Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I've always assumed my motivation to "pass" has been driven for a desire not to be clocked. I don't like the weird stares. I don't like being misgendered by people who, once realizing I'm trans, can't drive the male image out of their heads. I like people to get to know me as a woman before they get to know me as a trans woman.

Now I'm wondering if it's that simple.

As I examine my motivations further, I think I fashioned my idea of what a woman looks like by looking at cis women. I hadn't met a trans woman until I was in my 20s. Maybe my ideal image of myself as a woman doesn't include someone who is recognizable as having been born with a male body.

I'm curious to hear from other transfolk of both genders. Is your interest in passing driven solely by practical concerns (social acceptance, for example), or does it run deeper? Is it somehow tied to your image of yourself as a member of your identified gender?

I think for a lot of people, passing is like winning a contest. Truthfully, c'mon, let's be truthful.....you can see male in the face of almost every woman here. Myself included, but I openly identify as a crossdresser, and I'm usually in male mode. I get misgendered so to speak with miss, ma'am and lots of corrections thrown in.  Anguish level out of me?  0%

Hugs, Devlyn

I don't know.  I went full time when I couldn't take another minute of "fake guy mode" and realized that I needed to start living for me instead of others' expectations.  I frankly didn't care anymore what anyone thought of me.  Let's face it, I got clocked a lot early on, but it didn't stop me. 

Honestly, passing is important to me. I would be lying if I said otherwise. But, at the same time, I'm not going to boast about it when I do. That would be super lame to do that. Having said all that, I don't like getting involved with that whole "do you think I pass" crap? I don't care about that stuff. I think it's stupid to be obsessed with that. I just go by how things are out in the world. That's all that matters to me.

I would have to say that passing is very important to me. I want people to see me on the outside how i see myself inside. I don't want anyone to doubt that I am a female, both inside and out. I think it would make my transition easier.
I would love to say I don't care how people see me or what they think but I just can't.

To me passing means a few things.

The first is that passing validates me as a woman in the eyes of others, and that impacts how I am treated. The quality of life I have I attribute to passing beyond even my personality or mental attributes because if people label you as something, they will treat you as such so I need them to label me as "woman" in their mind.

The second is that, I am so over being trans. I mean seriously who wants to deal with gender being thrust into areas of their life where it doesn't have to be? The more I pass and the more I am treated like the woman I am, the less I have to deal with anything trans related. This makes my life at least a step closer to "normal" and it also takes a bunch of stress off of me that I would otherwise have. If I didn't pass it would eat at me everyday, that I kept having to explain to people and even to myself what I am.

The third, is that people seem to take me being a woman much more seriously, even if they know I wasn't born as one, if I look the part. It is like this for all things in life, if your lawyer is dressed in sweatpants then they won't be taken as seriously as a lawyer, no matter what degree they have. In my research of being trans, that absolute worse thing it seems to someones overall transition is not looking the part enough, and have people just not think that it is a serious deal.

So with those things in mind, it seems very simple that I would place a large emphasis on passing, because lots of my quality of life depends on it....Beyond that, it is also important to me because when I envision who I want to be ideally, that person doesn't look to have ever been male.

to borrow a famous  phrase " Frankly my dear I don't give a damn " My purpose is to not commit suicide , that's just my reality and not to be interpreted in any another way , but as to how I view the debate of 'P and non P'. Oh wait ! I think that's a millennium prize debate in mathematics . sorry. to answer the question , no , I truly don't give a damn  how others view my need to heal myself.

Passing isn't the most important part of my life but it does feel good when it happens, it's about a 50/50 toss up that I'll pass or not

More important to me is feeling comfortable in my own skin and not feeling like I have to front some kind of 'Mr. Man' facade to appease society 

Possibly some people will never accept me as a woman and some may always view me as a rather kind gentleman of sorts, but I don't let it bother me

I know who I am inside, if a few others cannot quite grasp or wrap their head around it, it is not my problem 

Quote from: Hikari on January 16, 2015, 10:37:50 PM
To me passing means a few things.

The first is that passing validates me as a woman in the eyes of others, and that impacts how I am treated. The quality of life I have I attribute to passing beyond even my personality or mental attributes because if people label you as something, they will treat you as such so I need them to label me as "woman" in their mind.

The second is that, I am so over being trans. I mean seriously who wants to deal with gender being thrust into areas of their life where it doesn't have to be? The more I pass and the more I am treated like the woman I am, the less I have to deal with anything trans related. This makes my life at least a step closer to "normal" and it also takes a bunch of stress off of me that I would otherwise have. If I didn't pass it would eat at me everyday, that I kept having to explain to people and even to myself what I am.

The third, is that people seem to take me being a woman much more seriously, even if they know I wasn't born as one, if I look the part. It is like this for all things in life, if your lawyer is dressed in sweatpants then they won't be taken as seriously as a lawyer, no matter what degree they have. In my research of being trans, that absolute worse thing it seems to someones overall transition is not looking the part enough, and have people just not think that it is a serious deal.

So with those things in mind, it seems very simple that I would place a large emphasis on passing, because lots of my quality of life depends on it....Beyond that, it is also important to me because when I envision who I want to be ideally, that person doesn't look to have ever been male.

Hikari nailed it.

It is very important to me for people to see me as a woman and relate to me in that way. As I progress deeper and deeper into my transition I can see that people who knew me before as "him" just a few months ago are now shifting their perspective and are seeing and treating me as a female - the guys at work are now being exceptionally polite, holding doors open for me, and greeting me as a guy would greet a woman - and I do catch the occasional stare at my butt or chest, which has got to be weird to those guys knowing me previously as a guy and now seeing something that they like  :laugh: The women want to chat with me about girl things - perfect!

Out in the world I know that some people clock me and some don't which is fine with me. Even the ones that i'm pretty sure have clocked me still treat me as female. That's all I want.

Interesting post Suzi.

I think most people know my opinions about passing, the only person important to me is - me; and that is not meant in a narcissistic way.

And yes, if I have been invited to meet some trans*girls who I have not met before I can immediately pick them on sight, with exception of a few girls who have had extensive and successful FFS, but even then I usually pick them.

But that is no reason for despair, passing is between your ears (IMO). I'm a woman, no denies that, no one questions that, no one except a sad excuse of a sister in law ever misgenders me. Her problem is straight out jealousy, I have a fantastic life, she doesn't. So socially I am accepted, do I pass? Who cares? My BF has no issues taking me out to any function, he is proud for me to be his partner in any social event. So why do we worry so much?

But then we are female, we just automatically worry about how we look. If you take for example, gorgeous movie stars, they worry like crazy that they may look 'ugly' when they go out; why?

Do women have an insecurity gene? :laugh:

Hi Suzi,
This is how I answered your question for myself about 3 years ago:

When I think feminine/female the associated words that come to my mind most spontaneously are: beauty, gentleness, delicacy, finesse, empathy, attention to others and no doubt seduction and sensuality also... It is both a physical image and a way of being that seem very coherent to me. I also willingly admit that it is, without any doubt, a highly idealized and "binary" image of woman. I have had enough experience of real women in my life to know that appearances can be deceptive ...

However, if I didn't have this idealized image, it is very unlikely that I would be attempting such an "unreasonable", hugely disruptive, transition,  which contains so much intrinsic potential to end badly. Also, at a very practical level, for me this means that a person, represented by his/her  physique, is inseparable from their attitudes and behaviors, the two being complementary.  For example, it is all the more impossible for me to imagine myself living as a woman with a resolutely masculine physique that I believe our physique has a huge impact on the way we interact with others. If I am 6'6" and weigh more than 200 lbs, my impact on others will be very different from the impact I would have if I measured 5' 3" and weighed 110 lbs. Also if I have a face with gently rounded features, I will have a different impact than a person with more angular and rougher features.

In my own case, at the physical level, it is definitely the face that counts most: the softness and finesse of female features, the openness of the eyes, the beauty of women's smiles. To this day, when I look at woman around me, I am admiring, fascinated and, perhaps most of all, envious.
 
Without having too many illusions about what is feasible, it is probably because of this that last summer (2011), after 3 years of questioning and hesitation , I decided to do FFS (forehead, eye contour, nose and lips...) and that I will finish the work this coming summer. Even if I still have to wait before I can transition completely, I already have a face that is better aligned with how I feel deep down inside me. Not easy at all to erase 54 years of testosterone and living as a man but neither is it impossible and, overall, I am very happy with what has been done so far. Also, with a face that is already gentler than before, I feel gentler inside.   


For me, all of that is still valid today and from a practical point of view, I'm also very much on the same page as Hikari, I want to be seen unquestionably as a woman by others. It just makes life so much simpler and more comfortable. Happily, after a lot of "rework",  today it is mostly the case.

I would think that part of it is about avoiding discrimination and violence.  That certainly is on my mind.  Hiding in plain site as it were.

I have had people see me as a woman, then corrected themselves when they actually took a closer look...it felt good, very good, while it lasted.

Then there are the ones who say ma'am etc, with sincerity, but because *I* know I look guy-ish I know they're being polite and respectful...which I do appreciate, but it doesn't make me feel as good as the accidental passing.

It's just an ego thing, I think. For me, passing has become important, but not in a personally devastating way.

Quote from: suzifrommd on January 16, 2015, 07:29:47 PM
Is your interest in passing driven solely by practical concerns (social acceptance, for example), or does it run deeper? Is it somehow tied to your image of yourself as a member of your identified gender?

Yes.

I think it is mostly social. We want to be allowed into our gender's spaces with out question. there is a lot of privilege that comes with passing. I know for me to when I envision my self I see a women and I want other people to see that too.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 16, 2015, 07:41:31 PM
I think for a lot of people, passing is like winning a contest. Truthfully, c'mon, let's be truthful.....you can see male in the face of almost every woman here. Myself included, but I openly identify as a crossdresser, and I'm usually in male mode. I get misgendered so to speak with miss, ma'am and lots of corrections thrown in.  Anguish level out of me?  0%

Hugs, Devlyn

You know... I'm not even at the stage of having to think about it yet but your perspective on this seems a bit, well, perspective-oriented.

You being a crossdresser means you live life as a man most of the time when many others need to do what they do in order to identify with themselves.  To those people, I very much doubt it is viewed as "winning a contest".

Personally, I know I'll be very affected by my ability to "pass" because it's all or nothing; either I live in the abject horror that fills my brain or I transition fully into what I know I am supposed to be.  There is no contest to win for me.  I only see it as a way out that doesn't end with a lifetime of anguish and depression only to be punctuated by a bitter death. 

Just saying... it's not a contest to everybody.

Given there are so many people out there who are hostile towards trans people, or who have totally fetishised or effed up beliefs about trans people, the less I draw the attention of those people to me when I am in public the better. Despite being 6'3" I aim to blend in, and am grateful that I usually can.

Quote from: Abysha on January 17, 2015, 05:54:49 PM
You know... I'm not even at the stage of having to think about it yet but your perspective on this seems a bit, well, perspective-oriented.

You being a crossdresser means you live life as a man most of the time when many others need to do what they do in order to identify with themselves.  To those people, I very much doubt it is viewed as "winning a contest".

Personally, I know I'll be very affected by my ability to "pass" because it's all or nothing; either I live in the abject horror that fills my brain or I transition fully into what I know I am supposed to be.  There is no contest to win for me.  I only see it as a way out that doesn't end with a lifetime of anguish and depression only to be punctuated by a bitter death. 

Just saying... it's not a contest to everybody.

And I specifically didn't say everybody.

"You being a crossdresser means you live life as a man most of the time when many others need to do what they do in order to identify with themselves."

Assume much? And why do you think I don't need to identify with myself, but others do? My life deserves to be as fulfilling as anyone else's. To that end, I don't let the opinions of others  affect me.

Hugs, Devlyn

Passing is far more important to me now that I have left Paradise for Cowboy Country. It is a safety thing. A restroom thing. Also, I get to be me.

Gender is a weird social construct. Without the concept of gender, I doubt I would care as much about passing but, I would still be dysphoric without HRT.

Passing is weird. I am VERY much out as trans to my friends and family, and yet, it is strangers that I try to pass for a lot of the time. I want them to feel comfortable in my presence so as to avoid triggering any transphobic responses. Really though, the less I care, the less others seem to care.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 17, 2015, 06:42:10 PM
And I specifically didn't say everybody.

"You being a crossdresser means you live life as a man most of the time when many others need to do what they do in order to identify with themselves."

Assume much? And why do you think I don't need to identify with myself, but others do? My life deserves to be as fulfilling as anyone else's. To that end, I don't let the opinions of others  affect me.

Hugs, Devlyn

It was because you actually said you are usually in man-mode.  I wasn't assuming.  I said what I did because your perspective on it is from a person who admittedly lives in either mode where many cannot.

It wasn't a hack on you at all nor do I feel like your experience is any less valid.  But, to many, "passing" is important because there's nothing else, no other skins to wear.

I only responded as I did because comparing it to a contest seemed a bit like downplaying the actual need many feel for that holy grail of "passing". 

I'm learning soooo much from all of you and the different types of people who go through this so, believe me when I say that I wasn't minimizing your perspective at all as any perspective from here is more than what I have, even if it's not aligned with what my experiences are or will be.  In other words, I don't even have a cloud to stand on yet, much less a cloud of judgement.

 :police:

No bickering please...

   I guess I had better post a reply before this thread gets locked.Only read the last couple of posts out of curiosity and was not surprised by them.Anyway why is passing important? Because we all or at least most want to be respected and accepted by society as our gender and the person we are inside.Simple statement but difficult to accomplish,especially for those of us who are older and am not saying it is easier for those who are younger, but the older you get the more social conditioning and the ravages of time come into play.For those who are younger finances and jobs and a lot of other things come into play. Its is no easy journey no matter what age you are ,youth does have its advantages though and increases your chance of passing.I would say in the end all we really want to do is be ourselves and live a normal productive and usually boring life and not have to think about the sh*t we have to live with and think about everyday .  :)  Patty

Quote from: Abysha on January 17, 2015, 07:03:52 PM
It was because you actually said you are usually in man-mode.  I wasn't assuming.  I said what I did because your perspective on it is from a person who admittedly lives in either mode where many cannot.

It wasn't a hack on you at all nor do I feel like your experience is any less valid.  But, to many, "passing" is important because there's nothing else, no other skins to wear.

I only responded as I did because comparing it to a contest seemed a bit like downplaying the actual need many feel for that holy grail of "passing". 

I'm learning soooo much from all of you and the different types of people who go through this so, believe me when I say that I wasn't minimizing your perspective at all as any perspective from here is more than what I have, even if it's not aligned with what my experiences are or will be.  In other words, I don't even have a cloud to stand on yet, much less a cloud of judgement.

Thanks for the explanation. This is me in full male mode at work, by the way. Do I pass?

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1279.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy537%2FDevlynMarie%2F20141203_145112_zps13cb2a95.jpg&hash=5d34f496b07f352829b6e549dad37c468e2244b9)

Dysphoria comes from receiving any feedback that tells you that your station in life is incongruent with who you are at your core.  Passing comes when you have minimized at least the external sources of that feedback.  It means the world sees you for who you are.  This is why it matters.

I should say this is more of a transsexual perspective.  I wouldn't speak for other segments of the community.

Passing is a fictional person we see in our minds

It leads to anxiety, stress and fears.

We are who we are and that is what every other person out there are.

Just my personal life experience.

Quote from: mrs izzy on January 17, 2015, 07:55:18 PM
Passing is a fictional person we see in our minds

It leads to anxiety, stress and fears.

We are who we are and that is what every other person out there are.

Just my personal life experience.

When we've stopped thinking about it, however the world sees us, we've won.

Quote from: mrs izzy on January 17, 2015, 07:55:18 PM
Passing is a fictional person we see in our minds

It leads to anxiety, stress and fears.

We are who we are and that is what every other person out there are.

Just my personal life experience.

The anxiety, stress, and fears are certainly there for me. The trans women I know who know they don't pass seem a lot happier to me.

But I'll disagree that it's a fiction. It IS possible for some of us not to be recognized as having transitioned. It is a skill some of us can learn, and comes natural to others. Certain physical changes such as HRT and FFS can make it easier. When you meet someone, either they notice that you've transitioned, or they don't, depending on numerous factors, many of which are under our control. Our perception of what will or won't happen if we pass may be a fiction, but passing itself is a reality.

I'm sorry I still can't grasp the P not P argument . If my legs needed to be amputated because of bone cancer , but I was constantly afraid  of people  looking at me do I just die because I don't want to be seen as different . I'm sorry this argument goes on and on ad infinitum , but I can't grasp it. If a cis woman was  born with  51% male features what is she to do end her life because she gets mistaken for a man. Once again I'm truly sorry I just don't get it. Probably one of the biggest conflicts that prevents the advancement of societies view of the transgender movement is that if you don't make the cut  you'd to better off not transitioning.

Quote from: BunnyBee on January 17, 2015, 08:10:33 PM
When we've stopped thinking about it, however the world sees us, we've won.

This is the truth I found through my therapist.

Acceptance of who we are as a person.

Not a gender, not a society's title.

If we can not accept ourself no one else can either in our minds.

Want to add one last thing.

Not everyone can make it past there feelings.

Everyone is there own.

These words I posted came from working my own fears. Letting go was all I needed.

Anyone else is there own path.

Quote from: suzifrommd on January 17, 2015, 08:15:54 PM
The anxiety, stress, and fears are certainly there for me. The trans women I know who know they don't pass seem a lot happier to me.

What I find is that there are basically 3 sorts of transwomen: 1. Those that take passing for granted 2. Those that pass but are constantly worried about passing and seem to think every funny look or stare is someone clocking them, or 3. Those that don't pass at all, and usually know they don't pass at all.

In my experience group 1 is the happiest, followed by group 3, then group 2. This makes me feel that if one worries about passing alot it is going to have a really bad effect on ones morale.

After I went on a 1500 mile road trip, across a bunch of states, and no one looked at me any different than any other woman, I went from group 2 to group 1 for sure. I think that my life has improved significantly because of it. Some of you might remember when I would post pics asking if I passed and getting all these compliments only to not believe the comments were sincere. It seems silly now, but I couldn't see anything but a guy in my own mirror even though, that just wasn't the reality of what was staring back at me.

Quote from: Hikari on January 18, 2015, 01:18:29 AM
What I find is that there are basically 3 sorts of transwomen: 1. Those that take passing for granted 2. Those that pass but are constantly worried about passing and seem to think every funny look or stare is someone clocking them, or 3. Those that don't pass at all, and usually know they don't pass at all.

I would consider myself in a 4th group: I tend to pass most of the time. But I've reached a point in my life that if I do get clocked, I don't care one bit. Life goes on. I would never take it for granted.

Quote from: BunnyBee on January 17, 2015, 07:52:05 PM
Dysphoria comes from receiving any feedback that tells you that your station in life is incongruent with who you are at your core.  Passing comes when you have minimized at least the external sources of that feedback.  It means the world sees you for who you are.  This is why it matters.

I should say this is more of a transsexual perspective.  I wouldn't speak for other segments of the community.

^ this pretty much sums up my thoughts on this topic.

Quote from: Hikari on January 18, 2015, 01:18:29 AM
What I find is that there are basically 3 sorts of transwomen: 1. Those that take passing for granted 2. Those that pass but are constantly worried about passing and seem to think every funny look or stare is someone clocking them, or 3. Those that don't pass at all, and usually know they don't pass at all.

Great analysis, Hikari.

I think the problem is that I drift between all three categories. I have many days when no one bats an eyelash and my transition seems like an irrelevant detail of my past. Then I have days (usually the day or two before electrolysis) where my facial hair pattern sends the clocking boulder rolling down hills, and I find it's safest just to assume I don't pass. I don't spend a lot of time in that 2nd category, but when I've come off the pre-electrolysis days and I'm once more devoid of noticeable beard pattern, it's hard to get back into the mindset that I pass.

Suzi, can I ask a question in this thread?

Why does passing or not passing worry people?

It may well be the same question, but a different perspective, yes safety etc seems a massive concern, and very understandable in countries that are blatantly discriminatory. But in Aus there is
little, obvious disrimation and the girls here don't seem to worry about as much. Yes some of the girls are terrified but that is the normal self fear crap, they get over it quite quickly.

So why does it bother people?

What is the fear of being yourself?

Quote from: Cindy on January 18, 2015, 08:11:43 AM
Suzi, can I ask a question in this thread?

Why does passing or not passing worry people?

It may well be the same question, but a different perspective, yes safety etc seems a massive concern, and very understandable in countries that are blatantly discriminatory. But in Aus there is
little, obvious disrimation and the girls here don't seem to worry about as much. Yes some of the girls are terrified but that is the normal self fear crap, they get over it quite quickly.

So why does it bother people?

What is the fear of being yourself?

Hi Cindy,
You have  answers to your question in many of the contributions so far. You are the person who is framing the question in terms of "fear". If you look at the answers, for many of us it is a question of self-perception ie. actually liking what you see (reality = ideal self) and just simple day to day comfort.
Donna

P.S. Maybe there is a difference in perception on this issue due you guys seeing everything from an upside-down perspective  ;)
i

It's important to me because I hate to stand out in *any* way. (I hated it even when I was a guy; it's a testament to how much I loved my hair that I wore it very long even then, because drawing attention to myself filled me with terror. ) I am a very shy, quiet person who doesn't like public attention. Which is also why I say I chased "blending in" rather than "passing"; I wanted to go back to being invisible in a crowd, even if that meant looking like a vaguely-not-ugly woman my age rather than being a knockout.

There are still a few people who remember me from before and want to send me articles about being trans and whatnot, and more and more that's tiring, even though it has nothing to do with my appearance - I don't want to be constantly reminded of my past even though I'm not embarrassed or ashamed of it (I don't want to be constantly reminded of the years I spent in another career or running a blog, either!). So I'd be very unhappy if my looks meant that a) people perpetually paid too much attention to me and b) people kept dragging up trans issues when I wanted to focus on grocery shopping.

Someone used my gmail to send me anonymous hate mail about this subject. For everyone's information, I don't have a fetish. I was going to ask the Staff to edit me out of this thread, but I'm not going to let a coward determine my actions for me.

You see the picture of me, I go to work like this. I've known the people I work with for twenty five years. Up until three years ago I showed up in blue jeans, flannel shirt, construction boots, and a crew cut. Pure Mike. Then I grew out the hair and nails, and when the questions came I said "I'm a crossdresser, my femme name is Devlyn" They now call me Devlyn, even though I'm legally still Mike. They accept me for who I am, and show me respect.

Here? It's all slings and arrows about how I'm cheating someone out of their identity. You can all have the same acceptance from society I'm finding. Acceptance is everything, passing is nothing.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 18, 2015, 10:22:28 AM
You can all have the same acceptance from society I'm finding. Acceptance is everything, passing is nothing.

Hugs, Devlyn

Devlyn,
Sorry to contradict you on this, but I have lost my last two jobs because of my transition. The acceptance you talk about simply didn't exist and other than  risking a long, costly and uncertain legal procedure, I had no means of defending myself. 

Today, transition finished and at last pretty credible presenting to the world as a woman, I am setting up my own business with (male) partners who have never known me other than as I am now. Believe me, it has made a huge difference.
Those of you who have managed to get by without passing being an issue should thank your good fortune but, please, please, refrain from telling us "that we can all have the same acceptance from society as you are finding". It's just not true!

Other than that, for many of us, passing is first and foremost about self-acceptance. For me, seeing a woman's face looking back at me in the mirror was already hugely important.

P.S. The hate mail was not from me.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 18, 2015, 10:22:28 AM
Someone used my gmail to send me anonymous hate mail about this subject. For everyone's information, I don't have a fetish. I was going to ask the Staff to edit me out of this thread, but I'm not going to let a coward determine my actions for me.

You see the picture of me, I go to work like this. I've known the people I work with for twenty five years. Up until three years ago I showed up in blue jeans, flannel shirt, construction boots, and a crew cut. Pure Mike. Then I grew out the hair and nails, and when the questions came I said "I'm a crossdresser, my femme name is Devlyn" They now call me Devlyn, even though I'm legally still Mike. They accept me for who I am, and show me respect.

Here? It's all slings and arrows about how I'm cheating someone out of their identity. You can all have the same acceptance from society I'm finding. Acceptance is everything, passing is nothing.

Hugs, Devlyn

Being a transsexual is different from being a crossdresser, obviously.  Your relationship with passing and the things you have been saying in general don't ring very true for me and the way my life experience has gone, but that is to be expected.

Your experience is legitimate, so is mine.

Experiences even between transsexuals can vary wildly.  This really shouldn't be about telling others how their experience should be, because we're all different and we all come from different circumstances that can really affect how big of a deal any of this is.  For some of us, it can be a real nightmare; others, the struggle, even if substantial, is much less.

You know, I think there is a big difference in acceptance levels for a person saying they are a crossdresser versus someone transitioning.  What that difference is probably varies depending on their environment. 

If you are in a relatively accepting workplace (for crossdressers), you might get accepted as nothing more than the-same-person-but-likes-to-dress-funny and it might not be a big deal.  Whereas if you came out as trans* and said you were transitioning, you might run into bigger problems because you're asking people to accept that you're not actually the gender they knew you as and they don't buy that, they are panicking about restroom issues, etc.

Or if you are in a not so accepting place (for crossdressers) they might react by not taking it seriously and making it something to laugh at, or thinking of it as a fetish.  Whereas a trans* person transitioning might be considered at least something serious rather than something laughable. 

The point I'm trying to make is that there's a difference, and the difference may result in different responses from people that could be better or worse for one or the other.  I am not saying that one is better than the other. 

And to those who send hate mail:  there's enough hate in this world.  Don't add to it. 

Quote from: Jenna Marie on January 18, 2015, 10:21:20 AM
It's important to me because I hate to stand out in *any* way.

Jenna, this really resonates with me. I feel the same way, and it's a big reason why I'm much more comfortable when I'm passing.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 18, 2015, 10:22:28 AM
Someone used my gmail to send me anonymous hate mail about this subject.

Oh, Devlyn, this is awful! Hugs from me. That doesn't belong on a support site (or any site, for that matter).

I'm glad you're not letting the bullies win. You are who you are and have as much right to be here as anyone else. Whatever your identity, you clearly understand where a lot of us are coming from, and you help a lot of people.

to me this question is as simple and fundamental as Newton's Law Of Gravitation Which has absolutely nothing to do with the concept of P or not P , but has absolutely everything to do with my existence on whether I am able to live or die.

Love you Dev. Do not let one anonymous coward get you down.

You have always been there for me, as has another cross dresser I know IRL.

I confess it can be hard some times remembering you identify differently than many women here but you are a strong, amazing and helpful person. Period.

I shall make something VERY clear.

This site is for all. I shall not tolerate people who discriminate against any group.

It amazes me; we of all people who are subject to harassment and ridicule do so to each other?

Sending hate mail to people!! If I become aware of who is acting in such a manner they will not be on this site.

I believe I am classified under Group 2 from Hikari's post. I constantly worry about passing yet in reality, I don't get any stares or if I do it will be usually with men checking me out. I was at the Asian Grocery Store today (I believe Asian people have a special eye to clock you) and not even a single creepy look was given or even if they suspect, the moment they hear my voice the suspicion goes away. However, to me passing is the most important element of my transition. Passing is my affirmation that my transition is valid (Disclaimer: People will hate me for saying this)

However, as the weeks pass and through the help of you ladies my worry fades as I start to face my life head on. And I quote Rupaul, "what people think about you is none of your business, be who you are and screw them all"

To that, I bid you all Good Day.

Kisses,

April

Devlyn receiving hate mail is completely uncalled for. As a community we need to pull together, not pull apart and throw rocks at each other. The world is doing a good job of throwing rocks at us without us throwing rocks too.

The transgender umbrella is a large one, encompassing many different classifications of people. Look at the top of your screen - see what it says there? Susan's Place Transgender resources. I'd also like to point out that Susan's has members from every corner of the globe.

So it follows that we will see a wide cross section of people's life experiences, from every perspective imaginable in threads here.

Devlyn weighed in with her perspective from the place she's at in her life. Is she wrong? Absolutely not. Will some people disagree with her? Probably. That's the nature of a community like this with such a varied population - people can and will bring different perspectives into a topic that might not have been considered by others, and we can all learn something from a different perspective. Its a good thing as long as we stick to civil discourse and avoid pointless and heated arguments.

To send anonymous hate mail because of a disagreement about a thread on this board is way, way past the mark. It solves nothing and only brings hard feelings and pain. Let's be better people than that.

Quote from: Eva Marie on January 18, 2015, 09:07:04 PM
Devlyn receiving hate mail is completely uncalled for. As a community we need to pull together, not pull apart and throw rocks at each other. The world is doing a good job of throwing rocks at us without us throwing rocks too.

The transgender umbrella is a large one, encompassing many different classifications of people. Look at the top of your screen - see what it says there? Susan's Place Transgender resources. I'd also like to point out that Susan's has members from every corner of the globe.

So it follows that we will see a wide cross section of people's life experiences, from every perspective imaginable in threads here.

Devlyn weighed in with her perspective from the place she's at in her life. Is she wrong? Absolutely not. Will some people disagree with her? Probably. That's the nature of a community like this with such a varied population - people can and will bring different perspectives into a topic that might not have been considered by others, and we can all learn something from a different perspective. Its a good thing as long as we stick to civil discourse and avoid pointless and heated arguments.

To send anonymous hate mail because of a disagreement about a thread on this board is way, way past the mark. It solves nothing and only brings hard feelings and pain. Let's be better people than that.

Eva, you hit that one out of the park.   

I may not always agree with everyone here on every issue, and sometimes I read things that I find rude, tasteless and even insulting, but at the end of the day I am here because I care about all of you and want you to be happy.  I have come a long way myself, and I believe that we all can help each other to be more understanding and compassionate toward one another no matter what our differences. 

Hearing that hate mail even happened here really got my blood boiling, and  >:-) -yn, I'm so sorry that happened to you.  We are all better than that.

If you don't like something you read here, please report it before you flame or bash someone over it.  ToS violators will be dealt with by staff. 

Ugh, this whole thread...see, this is why we can't have nice things.

My need to pass is coming from a number of different places; let me start by saying that in theory, gender bounderies mean nothing to me.  They are something we've created as a society, and I believe that overall, they've done us a lot of harm.  People can choose to do what they wish, and there's nothing wrong with being a masculine man or feminine woman, but that we mandate this behavior from people on the basis of gender is absolutely wrong.  This is in theory.

The reality though is that sometimes, conforming is necessary.  I have a number of goals in my life that have nothing to do with gender; those goals often conflict with my trans-ness.  Firstly, I don't want to think about my gender at all times.  I'm not planning on going stealth or anything, but it'd be nice to get to a point in my life where other people don't think about this so I won't have to.  This is a huge emotional drain on me, and I can't really function when I'm worrying about how other people see me at all times.  If other people know, I'm going to be forced to think about my gender, about how terribly wrong my body is, about everything else that just hasn't worked out so far in my transition.  Passing would give me the opportunity to move on.

Another reason is that transphobia is very real, and I want the privilege that passing affords.  Passing would make it easier for me to get jobs (and in my field, no job lasts longer than a few months).  It would allow me a certain amount of security; that's really, really important.  When you pass, you don't have to worry about being assaulted, or harassed, so long as nobody finds out.  Being trans is not safe, and passibility helps allay the dangers we all face.  I live in the New York metro area; it's not the most dangerous place in the world, but people do get harassed.  They get beaten; a few even get killed.  I don't feel the need to pass because I can't "love myself", or whatever else people here are going to say.  I need to pass because if I can't, I will never be able to feel safe.  That's a big deal in and of itself.

Even when I'm among people who aren't hostile, there are still problems that arise when everyone knows I'm trans.  A big one is dating.  I'm pansexual, but for the most part right now I'm interested in dating women.  Dating lesbians; lesbians like other women.  If I don't look like a woman, whatever that means, a lesbian won't be attracted to me.  That's understandable; I mean, I would never date a trans woman (the whole thing feels a bit too much like dating a cousin).  And dating men is hard too-I have NO interest in dating someone who is attracted to trans women specifically, and the fact is that most guys won't date a girl if she doesn't look like one.  People are only going to be attracted to me if I look cis.  Is this my problem?  No, in theory it's theirs.  But theory evaporates very quickly when I'm all on my own, and the reality of the situation is that I can't expect other people to change.  If I'm ever going to find love, I need to pass.  It's that simple.

Finally-people who are obviously trans just make others uncomfortable.  I'm not saying this in order to insult anyone, and I certainly try not to feel this way, even though I do on occasion.  People just...they're really put off by it.  It's not shocking; we've been trained since birth to be disgusted at the sight of a man in a dress.  I have a friend back at school who is in the early stages of transitioning, and when she's dressed en femme, it feels like she's making it a joke-she wears a cheap, ugly wig, a dress that doesn't fit.  She walks around like a hulking, lanky guy.  Her voice is the same as it always is.  She doesn't even make an effort to be female; all people see is a fake, mockery of a woman.  I feel awful admitting this, but I feel uncomfortable around her.  Everyone else does.  I'm not a joke; I don't want people to see me as a joke.  I don't believe in gender; I'd love to see it gotten rid of.  But my sex is (or should be) female, and the reality is that we live in a world where people do subscribe to the system of gender; if I have to be seen as one or the other, I unequivocally prefer to be seen as a woman.  I'm not a joke; I'm really afraid that people are going to look at me the way they look at my friend.

I'm in the second group, no doubts there...the issue is that I'm close-ish, but not there entirely.  I have a good face, but my brow is really heavy.  My voice and body-language are pretty great, but I'm six feet tall and my hands are the size of my face.  I even have a male digit ratio, if you believe in that sort of thing.  It's not like I look like a man.  More and more often, I mention it offhand like I've gotten used to doing because hey, everyone already knows, and people look confused.  A trans guy once told me when I mentioned my fears around about passing that he had no idea until I told him.  I'm getting there, but...I want people to see me as a real person.  I want people to listen to me, respect me, and be able to love me.  Personally, my fear is that none of these things are going to happen if I can't pass.  That, and my constant worrying about my gender is ruining my life.  It's just too much time and energy for me to keep doing it. 

Thats my perspective on things.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on January 18, 2015, 10:12:34 PM
Another reason is that transphobia is very real, and I want the privilege that passing affords.  Passing would make it easier for me to get jobs (and in my field, no job lasts longer than a few months).  It would allow me a certain amount of security; that's really, really important.  When you pass, you don't have to worry about being assaulted, or harassed, so long as nobody finds out.  Being trans is not safe, and passibility helps allay the dangers we all face.  I live in the New York metro area; it's not the most dangerous place in the world, but people do get harassed.  They get beaten; a few even get killed.  I don't feel the need to pass because I can't "love myself", or whatever else people here are going to say.  I need to pass because if I can't, I will never be able to feel safe.  That's a big deal in and of itself.

This 100%

Like I honestly never felt safe in public until I started passing even though I had started presenting part time prehrt, the anxiety and fear I went through back then was through the roof. I mean I did get a bunch of confidence from those experiences but its not like I didn't have to deal with being laughed at and everyone was super nice with me, quite the opposite. I hate to say it but living like a hermit for awhile protected my mental state and my life itself. I was able to focus on myself without the negativity.. Like even after starting hrt I was still too scared and for good reason. I live in the south and you really have to watch your back around here. Its only been up until last year that I started living my life again (making new friends, going out on the weekends,etc..) and that was all due to the passing privilege I had finally gained.

I have been discussing this thread with my wife over the last couple of days and today at lunch she told me about a documentary she saw a few years ago about cis-females why did extensive plastic-surgery. For most, especially a couple of very masculine looking women, the issue was first and foremost self-acceptance ie. seeing a recognizably female face looking back at them in the mirror. Afterwards came acceptance by society as some of the interviewees had also suffered abuse from others because of their appearance.

Listening to what she had to say, I was struck by how similar it was to what those of us here who consider passing important had to say ie. it's about self-acceptance, fitting in and generally feeling accepted by society. From a very personal standpoint, I would also reinforce what Androgynouspainter had to say in her post. Being around masculine looking trans-women mostly make others feel very uncomfortable, no doubt as it requires a certain amount of suspension of disbelief. I felt incapable of imposing that sort of discomfort on my wife and kids and because of this decided from the outset of my transition that if I wasn't passable, I wasn't going to transition as the costs, to me, would have outweighed the benefits.

Sure you can say I don't care what others think or feel but in doing so, most of the time you are probably condemning yourself to a very lonely existance. As it happens, this also just happens to be much the case for very masculine looking cis-females.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on January 18, 2015, 10:12:34 PM
I have a friend back at school who is in the early stages of transitioning, and when she's dressed en femme, it feels like she's making it a joke-she wears a cheap, ugly wig, a dress that doesn't fit.  She walks around like a hulking, lanky guy.  Her voice is the same as it always is.  She doesn't even make an effort to be female; all people see is a fake, mockery of a woman. 

AP, I really admire your candor. You're willing to say things that no one else would, and air truths a lot of us would like to keep locked up in the cupboards of your mind.

That being said, the empathetic soul in me can't help but ache at the crushing pressure to conform that your friend must be feeling.

I feel bad for her too; it's not that she doesn't want to do well in her transition, she's just struggling to do it.  She's mildly autistic, so it might just be that, I don't know, but for the most part she seems either oblivious or uncaring to what people think.  She really wants a relationship though, even more than I do, and I just don't have the heart to tell her that might never happen when she transitions.

Again, I think the need to conform to a specific gender role is a great injustice inflicted on transgender people-and, while I have every intention to fight that injustice, in the meanwhile there are certain realities we as a community need to confront.  I don't want to sound rude, and I really, really don't mean this in a negative way; I am trying not to feel this way, but many others aren't.  If we want to be treated with respect, sometimes assimilation is a necessary evil.  Take my hair for example-I love my haircut!  It's what makes me me, and people compliment it all the time.  However, it does draw undue attention, and even though I love it way more now than whatever the heck my hair will do once I grow it out, I need to do that in order to pass better.  I don't want to conform, not in the slightest.  But the rest of the world does, and I have a career to worry about.  So, passing is very, very important to me even though it's not politically correct for me to say this in the interest of preserving the feelings of people who can't do it.

Quote from: Donna E on January 19, 2015, 06:17:00 AM
Sure you can say I don't care what others think or feel but in doing so, most of the time you are probably condemning yourself to a very lonely existence.

Yeah, that's true.

HOWEVER, If I had been born a genetic female, I would be in the exact same situation socially as I am now. I've been into things that other people considered "weird" or "odd". (Mostly music stuff) So, that put me on the outs with most people. Plus, I'm just not all that interested in meeting new people, locally. Any time that I attempt this, it's a case of "same crap, different day". People want you to fit in to their little social boxes and I'm just not going to do it. If it means I spend the rest of my life alone, then so be it.

My only problem with this issue of passing is the majority of those that don't perfectly pass. I'll say I think I'm quite lucky myself that my genetics allow me to do all right as far as passing . The problem is  everyone else that has problems whether major or minor in how they feel others perceive them . Society will not change in their attitudes of transitioning people if the only acceptable path is whether or not you make the cut. My attitude is that whatever you want to call our condition every one who has this situation of self perception has the right to feel free of this dysphoria or what ever you want to call it. All the issues involved with transition are do to societies view of us, this will not change as long as the attitude is guided by being in the image of what is acceptable to the majority. ( Disclaimer: this is my personal view and is not to be regarded as any kind of offense to others views which are of equal validity. )

( Disclaimer: this is my personal view and is not to be regarded as any kind of offense to others views which are of equal validity. )

It is pretty simple really, if you look, act, or sound differently from what people expect, you will be seen as different.  In many cases, or situations "different" is OK, but there is always what is considered appropriate.  You have the right to "free speech" and self expression, but is it not inappropriate to verbally insult a law enforcement officer or run naked through the streets?

I want to pass because I am unhappy when I see a male body looking back at me in the mirror. I want to see a female body, with a feminine face, female parts, and curves when I look in the mirror, not a "man in a dress".

Quote from: rachel89 on January 21, 2015, 01:07:24 AM
I want to pass because I am unhappy when I see a male body looking back at me in the mirror. I want to see a female body, with a feminine face, female parts, and curves when I look in the mirror, not a "man in a dress".

Bam.  Looking in the mirror and seeing ME looking back someday is such an enormous and wonderful thought.

I feel like I have a new perspective on this... because now I've switched from being someone who used to FLIP OUT about how passing was the most important thing in the world, to now being more or less okay with it if someone misgendered me by mistake, or clocked me as trans.

The difference is that I finally reached a point where I was more or less comfortable with my own appearance, and confident. My mindset switched from "OMG, they misgendered me, they're staring at me, that means I'm not a really girl, I deserve to get misgendered, I don't deserve female pronouns or to be accepted as a girl" to "they made a mistake. I'm a woman, they just didn't notice."

The difference wasn't that other people suddenly started treating me any differently, the difference was that I finally reached the point where I was able to look in the mirror and feel "female enough" for myself. Before, I was a bit ashamed of calling myself a woman because I was so hung up on others' judgments, where now I'm unashamed about it, I AM a woman. It's something innate, and it's not up for debate or invalidation from someone else.

That's the thing about gender. In our binary system, it's not up for debate which one you are, you're either one sex or the other. And it was a huge deal for me when I realized that I DID have the right to call myself female, along with all of the connotations that come with it, instead of focusing on all of the things that somehow in my own eyes invalidated my femaleness.



So yeah... I know people complain a LOT about people who are post-transition and passable telling people who are still in-transition and unpassable that passing isn't important. But no, in the grand scheme of things it's not passing that makes one reach their comfort point where they don't worry about it anymore, it's being happy with yourself. This is why so many people who aren't passable are able to be perfectly happy, because they're happy with themselves, unashamed of themselves, and unashamed of being the people they know they are even though they don't pass. For a lot of people it does indeed take passing to reach this point. And admittedly it did for me. It took me a good 4 months of working my first post-transition job and not a single co-worker caring about or even seeming to notice my trans status before I finally got over my shame and reached a point where I finally could accept myself. But this is also why many people, even if they do pass, even if they're beautiful, NEVER feel like it's enough, and can still never do anything but be hung up on the things that supposedly invalidate their own gender, even though every other person in the world is looking at them and seeing a cis person to their eyes. Even if passing does help, really when you get down to it, it's all in the head. It's all about reaching that point where YOU feel comfortable with yourself.

But in general, even though it's definitely not a requirement for happiness or for self-acceptance, passing does indeed help. According to this study, http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2014/01/28/3214581/transgender-suicide-attempts/ Among those trans people who felt like they were immediately read as trans most of the time, their attempted-suicide rate was 45%. Among those who felt that others could not tell that they were trans, that number drops to 36%. Attempted-suicide rates among those who are "out" are 50%, and only 33% among those who are stealth.

So yeah, these numbers I feel are consistent with what I'm saying. Passing DOES help some people feel more accepting of themselves. But it's not the sole determinant of happiness and self-acceptance. Lots of passable stealth people still are so miserable that they attempt suicide, and lots of unpassable "out" people have no problems at all.

For me personally it has to do with expressing how I feel on the inside. That's why I like clothing, and want to have as male an appearance as possible. My image and how the rest of the world views me should match how I feel. I will feel more comfortable when my image matches how I feel and everyone sees the true Jake. I don't believe anyone would want to represent themselves wrongly to the rest of the world.

For me passing means eliminating my medical history as the first subject of a conversation even if it isn't mentioned. For me the goal of becoming a female was be treated no different than a woman would be in normal society. I don't have to be beautiful to accomplish this as many CIS women aren't.
I am proud of the battle I fought to get where I am today and I am comfortable discussing it, but I would like to understand the real world of being female better because I did such a terrible job of being a male. I love the company of this board and I will remain here as long as possible but there is another world out there that also has something to offer and I would like to learn all about it as well. Strange as it may seem, pre surgical I wasn't able to explore the world. Post surgical I had a roommate that tended to block this desire. The grieving period also prevented me from wanting more but in the last few months my grieving has ended and I have discovered a world that I should get to know. For me this is going to be a bit more complex than putting on an outfit and going out. In some ways my image is 30 years out of date and it's going to take some work but I am willing to do it. In many ways I am much like those of you who are newly minted and for the first time are exploring the world in your new role.

Ahh, one of those threads that makes me feel like an outsider amongst the trans community..

Why? Because once I reached the point of true self acceptance, my worries about passing went away.. I know I don't pass 100%, but I also don't care. I shop for women's clothes. I use the women's bathrooms. Almost all of my friends are women. All my sexual partners are women, and yes, even they see me as a woman. I live my life as the woman I know myself to be. And I have almost zero issues doing any of it.

In comparison to many here, I've had fairly sub-standard results from hormones. C'est la vie. I don't get stink-eye in the ladies.. Lesbians don't run away screaming. So, on some level, I must pass - but I'd argue it's as much my attitude and confidence in myself as it is my looks.

For me passing isn't I guess as some would say "deceiving" the outside to see a man who was a born a woman.
It's more of "Hey, I'm a masculine man, and I will dress and look as such because that's who I am".
Same goes if your a fem female or fem guy or whatever you may be.
I do not want to be mistaken as a woman because I am not one.
Biologically yes, that's as far as it goes.

I'm not ashamed of being trans, but it's not as much part of my make-up as it is to some people.
You don't see cis people introducing themselves as cis men/women so why should I introduce myself as trans?
I'm a man with a deformity and I take harmones and (for now) bind to fix it.

I plan on telling the least amount of people about my transition. It's not that I'm ashamed. Actually the opposite. I've lived an incredible life 27 years as a male. My 28th year (yes I outed myself I'm a 1990 baby) will be the best yet.

My family, close friends and current coworkers will know. But that's about it. I want the male me to live on with the people that I've come across.

I sound crazy, maybe I am, but I feel like my "male identity" served a purpose. I lived and done what I've needed to do. This is a birth and there's no sadness but joy.

Who can say they've lived 2 lives? Not very many people. My family will always be around to remind me of my past. But where I get to choose, I will always live in the present and Allison is here to stay.



Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

To me passing means being closer to having a normal life. I can only hope I pass somehow, but I highly doubt so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have a theory about this, actually. I don't want to come off sounding glib, because I know many girls have a terrible time with the fact that they don't pass. Since I got here via euphoria rather than dysphoria, I haven't had to struggle as they have. I'm not speaking from personal experience.

I think transitioning is about authenticity, and I think many girls assume -- mistakenly -- that they have to look cis to be authentic. I don't think this is a conscious decision; I think it's just assumed. But, imho, authenticity is about self-expression, based on self-acceptance. All human beings have a basic need to express who they are, and when you're trans that means expressing as the gender you weren't assigned at birth. It's easy to see how seeing the wrong gender in the mirror would be a problem. And compounding this are all the image problems that cis girls have, too; so, it's like we get a double-whammy.

I suspect the key to overcoming this particular source of dysphoria is to find a way around this basic misconception -- that being authentic is a matter of how cis you look, rather than simply expressing yourself as who you are.

Personally, I find a happy trans woman to be very attractive, whether she passes or not.

EDIT: I focused, above, on the self-expression aspect; but the self-acceptance is also necessary -- and maybe this is what really intensifies the problem. Because there is a natural inclination to rely on how others perceive and think of us to guide how we think of ourselves.

For me?
Its for social acceptance, which entitles me to increased acceptance and security and the other reason is for inner peace, erasing my prior gender physically(what I see reflected in the mirror), while encompassing some mental aspects of it.

Passing isn't actually that important to me, in general.

I think it has a connection to your place in society. Or the place you want to be in society.

I don't have much of a place in society in that sense. I'm not married, I don't have kids, I don't have a family that interacts much. I own my own business and I work in my own place, so I don't have the role of a company employee either. I'm pretty much on the outskirts of everything.

That is, except for one thing. I do performing arts as a hobby, and when that happens, I have to assume a role temporarily - or to look like I fit that role and that gender, and that's when it becomes important to pass. Otherwise, it just isn't, because I barely exist within society the rest of the time.

It seems to matter if you're trying to participate in a particular part of society in a particular way. The moment I have to "enter" society in the sense of playing a character on a stage, suddenly it all becomes important to be convincing and identifiable.

Quote from: Charlie Nicki on January 01, 2018, 03:48:27 PM
To me passing means being closer to having a normal life. I can only hope I pass somehow, but I highly doubt so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well simply looking at the picture alone, I'd certainly mam you upon first glance.  Of course 'passing' involves voice mannerisms, social ques, etc. 

To me, 'passing' doesn't mean deceiving either.  Besides what am I 'pretending' not to be?  My birth status was pretty well screwed up on inception.  I can't even get 5 doctors to agree on a single diagnosis.

'Passing' just means people don't do that annoying double take with the quizzical frown.  Now the double takes I get are people usually looking at my butt or something.  Far preferable to the other. 

Just my take on it, my 2 cents worth :) 

For my part, I think it is not about attractiveness or sociological gender roles, but actual gender traits. I would prefer to pass because of the very simple fact it means I am identifiable as female rather than male. I don't think I would even ever live stealth, I just don't want to look to male.

Having said that, it's not my #1 priority.

(Note that wen I say actual gender traits, I do not mean that men cannot have female traits or women cannot have male traits. Simply the most literal statement of how hormones shape our bodies around our natural baseline with a million variations to appear more distinctively male or female.)

Quote from: Roll on January 24, 2018, 01:22:20 AM
I would prefer to pass because of the very simple fact it means I am identifiable as female rather than male. I don't think I would even ever live stealth, I just don't want to look to male.

Yes. This.  And unless or (hopefully) until that happens with out a lot of makeup and push up bras and skinny jeans etc, I will use the tools available to me to help make that happen.


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Quote from: Charlie Nicki on January 01, 2018, 03:48:27 PM
To me passing means being closer to having a normal life. I can only hope I pass somehow, but I highly doubt so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am the same way I just want to look, feel and be normal, where I can walk up and just be me do the things I love to do and not be judged. Through my whole life I have always hated my body not my mind. Now I am starting to be happy with my body.

As a woman who definitely doesn't pass I'll say I think it matters because as nice as it is to be gendered correctly by all the people I know and care for, I'm invariably gendered incorrectly.

And then again, I'm lucky enough to live and work in a place where once people are introduced, they almost always get it.

Most important to me, my GF and my new lover both say my vagina passes just fine. That makes me happy every day.

"Passing" is a destructive word, as are most words associated with it.  We never should have let it into our lexicon, and we ought to do what we can to get rid of it.

Every day, we see new threads in which people lament that they do not pass, worry that they will never pass, wonder if they pass or crow about the fact that they always pass.  Mixed in there somewhere are the percenters, who pass __% of the time, but usually a number that suggests--you got it--a passing grade.  What is striking among the participants of these threads is that they are firmly united by a belief in passing as a concept.  Passing is their yardstick, and the thought that there isn't or shouldn't be a yardstick applied to human beings rarely comes up.  More on this in a moment.

Pass has many uses in the English language, but we know which one is meant--to succeed.  We know this because those whose use the term also use its opposite--fail.  You would think that people on a support site would use such a word with caution, but it is thrown around with equal abandon to that of its antonym.  People post about their "male fails" or "gal fails".  It finds its way into timelines as a milestone.  The rhyme makes it cute.  A joke.  Never mind that the person in that situation was likely scared, miserable or both at the time.

A distressing number of people post that they make decisions on whether or not to transition based on their perception of their ability to pass.  "I will transition, but only if I can pass" really means "I will pursue what medically is in my best interests, but only if no one knows that I did so."  To be sure, there is usually a certain generosity of spirit in the responses--"Oh, you could pass..."; "If I can do it you can do it."  Occasionally a "Will I pass?" thread is met with crickets.  Judgment has been rendered.  The yardstick reigns supreme.  Pass, or fail.

When somebody does not pass, they are "clocked".  It's not a pretty word.  One gets clocked by a left hook or an errant frisbee.  It is an act of violence--intentional in the first case and unintentional in the second--but an act of violence nonetheless.  It leaves a mark.



To the entire system described above, I say, if I am so permitted to do so here, "Bull>-bleeped-<."



Let's start from the bottom up.  What does it mean to be "clocked"?  Stripped to its essentials, it means to be recognized as transgender.  Again, "pass" is a perfect antonym.  To pass is not to be recognized as transgender.  This is the literal case--what actually happens.  The person who wishes to pass wishes not to be recognized as trans.  Some take this to an extreme, emphatically insisting that they are not transgender, are no longer transgender or that they are exactly the same as any cis person of their target gender.

This is not true.  A cis person has not felt the discomfort of being assigned the wrong gender at birth.  A cis person never needed to be treated medically to remain cis.  A cis person never needed to correct those who misgendered them, whether at birth or some point further down the line.  A cis person generally can't even grasp what this would be like.

You are trans.  You will always be trans.  Even if you are never recognized and if you have fully transitioned, you will still be transgender.  You literally bear the scars.  Metaphorically too, I would submit.

This is not a bad thing.  Someone who has successful treatment is to be congratulated.  I was told that I came through my appendectomy "with flying colors"--metaphorically waving a freaking flag.  Although I did little to achieve it, I felt strangely proud to have returned to wellness post-operatively.  "Never have to worry about that again."  Similarly I feel happy to have regained function in my shoulder and hand after two joint reconstructions.  Still, my treatments are written into my medical record.  They are facts about me, not points on which to feel ashamed.  They may seem less relevant over time, but the facts remain, and may occasionally become relevant again, for example, to the doctor trying to determine why I have my next bout of abdominal pain. 

I have scars on the underside of my breasts.  Should I be embarrassed or ashamed?  Hell no...I'm a tigress and I chased down what ultimately fed me.  The same applies to you regarding your transition.  Why do you act like you're ashamed of it?

We can still be honest about the frustrations we feel when our transgender identity becomes an issue.  I once skipped a medical school reunion because at the previous high school reunion, every conversation I had revolved around my transition.  I learned nothing about anybody else, and this sullied the experience.  Nevertheless, this was their failure, not mine.  I refuse to own it.  And, at the next reunion, I took charge of the conversations. "But enough about me...what's going on with you."  I framed my transition as something interesting, a potentially refreshing change from whatever rut the other person might have been stuck in.  I made new friends and I took pride in what I had accomplished--in transition and in life.  An effing tigress.

We can do better.  We can get rid of stupid words.  We can talk about recognition by others, and how we deal with it.  We can talk about the ways we work with them to make them more enlightened citizens.  We can react with patience to those who, through lack of experience and education, don't know how to make sense of our gender expression and are getting stuck on it.  We can make medical decisions because they are in our best interests, not because they will be invisible to other people.  We can be trans in a way that makes trans something really amazing and unique.  We can throw away this yardstick and ever other yardstick we use to place or deny value on other human beings.

I'm sorry rmaddy I'm glad for you expressing that's your truth however please don't equate it with my truth or try to tell me what my truth should be.

I'm happy to consider passing as both important and meaningless because depending in context it's both to me. Passing (and in my case not) has huge impact on being admitted to the organizations that represent my identity - I'm a lesbian and mainly identify in the female binary, my personal aesthetic is femme. The fact that I'm also transexual has little, maybe no bearing in that. Not passing has however meant that I've faced extra scrutiny in joining 2 out of 3 local women's groups and for the moment has kept me from being admitted to a fourth.

Here's what the organizer said in telling me I have to be passable to join her group

QuoteHi Sadie,

While we do have several trans women in the group, they are more or less, passing. Since we are a LGBTQ group for feminine women ....

Thanks so much for your understanding.

What I understood was they should have advertised their group as open to passable trans women.

It doesn't matter what you call it or whether it's in "our" lexicon, the reality now and for the foreseeable future, people gender each other based on appearance. I doubt that will ever change, not even sure it should -- gender has it's origins in biology for most of the population, well for "us" also, its just a difference in embryology.

Of course I don't want that gendering to be limiting my options let alone for people to be transphobic towards me or anyone. However I think trying to deny the importance of passing is silly given that passing is exactly how the vast majority of transitioned women avoid those negatives.

For the record I hate that I have few choices but to transgress gender norms. I take some solace in knowing that being unapologetically female while not passing maybe makes it easier for some others. I have to put on a little bit of brave every day and finally, to be sure if I passed flawlessly as the willowy dirty blonde chick I wish I could be then I'd also want to butch it up some days. For the record, the last thing I'll ever be is simple.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 24, 2018, 02:49:08 PM
"Passing" is a destructive word, as are most words associated with it.  We never should have let it into our lexicon, and we ought to do what we can to get rid of it.

Every day, we see new threads in which people lament that they do not pass, worry that they will never pass, wonder if they pass or crow about the fact that they always pass.  Mixed in there somewhere are the percenters, who pass __% of the time, but usually a number that suggests--you got it--a passing grade.  What is striking among the participants of these threads is that they are firmly united by a belief in passing as a concept.  Passing is their yardstick, and the thought that there isn't or shouldn't be a yardstick applied to human beings rarely comes up.  More on this in a moment.

Pass has many uses in the English language, but we know which one is meant--to succeed.  We know this because those whose use the term also use its opposite--fail.  You would think that people on a support site would use such a word with caution, but it is thrown around with equal abandon to that of its antonym.  People post about their "male fails" or "gal fails".  It finds its way into timelines as a milestone.  The rhyme makes it cute.  A joke.  Never mind that the person in that situation was likely scared, miserable or both at the time.

A distressing number of people post that they make decisions on whether or not to transition based on their perception of their ability to pass.  "I will transition, but only if I can pass" really means "I will pursue what medically is in my best interests, but only if no one knows that I did so."  To be sure, there is usually a certain generosity of spirit in the responses--"Oh, you could pass..."; "If I can do it you can do it."  Occasionally a "Will I pass?" thread is met with crickets.  Judgment has been rendered.  The yardstick reigns supreme.  Pass, or fail.

When somebody does not pass, they are "clocked".  It's not a pretty word.  One gets clocked by a left hook or an errant frisbee.  It is an act of violence--intentional in the first case and unintentional in the second--but an act of violence nonetheless.  It leaves a mark.



To the entire system described above, I say, if I am so permitted to do so here, "Bull>-bleeped-<."



Let's start from the bottom up.  What does it mean to be "clocked"?  Stripped to its essentials, it means to be recognized as transgender.  Again, "pass" is a perfect antonym.  To pass is not to be recognized as transgender.  This is the literal case--what actually happens.  The person who wishes to pass wishes not to be recognized as trans.  Some take this to an extreme, emphatically insisting that they are not transgender, are no longer transgender or that they are exactly the same as any cis person of their target gender.

This is not true.  A cis person has not felt the discomfort of being assigned the wrong gender at birth.  A cis person never needed to be treated medically to remain cis.  A cis person never needed to correct those who misgendered them, whether at birth or some point further down the line.  A cis person generally can't even grasp what this would be like.

You are trans.  You will always be trans.  Even if you are never recognized and if you have fully transitioned, you will still be transgender.  You literally bear the scars.  Metaphorically too, I would submit.

This is not a bad thing.  Someone who has successful treatment is to be congratulated.  I was told that I came through my appendectomy "with flying colors"--metaphorically waving a freaking flag.  Although I did little to achieve it, I felt strangely proud to have returned to wellness post-operatively.  "Never have to worry about that again."  Similarly I feel happy to have regained function in my shoulder and hand after two joint reconstructions.  Still, my treatments are written into my medical record.  They are facts about me, not points on which to feel ashamed.  They may seem less relevant over time, but the facts remain, and may occasionally become relevant again, for example, to the doctor trying to determine why I have my next bout of abdominal pain. 

I have scars on the underside of my breasts.  Should I be embarrassed or ashamed?  Hell no...I'm a tigress and I chased down what ultimately fed me.  The same applies to you regarding your transition.  Why do you act like you're ashamed of it?

We can still be honest about the frustrations we feel when our transgender identity becomes an issue.  I once skipped a medical school reunion because at the previous high school reunion, every conversation I had revolved around my transition.  I learned nothing about anybody else, and this sullied the experience.  Nevertheless, this was their failure, not mine.  I refuse to own it.  And, at the next reunion, I took charge of the conversations. "But enough about me...what's going on with you."  I framed my transition as something interesting, a potentially refreshing change from whatever rut the other person might have been stuck in.  I made new friends and I took pride in what I had accomplished--in transition and in life.  An effing tigress.

We can do better.  We can get rid of stupid words.  We can talk about recognition by others, and how we deal with it.  We can talk about the ways we work with them to make them more enlightened citizens.  We can react with patience to those who, through lack of experience and education, don't know how to make sense of our gender expression and are getting stuck on it.  We can make medical decisions because they are in our best interests, not because they will be invisible to other people.  We can be trans in a way that makes trans something really amazing and unique.  We can throw away this yardstick and ever other yardstick we use to place or deny value on other human beings.

I love this.  :)  I didn't come out of the closet just to get in another one.

Hugs, Devlyn

For me, correct gendering is what's important, from myself and others.  That is at the heart of my treatment, what is "medically in my best interests."  Misgendering made me dysphoric, so I changed what I needed to change in order to make it stop.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 24, 2018, 02:49:08 PMWhat does it mean to be "clocked"?  Stripped to its essentials, it means to be recognized as transgender.  Again, "pass" is a perfect antonym.  To pass is not to be recognized as transgender.  This is the literal case--what actually happens.  The person who wishes to pass wishes not to be recognized as trans.  Some take this to an extreme, emphatically insisting that they are not transgender, are no longer transgender or that they are exactly the same as any cis person of their target gender.

In the cis world, a clocking almost always indicates a measure of misgendering is to follow; indeed, it's already happened.  To them, a trans woman is a kind of a man, and a trans man is a kind of a woman.  They believe in some kind of "essence" of the flesh.  And they only recognize two kinds, male and female. 

Sophia,

If I read you correctly, you transitioned to put an to end external misgendering, to which I can only say, "I'm sorry."  I hope that worked out for you, and even more so that this helped you align with inner truth.

Renae

SadieBlake,

Quote from: SadieBlake on January 25, 2018, 05:15:05 AM
I'm sorry rmaddy I'm glad for you expressing that's your truth however please don't equate it with my truth or try to tell me what my truth should be.

Of course I am expressing my truth.  What else do I have to say?  Beyond that, I am contradicting what I see to be a societal lie, one that has imposed itself on us, and that some of us continue to impose on ourselves seeing it as the only possible way to get by.  I don't think it is.

And, I don't really understand what disagreement exists between you and me, at least on principle.  You clearly have suffered on account of societal binaries, and have faced rejection owing to communities insisting that you pass, assumedly to their standards.  As I said, it's a system loaded with a lot of BS.  I'm sorry that it has painted you into a corner, or perhaps, several different corners.

Where you lost me is when you say that you accept the importance of passing because society does, and then assert that you feel good about being gender transgressive, implying that it makes it easier for other trans people when you buck the system.  Bravo to the latter, as far as I am concerned.

I know you must realize that I didn't write what I did with you (or any other you) in mind.  The endless, often mindless, obsession with passing needs a remedy.  It is not my business who finds it to be a good one.

Another consideration as well, at least for me, is that "passing" isn't about hiding (even if I had a magic spell that transformed me overnight into a cis woman, I still wouldn't be stealth/hide my past) or simply adhering to societal norms... It's about who I truly want to be, regardless of all that. To take the desert island button scenario (when removed from society would you still change gender thing), in that context I'd still want to be passing. Not because it would get me anything or because of society roles at all, but because the connotation of passing means that I appear more female than male. I don't want to appear male, for myself. (But, again, if I do appear male and don't pass, it's not the end of the world for me at all.)

I look at it a bit in the feminist homemaker sense I suppose... A woman should not be required by society to be a mother and homemaker, but if a woman chooses to be such then that is still in keeping with true feminism. A trans woman should not be required by society to pass in order to garner correct gendering or access to certain forums, but if a trans woman chooses to want to pass for themselves, not because of the social concept of passing but because what passing inherently entails (being more feminine than masculine), I don't see anything wrong with that.

Quote from: Roll on January 25, 2018, 12:33:05 PM
Another consideration as well, at least for me, is that "passing" isn't about hiding (even if I had a magic spell that transformed me overnight into a cis woman, I still wouldn't be stealth/hide my past) or simply adhering to societal norms... It's about who I truly want to be, regardless of all that. To take the desert island button scenario (when removed from society would you still change gender thing), in that context I'd still want to be passing. Not because it would get me anything or because of society roles at all, but because the connotation of passing means that I appear more female than male. I don't want to appear male, for myself. (But, again, if I do appear male and don't pass, it's not the end of the world for me at all.)

I look at it a bit in the feminist homemaker sense I suppose... A woman should not be required by society to be a mother and homemaker, but if a woman chooses to be such then that is still in keeping with true feminism. A trans woman should not be required by society to pass in order to garner correct gendering or access to certain forums, but if a trans woman chooses to want to pass for themselves, not because of the social concept of passing but because what passing inherently entails (being more feminine than masculine), I don't see anything wrong with that.

Why call it passing at all then?  Are you not really saying that you would choose to express your self as feminine on that remote island and that the housewife should be able to be a housewife and that these things are inherently ok?  Perhaps you are familiar with Occam's Razor--eliminate that which is unnecessary to the hypothesis.  Passing?  Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothese la...

Quote from: rmaddy on January 25, 2018, 12:43:19 PM
Why call it passing at all then?  Are you not really saying that you would choose to express your self as feminine on that remote island and that the housewife should be able to be a housewife and that these things are inherently ok?  Perhaps you are familiar with Occam's Razor--eliminate that which is unnecessary to the hypothesis.  Passing?  Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothese la...

Calling it passing or not though is just a semantics issue. It certainly doesn't have to be called passing. The concept itself, of being recognizable as female thus inherently meaning that I am more feminine than masculine, is what matters to me, and passing is just the word that is used to describe that, nothing more and nothing less. (To elaborate briefly, essentially I look at the problem as a culturally driven, and thus entirely reasonable, yet still somewhat pathological need to "pass", regardless of what we call it, and without inherent judgment to the concept of simply wanting or preferring to "pass".)

For me there are a few reasons. First of all, how passable you are dictates how you are treated by society. If you're passable you can pretty much have a normal life, as normal as possible anyway. Those who don't pass face ridicule and discrimination by a lot of CIS people. Another reason is because I'm female I want to be recognized as such. Not a transwoman but a woman. Another reason is my sexual orientation. I only like straight guys. It's important to me to pass and be attractive to men. I'm not saying women are supposed to be attractive for men. I'm saying for ME being attractive to men is very important. And before anyone gets all offended by something I said, these are the reasons passing is important to ME. I'm not saying these reasons apply or should apply to anyone but me.

It's not as important to me as it used to me. I embrace that I am a demi boy and not the macho guy I tried to be 2 years ago. I feel that my soul is made of balanced androgynous energy. I'm not worried about being misgendered but my eventual goal is to medically transition from female to male. I will be going to a liberal college in my conservative town that has LGBT staff and community in it. The college is mostly female but started letting some male students in for financial reasons.  I deliberately avoid people who think gender roles are important. I have a supportive church community, and supportive friends despite this conservative city.

I think it's probably more important to some folks than others, it makes me feel good when I pass but if I don't I just think "Meh" and shrug it off

Passing for me is not important. Having respect and visibility is. It's about human rights. Not prejudice.

Quote from: Roll on January 25, 2018, 01:20:19 PM
Calling it passing or not though is just a semantics issue. It certainly doesn't have to be called passing. The concept itself, of being recognizable as female thus inherently meaning that I am more feminine than masculine, is what matters to me, and passing is just the word that is used to describe that, nothing more and nothing less. (To elaborate briefly, essentially I look at the problem as a culturally driven, and thus entirely reasonable, yet still somewhat pathological need to "pass", regardless of what we call it, and without inherent judgment to the concept of simply wanting or preferring to "pass".)

Unjust and unwarranted requirements on a segment of the population are never semantic.  Dress how you want, because you want to.  Plot whatever course you want in life.  Just don't think that if you don't meet the expectations of someone else that you have somehow screwed up.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 25, 2018, 03:29:52 PM

Unjust and unwarranted requirements on a segment of the population are never semantic.  Dress how you want, because you want to.  Plot whatever course you want in life.  Just don't think that if you don't meet the expectations of someone else that you have somehow screwed up.

I agree in full with your sentiment, all I am saying is there is a difference between focusing on the word (which is a matter of semantics) and focusing on the conditions that make the word mean what it does. Basically just that we can call it whatever, it won't make the underlying issue go away(the driving need to "pass"). The desire to blend in existed before the word passing was even part of the vernacular certainly.

It's not just the word that is problematic. If you don't see that our community is populated by aa lot of people who are terrified to be recognized as transgender, you aren't paying attention. We need to expose and actively resist ways of thinking that cast transgender people as less than. People are choosing to live in the closet because they don't think transgender people have value. This may be their choice, but it doesn't make it any less tragic.

Have you noticed the age demographic in this discussion?  Younger people are more willing to trade dignity and openness for acceptance. I predict that many of them will recognize, far too late, that this was a rotten deal.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 25, 2018, 12:02:42 PM
Sophia,

If I read you correctly, you transitioned to put an to end external misgendering, to which I can only say, "I'm sorry."  I hope that worked out for you, and even more so that this helped you align with inner truth.

Renae

I suffered from gender dysphoria.  I was getting misgendered by myself and others.  Misgendering happened because of my embodiment, and to a lesser extent because of my socialization.  So I changed my body, got my voice down, and immersed myself in women's culture.  I maintain a closed narrative.  Now I'm gendered correctly by myself and others, full stop.

My truth is that I'm female.  A gendering I elicit without qualification today.  So there's nothing to be sorry about!

Quote from: rmaddy on January 25, 2018, 03:29:52 PMUnjust and unwarranted requirements on a segment of the population are never semantic.  Dress how you want, because you want to.  Plot whatever course you want in life.  Just don't think that if you don't meet the expectations of someone else that you have somehow screwed up.

For someone suffering gender dsyphoria, this mindset you lay out may or may not work.  Because that's not how gendering works.

This is how gendering works:  People see your body, and they subconscious and automatically assign it as "male" or "female," based on fairly sophisticated "models" or "schematics" or "prototypes" that a lifetime of experience has taught us.  It's the same neural mechanism for distinguishing cats from dogs, or any other kind of basic level category.  That initial assignment may be changed given new information -- like the wrong voice, or a terrible faux pas, or a story of transition.  And again, that re-assignment process doesn't happen consciously. 

People can't help but assign gender, based on the "prototypes" they've learned over years and years of subconscious information gathering from on all the people they've ever met. 

If we want to be automatically gendered correctly, we have to resemble one prototype much more than the other. 
And stick to it.  That's how gender assignment actually works, whether we like it or not.  Now, most everyone here can agree that gender is declarative, rather than performative, but this understanding comes from our own experiences of dysphoria or cross-gender identification.  Out in the big bad world, the declarative mode is becoming more and more tolerated, even indulged, but I would argue that the gendering one receives from such a situation, where we are asking other people to consciously work against their own subconscious understanding, is not the same as the gendering that comes automatically.

This process, by the way, also happens when we look in the mirror.  Which is why so many people in this community either detest mirrors or love them, depending on where they are in their process.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 25, 2018, 03:47:33 PMIt's not just the word that is problematic. If you don't see that our community is populated by aa lot of people who are terrified to be recognized as transgender, you aren't paying attention. We need to expose and actively resist ways of thinking that cast transgender people as less than. People are choosing to live in the closet because they don't think transgender people have value. This may be their choice, but it doesn't make it any less tragic.

Have you noticed the age demographic in this discussion?  Younger people are more willing to trade dignity and openness for acceptance. I predict that many of them will recognize, far too late, that this was a rotten deal.

Our community is populated by a lot of people who are terrified to be misgendered, because that is what's at the source of so many suffering from dysphoria. Misgendering happens much more frequently when your embodiment doesn't match the phenotype of one's true gender.  It also happens more frequently when one doesn't maintain narrative privacy.  It doesn't happen at all, in my experience, when body and and narrative are aligned with the binary.

If there's a correlation between youth and transitioning to one's target gender (as opposed to transitioning into a "trans" social identity) it's likely to be that the young aren't as deeply enmeshed in the wrong life.  They haven't married, had children, had decades of the wrong hormones altering their bodies.  The young move on to live the lives of men and women, because they can. 

Of course, whether this is acceptable or "a rotten deal" depends on your personal truth.  If your personal truth is on the binary, then "trans" isn't an essence or identity, it's transitional, just like transition.  If your personal truth is aligned with the feelings of dysphoria and the process of transition itself, then it's likely better to be out, just like people who are gay or bi and can only make this socially known by being out about it (whether through words, or actions, or both).

What you and I don't get to do is to select what someone else's personal truth is or should be, especially in a place where gender is determined declaratively.  For someone who identifies on the binary, to live with the correct embodiment and a closed narrative isn't living in a closet... it's being completely free, finally, to live one's personal truth.  For many of us, the social identity of "trans" is a closet.

Quote from: Roll on January 25, 2018, 03:35:15 PM
I agree in full with your sentiment, all I am saying is there is a difference between focusing on the word (which is a matter of semantics) and focusing on the conditions that make the word mean what it does. Basically just that we can call it whatever, it won't make the underlying issue go away(the driving need to "pass"). The desire to blend in existed before the word passing was even part of the vernacular certainly.

I think Renae has a very good point, though, about focusing on the word.

I say this because I think the word comes loaded with connotations that are not healthy for us.  First and foremost being that the concept of "passing" implicitly suggests that one is not presenting one's self authentically.  Much like the word "stealth," which suggests hiding in shadows instead of living one's life openly and truthfully simply as the men and women we know ourselves to be.  Again, though, so much of this depends on that internal truth!

The driving need for most of us, I think, is to be gendered correctly, by ourselves and others.  So let's expand our vocabulary and say what it is we're really doing.  I'm not "passing," because I'm being true to my inner truth, so what I'm really doing is "eliciting female gendering."  (Not to suggest, though, that at this point I'm doing anything that might resemble "work" for that, it just happens all the time.) Likewise, I don't do "stealth"; rather, I "practice non-disclosure" in order to "maintain narrative privacy" -- what I call having a closed narrative. 

It think the vernacular really does matter.

Quote from: DawnOday on January 25, 2018, 03:17:36 PM
Passing for me is not important. Having respect and visibility is. It's about human rights. Not prejudice.

Excellent point of view!

Quote from: Sophia Sage on January 25, 2018, 04:54:14 PM
I suffered from gender dysphoria.  I was getting misgendered by myself and others.  Misgendering happened because of my embodiment, and to a lesser extent because of my socialization.  So I changed my body, got my voice down, and immersed myself in women's culture.  I maintain a closed narrative.  Now I'm gendered correctly by myself and others, full stop.

One of the professional truisms I live by is "Never be disappointed with a good outcome."  I am truly delighted about how well this is working for you.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on January 25, 2018, 04:54:14 PM
If we want to be automatically gendered correctly, we have to resemble one prototype much more than the other. 
And stick to it.

In 2018, agreed, and yet I am personally uncomfortable with an approach which says "This is the way it works and we must accept it."  Well, yes...or else we must change the world.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on January 25, 2018, 04:54:14 PM

Our community is populated by a lot of people who are terrified to be misgendered[As opposed to being recognized as transgender], because that is what's at the source of so many suffering from dysphoria.

It would be easier for me to accept this if there were not a discussion ongoing in another forum where a substantial cohort are explicitly saying that they would rather be misgendered than have their transgender identity implied by an honest question.  It would be easier for me to accept this if I did not read every day on this site some sort of lament that being transgender is horrible.  It would be easier for me to accept this if we didn't have a few post-ops regularly writing that there is no difference between them and cis women.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on January 25, 2018, 04:54:14 PM

If there's a correlation between youth and transitioning to one's target gender (as opposed to transitioning into a "trans" social identity) it's likely to be that the young aren't as deeply enmeshed in the wrong life.

100% agreed.  Late-stage transition is a mess.  The only potential advantages are that we may be somewhat more likely to have adequate finances and full legal independence.

Great post.

I strive to pass because it makes things less complicated.  I like being able to blend in and not arouse suspicion.  This is something I've done my whole life, especially when I was struggling to survive as the male I was expected to be.

The general public seems to accept me as a natal woman and I'm perfectly OK with this.  I'm not a preacher, I'm not a flag waver, and I don't advertise my birth defect.  (though I don't deny it if it comes up, but this is rare)  I was also blessed with physical features that allow this to happen once I put a lot of hard work into my voice and mannerisms.  I am thankful for the genetic lottery that I sort of won, and proud of the fruits of my labor.

Maybe this makes me a coward for not being out and proud.  I got the hero stuff out of my system a long time ago doing terrible things in lands far away. 

For now I am content to simply pass by without notice everywhere I go.  If you want to be loud and proud, go for it.  Heavens knows we need all the positive image we can get, but I can't be it.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 25, 2018, 03:47:33 PM
It's not just the word that is problematic. If you don't see that our community is populated by aa lot of people who are terrified to be recognized as transgender, you aren't paying attention. We need to expose and actively resist ways of thinking that cast transgender people as less than. People are choosing to live in the closet because they don't think transgender people have value. This may be their choice, but it doesn't make it any less tragic.

Have you noticed the age demographic in this discussion?  Younger people are more willing to trade dignity and openness for acceptance. I predict that many of them will recognize, far too late, that this was a rotten deal.

Personally I don't feel being outed as trans is dignified in any way. It's totally the opposite. I'm open with those I need to be, my boyfriend and family. I don't owe anyone else "openness" or any explanation of my former life. It's no ones business that I'm trans. I will never think passing as female and living a normal life as a woman, not a transwoman, was a  rotten deal. That's been my goal since I transitioned.

I have to agree with Julia. Passing is important in most of today's world. There are some places that don't care so much, but we all can't live there.

I'm also totally with Julia.  How on earth is passing as a woman a bad thing?  That's all I've ever wanted my entire life and now that I have it, it's the most amazing feeling I can imagine.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 25, 2018, 12:18:20 PM
SadieBlake,

Of course I am expressing my truth.  What else do I have to say?  Beyond that, I am contradicting what I see to be a societal lie, one that has imposed itself on us,
...
And, I don't really understand what disagreement exists between you and me, at least on principle.

Well there would be where you opened your post with this:

Quote
"Passing" is a destructive word, as are most words associated with it.  We never should have let it into our lexicon, and we ought to do what we can to get rid of it.

Passing as a concept originated with blacks in the US who could pass for white, thereby avoiding discrimination. "We" didn't invent the term or the concept.

And I disagree that the concept or construct of gender is purely societal, where almost all of the elements that matter to me are very much based in biology, including, as I said above the reason most people are trans.

Quote
....
Where you lost me is when you say that you accept the importance of passing because society does, and then assert that you feel good about being gender transgressive, implying that it makes it easier for other trans people when you buck the system.  Bravo to the latter, as far as I am concerned.

I'm not sure how you get to thinking I "feel good about being gender transgressive"
From:
"For the record I hate that I have few choices but to transgress gender norms"

To be more clear about my personal history, around '98 I accepted that I had no choice but to accept that in one way or another I would spend the rest of my life being sometimes visibly transgender and always emotionally feminine. It wasn't until 2015 that I accepted my need to medically transition and accepting being both non passable and far from my desired appearance as a female person as part of that.

I think it's critical to remember that for many trans people and especially trans women passing or not can be a matter of life or death. Honestly you characterize this as a problem with a simple solution. I simply don't think that word (passing) means what you think it means ;-). Being trans is very different for different people, allowing for that is key in my experience.

Finally, let me take on this:

QuoteLate-stage transition is a mess. 

Ahem.

I began HRT at age 59 and my orchiectomy, penectomy and pi vaginoplasty was performed a couple of weeks after my 61st birthday. I don't consider my transition to be in the least bit a mess, nor do I regret the nearly 20 years I spent getting to know myself as female. I'm quite glad that as I was transitioning quietly and emotionally, the world changed a lot also and I'm far better accepted and understood now than I was then and accordingly I think my transition was the smoothest possible route within all the other constraints in my life.

Quote from: Colleen_definitely on January 25, 2018, 09:30:17 PM
I like being able to blend in and not arouse suspicion.

This basically. If I want attention I want to be able to control what type of attention I get and when, I don't want to be constantly stared at, commented at, and made feel like a weirdo everywhere I go. I strive for a normal life.

Quote from: Charlie Nicki on January 26, 2018, 07:42:14 AM
This basically. If I want attention I want to be able to control what type of attention I get and when, I don't want to be constantly stared at, commented at, and made feel like a weirdo everywhere I go. I strive for a normal life.

+1.  I also agree with Colleen and Julia less complications and less hassle. 

Quote from: rmaddy on January 25, 2018, 08:48:37 PM

Quote from: SophiaIf we want to be automatically gendered correctly, we have to resemble one prototype much more than the other.
And stick to it.

In 2018, agreed, and yet I am personally uncomfortable with an approach which says "This is the way it works and we must accept it."  Well, yes...or else we must change the world.

When it comes to how our brains create and maintain basic-level categories, which happens subconsciously at the neurological level, I think we're dealing with a process that's akin to physics.  To suggest that we can "change the world" on this matter is like saying we can reverse gravity.

Not to say that we can't fly.  Of course we can.  Using aerodynamics, though, not reversing gravity. 

Here's the rub, and why this position isn't very popular.  This is not an all-inclusive proposition, not in 2018.  We don't have the sort of economy where everyone can afford to make such corrections to their bodies, and we don't have the technology in 2018 to make all the corrections that binary transitioners seek.  Not everyone can fly today -- not everyone can buy a ticket, and not everyone can withstand the change in cabin pressure.  That's what I consider the real tragedy.

Quote from: rmaddy

Quote from: SophiaOur community is populated by a lot of people who are terrified to be misgendered, as opposed to being recognized as transgender, because that is what's at the source of so many suffering from dysphoria.

It would be easier for me to accept this if there were not a discussion ongoing in another forum where a substantial cohort are explicitly saying that they would rather be misgendered than have their transgender identity implied by an honest question.  It would be easier for me to accept this if I did not read every day on this site some sort of lament that being transgender is horrible.  It would be easier for me to accept this if we didn't have a few post-ops regularly writing that there is no difference between them and cis women.

There's a lot to unpack here.

First, there are gender-based reasons why transitioners early in the process would rather be straight-up misgendered than identified as trans -- namely because being identified as trans out in the cis world is still a form of being misgendered!  So which form of misgendering does one take, the predictable "normal" version or the exoticised one with all kinds of unspoken and incorrect assumptions that can even jeopardize one's transition?  And for those who plan to practice non-disclosure in the future, limiting the spread of information about transition makes a lot of sense.

Why do transitioners lament their fate?  Because dysphoria sucks.  Because the material process of making that go away (medical transition) is long, painful, and expensive, and often not completely adequate.  Because most of the people who've known you from before transition will likely never see you as your true gender.  There are a lot of costs to this experience and a lot of horror.  You'll also see on this site, every day, someone expressing how happy they are at how things are going for them.  Because there are also a lot of wonderful experiences that can be had on this path. What we never hear is someone lamenting that they've been properly gendered.

Finally, a lot of us who transitioned long ago have discovered that it's possible to "transsex", to go all the way and grab the brass ring of a woman's life.  We've discovered that there's no more dysphoria, and that even our memories of long ago have changed.  We've found this to be immensely satisfying.  Our cure.  We identify as cis now, and consider the concepts of "cis" and "trans" to be mutable social categories (not "basic-level" categories like "man" and "woman") rather than some kind of fixed "essence."  I don't believe in essences, I believe in material reality and my lived experience of it. 

People like me return to the Oasis on occasion to pass on what we've learned, to provide other transitioners with another choice for how to get what they want... assuming they want to be gendered correctly on the binary. 

Quote from: Charlie Nicki on January 26, 2018, 07:42:14 AM
This basically. If I want attention I want to be able to control what type of attention I get and when, I don't want to be constantly stared at, commented at, and made feel like a weirdo everywhere I go. I strive for a normal life.

I won't ever be able to totally just blend in and have a normal life. People stare, comment and whisper about me all the time. There aren't that many albino people running around Denver. I don't like that kind of attention but I've learned to deal with it. The attention is basically curiosity. People don't insult me. The attention an obvious trans person gets can be totally hostile. Before transition when I was just very androgynous I got contempt from people. Terms like fagot, >-bleeped-<, shim and freak were thrown around. Once I transitioned and became passable that all stopped. The unwanted attention I get now is just curiosity about my albinism, it's not hostile. That's a big reason being passable is so important to me. I know there are trans people who don't pass and have to deal with ignorance and cruelty daily. Those people are much stronger than I am. I just couldn't deal with that. Life is just so much easier if people don't know you're trans.

I will probably have half the people on the site showing up outside my house with torches for saying this, but I think the whole "Trans pride" thing has the potential to be disastrous for young transitioners. They can get all caught up in the trans pride thing and it can seem like something they believe in at the time but it can destroy their lives later in life. A lot of people who transition young have the ability to pass without question. They have YouTube channels, and are known as transpeople on Facebook. The internet is forever. Once you do YouTube, come out as trans on Facebook or splash a million pictures of yourself all over the internet, you can kiss any possibility of living stealth goodbye. A lot of transpeople say they don't care if people know they are trans. Not now maybe.  Fast forward a few years. You've met a guy who loves and accepts you and you've settled into a basically normal life. Then someone runs across an old YouTube show you did or finds your old Facebook. Your stealth life is over. Not only does this effect you but your husband or boyfriend too. Everyone he works with and all his friends are going to know you're trans. Once one person knows you're trans it will spread like wildfire. People can be very nasty to guys who have a trans girlfriend or wife. Their sexuality comes under attack. Maybe his family didn't know but they do now. That could be extremely embarrassing for him. And a trans person who does a reality show, forget it! That girl Jazz Jansen is only ever going to be known as a trans girl. Maybe she doesn't care now but TV shows run their course. Once people lose interest in her and her show is over she has no chance of ever leading a normal life. She's always going to be known as that transgirl. People also think because shows like hers and Caitlyn Jenner have lots of viewers, that society is becoming more accepting and supportive of trans people. Don't kid yourself!  For a lot of people those shows are nothing more than freakshow entertainment.

I think it's a huge mistake for a transpeople to make themselves known all over social media. It's a decision you're stuck with for life. Once you do that there's no chance you can ever be stealth later on if you change your mind.

A couple hundred years ago two-spirit people freely walked this country. Europeans ruined that.

I proudly walk openly as different from other people. It saddens me to see people living to please others. Humans are called sheeple with good reason.  Count me as a flock of my own.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 26, 2018, 09:25:17 AM
A couple hundred years ago two-spirit people freely walked this country. Europeans ruined that.

I proudly walk openly as different from other people. It saddens me to see people living to please others. Humans are called sheeple with good reason.  Count me as a flock of my own.

Given your own unique self-conception, this is quite possibly the only way to fully express yourself.

It disheartens me, though, to see you suggesting that the desire to be correctly gendered on the binary (for those of us who don't identify as "two-spirited" or as anything other than male or female) is "living to please others" -- really, it's just another way of living to please ourselves.

Except when the thoughts of people who you can't control causes you harm. That's living to please them.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 26, 2018, 10:34:13 AMExcept when the thoughts of people who you can't control causes you harm. That's living to please them.

Gendering goes beyond the internal assignment we all make upon each other -- it also informs subsequent interaction.  Interactions which then go on to implicitly say "he" or "she."  And I'm sorry, but I won't subject myself to any kind of misgendering.  This really is all about pleasing myself.  Other people?  They gender me female automatically, without conscious thought, and this happens whether they are pleased or not. 

Maybe I'm wielding more control than we're giving myself credit for!  But really, I don't think we live in isolation from other people.  It's through interaction with others that we come to know ourselves; we are all mirrors to each other.  So how people respond to me matters. 

Again, this is all about living on the binary.  Such advice isn't applicable to those who don't identify on the binary.

Quote from: Julia1996 on January 26, 2018, 09:08:31 AMI will probably have half the people on the site showing up outside my house with torches for saying this, but I think the whole "Trans pride" thing has the potential to be disastrous for young transitioners.

I wasn't aware of "trans pride," but from your description I agree completely.

It's easy to see how people who are suffering abuse can turn to that sort of attitude; but, really, is misdirected, imho. True pride is about embracing who you are, regardless of what others think of you, not about making public statements, etc.

I don't pass, and won't without surgery. Maybe even with surgery. I was nearly 60 before I started HRT; testosterone did its work on me. Maybe it's my age, maybe it's my experience of being an outcast all of my life, more or less; but it was obvious to me from the beginning that being trans isn't about passing. It's about being authentic, being true to yourself. Naturally, we'd like others to treat us as our true genders; but the real challenge isn't what they think of us, but what we think of ourselves.

I really appreciate what you said about not being strong enough. You must know that you're drop-dead gorgeous. :) But you also have insight that can only come from suffering. Good cards, bad cards; we all have some of each. I'm amazed that you're not even 20. You're quite a girl.

Keep sharing.

Quote from: Julia1996 on January 26, 2018, 09:08:31 AM
I think it's a huge mistake for a transpeople to make themselves known all over social media. It's a decision you're stuck with for life. Once you do that there's no chance you can ever be stealth later on if you change your mind.

I see your point but I don't fully agree. I think being out about your trans status is liberating. To me, being stealth means being inside another closet...Sorry but not what I want. Passing is one thing, stealth is another. I want to be able to look, behave, and sound like a cis woman, but not having to hide my trans status or my history. I don't see a point in getting out of a lie just to start another.

Quote from: SadieBlake on January 26, 2018, 12:05:33 AM

Passing as a concept originated with blacks in the US who could pass for white, thereby avoiding discrimination. "We" didn't invent the term or the concept.

...and we should not accept it, let alone get all worried about whether we meet the standard. 

What would you say in 1955 to an African American concerned about passing?  Would you encourage them and give them tips, or would you tell them to be proud of themselves as they were, and to never let anyone else tell them that their value depended on the lightness of their skin?

Quote from: Charlie Nicki on January 26, 2018, 02:11:53 PM
I see your point but I don't fully agree. I think being out about your trans status is liberating. To me, being stealth means being inside another closet...Sorry but not what I want. Passing is one thing, stealth is another. I want to be able to look, behave, and sound like a cis woman, but not having to hide my trans status or my history. I don't see a point in getting out of a lie just to start another.

This sums me up too!

Quote from: rmaddy on January 26, 2018, 03:13:08 PM
...and we should not accept it, let alone get all worried about whether we meet the standard. 

What would you say in 1955 to an African American concerned about passing?  Would you encourage them and give them tips, or would you tell them to be proud of themselves as they were, and to never let anyone else tell them that their value depended on the lightness of their skin?

I made the point you're quoting purely as a clarification of where the language originated. I expect that the concept and practical need will still exist long after I'm gone. That doesn't mean I like this fact, simply I acknowledge it to be an element if many people's experiences. See for instance Thoreau on the subject of clothing.

I don't presume to advise anyone about matters of their health, safety, income etc until and unless I'm asked and then my thinking is usually around analyzing the options. I basically never say "should" to people on matters of identity. Like you I'm an activist working to build a society in which these choices become meaningless in terms of people's safety and livelihood. We might have different approaches, priorities etc, however hopefully we're all doing good work we believe in.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 26, 2018, 09:25:17 AM
A couple hundred years ago two-spirit people freely walked this country. Europeans ruined that.

Well, in the tribes that accommodated them, anyway.  Something I've always wonder about the romanticization of Native American trans customs is whether any tribes were strictly binary - or  transphobic.  (feathers being ruffled)  Come on, entertain the possibility; let's find out the truth.  I always enjoy educating people on how many of the tribes right here in the Pacific Northwest - and all over the continent, of course - practiced slavery. 

Finding out how commonplace the berdache were is on a long long long list of subjects I'm curious about.  And, for the record, I have no beef at all with those who want to pursue the non-binary.

You worry about unlocking the secrets of the past, I'm working on making the world a more open, accepting place where the only thing you have to pass at is not falling off the planet.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 26, 2018, 07:48:02 PM
You worry about unlocking the secrets of the past, I'm working on making the world a more open, accepting place where the only thing you have to pass at is not falling off the planet.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

Gravity is a rough pass/fail.  :-X

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 26, 2018, 09:25:17 AM
A couple hundred years ago two-spirit people freely walked this country. Europeans ruined that.

They did, and those native peoples did seem to have provision for another view on gender.

However many of those native peoples were at war with one another too and when they did fight, they were merciless. They were known to kill everyone among the enemy and take no prisoners, no mercy even for the children.

All cultures have their ugly underbelly. At least for now what that European culture has become is one that pioneered GRS and transition procedures and also leads the world in terms of acceptance movements. Is that worth something too?

Quote from: Charlie Nicki on January 26, 2018, 02:11:53 PM
I see your point but I don't fully agree. I think being out about your trans status is liberating. To me, being stealth means being inside another closet...Sorry but not what I want. Passing is one thing, stealth is another. I want to be able to look, behave, and sound like a cis woman, but not having to hide my trans status or my history. I don't see a point in getting out of a lie just to start another.

When it comes to behavior, cis women don't disclose a history of transition.

For most people out in the cis world, if you're being gendered correctly and you "come out" with a story of transition, you're basically asking folks to start treating you differently.  That's the whole point of the ritual of coming out.  Worse, it's exactly the story that invites people to misgender you, intentionally or not.  Not exactly what I'd recommend to someone who has suffered gender dysphoria.  At best (if people really like you) you will be indulged as opposed to being freely given what is rightfully yours.

To me, the whole point of this is to live without dysphoria, right? 

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 26, 2018, 07:48:02 PM
You worry about unlocking the secrets of the past, I'm working on making the world a more open, accepting place where the only thing you have to pass at is not falling off the planet.  :)

It's a nice sentiment, but proper gendering is not the same as "acceptance."

 :police:
Lets keep in mind TOS 9 folks. Thanks
Mariah

Quote from: suzifrommd on January 16, 2015, 07:29:47 PM
I'm curious to hear from other transfolk of both genders. Is your interest in passing driven solely by practical concerns (social acceptance, for example), or does it run deeper? Is it somehow tied to your image of yourself as a member of your identified gender?

I've long ago abandoned the idea that I will ever see in the mirror what I had hoped for decades to see.  But passing is definitely important.  I want who I am, and not what I am, to be how people I meet and socialize with see me.  There are still enough people in the world who won't even give you the time of day if they know you are trans.  How can they ever get to know you then?

To the best of my knowledge, no one in the city in which I live knows I'm trans.  But I'm reasonably certain everyone who knows me knows I am a no-attempt-to-be-girly lesbian.  That's who I am.  Attracted to women with no interest in getting all dolled up. 

One would think that anyone to whom passing is important would put forth their best effort to pass.  Yet I often do not wear even a trace of makeup, even though I know that my "maleness" may be more obvious without it.  So while the need to pass is there, the need to be me is often in conflict with passing. 

I'll let Freud figure that one out.  I've got some trees to fell.  ;)     

Quote from: Julie Marie on January 27, 2018, 08:41:37 AMOne would think that anyone to whom passing is important would put forth their best effort to pass.  Yet I often do not wear even a trace of makeup, even though I know that my "maleness" may be more obvious without it.  So while the need to pass is there, the need to be me is often in conflict with passing.

I know all kinds of lesbians who don't wear makeup, and they get gendered female just fine. 

A few I've known, though, have reported isolated incidents of being misgendered.  One woman was a big woman with short hair, and she just laughed at the grocery store clerk with a comment of "Really?"  The clerk quickly apologized.  Another, a short wiry women with chopped hair, no curves, and a slight goatee, also said as much, though she found it much more disconcerting and baffling.  Both were from the American South.

For both of them, all it took was speaking to have the misgendering amended and apologized for.   Which kind of demonstrates that people really do know that misgendering is rude.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on January 27, 2018, 10:23:12 AM
I know all kinds of lesbians who don't wear makeup, and they get gendered female just fine. 

Unfortunately makeup even on cis women skews our perceptions quite a bit. If you look at random no makeup celebrity photos, you see so many stronger jaw lines, broader noses, etc. than you ever realized they had. Same deal with body shapers when going below the neck, they are absurdly common now and in the past. Most women do not have true hourglass figures.

Ultimately though, that's my real goal... walk outside the house with no makeup, and without having to put on a wig, and be read as female. I'm not a makeup person.

Quote from: Roll on January 27, 2018, 10:44:11 AMUnfortunately makeup even on cis women skews our perceptions quite a bit.

All these women wearing makeup must be wearing it for a reason!

QuoteIf you look at random no makeup celebrity photos, you see so many stronger jaw lines, broader noses, etc. than you ever realized they had. Same deal with body shapers when going below the neck, they are absurdly common now and in the past. Most women do not have true hourglass figures.

Ultimately though, that's my real goal... walk outside the house with no makeup, and without having to put on a wig, and be read as female. I'm not a makeup person.

For me it took facial surgery to get gendered correctly without makeup.  And shortly thereafter I went sans makeup for about a decade. 

Eliciting the correct gendering all the time really does come down to embodiment, including voice.  It's over the long term that certain kinds of social skills, enculturation, and narrative matter.

I asked this in a separate thread and maybe should have been just part of this one.

There is a lot of emphasis in our need to pass as women both physically and emotionally.  Emotions, I think most can do it.  Physical acceptance is the hardest for us.  When we picture ourselves as women we think we should project beauty as the number one attribute.
In the last week I have looked many women in the eye and studied their face. 50% of them I could say are they transgender?  The average success I think we should hope on is looking like 50% of cis-women with a lower percentage on each side of that success.

You're conflating things.  You really can make peace with the man or woman in the mirror without giving a thought to passing.  It's liberating, and durable--you don't lose value based on what anyone else thinks or says, and you never have to deal with fear of discovery.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 27, 2018, 01:35:15 PM
You're conflating things.  You really can make peace with the man or woman in the mirror without giving a thought to passing.  It's liberating, and durable--you don't lose value based on what anyone else thinks or says, and you never have to deal with fear of discovery.

It truly is just a matter of owning it and living life.  Without the mental baggage.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 27, 2018, 01:35:15 PMYou're conflating things.  You really can make peace with the man or woman in the mirror without giving a thought to passing.  It's liberating, and durable--you don't lose value based on what anyone else thinks or says, and you never have to deal with fear of discovery.

That would have been nice if it actually worked, but for me the social aspect to gender is what's most important to me.  I needed to be gendered in one way only, by the whole world; this had nothing to do with having "value."  So I took the steps necessary to achieve that, and then to maintain that.  But that was all, like, nearly two decades ago.  It's not something that takes any kind of work in the here and now.

A lot of people, people who are now lost to me, said way back in the day that there was no reason to transition at all, that I didn't need to change my body, didn't need to insist on correct pronouns or change my name or anything like that.  Couldn't I just wear a dress, preferably in private?  Well, they were wrong.  Because the source of my dysphoria was being misgendered, by myself and others.  And dysphoria isn't something that can just be whisked away by "making peace" or anything like that.  If it could, there's be a whole lot fewer people on these boards.

Here's what's liberating: Being gendered correctly, all the time, for nearly two decades.  Such freedom!  To be exactly who I know myself to be!  And it's nothing I fear losing -- why should I, when it's completely apparent to myself and everyone around exactly who I am?

So what happens if you're misgendered tomorrow?

Quote from: rmaddy on January 27, 2018, 01:35:15 PM
You're conflating things.  You really can make peace with the man or woman in the mirror without giving a thought to passing.  It's liberating, and durable--you don't lose value based on what anyone else thinks or says, and you never have to deal with fear of discovery.

I agree that you can make peace in the mirror.  What my comment was inferring was that we all have a chance to look like what I feel is 50% of cis-women, there will be the ultimate success of being gorgeous (yes gorgeous women do exist) for some of us, and unfortunately there will be some of us that won't be as fortunate.  But the rest of us will look like that 50%.

I feel your ire and I hope it's clearer what I meant.

(((Jessica is hugging rmaddy)))

Quote from: rmaddy on January 27, 2018, 03:27:10 PM
So what happens if you're misgendered tomorrow?

I'll speak, and then I'll receive an apology, just like any other cis woman who gets misgendered. 

But I won't be misgendered tomorrow.  Those days are long gone. :)

Quote from: Sophia Sage on January 27, 2018, 05:02:31 PM
I'll speak, and then I'll receive an apology, just like any other cis woman who gets misgendered. 

But I won't be misgendered tomorrow.  Those days are long gone. :)

Fair enough.  Do you think you are a cis woman?

Here are some unfortunately disjointed comments:

On some level, passing is about pain avoidance.  It hurts me to be called sir, to be referred to by male pronouns etc.etc.  So of course I am going to avoid that pain and seek pleasure.

I transitioned socially as soon as I disclosed to myself.  That transitioning happened within the context of my progressive Midwestern religious congregation.  I'm tall and balding and have the ability to grow facial hair, but yet I in effect told people that I was a woman and wanted to be treated as such without providing any visual evidence to back up my request, other than dressing in a gender appropriate fashion.  On that level, I feel that passing is something I owe to the people I have come out to.  I feel that I am obligated to minimize their suspension of disbelief.  So now I usually show up wearing a beret to hide my lack of hair, and I will wear breast forms and at least mascara and lipstick and I only wear female clothing.

I'm not really out at work.  I show up in my chinos and button-down oxford shirts without makeup and with my balding spots clearly showing.  But when I look in the mirror, I see a woman.  I do consistently wear floral ties, predominately in pink and lavender.  I see that as a small act of resistance.  But still, it's all very drab and ugly and nasty.  I look at myself in the mirror and just feel awful that I have to hide what I see in the mirror from my customers and staff.

At home I have two cats that like to jump in my lap and crawl all over me, so I don't like to wear my gender appropriate clothing because they'll just ruin it with their claws and cover my clothes with their fur.  I'm not going to stop my cats from using me just because I need to pass. So I'm sitting here wearing some girly sleep shorts and a woman's shirred teeshirt.  And Humphrey Wumphrey is busy kneading me and I wouldn't have it any way, except...

Last night was different.  I wore makeup, put on a wig and some breast forms and took selfies.  My profile pic is a result of last night.  Do I pass?  Would I be clocked?  I assume I would be clocked, although I hope I'm wrong.  In any case, look at my eyes.  Am I not happy?  Are my eyes not full of joy?  Do I not look indomitable?  Am I not a woman? 

I posted the pic you see as my Facebook profile pic last night.  I look at it all the time.  I feel happy.  I enjoy the loving comments I've received, often from Facebook friends who are truly encountering me for the first time.  I am beautiful and I enjoy my friends affirmation of that simple core fact of who I am.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 27, 2018, 05:12:13 PM
Fair enough.  Do you think you are a cis woman?

I'm a woman.  And I consider myself cisgendered for the time being.

See, I don't think "cis" and "trans" are real or objective categories; rather, they are social constructions.  As I see it, "being trans" means suffering from some kind of dysphoria, and having some kind of social narrative of transition or cross-gendered identification.  I don't have dysphoria, I don't get misgendered, and I don't maintain a trans social narrative.  This is what cisgendered people (don't) experience.

I think the social categories of "trans" and "cis" are not fixed or permanent states of being.  We slip in and out of them, depending on social milieu.  In my own experience, the social milieu of this forum, and places like it, are safe places to share our experiences without being misgendered; in this milieu, gender is declarative, and no one can argue what someone else's personal truth of identity is or should be.  So I can "be trans" here without compromising my gendering. 

It's much the same with my immediate family, but in that space I'm the one responsible for maintaining my boundaries when it comes to gender.  Thankfully, my family has responded impeccably to my requests.  They know if they don't they'll lose me.  My family is great.

The place I'm happiest, though, is where I'm cis, which is pretty much everywhere else. 

To some extent I'm employing a common metaphor -- we describe our mental states as locations.  For example, we can find ourselves "in" a state of depression, as if it were a body of water.   Anyways, I think of gender as residing in two cities (I call them the Citadels), one male and one female.  In between these two places is a massive wasteland, and in the middle of the wasteland there is now a thriving Oasis for everyone who doesn't live in the Citadels. 

To move from one Citadel to another is a daunting task which requires passage through the Oasis. But here it gets complicated. Some people realize they prefer the Oasis to either Citadel.  Others find they can't pass the Citadel gates; they have no choice but to live in the Oasis.  And some forget that they were going to the other Citadel, because the Oasis is now a really fabulous place.

I live in the Citadel, and occasionally pop out to visit the Oasis. 

There's another factor to consider about being a known trans person. Safety. People hate us, want to hurt us and kill us. Look at the number of transwomen killed each year. Being known as trans increases the odds you're going to be assaulted or killed. I saw a show a long time ago about a transwoman in Florida. People spray painted slurs on her house, threw rocks through her window, vandalized her car and killed her cat. These are things that can happen when everyone knows your trans. Someone's going to say that was an isolated incident but it's not. Stuff like that happens to trans people everywhere. The biggest concern my dad had about my transition was that someone would hurt or kill me. Once it was obvious I could pass easily he told me not to ever tell anyone I was trans. It wasn't that he was ashamed of having a trans daughter, he's Proven a hundred times over that he's not, he was afraid someone would hurt or kill me if they found out I was trans. All the media attention and TV shows about trans people would have you believe people are becoming more accepting of trans people. But really these shows are like the old circus freakshows they had 100 years ago. They simply describe it as a medical problem now. Check out Body Bizarre on discovery health. It's labeled as a medical show but it's just a freakshow that exploits those poor people who were born with defects.

Despite the fact society seems more accepting of us don't doubt for one second that there are plenty of people out there who hate us and want to hurt or kill us. Telling people you are trans if you don't have to is just dangerous.

Julia, it is awful that some people treat anyone that way.  Wrong!  I can see that this real safety reason is why passing or stealth is extremely important to many.  I hope these incidents are few and infrequent, and better yet, never happenning.

A professional football player who ended his professional career is known in one way as a "former" professional football player.  I suppose that should be true then for a cis-man who did everything physically and emotionally he thought was necessary for him to transition as a trans woman, that is, it seems that she would be accepted as a woman, and if people knew about her transition, also known as a "former" trans woman?  Or is one always a trans woman?

I don't know how you do it Sophia.  I have found that the energy required to maintain a closed narrative 100% of the time is more that I am capable of.  When I tell stories, I am always slipping up.  e.g.  "That was when I used to work as a busboy."  oops.  "I went to ______ High School (what was then an all boys High School)." oops.

My past just has this persistent habit of creeping into all my stories.

And there's my history of living as a man and being socialized as a boy.  I just have no female stories to tell.

Quote from: Roll on January 27, 2018, 10:44:11 AM
Unfortunately makeup even on cis women skews our perceptions quite a bit. If you look at random no makeup celebrity photos, you see so many stronger jaw lines, broader noses, etc. than you ever realized they had. Same deal with body shapers when going below the neck, they are absurdly common now and in the past. Most women do not have true hourglass figures.

I very much believe that one does not truly pass physically (at least terms of being able to live stealth) unless one can do it without makeup and regardless (at least reasonably) of how one is dressed... and that is not something that is in reach of everyone who wants that in the extremely trans aware age where the "muggles" know about FFS etc from people like Caitlyn Jenner

So these days FFS is not enough to tip the scale for the who have an unfortunate body type/proportions.

I had SRS over 19 years ago and FFS (Dr. O) over 18 years ago... While FFS lessened how often I got read visually, it did not eliminate it.

For those that are unlucky, overall size/shape/proportions, big hands and feet and an number of more subtle things, when they are significant, can't be completely overcome by FFS, makeup etc... Though the right choice of makeup and clothes can help- sometimes a good bit...

But one cannot live one's whole life perfectly put together in all situations, hence my definition of passing. Some of us can get there, and some simply can't.

Over the years I have run into very few TSes that did not pass well and who really did not care about that... though some were not vocal about those feelings unless you were with them in an unguarded moment.

- Karen

Quote from: Janes Groove on January 28, 2018, 09:43:25 AM
  "I went to ______ High School (what was then an all boys High School)." oops.

While I went to an all male high school, it went coed the year after I graduated... Being that I am now in my early 60s i don't worry about THAT outing me. I doubt many would know what year they went coed, and even if they did,  they would need to know my exact age and then do the math, something that is highly unlikely!

- karen

Quote from: Julia1996 on January 28, 2018, 08:41:32 AMAll the media attention and TV shows about trans people would have you believe people are becoming more accepting of trans people. But really these shows are like the old circus freakshows they had 100 years ago. They simply describe it as a medical problem now. Check out Body Bizarre on discovery health. It's labeled as a medical show but it's just a freakshow that exploits those poor people who were born with defects.

Despite the fact society seems more accepting of us don't doubt for one second that there are plenty of people out there who hate us and want to hurt or kill us. Telling people you are trans if you don't have to is just dangerous.

This is all true.

I don't like it as an argument for practicing non-disclosure.  I don't want to live out of fear; I'd rather live from my bliss.  But even in non-dangerous environments (for example, a very progressive church) the quality of gendering received differs if disclosure has happened.

As an activist, I find that "not passing" distracts from and is often used to invalidate my messages. 

Not passing is also a bit of a safety issue. I was assaulted twice in 2017 as a trans person, although other terms were used by the assailant.

I do NOT live stealth, however. I will disclose my being trans where it is useful in education or communicating a point. I did this as part of my message for unity and love in the Women's March January 20th.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180128/e3cb8245b0188ca54169b45a0075771c.jpg)

I'm obviously trying to pass, with the hair, makeup, and wardrobe. I am a woman, after all, and in Western  culture with its patriarchal gender binary model, I have to fit in as well as possible to avoid being "other", marginalized and ignored as a taboo person. I do not want my message ignored.

That sort of defeats my purpose.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Karen_A on January 28, 2018, 10:04:18 AM
that is not something that is in reach of everyone who wants that in the extremely trans aware age where the "muggles" know about FFS etc from people like Caitlyn Jenner

So these days FFS is not enough to tip the scale for the who have an unfortunate body type/proportions.

There is a flipside to the current awareness though... even 100% cis women are sometimes labeled as being trans. "Oh, she had a slightly large head, must be trans." Look at Michelle Obama, a lot of people were dead serious about saying she was trans. Kesha is another example people became convinced was trans. That muddies the water quite a bit I think, and means that some "accusations" (that sounds negative and I don't mean it to be, I just don't know another word to use here that is value neutral with the same gist) of being trans are pretty much meaningless and would have happened to many cis women too. I've read stories about even basic surgery scars (hysterectomies even!) arousing suspicion. Basically, if it's one of those jackasses running around accusing every woman who doesn't match a random actress's proportions or thinking women can't be over 5'5'', it's probably not even worth worrying about to begin with no matter how important passing is to someone. They aren't based on any real critical attention to detail, and for every trans woman they correctly label they probably said the same thing to 20 cis women.

Quote from: Michelle_P on January 28, 2018, 12:00:25 PM

I do NOT live stealth, however. I will disclose my being trans where it is useful in education or communicating a point. I did this as part of my message for unity and love in the Women's March January 20th.

This just reminded me of one other thought I had... One thing I want to be absolutely sure of is that my extended family, particularly kids, are very aware of who I am and that I am trans, even if I were to luck up and 100% pass. (Though as I said before, I wouldn't live stealth regardless. But I wouldn't advertise anymore than anyone would advertise anything about themselves that just sort of is.) It is very important for me to let any family suffering in silence to know they aren't alone. Though I confess, I feel like my actual responsibility ends at family. (Which is not to say I wouldn't reach out to others, simply that it would be something I view as a good thing to do, but not something that is incumbent upon me to do.)

Quote from: Sophia Sage on January 27, 2018, 10:23:12 AM
I know all kinds of lesbians who don't wear makeup, and they get gendered female just fine. 

I doubt there's a cis lesbian as close to the gender boarder as where I live.  There's something Mother Nature does from birth that I will never even get close to.  I'm constantly surprised I pass.  One slip in the voice and I'm ready to do a Barry White song. Add broad shoulders, narrow hips and hands created by decades from handling tools.  No idea why I don't get clocked.  Maybe it's the weapons of mass distraction.  ::)

Quote from: Michelle_P on January 28, 2018, 12:00:25 PM


I'm obviously trying to pass, with the hair, makeup, and wardrobe.

Not to me.  I dress the same way you do every day without ever "trying to pass". 

Quote from: rmaddy on January 28, 2018, 05:28:20 PM
Not to me.  I dress the same way you do every day without ever "trying to pass".

Kind of you, but I suspect that without doing the hair, makeup, and wardrobe I don't pass as a woman.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180128/b6d180ad7566066cabd1777afd89437c.jpg)



My point here is that I specifically alter my appearance from this to something like my avatar every day, as a deliberate action to more closely look like what Western culture deems acceptable as it's binary "woman".  This serves to improve my social acceptance as a woman within the current dominant culture, and so acts to relieve a certain amount of anxiety and dysphoria related to social non acceptance.

This form of social acceptance as my identified gender by others i encounter within this culture is what I am referring to as 'passing'.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I try to let people know I'm a boygirl, am I "passing" at it?

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Michelle_P on January 28, 2018, 05:39:26 PM
Kind of you, but I suspect that without doing the hair, makeup, and wardrobe I don't pass as a woman.

For whom do you get dressed?

Quote from: rmaddy on January 28, 2018, 07:01:46 PM
For whom do you get dressed?

I specifically alter my appearance from this to something like my avatar every day, as a deliberate action to more closely look like what Western culture deems acceptable as it's binary "woman".  This serves to improve my social acceptance as a woman within the current dominant culture, and so acts to relieve a certain amount of anxiety and dysphoria related to social non acceptance.

This also reduces the odds that I will be assaulted, in my opinion.

Besides, the local gendarmes become annoyed if I walk down the street unclothed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Michelle_P on January 28, 2018, 07:08:19 PM

Quote from: rmaddy on January 28, 2018, 07:01:46 PM
For whom do you get dressed?

I specifically alter my appearance from this to something like my avatar every day, as a deliberate action to more closely look like what Western culture deems acceptable as it's binary "woman".  This serves to improve my social acceptance as a woman within the current dominant culture, and so acts to relieve a certain amount of anxiety and dysphoria related to social non acceptance.

Besides, the local gendarmes become annoyed if I walk down the street unclothed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last time I walked down the street naked 42 cruisers from 3 towns slow chased me for 45 minutes.  >:-)

Quote from: Devlyn Marie
Last time I walked down the street naked 42 cruisers from 3 towns slow chased me for 45 minutes.  >:-)

Yeah, it can be an attention-getter.

Now, picture that face I posted on top of a 36-28-37 figure, B cup breasts. Howzat for an attention getter?  🤪


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Michelle_P on January 28, 2018, 07:08:19 PM
I specifically alter my appearance from this to something like my avatar every day, as a deliberate action to more closely look like what Western culture deems acceptable as it's binary "woman".  This serves to improve my social acceptance as a woman within the current dominant culture, and so acts to relieve a certain amount of anxiety and dysphoria related to social non acceptance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, this. 

My wife asks why I need to dress as I do and wear the make up that I do, that most women don't.

I told her that no one calls her sir when she doesn't. 

 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Quote from: TonyaW on January 28, 2018, 07:18:47 PM

Yes, this. 

My wife asks why I need to dress as I do and wear the make up that I do, that most women don't.

I told her that no one calls her sir when she doesn't. 

Yes.  In order to be accepted as women in this culture, we need to provide sufficient gender cues to be read as "likely female" by the neural networks in a viewers preoptic cortex. Failing to do this will result in being read as "likely male"

Note that cultural conditioning doesn't retrain this part of the brain. A more "accepting" person has learned to try and disregard the gender signals from the primitive visual systems in favor of what their conscious mind sees, a person attempting to present a certain gender appearance.

They may still slip when distracted, resulting in accidental misgendering.

"Passing" involves altering our appearance so as to improve the odds the primitive visual centers will signal "likely female", when in a culture where people do not have the learned behaviors in being more accepting, or cultures lacking the "third gender"/gender continuum concepts.

Alas, altering a culture so significantly as to shift its gender model takes time, enough time for several generations to be born and die. Wishful thinking aside, we have to deal with the culture pretty much as it stands.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Of course, non-binaries scoff at all these primitive notions.   :)

It's entirely possible to want to look nice, according to whatever you imagine nice to be, without giving a rat's ass to what others think or feeling like you owe them something in your presentation.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 28, 2018, 08:47:15 PM
It's entirely possible to want to look nice, according to whatever you imagine nice to be, without giving a rat's ass to what others think or feeling like you owe them something in your presentation.

There is a lot of this in there for me also.

But the why I do it every day is what Michelle said

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Quote from: Janes Groove on January 28, 2018, 09:43:25 AMI don't know how you do it Sophia.  I have found that the energy required to maintain a closed narrative 100% of the time is more that I am capable of.  When I tell stories, I am always slipping up.  e.g.  "That was when I used to work as a busboy."  oops.  "I went to ______ High School (what was then an all boys High School)." oops.

My past just has this persistent habit of creeping into all my stories.

And there's my history of living as a man and being socialized as a boy.  I just have no female stories to tell.

"That was when I bussed tables." 

If you're someone who likes telling stories, take some time to practice telling them in a way that reflects your present truth.  More, actively "remember" yourself correctly when digging into those memories.  If you like playing sports and climbing trees when you were a little girl, you say you were a tomboy growing up.  You have female stories to tell, you have always been female.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 28, 2018, 05:44:00 PM
I try to let people know I'm a boygirl, am I "passing" at it?

There's no such thing as "passing" for non-binary.  We don't have a single "image" or "prototype" for what non-binary looks like. 

So I imagine the most effective way to create and reinforce the social category that reflects your inner truth is through the ritual of coming out.

Quote from: Michelle_P on January 28, 2018, 07:08:19 PMI specifically alter my appearance from this to something like my avatar every day, as a deliberate action to more closely look like what Western culture deems acceptable as it's binary "woman".  This serves to improve my social acceptance as a woman within the current dominant culture, and so acts to relieve a certain amount of anxiety and dysphoria related to social non acceptance.

You do this to elicit female gendering.  Proper gendering alleviates your dysphoria.

I wonder to what extent.  Self-love/self-acceptance alleviates it completely.

I know from personal experience that this isn't true. We would like to think or feel that it is, however it isn't. I can certainly how one can b believe that is the magic cure to dysphoria but it isn't. Hugs
Mariah

Quote from: Sophia Sage on January 29, 2018, 06:41:50 AM
You do this to elicit female gendering.  Proper gendering alleviates your dysphoria.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 29, 2018, 12:13:32 PMI wonder to what extent.  Self-love/self-acceptance alleviates it completely.

Accepting and loving the fact that I'm female through-and-through made a huge difference in my happiness, absolutely!  It's just that it's made me even happier that everyone else recognizes that I'm female, too. :)

So no, self-acceptance did not completely alleviate my dysphoria.  That was only the beginning.  And even that depended on finally realizing who I actually am, something each of us can only determine for ourselves.

It really depends on what actually triggers dysphoria in the first place.  Not everyone reports the same experience.  Some transitioners get dysphoric only with respect to certain aspects of their bodies, others get dysphoria with respect to their social identity, and many face it on all fronts.  I don't think we get to choose.  Just like we don't really get to choose our inner truth; rather, it is something for each of us to discover.

The thing is, emotional responses happen subconsciously.  And we don't have direct access to our subconscious processes.  We can't just change our emotions by will alone; we can only address how to deal with emotions as they surface, and even then there's a lot of stuff the body will do automatically, before one is even consciously aware of the emotion. 

How to proceed, then, depends on self-conception and lived experience, including feedback from our subconscious processes.  And that's always going to differ from person to person.  Each of us can only really know what "works" through trial and error, not to mention a lot of self-reflection.  I know women who rue their public transitions, and those who rued non-disclosure; I know people happy on both paths; I know people who changed their minds about this, in both directions.  I suspect one's emotional response to various kinds of gendering depends on one's self-conception as well as one's sensitivity to other people, none of which we actually control.

What we can control, to some extent, is whether we put ourselves in whatever position it takes to maximize our happiness. 

Mind you, early on in transition the ritual of coming out was crucial to my happiness.  This had the effect of changing how people related to me, specifically with regard to the gendering (including a whole slew of social expectations) I'd receive.  It was effective, because at the time my embodiment wasn't particularly good at eliciting female gendering, hence why I'd been misgendered all my life.  Eventually, though, I got to the point where my embodiment was so good at eliciting female gendering that I soon learned that the "acceptance" of "indulged" gendering that I'd previously requested wasn't the same. 

The truth is that I'm not an island.  I respond, automatically and subconsciously, to other people.  I'm happiest when my inner truth is reflected by everyone else.  I'm lucky that I could actually come to know this, first hand. 

Quote from: Mariah on January 29, 2018, 12:46:45 PMI know from personal experience that this isn't true. We would like to think or feel that it is, however it isn't. I can certainly how one can b believe that is the magic cure to dysphoria but it isn't.

Michelle said that her gendered presentation will "relieve a certain amount of anxiety and dysphoria related to social non acceptance."  That sounds like she's trying to elicit female gendering from other people, and that being accepted as female relieves at least some of her dysphoria.

You, Mariah, may obviously have a different experience.  What triggers (or triggered) your dysphoria? 

Quote from: Sophia Sage on January 29, 2018, 06:41:50 AM
You do this to elicit female gendering.  Proper gendering alleviates your dysphoria.

This turns out not to be the case, and is  part of why I generally use "I" statements when dealing with experience. "You" statements are often judgmental or proscriptive.

Feminine presentation serves me both to elicit female gendering by others, and to affirm my internal femininity, through engaging in presentation and related rituals deemed feminine by this culture.

Being gendered correctly does relieve one aspect of my social dysphoria. Prior to gender confirmation surgery (GCS), certain aspects of this actually raised my social anxiety at times, particularly at points where I feared detection as a trans person.  Some social groups, in some environments, react violently to pre-op transsexual women. Gwen Arujio comes to mind as one example of this.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My point was to show that your statement was a broad generalization that didn't and doesn't apply to all. I agree that you could be right in her case that doing so could be helpful and may alleviate Michelle's dysphoria. Now in as far as my situation it was body dysphoria that was the issue. Surgery and hormones took care of that issue for me. Hormones allowed me to be able to see it in the mirror and added things like breasts. SRS took care of the one spot of huge dysphoria by removing that which was a huge issue and source of pain for me. Hugs
Mariah

Quote from: Sophia Sage on January 29, 2018, 02:00:46 PM
Michelle said that her gendered presentation will "relieve a certain amount of anxiety and dysphoria related to social non acceptance."  That sounds like she's trying to elicit female gendering from other people, and that being accepted as female relieves at least some of her dysphoria.

You, Mariah, may obviously have a different experience.  What triggers (or triggered) your dysphoria?

Quote from: Mariah on January 29, 2018, 02:13:19 PM
My point was to show that your statement was a broad generalization that didn't and doesn't apply to all. I agree that you could be right in her case that doing so could be helpful and may alleviate Michelle's dysphoria. Now in as far as my situation it was body dysphoria that was the issue. Surgery and hormones took care of that issue for me. Hormones allowed me to be able to see it in the mirror and added things like breasts. SRS took care of the one spot of huge dysphoria by removing that which was a huge issue and source of pain for me.

Do you ask for female pronouns? 

How have you responded to being misgendered by other people?  How often, and in what situations, does misgendering still occur?

I am disturbed that comments are becoming judgemental and personal.

While discussion is healthy, such posts are not.

I'm locking for now.