Author Topic: Trans And Gay: The GID Diagnoses And "Gender Confusion"  (Read 2244 times)

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LostInTime

Trans And Gay: The GID Diagnoses And "Gender Confusion"
« on: November 20, 2006, 10:17:27 am »
link

It's not quite yet common knowledge in western society that there are significant differences between being a gay man and being transgender woman, but more and more people are becoming aware that being gay and being transgender are pretty far from the same thing.

However, it appears that in the collective minds of NARTH, there's barely a line between gay men and transwomen. Here's my educated guess as to why:

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There is a link for the first part of the series at the bottom of this installment.  Click on the link to read the rest and to check out the first installment.

Melissa

Re: Trans And Gay: The GID Diagnoses And "Gender Confusion"
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2006, 11:09:13 am »
The other day in Sociology my professor was talking about the third gender in ancient societies, and I was preparing for a possible discussion about transsexuality. He concluded that the third gender was evidence of homosexuality! I questioned him about this, but in his answer he made it evident that he doesn't know what a transsexual or a <transgender> person is; he just lumped it in with homosexuality.

I can handle when people say that transsexuality is wrong or weird, because I can refute that. I simply wasn't expecting complete ignorance from someone that has a PhD in Sociology.
I personally wouldn't classify transsexuals as a "third gender", but as someone who identifies as either a female and was born male or a male and was born female.  Perhaps and androgyne might be counted as a third gender. 

Now whether we admit it or not, there are some ties between <transgender> and sexual preference.  For instance if you are interested in females and you identify as male, then your sexual preference is straight, but if your interest remains the same, but you identify as female, then your sexual preference would be lesbian.  So, in a way there is some linkage.  Also the fact that as some people transition, their preference changing also suggests additional linkage.  Now the biggest difference is they are 2 independent variables on separate scales that are linked, rather than 2 sides to the same scale as many people believe.

Melissa

Steph

Re: Trans And Gay: The GID Diagnoses And "Gender Confusion"
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2006, 11:37:09 am »
link

It's not quite yet common knowledge in western society that there are significant differences between being a gay man and being transgender woman, but more and more people are becoming aware that being gay and being transgender are pretty far from the same thing.

However, it appears that in the collective minds of NARTH, there's barely a line between gay men and transwomen. Here's my educated guess as to why:

----------------
There is a link for the first part of the series at the bottom of this installment.  Click on the link to read the rest and to check out the first installment.

Are these guys for real.  I agree that being transsexual doesn't mean you're gay and visa versa.  But I would read their words with caution.  Ex-gays ?  Ya right.  Read this:

http://www.exgaywatch.com/blog/archives/2005/04/the_exgay_watch.html

Steph


Posted on: November 20, 2006, 10:18:28 AM
The other day in Sociology my professor was talking about the third gender in ancient societies, and I was preparing for a possible discussion about transsexuality. He concluded that the third gender was evidence of homosexuality! I questioned him about this, but in his answer he made it evident that he doesn't know what a transsexual or a <transgender> person is; he just lumped it in with homosexuality.

I can handle when people say that transsexuality is wrong or weird, because I can refute that. I simply wasn't expecting complete ignorance from someone that has a PhD in Sociology.
I personally wouldn't classify transsexuals as a "third gender", but as someone who identifies as either a female and was born male or a male and was born female.  Perhaps and androgyne might be counted as a third gender. 

Now whether we admit it or not, there are some ties between <transgender> and sexual preference.  For instance if you are interested in females and you identify as male, then your sexual preference is straight, but if your interest remains the same, but you identify as female, then your sexual preference would be lesbian.  So, in a way there is some linkage.  Also the fact that as some people transition, their preference changing also suggests additional linkage.  Now the biggest difference is they are 2 independent variables on separate scales that are linked, rather than 2 sides to the same scale as many people believe.

Melissa

I simply can't agree that being transsexual is a third gender as the word refers to a condition not a gender.  If it did mean a third gender then there would be a need for many more additional genders - MtF TS, FtM TS, MtF TS Lesbian, MtF TS bi, MtF TS Gay, and so on with FtM TS's  Additionally homosexualism is a sexual orientation, just as hetrosexualism, and Bisexualism is a sexual orientation.  It would be nice if these people would talk to us about who, what, and why we are TS and not hypothesize and propose their learned view all the time.

Steph

Sheila

Re: Trans And Gay: The GID Diagnoses And "Gender Confusion"
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2006, 11:47:37 am »
This is my opinion. The  line between Gay man and a Trans women, No, there is no line, It is a huge canyon between the two. I say I have been female in my mind all my life and tried to act male cause that is what my mom and society wanted. I was there to please. I know some 'transsexuals' have been attracted to women and have married women, like me I got married, but then they got tired of the denial phase and found their true selves and now feel they want a guy in their life. For me, I love my partner and I think that I have always been lesbian. I believe that if I was born with the female anatomy I would have been a lesbian. Its too bad my partner doesn't see it that way, but that is a long story. I really don't believe in the third gender, think there are only two genders in this world and that we have a blending of the two genders. Right in the middle would be the androgynous people. I don't mean bisexual. They are truely of two genders. I don't think that I'm of two genders, I'm female that had some mistakes made in the womb. Now the difference between someone who has preference to another and being of one gender is a huge difference.
Sheila

Melissa

Re: Trans And Gay: The GID Diagnoses And "Gender Confusion"
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2006, 01:14:43 pm »
I personally wouldn't classify transsexuals as a "third gender", but as someone who identifies as either a female and was born male or a male and was born female.

I simply can't agree that being transsexual is a third gender as the word refers to a condition not a gender.
That's pretty much what I said Steph. :)

Melissa

Steph

Re: Trans And Gay: The GID Diagnoses And "Gender Confusion"
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2006, 01:40:55 pm »
I personally wouldn't classify transsexuals as a "third gender", but as someone who identifies as either a female and was born male or a male and was born female.

I simply can't agree that being transsexual is a third gender as the word refers to a condition not a gender.
That's pretty much what I said Steph. :)

Melissa

Yep I was just addingmy 2 cents :)

Steph

Chaunte

Re: Trans And Gay: The GID Diagnoses And "Gender Confusion"
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2006, 06:44:21 pm »
The other day in Sociology my professor was talking about the third gender in ancient societies, and I was preparing for a possible discussion about transsexuality. He concluded that the third gender was evidence of homosexuality! I questioned him about this, but in his answer he made it evident that he doesn't know what a transsexual or a <transgender> person is; he just lumped it in with homosexuality.

I can handle when people say that transsexuality is wrong or weird, because I can refute that. I simply wasn't expecting complete ignorance from someone that has a PhD in Sociology.

To quote the Wizard of Oz, "I can't give you brains, but I can give you a degree."

Chaunte

Steph

Re: Trans And Gay: The GID Diagnoses And "Gender Confusion"
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2006, 06:56:20 pm »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender#The_Indian_subcontinent
To summarize: 'berdache' may signify a category of male human beings who fill an established social status other than that of man or woman (Blackwood 1984; Williams 1986: 1993); a category of male and female human beings who behave and dress 'like a member of the opposite sex' (Angelino & Shedd 1955; Jacobs 1968; and Whitehead 1981); or categories of male and female human beings who occupy well established third or fourth genders (Callender & Kochems 1983a; 1983b; Jacobs 1983; Roscoe 1987; 1994). Scheffler (1991: 378), however, sees Native American cases of 'berdache' and 'amazon' as 'situations in which some men (less often women) are permitted to act, in some degree, as though they were women (or men), and may be spoken of as though they were women (or men), or as anomalous 'he-she' or 'she-he'.' In Scheffler's view (1991: 378), '[e]thnographic data cited by Kessler and McKenna (1978), and more recently by Williams (1986), provide definitive evidence that such persons were not regarded as having somehow moved from one sex (or in Kessler and McKenna's terms, gender) category to the other, but were only metaphorically "women" (or "men")'. In other words, according to Scheffler, we need not imagine a multiple gender system. Individuals who appeared in the dress and/or occupation of the opposite sex were only metaphorically spoken of as members of that sex or gender."[28]

My apologies. Should have used the word berdache instead of the phrase third gender (though I'm pretty sure he introduced them as synoynms). It looks like we're included in that paragraph.

Hello there, no need to apologize hon.  You may want to check out the articles in our very own Wiki that cover the following topics:

Two-spirit
Berdache (already mentioned)
Evening people
Fakaleiti
Galli
Hijra
Kathoey
Winkte
Xanith
Takatäpui

Those who fall into the above listed groups are also refered to at times as the third gender.

Steph

LostInTime

Re: Trans And Gay: The GID Diagnoses And "Gender Confusion"
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2006, 09:26:41 am »
Gender Identity and sexual orientation are independent of one another even though the sexual component is very much a part of one's gender identity and vice versa.  Also gender socialization is different from culture to culture and then changes when exposed to a new host culture.  That is to say that gender and the perception thereof change for each culture.  Plus society continues to change.  Back in the 30s a woman wearing trousers in a film was a HUGE deal and now, not so much.  Going back to the part of where gender changes from one culture to the next and then has to deal with host cultures.  African American men and women are socialized in a far different way than the dominant white culture here in the U.S.  So not only do they see gender in a bit of a different way in which the have been taught and perceive their role to be but they also have to deal with the fact that their ways do not exactly synch to the current dominant culture. 

Of course other, more exotic cultures have been noted.  One study listed several cross-cultural supernumerary gender precedents.  In the Native American Two-Spirit traditions you have the Lakota Winkte, the Navaho Nadle, and the North Piegan Manly Hearts.  There are also the  Hindu Tantric and Hijra sects, the European Castrati, The Madagascar Sekrata, the Tahitian Mahu, and even the Islamic Xanith, Khawal, and Sufi traditions.

Now when we view the DSM guide there is one gender variant in which gender and sexuality plays a direct role in the diagnosis and that is transvestic fetishism (302.3).  This diagnosis stands out because it states that the person must be male AND heterosexual in order to meet the definition.

Gender identity is something that most people do not think about nor focus on but that is changing as more and more studies examine the individual parts of the various cultures in societies like the US and the UK.  Plus there seems to be a very serious attitude on the part of academics (and most certainly the corporate culture) in regards to the study of transgender and transsexual individuals.

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