Trans Women are not Women, and it would be expected that other sports bodies would follow this lead.

There has not been any proposal to restrict Trans Men from competing in Men’s Events.

This is a major setback for Trans Equality, but really, not unexpected. My hope is that this trend is restricted to sport and is not used to restrict other areas of our lives.

Hugs,

Allie

From what I've read, this is a very murky area. With the overwhelming consensus being "We just don't know." It kind of feels like erring on the side of caution.
 
I can see both sides of this. And I can see why there is a divide. I'm not sure using Usain Bolt's height or the size of Michael Phelps' feet is really a good argument though. They're apples and oranges.

In any case, FINA has just officially stated that Trans Women are not Women, and it would be expected that other sports bodies would follow this lead.

I couldn't find any official statement to this effect, Allie. If you have one could you link it? That isn't what they're saying. As I said, I can see both sides. As far as I can see, what they're saying is that if trans women have had the testosterone dump that comes from male puberty then they feel there could be an issue because of how biology works. Which, again, isn't actually proven to be a thing. But I couldn't find anyone saying anyone trans isn't who they are. You have to realise you're dealing with competitive events for which the slightest edge can be the difference between winning and not winning. So they have to be extremely careful.



I've read the 24 page FINA document, they outline the reasoning behind the recent ruling.  They have not stated that "Trans women are not women ". Allie has made a hyperbolic statement, not a statement of fact.

I don't think the last word has been spoken on this yet, as FINA's ruling goes against the International Olympic Committee (IOC) rules about inclusion of trans athletes (which in principle enables the inclusion of trans athletes at the Olympics, but leaves the details to the respective sports federations). So, I think there will still be some more debates, maybe even a case in front of the CAS...

Heidemarie

From Wikipedia:

"FINA is the international federation recognised by the International Olympic Committee for administering international competitions in water sports. It is one of several international federations which administer a given sport or discipline for both the IOC and the international community."


Make of that what you will, but FINA and the IOC appear to be as one. I expect their positions will soon mirror each other, whether in accordance with the IOC standards,  the FINA standards, or somewhere in between.
Veteran, US Army

Offline Allie Jayne

  • *
  • Posts: 1,917
  • Reputation: +28/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: FINA has banned Trangender Women from competing in Women’s events
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2022, 05:39:09 pm »
Sephira, excluding Trans Women from Women’s events is saying Trans women are not Women. Anti trans groups will seize on the fact that a World Authority has made this determination, and use it to push for exclusion of trans people from restrooms and other female spaces. This is a significant negative event for all Trans people!

Iztaccihuati, I really hope you are right, but the OC did recommend the sports authorities develop their own rules and I don’t see this being rejected, in fact, other sports will look at following this landmark decision. The problem is that ongoing debate invariably hurts the broader trans community, and could very well see us all disadvantaged!

Hugs,

Allie
1958 Knew I should be a girl
1961 Told my mother I was a girl
1976 told my fiance I was trans
1999 told my 2nd wife to be I was trans
2000 began being me at home
2018 Dysphoria made me seriously sick
2019 started HRT, not sick any more!
        Started electrolysis
2020 Full time, legally Me!
2021 Labiaplasty
        Divorced again and on my own

Offline sophie1904

  • *
  • Posts: 117
  • Reputation: +4/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: FINA has banned Trangender Women from competing in Women’s events
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2022, 07:50:49 am »
I'm really torn on this.

My guiding principle on this has been that we have sports federations for exactly this purpose.

Assuming they did look into the issue rigorously and came to a conclusion, isn't that what we expect them to do?

If the choice is between a governing body or politicians in the right wing culture wars, I'll choose the governing body every time.

A flat out ban seems extreme but is it worse than the media hysteria that is whipped up on a case by case basis?

Ceding this ground seems dangerous though so as I said, I'm torn.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk


Online Devlyn

  • The Forum Administrator
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 32,945
  • Reputation: +272/-1
  • Gender: Female
  • devlynmarie@susans.org
Re: FINA has banned Trangender Women from competing in Women’s events
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2022, 08:27:12 am »
I'm really torn on this.

My guiding principle on this has been that we have sports federations for exactly this purpose.

Assuming they did look into the issue rigorously and came to a conclusion, isn't that what we expect them to do?

If the choice is between a governing body or politicians in the right wing culture wars, I'll choose the governing body every time.

A flat out ban seems extreme but is it worse than the media hysteria that is whipped up on a case by case basis?

Ceding this ground seems dangerous though so as I said, I'm torn.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

You can download the document here:

https://resources.fina.org/fina/document/2022/06/19/525de003-51f4-47d3-8d5a-716dac5f77c7/FINA-INCLUSION-POLICY-AND-APPENDICES-FINAL-.pdf
Veteran, US Army

Offline davina61

  • *
  • Posts: 8,257
  • Reputation: +15/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • The ramblings of an old dear
Re: FINA has banned Trangender Women from competing in Women’s events
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2022, 11:29:53 am »
And following this the rugby has banned m to f from competing in international events until evidence either way is found
a long time coming (out) HRT 12 2017


Jill of all trades mistress of non
Know a bit about everything but not enough to be clever.
I get pushed out of shape and its hard to steer when I get rubber in all 4 gears (Beach Boys ,little deuce coupe)

Offline Sephirah

  • *
  • Posts: 5,770
  • Reputation: +344/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: FINA has banned Trangender Women from competing in Women’s events
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2022, 01:42:07 pm »
Sephira, excluding Trans Women from Women’s events is saying Trans women are not Women. Anti trans groups will seize on the fact that a World Authority has made this determination, and use it to push for exclusion of trans people from restrooms and other female spaces. This is a significant negative event for all Trans people!

The most frustrating thing about this is that it's purely based on physiology rather than psychology. But the people you're talking about likely won't even take the time to examine the details. As much as it's a straw man logical fallacy, you're likely right to an extent. Which is annoying. But they aren't excluding all trans women. Which is cold comfort, I know. And I understand what you're saying. But I also know that having a competitive edge over someone else because you are just physically stronger, faster, or more capable than they are, is an issue. Even if it's no fault of your own. In an environment where even the slightest edge could be seen as unfair.

From what I can gather there is work being done as to whether that's actually the case. It's ongoing, and bodies seem to be open to amending their stance based on the ongoing research. As I said, it's a murky area and no one really knows right now. I suspect it's appealing to the masses. But I can understand why these rulings have been made. Whether I agree with them or not is irrelevant.

To give you a quote from Seb Coe:

Quote
“If one of my colleagues here in my team suddenly becomes transgender, it doesn’t make a difference to me. They will continue to do the same job, they will continue to do the same job with skill and aplomb in exactly the way they were before they made that transition. This is not possible in sport. It is fundamental to performance and integrity and that, for me, is the big, big difference.”

The razor's edge of sport is literally based on millimetres and milliseconds. I find it hard to argue with him. It is based entirely on physiology. And I don't think anything about this is based on saying trans women aren't women. It's more the effect that a male puberty had on these women. I hope that research can get to the bottom of this and provide more light to this issue.

And following this the rugby has banned m to f from competing in international events until evidence either way is found

I read their statement and it seems a bit of a bandwagon jump. But they also seem to be very open to ongoing research and findings and look at their stance periodically. Which is a good thing. Assuming it's true.

The thing about this is, I haven't gotten anything from any of this that is saying someone isn't who they are. They're focusing on the effects on their body from the body they were born with. Which... I mean it's kind of undeniable what effects going through puberty can have on someone. You see it here literally all the time. And in competitive sports that is the only thing that matters to the people who govern these sports. They don't care who you are, only what you can do. There's no commentary either way. Only that you may or may not have an unfair advantage over someone else. Testosterone doping through anabolic steroids is banned in most sports. This seems to me as an extension of that.

I don't like people using an appeal to emotion, though. Saying transgender kids are going to be hit hard by this. I think that's a bit below the belt and unneccesary.

Offline Allie Jayne

  • *
  • Posts: 1,917
  • Reputation: +28/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: FINA has banned Trangender Women from competing in Women’s events
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2022, 05:49:28 pm »
Let's look at some facts here. There are claims  that trans athletes have a physical advantage over cis women, and that women are upset at being beaten by trans women, who are dominating. There has never been a trans woman holding any world class record, winning any world class event, or even making the finals of a world class event! This does not indicate any advantage, and certainly no dominance.

Within a year of starting on effective transition doses of HRT, trans women lose muscle mass and strength to put them within the performance parameters of cis women. Their haemoglobin level drop to the same level of cis women, meaning they only have the same capacity to deliver oxygen to muscles as women. Professional cycling looked at this years ago and found it to be a disadvantage for trans performance as it made their muscles less efficient. Over two years, bone density drops to cis female parameters, meaning they face the same risk of injury on impact. Hands and feet are larger on post male puberty transitioning trans women, but they need efficient muscles to make that a real advantage, and as shown, this is not the case. 

In every group, there will be exeptions. Michael Phelps was such an exeption, he had unusually large feet and hands, but also he didn't produce lactic acid like others, which meant he could push his body harder. His exception was celebrated. In Australia, the laws governing discrimination include an out for sports where a trans person exhibits exceptional abilities, and this has been in place for more than a decade, and could also work for world sporting bodies.

FINA's actions have been driven by people upset over a College trans swimmer, Lia Thomas, who won this years NCAA 500 yard freestyle title. Anti trans groups have pushed that Lia has advantages from being trans, and is dominating her sport, making cis women feel that they can't compete. This is all a beat up! Yes, Lia did win the 500 title this year, but the top swimmers in that event did not compete this year due to Covid affected preparations, and Lia's winning time was 10 seconds slower that the NCAA record for that event, held by Katie Ledeke. Lia, and Katie are almost identical in their physical dimensions, but Lia can not compete with Katie, or a lot of other swimmers in this class. Lia competed in 4 other events at that meet, and was unplaced in all of them. Contrary to the misinformation being spread, Lia does not have significant advantages, is certainly not dominating, and there are a bunch of cis women who have advantages over Lia!!!

So it is obvious that FINA has introduced a solution to a problem that simply does not exist! There are so few elite level trans athletes, that any problem would be miniscule, and certainly not the threat to women's sport that the anti trans movement portrays. Even FINA's suggestion of an Open class is not feasible as trans female athletes simply could not compete against men, and so would effectively be excluded. A trans only class would never have enough competitors to actually run.

What can we do? It's pretty obvious, this will now spread through other sports, and the World Rugby authority has already followed FINA's move. But it's also obvious that this determination that trans women are not women, and should be excluded from women's only spaces will flow into the public domain. if you don't wish to be prevented from using female restrooms, change rooms, schools, social groups and clubs, now is the time to get active and start refuting the lies that are being spread about you! Let your community and politicians know the truth, and push hard for our basic Human Rights!

Hugs,

Allie
1958 Knew I should be a girl
1961 Told my mother I was a girl
1976 told my fiance I was trans
1999 told my 2nd wife to be I was trans
2000 began being me at home
2018 Dysphoria made me seriously sick
2019 started HRT, not sick any more!
        Started electrolysis
2020 Full time, legally Me!
2021 Labiaplasty
        Divorced again and on my own

Offline Misato

  • *
  • Posts: 990
  • Reputation: +21/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • I thought I was out, but I've been pulled back in.
Re: FINA has banned Trangender Women from competing in Women’s events
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2022, 10:07:03 pm »
Lia needed to get out in front of this a lot sooner. She needed a PR manager or something to help get some input around guiding the narrative. But that didn’t happen. It’s like she didn’t get how many people are smugly, and passionately, hostile toward us.

What’s more this mess gave a big ole shot in the arm to the “biological assignment” angle people are coming after us with. So more sports will follow, and are following swimming as noted above. More rollbacks of the gains we made over the last 10 years are likely to follow that. Makes life like that episode of South Park where Cartman gets the theme park, and tells everyone else they can’t come. When he loses the park, it hurts him more because before he didn’t know what it was like to have a theme park of his own.

We need someone with charisma to have a voice in this as we’re getting rolled over. Most people won’t even amount to anything in sports! They’re just an excuse to hang out with friends, or get some exercise. We absolutely should look at this more objectively, on an athlete by athlete basis. But instead the discourse is running with stereotypes because that’s “simple,” and enough people want to protect the image of women being smaller, and weaker than men. That’s why when women come along whom challenge traditional feminine build they’re forced into that box too. See Caster Semenya.

Offline Jessica_K

  • *
  • Posts: 483
  • Reputation: +4/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: FINA has banned Trangender Women from competing in Women’s events
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2022, 04:01:01 am »
My first point, to my mind, all elite athletes to a degree have a physical advantage over us mere mortals as a starting point, then lots of hard work and training develops them from good to elite. There has been mention of individual athletes, but consider Kenyans, here there are a entire country of athletes that because of where they are born, have developed bodies that can produce elite long distance runners. Ban them of course not that would be racist. All basketball players are 7ft tall (rash statement but I think it is a good point)

My second point,  soon grassroots sport will follow, putting in bans too, most sports after a certain age split into boys and girls leagues. Entering the sport after this split, trans women will have nowhere to go.

Third point and this has been mentioned here, groups of Cis women, right wing politicians and groups will use it as propaganda to reduce the rights of trans women

And a point made by Davina world rugby decides to ban trans women, even though there are none in the elite sport.

This is all another example of third class trans.

Jessica xx

Tags: