Author Topic: Sexually Confused . . .  (Read 15191 times)

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gina_taylor

Sexually Confused . . .
« on: April 07, 2006, 09:26:51 am »
The other day a friend had asked me why it is that if I claim to be a homosexual, than why is it that I dress as a woman and have changed my name to a feminine name. She says that men who like men don't like women and vice versa. The question has had me very perplexed. Yet I couldn't intelligently answer her.  Perhaps it's just due to the way that society sees me. Even though I'm a male who wears feminine clothes, they still label me as being a homosexual. A good friend gave me a good theory that because I prefer men more than I do women than I am a 100% heterosexual woman.

Gina  :)


stephanie_craxford

Re: Sexually Confused . . .
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2006, 11:11:06 am »
Hey there Gina.

Check out this thread:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,416.0.html

Steph

gina_taylor

Re: Sexually Confused . . .
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2006, 11:45:48 am »
Thanks Stephanie for leading me to that thread. I'll read it thoroughly. It may be the answer and I'll discuss it with my friend. Hopefully I should be able to intelligently answer her about it.  :)

Gina  :)

Hazumu

Re: Sexually Confused . . .
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2006, 10:48:31 am »
(...not sure whether to post this in this thread, or the one Steph referred Gina to...)

I know at some point some Neanderthal will call me a (word used only to make a point,) "FAGGOT!!!"  It was in fact a label that I spent many years running and hiding from. 

I found it strange to do that because 1) I had looked deeply within myself, asking myself if I was gay.  The answer that came back was 'no'.  and 2) I personally had no problem or discomfort being around gay men (or for that matter, gay/lesbian women) but shied away from the association in public, lest I be identified by some neanderthal as also being gay (guilt by association...)

Now, what's really interesting is that, since finally figuring out that all these years I've been a trans girl (and didn't know it or wouldn't admit it,) any lingering discomfort with being around gay men has evaporated.

Very interesting, that...

Karen

Melissa

Re: Sexually Confused . . .
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2006, 03:02:54 pm »
Hi Karen,

I always thought of my self as a straight male (although at times maybe a lesbian in a male body) and now I have no idea of my orientation.  I am certain I am a woman, but have no idea whom I'm attracted to at this point.  I may end up being Bi, by the time I'm done with transition.

If somebody were to come up to me and call me gay, I would say "You're right.  I like women, so that makes me gay."  That's one of the great things about being transsexual, is that the sexual orientation thing is so confusing, that you can confuse anybody trying to insult you.

Melissa

gina_taylor

Re: Sexually Confused . . .
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2006, 04:45:09 pm »
Very interesting theory there Melissa. I am definately sure that I am a woman ( and that is not just based on that Gender Test) but I am very much attracted  to men.

Today I received a very lovely hand made card from a friend who I have been corresponding with for a while and on the front it said: "I'm Thinking Of You." and when I opened it on the left side of  the card it said" "I Love You" and then he expressed himself with some very hearfelt words on the right side of the card.

Now I have thought of the possibility that I may be Bi, but I have come to the conclusion that I make better friends with women than I do anything else.

I read through that thread that Stephanie had suggested, and unfortunately there wasn't too much there that could help me.

But you know Melissa, you're right when you say:"That one of the great things about being transsexual, is that the sexual orientation thing is so confusing, that you can confuse anybody trying to insult you."

Gina  :)


madison

Re: Sexually Confused . . .
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2006, 05:57:43 am »
Until I came to Susan's it had never occurred to me that these questions of sexuality would be so prominent. I always imagined that out crossdressers and transitioning people would have all the answers, had it all worked out, had made it all make sense. But I guess I was less alone in my confusion than I thought.

I kind of view the orientation concept in simple terms.

A genetic male or a transitioning FTM that likes women is hetero.
A genetic male or a transitioning FTM that likes men is gay.
A genetic female or a transitioning MTF that likes men is hetero.
A genetic female or a transitioning FTM that likes women is gay.
A MTF crossdresser that likes women is hetero.
A MTF crossdresser that likes men is gay.
A FTM crossdresser that likes men is hetero.
A FTM crossdresser that likes women is gay.
And anybody who likes men AND women is bisexual.

And I base this more on the plumbing as it were, than on the emotional content of those relationships. Hetero or gay in my mind has everything to do with sexual orientation in relation to sexual organs.

The problem I see coming up time and time again in these types of discussions is some sort of stigma that trans people seem to place on the thought of being attracted to members of the same sex OUTSIDE of gender adjusted presentation. It's almost as if a male crossdresser can think it is disgusting/inappropriate for two men to share emotional and sexual energy, but if one of the "men" involved is presenting as a woman, it somehow makes it less disgusting/inappropriate. (Side note: I haven't seen so much of this attitude in such a blatant manner from the FTM members of Susan's).

I know that I am painting with broad strokes here, but the impression I get is that there are some limited views on sexual orientation floating around the <not allowed> community. Gender and sexuality are often referred to as two wholly separate things. I posit that this is not true at all. However gender and sexuality are not intrinisically locked into an either/or dichotomy. You can be a straight crossdresser or a gay crossdresser. The only problem comes in from attaching negative sentiments to any of those terms. In my case, I was always afraid of being gay and crossdressing, so I presented as straight male to counter anyone calling me on crossdressing.

If you remove any negative attachments in your mind to the terms gay or straight, then what you have left are convenient labels to clear up any confusion as to "what way you swing." In this sense, presentation becomes seperate from sexuality in the one way that might matter most to a prospective partner that otherwise finds you emotionally and intellectually compatible; what exactly is under those knickers?

Bear in mind that I also prescribe to the Kinsey sliding scale of sexual orientation. Not everyone is all or nothing in any category, but having some broad labels to put things in perspective isn't necessarily a bad thing. It is what we do with the labels that makes them positive or negative.

As for the emotional and intellectual aspects of human relationships, not all straight people have the same kind of sex, nor do all gay people, and nor would I expect <not allowed> people to either. I can be a gay male who likes being feminine, but it doesn't make me a woman, regardless of how I present in or out of bed, if I am a guy finding romance with another guy. Or to call myself a male lesbian if I preferred sex with women but wear a dress does nothing but dilute perfectly good vocabulary words and further obfuscate what you and I already know: Love and romance is still love and romance regardless of what you look like or who it's with. Or at least that is how my overly tolerant mind and heart sees it.

I'm Paul Harvey and now you know the rest of the story.

jan c

Re: Sexually Confused . . .
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2006, 10:08:50 am »
OH this just became a rilly good thread, Madison. hey!
Until I came to Susan's it had never occurred to me that these questions of sexuality would be so prominent. I always imagined that out crossdressers and transitioning people would have all the answers, had it all worked out, had made it all make sense. But I guess I was less alone in my confusion than I thought.

And I base this more on the plumbing as it were, than on the emotional content of those relationships. Hetero or gay in my mind has everything to do with sexual orientation in relation to sexual organs.

The problem I see coming up time and time again in these types of discussions is some sort of stigma that trans people seem to place on the thought of being attracted to members of the same sex OUTSIDE of gender adjusted presentation. It's almost as if a male crossdresser can think it is disgusting/inappropriate for two men to share emotional and sexual energy, but if one of the "men" involved is presenting as a woman, it somehow makes it less disgusting/inappropriate.


Well now: one the major clues to me after all in these TS thing, as not imagining but Seeing Myself (have I mentioned that I was a teenage acidhead?) as a woman full on, you know receving.
And as I am so not tryina experience a failure of imagination in this, I can see that, well, that essential change in plumbing may need some, ahem, events of a very fulfilling nature.

I was never a crossdresser, this is more essential than clothing; like Eminem I was a little scared of something hidden (though not a textbook homophobe); shared energy with a male, not a problem, but anyone who can hook up a DVD player can tell you, a male plug does not fit a male jack.
And to ME, the option available seems a little less-than-authentic...
Make sense, Paul-(ine?)?

Wendy Cronkite sez "And that's the way it is".





gina_taylor

Re: Sexually Confused . . .
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2006, 03:23:43 pm »
Hey Madison,

You've brought up some very good points in your post.

Unfortunately society views cross-dressers adn transitioning people as the same, as in  terms of sexual orientation. They automatically think that a MtF prefers men and vice versa with the FtM.

Technically I really don't think it has anythingto do with the plumbing, but more on how a person really feels. As for myself, I just feel more attracted to men than I do to women, and that is more on an inner feeling thna it is on anything else.

I've been in situations where I've been at a Gender Friendly nightclub, and a gay person comes  up to me and he sees me as a woman, but he's only got one thing on his mind. I once sat and talked with a guy for a good hour before he did anything sexually with me. But that's a very good thought there  about  a male crossdresser  can think it is disgusting/inappropriate for two men to share emotional and sexual energy, but if one of the "men" involved is presenting as a woman, it somehow makes it less disgusting/inappropriate.

Gina  :)

Offline michelle

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Re: Sexually Confused . . .
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2006, 06:59:30 pm »
I know that I am a female.   I have never really been envolved in many sexual relationships.   When seeing men and women in public, I am sexually attracted to women.   I tend to think of the sexual act in  terms a long term relationship with another person.  I currently have a long term relationship with a female.   I have never had a long term relationship with a man  or any physical sexual relationship.  Whether this makes me gay or bi or not makes no sense to me.   Intellectually I can accept a relationship with a man, but I have never been in the presence of a man I would have a relationship with.   Life is simpler for me to leave sex out of my identity and be a person to other people.   Yes, I do like sex and have physically fathered six children.  Raising these children I have taken part in practically every male or female role except nursing and giving birth.    I guess my gender identity is female, I am monogogmus, and like many females will only have sex in the context of a long term relationship.
Be true to yourself.  The future will reveal itself in its own due time.    Find the calm at the heart of the storm.    I own my womanhood.

I am a 69-year-old transsexual school teacher grandma & lady.   Ethnically I am half Irish  and half Scandinavian.   I can be a real <not allowed> or quite loving and caring.  I have never taken any hormones or had surgery, I am out 24/7/365.

madison

Re: Sexually Confused . . .
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2006, 02:26:30 pm »
Michelle, your post would be a good example in my mind of utilizing the plumbing as the basis for the "orientiation" label. You are a male (physically) with a gender identity of female. You like women sexually and emotionally. I would "label" you as a hetero male (physically) with a female gender identity (emotionally).

I fear that this statement could offend some people, but it is not meant as such. And if this statement causes offense I believe it would be based on the statement I made previously regarding stigmas attached to the words gay/straight, male/female, and the psychological attachments we have placed on them. The problem I see is that so many of us are so confused by our sexual and gender identities, primarily due to the cultures we live in, and in an effort to make our reality seem normal to that society, we try to twist words and semantics to make everything seem normal, instead of making the reality normal.

If you were to transition Michelle, I would then change your sexual orientation to gay/lesbian. You would physically be a woman who identified as a woman who preferred woman romantically. Until that time, to use any other label only confuses the matter.

Somehow I feel it would be healthier for all of us in the long run, if we were more accepting of our own situations, especially if we have any desire of society of ever doing the same. In my case I would say that am a bi-sexual male (physically) with a partial female identity (emotionally). Is this more confusing to society, especially when I presenting in a feminine form? Yes. But it is the reality. I am a physical male with many feminine qualities.

Perhaps there would be less dysphoria in our community if we could learn to accept ourselves for who we are, the real selves, no matter how discombobulated that seems in everyday society. Ed Wood comes to mind as someone who knew who he was and labeled himself as such.

Know that I understand there are many gray areas when it comes to how we actually feel on the sexual and gender spectrums. I know that there are many crossdressers, that for any number of reasons, who will not transition, but in their hearts would prefer to be the opposite sex. These are the people I do not wish to offend or heap any more confusion onto. But this topic stems from the idea of being "labeled" and how to identify oneself. For those that wish to be the opposite gender, but will not end up transitioning, the reality still remains that you are your birth gender (physically) but feel and present as the opposite gender. The problem with using the sexual orientation labels as I have proposed, to my mind, is only because of the stigma we have placed on them, due to our own confusion. If crossdressers could proudly say in ordinary society, I am a man/woman who has a feminine identity, I feel as though so much confusion and dysphoria would melt away.

And it is this kind of thinking that could lead to a society where physical gender becomes a truly separate identifying factor from mental/emotional identity, and even stylistic identity (the appearance: clothes, mannerisms).

In that world, how you looked would not be locked to how you presented, would not be locked to how you thought/emoted, would not be locked to who you preferred to sleep with.

But then this begs the question (that has been posted in various forms on this site alone): What does it mean to be masculine/feminine or male/female?

Ultimately I only wish everyone the opportunity to find contentment and romance; regardless of how you choose to be labeled.

Find your day well.

gina_taylor

Re: Sexually Confused . . .
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2006, 04:23:27 pm »
I'd have to agree with Madison in her statement: If you were to transition Michelle, I would then change your sexual orientation to gay/lesbian. You would physically be a woman who identified as a woman who preferred woman romantically. Until that time, to use any other label only confuses the matter.

Gina  :)


Jennifer72

Re: Sexually Confused . . .
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2006, 10:37:42 pm »
I agree with Madison's statement. I have often questioned my own sexual labels and came to the same conclusion that Madison did.

gina_taylor

Re: Sexually Confused . . .
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2006, 03:49:41 pm »
The other night I was reading through "TRUE SELVES", and there was a section that had really caught my attention. It was were Mildred had wrote about the fact that if I know that I am a woman, than if I am dating a woman, then it will feel like a lesbian relationship. So naturally I would feel more comfortable dating men, without the stereotypical labels that go along with it. Technically I feel that I am more of a social butterfly as a woman and in my previous life I was like a wall flower.  :P So this more or less anwers my original question. Thanks for your imput ladies.  ;)

Gina  :)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2006, 05:49:21 am by gina_taylor »

Bmore

Re: Sexually Confused . . .
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2006, 08:57:59 pm »
Hi Madison, I always enjoy your posts but this discussion reminds me of some kinda of Aristotlean gender classification gone very awry or what happens when mutually exclusive definitions collide. You have to admit there is something funny about all these sexual and gender definitions clattering around like the Marx Brothers at a party. It's a little like some weird gender/sex DD game on psychotrops. But there is such a crazy sweet anarchy in the way we live, oh the confusing, maddening, surreal joy of it all. But then being reasonalble, makes for lousy art and being too easily explained- bad poetry.

gina_taylor

Re: Sexually Confused . . .
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2006, 05:55:04 am »
Very good point there River's Edge. Unfortunately, thanks to society, they're the ones who label everything. If they can't figure out what it is, they simply put a label on it, and like you said, after a while it gets very cluttered with all these sexual / gender definitions.

Gina  :)


DawnL

Re: Sexually Confused . . .
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2006, 07:36:58 am »
I don't really care what society thinks.  Like Melissa, I am uncertain of my sexual leanings right now.  I've always been attracted to women but I now recognize much of that was envy and remains so.  I have an interest in men but haven't met anyone I'd actually sleep with.  That interest may evaporate with my first actual encounter since I have a generally low opinion of men. 

What am I?  Only one way to find out.    ;)

Dawn

Offline Sarah Louise

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Re: Sexually Confused . . .
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2006, 10:09:25 am »
Sexually confused, who knows.  Things have happened to me in the past that make it impossible for me to even let a man shake my hand or touch me.  How could I have (well, you know what).

Sarah L.

Today my mind is in such a fog (and I am twitching and shaking like a leaf in the wind, I have no idea why).
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"

Bmore

Re: Sexually Confused . . .
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2006, 08:25:31 pm »
they're the ones who label everything. If they can't figure out what it is, they simply put a label on it,Gina  :)

How very true, it's easier for them to name a thing than to ponder it. Here's what I feel, if you control the definitions you control everything (the exceptions are sent to the gulag). We all want defintions we can wrap ourselves around, I just don't want to borrow any from my oppressors. Well ok, I tried to borrow one or two, but they didn't have any that fit without chaffing.
A story comes to mind,sometime in Eden, when Adam had finished naming everything in the Garden, he stuffed it all away in the garage in neat little boxes, then he put those little sticky labels on it all. One day, Eve had a garage sale...

Offline Kate Thomas

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Re: Sexually Confused . . .
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2006, 03:14:04 am »
I recently read "Alice in Genderland" By Richard J. Novic M.D.
Her description of himself as a heterosexual crossdresser is a bit confusing as she has both a steady boyfriend and a wife and family. he is a Psychiatrist so she is quite familiar with applying labels.
Its a great book and discusses in detail her struggles with CD expression and TS identity. he never explains the reasoning behind the hetro description. but from my point of view when she is dressed she is a woman and is attracted to men. when he is at home with wife and family he The man and is very attracted to women. making both the he and the she hetrosexual.
still confused?
yes..

Kate Alice
 
"But who is that on the other side of you?"
T.S. Eliot

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