Author Topic: "Can children be transvestites?"  (Read 7783 times)

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VanessaUniP

"Can children be transvestites?"
« on: November 29, 2010, 04:50:25 am »
Hey guys!

Me and my friend Anne are supposed to do a debate on wether children can be transvestites or not.
We googled what it means and we were looking through loads of different communities but we are still not sure what our opinion is.
One of us HAS to be PRO and one of us HAS to be CON. We are having some kind of troubles coming up with arguments for that topic.

We really hope that you can give us some insight into the topic and maybe even some opinions of yours!


Sincerely,

Vanessa and Anne

Offline spacial

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Re: "Can children be transvestites?"
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2010, 05:46:23 am »
Think you'll find there are a huge number on here who, as children, knew they had a serious problem and deperately wanted to do something about it.

In my case, I was 4 years old. I certainly tried, whenever I could, to wear female clothing. Sadly, the time and place wasn't right.

I do have to say though, that it really depends upon what you mean. If you mean, do children like dressing up? Yes.

If you mean, do very young children get any sort of erotic thrill from dressing up? Hope not.

If you mean, do very young children know their outward sex and what they know and feel are in conflict? Definately.

VanessaUniP

Re: "Can children be transvestites?"
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2010, 05:59:47 am »
Hey!

First of all, thank you very much for replying and sharing your personal experience!

The last part of your answer is definitely what we wanted to know.We want to know if there is something like "crossdressing" or "being a transvestite" among children.
It´s not that we want to know if children like dressing up. We know that most of them do, it´s definitely more about wether children know what situation they are in referring to their actual sex and having the desire to dress up as the opposite. That´s what we want to know.
As we said, the question of our debate is "Can children be transvestites?" and now we are looking for an answer in order to form our PRO and CON statements.

Again, thank you very much! And we certainly hope that there are more answers to come:)

Offline tekla

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Re: "Can children be transvestites?"
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2010, 07:37:14 am »
I began very, very early.  However I did not, and do not, consider it a 'serious problem.'  And children can be very erotic in their own way, with themselves and with others, to assume otherwise is to ignore human nature.
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Offline Susan Baum

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Re: "Can children be transvestites?"
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2010, 08:52:26 am »
I have a question - how do you define a child? - Or transvestite?  Maybe your thesis needs some clarification. 

I began very, very early.

I also began my journey during my pre-pubescent years (late 1950's - early 60's) when I realized just how comfortable and natural I felt in girl's clothes.  I knew I was a "boy" and still wanted to be a boy, but this other part of me was equally valid.  To many, the  term "transvetite" conjures up a sexual or erotic meaning but I didn't even have a clue what "sex" was. 
Consider a couple of girls I went to grade school with - both dressed in jeans and guy's boots instead of dresses as was the "norm" of the day.  Could they have been considered crossdressers?  At the time, the answer would have been "Of course" - but fast forward a decade and beyond, their attire was typical. 
I'm sure you have found several sites where parents or children are "open" about being transgendered (MtF and FTM) and most of them have been aware of their GID since their earliest memories.  Are these young people transvestites?  I say no - they're just adopting the clothing of their psychological being. 

My two cent's worth,
Susan

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Offline tekla

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Re: "Can children be transvestites?"
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2010, 09:06:21 am »
a sexual or erotic meaning but I didn't even have a clue what "sex" was.

I used the word erotic and not sexual because I think it's much closer (even though in some ways, it's much worse) to what children experience.  It's not sexual, in that it's not defined and centered on the sexual organs performing a sexual function, but on a much more animal-level sense of pleasure at the sensual level - in the universes of the senses - that children do a much better job of living in that adults do. 

You might not have had a clue as to what 'sex' was, but you did know what felt good.  You didn't understand sex, but you were coming to understand yourself, and perhaps others.  That whole area of study is taboo - but sexual and erotic behavior in children (under the age of puberty) is pretty widespread - and that's totally sans adults.
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Offline Susan Baum

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Re: "Can children be transvestites?"
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2010, 09:14:26 am »
Tekla, your point is well taken and well phrased.  Thank you.

I used the word erotic and not sexual because I think it's much closer (even though in some ways, it's much worse) to what children experience.  It's not sexual, in that it's not defined and centered on the sexual organs performing a sexual function, but on a much more animal-level sense of pleasure at the sensual level - in the universes of the senses - that children do a much better job of living in that adults do. 

Susan
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Offline spacial

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Re: "Can children be transvestites?"
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2010, 10:29:30 am »
Vanessa and Anne

For my part, at about 4 years, I wanted to play with the girls. I didn't like boys.

I knew my body was wrong. I knew I didn't look like the girls and my clothes were different.

I had no idea of sex, or the details of girls anatomy. I thought breasts were a single lump, a shelf for babies and that girls peed out of their bottoms, because I once saw my older sister sitting down.

I should also say that, at the time, late 50s, I was not permitted to play with the girls.

Now we could annalyse all sorts of things here, depending upon which point we postualte was the start.

We could say that I was just a small boy, lacking decent male role models, lacking self confidence, who sought out the company of girls because they are easier than boys. I then progressed to their clothes and their physical appearance, partly for the same reason, partly as an early stage of physical attraction. Children frequenctly seek to emulate what they admire.

Or we could say that I have female instincts. That I was drawn to girls because of these and something innate inside of me, found my male body distasteful and out of place.

Or anything in between.

To the first point. Seeking out girls since they are easier than boys. Does that mean girls really are weak, inadequate, lesser?

To the second point, the notion of female instincts is, at best, questionable, at worst, specious.

For my part, I prefer to take the position of self expression. Anyone who has ever dealt with young children, even babies under a year old, will know that personal preferences and opinions occur very early. I can't see why anyone shouldn't be permitted to express themselves as they choose. Is there any reason why a little girl can't wear jeans and play sports? Is there any reason why a little boy can't wear a pretty dress and play with dolls?

What, exactly, is the purpose of the gender demarcation, especially in children?

Some people, men, might argue that boys need to be taught to be tough at an early age. Now setting aside the internationally recognised criminal nature of what I'd like to do with these child bullying scum, the claim has no actual basis in fact or experience.

One obvious piece of evidence for this is that many young boys have been raised with brothers, each in an identical way. Subjected to the same nurtring and love, or abuse and neglect. There are ample examples of one boy turning out to be a raging queer with efiminate tendencies while the others develop generally normal hetrosexual realtionships that would raise the blood pressure of most passing femininsts.

So, my own position for what it's worth, is, I don't need to justify anything. I try to live a decent law abiding life. I pay my taxes. I do what I can to contribute to my society.

I see no reason why I or anyone else, cannot exprss myself according to personal preferences

JoanneTV

Re: "Can children be transvestites?"
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2010, 11:20:44 am »
In children at a young age, its more curiosity than anything. I was curious it felt good, it was different until I got caught. I continued, I didn't add the sexual experiance until the age of 12. Now days there are kids at a really young age that admit that they're in the wrong body, here I think "Gender" plays a role. Can kids be trans, I would say yes, if they know their gender is wrong, and that discovery can happen at anytime. 

Offline cynthialee

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Re: "Can children be transvestites?"
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2010, 12:38:07 pm »
I began very, very early.  However I did not, and do not, consider it a 'serious problem.'  And children can be very erotic in their own way, with themselves and with others, to assume otherwise is to ignore human nature.
THIS!
I was a highly sexual creature as a child. Probably more so then, than as an adult.
EDIT: However cross dressing did not become part of my sexual exploration until much later in my early teens, I knew I was trans by the age of 9. (I just chose to run from that all my life.)
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'

VanessaUniP

Re: "Can children be transvestites?"
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2010, 10:17:24 am »
First of all : Thank you all very much for answering! It´s really interesting to hear/read about all those experiences and opinions! It really helped so far and we were definitely able to wrap our minds a little further around it!

@ Susan: Thank you very much for your response! We would like to answer the following question you asked :

I have a question - how do you define a child? - Or transvestite?  Maybe your thesis needs some clarification. 

How do we define a child? This is a really tough question we had to ask ourselves too. We know that our teacher didn't give us the best thesis here, because "child" is very vague and we also think that one shouldn't do a debate on sexuality and whether there is or isn't transvestism among children.

Anyway, we did a lot of research on what/who is considered a child and we came up with the answer - or better the suggestion- that we would define a child up to the age of 14/15. This is when "children" should be able to make valid decisions etc.
I think our teacher actually meant people that age (up to 14/15) because we wouldn't say that someone older than 15 can still be seen as the childlike child (even though there are, of course, exceptions). (you know what I mean?)

We still have to say that we´re in no way sure about this "age"-definition. There are always exceptions : People acting more mature than they are etc. What would you say? To what age are children children?

As for the term "transvestite" we are not quite sure. Everything that we googled had some classification like "Cross-dressing persons find pleasure in dressing like the opposite sex, still, they don't want to change their real sex.". As far as we understood this is different from being transgender, where people really DO have the feeling of being in the wrong body and desperately wanting to change their real sex into the one desired. How do you define "transvestism"?

Thanks in advance :)

Vanessa and Anne

P.S.: we would really like to hear some more opinions and experiences, if available;) thank you!!

Offline spacial

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Re: "Can children be transvestites?"
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2010, 12:23:14 pm »
Vanessa and Anne

With your latest post, I now realise that you are seeking views on a specific issue, cross dressing, while excluding transgender.

This is, of course, a perfectly acceptable defination. However, I assumed you were referring to cross dressing in children, to include those who seek to changer their gender. I now realise you are not looking at this latter group at all.

I am transgender. I have not managed to do anything significant about it, other than to develop mental and thinking stratagies to deal with it.

When I was a child, I was transgender. But those around me, who knew, tended to think of me as a cross dresser. I was dragged around various medical and such institutions. Labels tended to cycle between being sick, evil, possessed, worthless, coward.

I do apologis for misunderstanding you here. I realise that the information you are seeking is completely different.

best of luck.

VanessaUniP

Re: "Can children be transvestites?"
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2010, 04:11:22 pm »
@spacial:

Oh, that's okay:) We are actually very thankful for your posts! They helped a lot, even though they are regarding transgender!

We are really grateful for the fact that you guys are really trying to help and that you share your experiences with us! It's is really nice to see that this is an open community and that's great.
In an other community they deleted our post, which is actually kinda sad because we ARE interested in the topic, otherwise we wouldn't have chosen it!

Again, thank all of you very very much!

Sincerely,

Vanessa and Anne

Offline Susan Baum

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Re: "Can children be transvestites?"
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2010, 06:34:21 pm »
Vanessa and Anne - Thank for your interest and honesty towards and with all of us here - we are all real people and we do respond in kind. 

Since you broadened "child" to include younger teens, I think you would find a fair number of us started crossdressing within that age group and I would answer your premise with a resounding yes.  

As I wrote,  I began my journey during my pre-teen years and it became more defined as I entered my early teens.  My first semi-public outing was when I was about 12 - my sister and I went to a Halloween party in matching witch dresses.  I "knew" long before then that society called it "wrong" but...   I decline to answer about my maturity however I still like to splash water puddles... 

In children at a young age, its more curiosity than anything. I was curious it felt good, it was different until I got caught. I continued...
Curiosity had to have been a factor and it DID feel good but I was fortunate in that my mother did not become hysterical when I got caught (my father was a different story altogether) but quietly bought me a some better fitting panties and stashed them in my underwear drawer.  (My sister was upset because I had worn her's.)  I acquired more clothes as time passed and I moved into my later teens but was still closeted to the rest of the world - the place, for the most part,  I continue to reside.   

I will also concur with your general definition for transvestite because it fits me to a "T."  (No, I'm not sorry.  What was I saying about maturity?)  We all understand the pitfalls of broad generalizations and some could quibble and nibble at it but it is generally accurate and manages to avoid less-than-family-friendly connotations. 

More questions - just ask.  Please us posted on how the debate goes or progresses.
Susan

(Edit: add forgotten comment SB)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 06:56:38 am by Susan Baum »
Aging is inevitable - growing up is optional.

VanessaUniP

Re: "Can children be transvestites?"
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2010, 07:08:00 am »
Hey guys :)

We just wanted to tell you Merry Christmas!! And wanted to inform you that the debate went really well (got an A on it:) ), we want to thank all of you for your support and your help and especially for sharing all your personal experiences with us!!

We wish you and all your loved ones a Merry Christmas and wonderful christmas holidays!

Sincerely,

Vanessa and Anne

Offline spacial

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Re: "Can children be transvestites?"
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2010, 07:18:37 am »
Thank you Vanessa and Anne for getting back. So plesd that we were able to give you some information.

Really hope you both have a wondeful time as well

Hermione01

Re: "Can children be transvestites?"
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2010, 07:09:13 pm »
I would like to know what kind of school would even contemplate to have a debate about whether children can be transvestites? Sounds bogus to me.  :-\

Transvestite is one who derives sexual pleasure from dressing in clothes of opposite sex.  :-\ 

The debate, if it actually happened, was definitely crossing the line.   

Offline cynthialee

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Re: "Can children be transvestites?"
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2010, 07:28:19 pm »
To put our heads in the sand and pretend that children do not have sexual feelings and ideas is silly. It may be an uncomfortable topic for some but in the class room setting in the right field of study it is apropriate.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'

Offline spacial

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Re: "Can children be transvestites?"
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2010, 04:00:30 am »
To put our heads in the sand and pretend that children do not have sexual feelings and ideas is silly. It may be an uncomfortable topic for some but in the class room setting in the right field of study it is apropriate.

Absolutely agree.

Though I recall, in 1985, being told by a very famous and distinguished child psychiatrist, who at the time was in her 70s, that young boys don't get errections, that children don't masturbate before pubitry and prior to pubitry, any  thoughts children may have about sex are no more than curiosity and about as valid as those a blind person might have on colour.

It was put a little less forcefully, to be fair, but that is what it all amounted to.

Hermione01

Re: "Can children be transvestites?"
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2010, 04:44:48 am »
To put our heads in the sand and pretend that children do not have sexual feelings and ideas is silly. It may be an uncomfortable topic for some but in the class room setting in the right field of study it is apropriate.
I beg to differ. It's silly to call any child a transvestite.

Absolutely agree.

Though I recall, in 1985, being told by a very famous and distinguished child psychiatrist, who at the time was in her 70s, that young boys don't get errections, that children don't masturbate before pubitry and prior to pubitry, any  thoughts children may have about sex are no more than curiosity and about as valid as those a blind person might have on colour.

It was put a little less forcefully, to be fair, but that is what it all amounted to.

And you know the mind of other children? You can account for your own childhood, not others.

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