Susan's Place Transgender Resources

"If a woman had a libido that could actually rival a young male's, I'd wonder if that person had a history of childhood sexual abuse, higher than average testosterone levels, brain trauma or other neurological condition, a sex addict, or a bipolar having a manic or hypomanic episode in which hypersexuality is one of its manifestations."

A transsexual made the above statement to me, and claimed that no transsexual disagrees. I'm a genetic woman and based on my experience in life, I strongly disagree. This TS claims that HRT in MtoFs causes a significant drop in the sex drive, that hormones affect MtoFs and genetic females exactly the same, therefore genetic women must be by nature less sexual than men. But I'm skeptical that the TS in question is representative of your community. So I thought I'd ask some other transsexuals about this topic.

Quote from: Cait on November 25, 2005, 09:50:04 AM


A transsexual made the above statement to me, and claimed that no transsexual disagrees. 

This is a false premise based on stating that no transexual disagrees.

I have had none of the described symptoms and my libido is just fine thank you very much.

Leigh

Quote from: Leigh on November 25, 2005, 10:38:07 AM
This is a false premise based on stating that no transexual disagrees.
I have had none of the described symptoms and my libido is just fine thank you very much.

Have to agree.  This type of blanket statement is almost always wrong.  One of the conditions applies in my case and after several years of therapy, I am reasonably certain that it has had little effect on my libido.  Further, my T level is below 20--lower than many natal women--and my libido hasn't declined significantly, so there goes another blanket statement about loss of libido with hrt.

Dawn

This is pretty much what I expected, but it's good to read it nonetheless. Thanks for your thoughts!

                 

Quote"If a woman had a libido that could actually rival a young male's, I'd wonder if that person had a history of childhood sexual abuse, higher than average testosterone levels, brain trauma or other neurological condition, a sex addict, or a bipolar having a manic or hypomanic episode in which hypersexuality is one of its manifestations."

[/b]



            That is a ridiculous statement that is false and sexist.   It sounds as if this comes from a place that still contains male baggage.

beth

Well, I had "male parts" for 24 years and a strong sex drive.

For the next 10 or 15 years (post-op) I was on HRT and had a moderate sex drive.

For about 10 years after that, I wasn't on any hormones and had a low sex drive.

For the past 3 months, I have been back on estrogen and, let's see, how can I put this delicately? Any male that steps through my door isn't getting out!  :o :o :o

This has got to be the biggest load of horse hockey I've seen in some time. Who the heck is your friend hanging out with Sigmund Freud's great grandson?

Cassie

I've had a bio female friend who has a much much higher sex drive than me. I feel like I'm only starting to catch up with her now that I'm on hefty doses of T. T increased my sex drive, but it doesn't follow that for all people, testosterone is necessary for a sex drive. Plenty of women have perfectly healthy sex drives and perfectly healthy mental status.

Dennis

This line of thinking seems to be not that far removed from those who think that female circumcision is necessary.

Shelley

Ahem... *I* am the one who made that statement...

The original poster is a very disturbed young woman who has been a BIG nuisance over on the Wikipedia website (a free encyclopedia website that allows visitors to edit the articles). She has vandalized transgender articles by inserting transphobic statements insinuating that transsexuals are delusional, comparing transsexuals to someone who wants to be and believes to be a rhinoceros or pink elephant, has called MTF transsexuals "men" and has used male pronouns against us, originally she made comments to a Gay transman by using female pronouns towards him and calling him "female/woman," calling him a Nazi doctor, calling his partner a ">-bleeped-<," attacking my religious beliefs (I'm very much influenced by Wicca), and has used Michael J. Bailey's book 'The Man Who Would Be Queen' in defense. She has called either me or him or both of us "jerk," "a**hole," "moron," "idiot/idiotic/idiotcy," "ignorant," "bigot," "illiterate," "stupidly wrong" (?!?!), etc., etc. Both of us have tried to be civil with her and I personally have not called her any names. To me, she is the only one who is seething with hate and anger.

She misquotes, quotes out of context, twists what you say, exaggerates what you say, etc. She also pretends to be multiple people to help her in defense and to boost her arguments.


This was my first post to her on Wikipedia (the original author of this thread):

               I am sorry to have to inform you that the sources you rely on to maintain your argument that transsexual women are much less sexual are subpar and not to be taken seriously at all. A FAQ for a newsgroup? ::shakes head:: It is very obvious to me that you are completely ignorant regarding MtF transsexual HRT. Like I have recently added to the MtF HRT section of this article,

                "Transgender women report a sometimes significant reduction in libido, all depending upon the dosage of anti-androgens. A small number of post-operative transsexual women may take small amounts of testosterone to boost the libido. Many pre-operative transsexual women simply wait until after sex-reassignment surgery to begin an active sex life (due to how they feel towards their genitals and/or an aversion to anal sex) and for post-operative transsexual women how satisfied they are with the results. Progestogens can both raise one's libido and encourage female libidinal feelings."

                It is not a physiological difference between transwomen and natal women but much more to do with psychological differences in how one views their own genitals and sex in general. Obviously, if you were born with the wrong genitals and were forced to experience high levels of testosterone during puberty that can lead to all sorts of unwanted, shameful, and embarrasing thoughts and actions you would come away with quite a different viewpoint. Also to be considered are the men who have "a thing" for transsexual women (both pre-, non-, and post-operative) that actually think we'd do the things that are shown on "she-male" pornography websites. Almost all transsexual women want the sex drive reduced significantly, and reasons for this are psychological. We are not becoming "something else."

                If you take a real close look at the male and female anatomies, the only real difference is the presense of the uterus in the female; the rest are structure placement differences, all the tissues are basically the same, just programmed by our genes to develop in different ways. If a MtF was allowed to start effective levels of HRT prior to the onset of male puberty and SRS was not performed in the interim, by age twenty the only observable physical differences would be in the genital region, everything else would be "obviously" female, from cranial development on down, with everything comparable to the natal females in the family. Male and female reproductive organs and genitals both arise from the same tissue. By default, the main pathway is the female. But only when the tiny and practically empty Y chromosome is present, does the embryo take the male divergent path. The only difference is hormones and it's triggered by a single region on the Y chromosome. We, transsexual women, are born psychologically and neurologically female (having discovered through brain studies that no other researchers have even attempted to counter, unlike certain studies concerning sexual orientation and even those counter studies have their weaknesses as well). Hormones make us biochemically and mostly anatomically (particularly in the way of dermal, adipose, and muscular tissue) female, and tend to develop diseases/disorders that tend occur in females (due to our biochemical makeup) save for the obvious (uterine, ovarian, cervical, etc., cancers).

                One would think that transsexual men and women would have a unique perspective and take on this matter. Furthermore, spitefully using the wrong pronouns when referring to a transsexual person is extremely rude and hurtful. This "stereotype" you speak of is simply not comparable. It is as hurtful to us as it is hurtful to an African-American being called ">-bleeped-<."

Thankyou WiccaIrish,

For taking the time to explain the situation. As you can see from our posts it was the "always" inference that we took exception to as well as the claim that a high libido inferred some psychological damage through mistreatment.

I am sorry that you have been the subject of the sort of treatment you describe and respect the fact that you have chosen to put forward a reasoned and reasonable point of view on this subject.

I would also like to think that you would understand the basis behind our responses and not see us in the same light as the individual that you have described.

I would hope also that you may choose to post on a subject that is less unsavoury than that which have posted today.

Thanks again,

Shelley

Quote from: Shelley on November 26, 2005, 07:12:39 AM
Thankyou WiccaIrish,

For taking the time to explain the situation. As you can see from our posts it was the "always" inference that we took exception to as well as the claim that a high libido inferred some psychological damage through mistreatment.

I am sorry that you have been the subject of the sort of treatment you describe and respect the fact that you have chosen to put forward a reasoned and reasonable point of view on this subject.

I would also like to think that you would understand the basis behind our responses and not see us in the same light as the individual that you have described.

I would hope also that you may choose to post on a subject that is less unsavoury than that which have posted today.

Thanks again,

Shelley

Oh, it is quite alright. Unfortunately this very heated, very long discussion (argument?) has been going on since April (!). I have no idea why that particular individual is so driven and angry.

Hopefully she will not continue disturbing these boards here.

Ladies, after reviewing the Wikipedia thread that started this subject I want to be sure offer both of you some very good advice. It's ok to agree to disagree. Civility has never hurt anyones argument. On this site we have room for every point of view. Each of you brings a unique point of view to the Wikipedia's HRT discussions, you are welcome to contribute them here as well. One of you represents the Transgender view and one of you represent the Genetically born woman's point of view. That's what the Wikipedia and my web site is all about. Together you two should be able to work together to put together a comprehensive article of which both of you can agree with.

Quote from: Susan on November 26, 2005, 11:53:49 AM
Ladies, after reviewing the Wikipedia thread that started this subject I want to be sure offer both of you some very good advice. It's ok to agree to disagree. Civility has never hurt anyones argument. On this site we have room for every point of view. Each of you brings a unique point of view to the Wikipedia's HRT discussions, you are welcome to contribute them here as well. One of you represents the Transgender view and one of you represents the Genetically born woman's point of view. That's what the Wikipedia and my web site is all about. Together you two should be able to work together to put together a comprehensive article with which both of you can agree.

Wow this is old...... One... I deffinatly have to disagree with that statement.... and two... its not true that HRT for m2f's decreases there labido nesicarily<sp>

Pre HRT my T level was only 85... low for a guy... and little to no drive......

Durring HRT.... my T level is nearly nothing...... and my labido rivals my Ex fiences... and she could make any guy look like a slacker inthat dept....  <Im not actualy that bad but its a VERY noticable increase rather than decrease....>  and its really anoying..............  Sorry... had one of "those" nights so I appologise if this sounds rantish... its not ment to be......

Also had low T and an extremely low sex drive.  Now the T is lower and the sex drive is about the same.  Dated one young woman with a very healthy sex drive and had blood panels done routinely and nothing was ever amiss, at least not enough to comment to her (and she would have mentioned).

My pre-HRT sex drive was normal I guess I just didn't like acting on it since it involved taking on the "male" role.  As the years went on pre-HRT my libido didn't change but my ability to follow through with sex did.  I pretty much stopped any dating in my 30's however it became necessary to occasionally do so to keep my "secret" (amazing how far you can take something just avoid facing an inevitable truth).  Any orgasms during this time were rare which was chalked up to just having incredible stamina.  Truth was I was struggling to simply perform the act. 

My sex drive on HRT is ZERO which doesn't bother me at all, I'll worry about sex after SRS.  I do know that when I have stopped my androgen blockers my sex drive came back quickly.  I think each person is different ...there's a lot of different schematics you can use to build a radio.

I would say that any loss in libido would be from the mental state of the person.  I will say this, since starting HRT, if I am not in the mood, its not going to happen.  With T any cute lil thing could turn it on, but now I am in full control.

"So how do you....?" they ask .  "well, on very special ocassions I will unlock my bedroom  door and..." I add. >:D



Interesting Tink.  I don't understand why people even bother to assume that a statment like that could be agreed by "all" transsexuals. That's just plain dumb. My gentitic girlfriend's sex drive is as high as mine, that's pretty high. But her's was non existant until we met, being she lived with a tyrant, whom she nearly hated. Everyone needs to remember outside of HRT, the reasons for sex drive and attraction is just, it is what it is, and our bodies react to emotion we have for another person. That is not about HRT. That is about being human. ;) 
                                                  Marco

Overall, I'd have to disagree with the statement. I might wonder if such a person has above average T, but obviously there's way more to it than that.

Speaking anecdotally, my natural T levels were a little on the high side :( and I had a high libido that got to be a bit much at times. So glad that's over with! I suppose it has gone down, but the change has been more qualitative then quantitative.

Quote from: Marcoour bodies react to emotion we have for another person. That is not about HRT. That is about being human.

There are a zillion ways to express emotion as human beings and as couples in a relationship, sex is just one way of doing it, just one way. ;)


tinkerbell :icon_chick:
                                                 

 
Question: "If a woman had a libido that could actually rival a young male's, I'd wonder if that person had a history of childhood sexual abuse, higher than average testosterone levels, brain trauma or other neurological condition, a sex addict, or a bipolar ha Agree  4 (12.1%)
Disagree  26 (78.8%)
Don't Know  3 (9.1%)
 
Total Voters: 28
============================

disagree
this is WHY it is best if males are under 25 and females are mid life..the sesx drive IS equal.
medically scientifically proven fact!

Disagree.

My wife doesn't fall into any of those conditions, yet I've often joked that she has the sex drive of an adolescent boy.

On the other hand, I had an above-average T level, and have very little sex drive (though conflicted emotional/psychological factors may have inhibited it).

As you might imagine, this doesn't make for a good match between us.