I'm curious how much evidence you had to provide to show that you're truly living full-time, and who was requesting it, and when it needed to be done - say, a full year before surgery? Does half out (social but not work) count? I'm kind of in that boat, out to my friends and family but not at work, and the idea is still a titch unnerving, as these people won't see it coming at all. But it's them or me! I have the law and our company policy on my side, too.
As an aside I've read about people who've faked the whole thing, wishing to have surgery/hormones but to keep presenting as their gender assigned at birth for various reasons - personal, financial, because it's who they are, etc.
All I can share is my experience. I told the doctor, therapist, and psychologist that I didn't identify as a man or a woman but wanted feminization of my body.
"Here's your hormones, here's your surgery."
Nobody is faking anything by wanting to present the way they want to present. :-\
I don't think my endo even saw the letter my therapist wrote. The notes on my medical records only reference our conversation.
I for the most part reject the idea there is only one way someone can present their gender. With the exception that no matter what I wear or how I act, I'm always representing my own. Even if it is not static.
Real life experience.... Its not as if I am imaginary.
Right?
Sent from my P00A using Tapatalk
I'm pretty sure it's all just an honor system where care providers just go by whatever you tell them.
There are no transgender police checking up on us to make sure we are dressing in gender appropriate (in your case women's clothes) all the time.
Also, FYI I'm pretty sure a legal name change starts the clock ticking on RLE.
I sure hope it's not name change that starts the clock. What does an MTF do if one's name is Pat, or Chris, or Leslie? Let's say one doesn't want to change it? Name might be one factor, but it shouldn't be the main factor.
I sure hope that the position is: Give the person the benefit of the doubt. Why on Earth would someone lie about being transgender and what their RLE might be? Sure there are crazy people who just want surgery. But isn't that what the therapist is for?
Perhaps it is because this is California, but each time that I have walked into the office of a health care professional, well dressed, "full" makeup, and I have told my story, somehow they have believed me and not asked for proof of RLE time...
Kate
Hi there Lucy
It's a question of checks and balances, both professional and personal. You can appreciate that RLE is fundamentally intended so that people can be sure of their intentions before committing to irreversible surgeries and other life-changing decisions. There are enough cases of self-harm and regret for healthcare professionals to propose and expect their patients to be certain via at least a year of RLE.
Of course it's totally possible to fake the situation, although I'd ask whether this is a good thing. Ultimately, you need to be clear about your targets.
Good luck!
Julia
I wasn't asked to prove anything, I had a diagnosis years before, a name change years before and hormones years before GCS, which is all strong circumstantial evidence but not exactly proof of my many years of RLE before I got GCS. So unless your insurance company or doctor is particularly thorough it seems that they will simply take your word for how long your RLE has been going on.
Fwiw the therapists who gave me my letters asked about my history but, didn't ask for any sort of verification either, after all aside from the letters I have no cause to see a mental h with professional I was quite happy and well adjusted aside from dysphoria. In my case there was certainly respect given to my words. In fact it seemed like most everything that was a hoop I had to jump through was to satisfy the insurance company.
I told my Psych when I started and he noted it at the time and when I said I wanted a surgery letter he said fine he would reference the date in the notes. I did not have to prove anything...nor would I have expected to as I would not having GCS unless I had experienced living as woman. I would want to take every step I knew to make sure that I was doing the best for me...making sure its what I wanted...where I live I was able to have a consult and make a booking all before getting any letters so that when my RLE was up my surgery date was not far away.
It really depends on who is asking. As Devlyn noted, some doctors don't care about the waiting requirements of the WPATH standards. Those who do care may have different standards for documentation. A therapist can refer to their own notes. Others may want something more substantial or official.
In my case, I am waiting for the Brits to approve my gender change, since, although I am Canadian now, I was born in the UK. They require two years of RLE. They won't accept my declaration or the Facebook posts that I saved. The earliest date they will accept as being documented is my name change. They will also ask me for supplementary documentation such as my name on utility bills.
For those who implement a RLE requirement, full-time does mean full-time, 24/7, in all situations. Being out to everyone except work is not generally considered to be full-time RLE.
Devlyn - you've only had an orchi, right? WPATH only requires 2 letters for those, no RLE like they do for GCS. My orchi's next month, btw. Take a hike, crown jewels!
Some want surgery without transitioning, I'd never use a term like crazy about this, it's as valid a life path as anything else. And would you believe Ernest Hemingway's son Gregory fell under this category: http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/GregoryHemingway.html
My therapists are basically taking my word for it, too. I'm wholly sincere about it all, though. I've read about how strict things are in other countries like the UK.
Someone here wrote about cooperating to a fault, almost, documenting every FB post.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
The RLE requirement is not totally inflexible, at least for some. Someone recently got a non-binary SRS, getting a vagina while keeping the penis. Others present male before and afterwards. Both have RLE. Some just skip the RLE entirely and socially transition after surgery.
Quote from: AnonyMs on September 06, 2018, 08:39:15 AM
Some just skip the RLE entirely and socially transition after surgery.
Wouldn't that be not following the WPATH guidelines? I thought most "reputable" GRS surgeons would follow the WPATH guidelines.
Interestingly, my insurance coverage specifically states their coverage is dependent on following WPATH.
Kate
Quote from: KatieP on September 06, 2018, 11:29:20 AM
Wouldn't that be not following the WPATH guidelines? I thought most "reputable" GRS surgeons would follow the WPATH guidelines.
Interestingly, my insurance coverage specifically states their coverage is dependent on following WPATH.
Kate
Yes, most insurers follow the WPATH guidelines. But those who have no insurance and pay their own way aren't bound by them. I think most surgeons do, too, but people will "shop around" to suit their own requirements.
I think the idea of insurance is avoid paying as far possible, so they would naturally take the strictest interpretation.
WPATH require a year of RLE, but what does that mean? If you intend to live non-binary or your original gender afterwards, then why would do do anything else beforehand? Also, plenty of doctors don't follow WPATH - look at all the gatekeeping that goes on, that's not a requirement of WPATH. Anyway its not a law, doctors can do whatever they want, and do. If you don't like what they want, and have the ability, find another one who you do like.
Informed consent IS within the WPATH Standards of Care guidelines.
https://www.susans.org/wiki/Standards_of_Care_for_the_Health_of_Transsexual,_Transgender,_and_Gender_Nonconforming_People#Informed_Consent
I've never met the Fashion Police but if I do I'll ask to see their badge.
I think RLE is driven by three things:
1. Minimizing or transferring liability in countries where lawsuits are expensive and time consuming.
2. Insurance companies that are in a business based on statistical math.
3. Medical providers hoping to avoid patients making an irreversible mistake.
If you sleep naked which gender is that. The other day I forgot to apply makeup. If a MtF belches loudly does the 12 month timer start over? Does a FtM fail RLE if their hair is too long for male military standards? And then I get into the part that really causes this to disintegrate in my mind... nobody has shown me an absolute definition of gender binary clothing. Clothing measurements are labeled and segregated based on gender but is not legally defined in any country.
When I was asked I said yes, I will have been living in my target gender role as myself 12 months prior to GCS. I wasn't asked for a precise definition of "target gender role" and I don't think any such thing truly exists because we are all sorts of people not machines. I changed my legal name 3 months before GCS and changed my presentation at work 3 weeks before leaving for surgery. At that point in time I had worn womens deodorant almost a decade, the brand is a Secret. It all averages out.
Kendra
Hi
Not exactly certain what the UK needs but I think its name change, proof via pay slips, etc etc that you are living and working as female.
Whatever I have 2 years before my first GIC appt (if Im lucky) and talking going FT with HR at work anyway (need to loose weight as previous posts somewhere said, but somewhat getting past that it seems in my head).
Anyone care to correct me (please, I'm always learning) on whats required in the UK?
I could look it up I know, but Im continuing my life without the over burdened Gender Clinics in the NHS. Note my Company Health insurance (I work for a Canadian Aviation and rail Company) and finances wont hold up for GCS or any other GD related support, esp after FFS which I want as I really cant live a few more years looking in the mirror (yes I do see me but 'hes' still there as well).
Whatever.
Still moving on
Luv n Hugz
Katie
:angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:
I'm actually very nervous about the idea of RLE given my job is amongst some of the most toxic masculinity on the planet, I want to be myself, but I also want to be a LIVE version of myself. I really think I need to pass before I can go full time.
Quote from: Katie Jade on September 06, 2018, 03:14:11 PM
Anyone care to correct me (please, I'm always learning) on whats required in the UK?
I don't know the UK requirements specifically for the 2-year RLE for surgery. But I do know the requirements for a gender change on one's birth certificate, since they are a major hold-up for me right now. I think it is likely that the documentation requirements are the same.
This is the actual requirement from the form T450, Application for a Gender Recognition Certificate:
QuoteAs part of your application, you must provide evidence to demonstrate that you have lived full
time in your acquired gender for at least two years (up to the date of your application).
The evidence can take the form of letters from official documents such as a passport or driving
licence, letters or documents from official, professional or business organisations or utility bills.
Please see accompanying Guidance Notes for more details. If the evidence is in a different name
to the one you have used on this form, you will need to show that it does relate to you.
Quote from: KathyLauren on September 06, 2018, 06:09:24 AM
For those who implement a RLE requirement, full-time does mean full-time, 24/7, in all situations. Being out to everyone except work is not generally considered to be full-time RLE.
My understanding is that RLE is about learning wether you want to live in your target gender or not? Aside from the obvious gatekeeping that is involved if you are already sure then why would you need to RLE...To prove to a cis person you really are Trans?? To prove that you can? If you wish to have GRS, are mentally sound and well informed without doing RLE then what does it really matter... I can see the value for me but to be honest I knew after about a week that I definitely was not going back to the way things were...
I can remember reading that in some early cases in the US (I thinK)you would be judged on your passability in order to decide what treatment you would getIE...If in the assesors opinion you were not a likly candidate to pass then GRS may be refused...hence the start this whole craziness about passing. I agree with Kendra, who decides and based on who's standards? ......
Quote from: Kendra on September 06, 2018, 02:51:30 PM
I've never met the Fashion Police but if I do I'll ask to see their badge.
I think RLE is driven by three things:
1. Minimizing or transferring liability in countries where lawsuits are expensive and time consuming.
2. Insurance companies that are in a business based on statistical math.
3. Medical providers hoping to avoid patients making an irreversible mistake.
If you sleep naked which gender is that. The other day I forgot to apply makeup. If a MtF belches loudly does the 12 month timer start over? Does a FtM fail RLE if their hair is too long for male military standards? And then I get into the part that really causes this to disintegrate in my mind... nobody has shown me an absolute definition of gender binary clothing. Clothing measurements are labeled and segregated based on gender but is not legally defined in any country.
When I was asked I said yes, I will have been living in my target gender role as myself 12 months prior to GCS. I wasn't asked for a precise definition of "target gender role" and I don't think any such thing truly exists because we are all sorts of people not machines. I changed my legal name 3 months before GCS and changed my presentation at work 3 weeks before leaving for surgery. At that point in time I had worn womens deodorant almost a decade, the brand is a Secret. It all averages out.
Kendra
I think this wins for "Most Entertaining Post" this week! ;D
Kate
Quote from: Sarah1979 on September 06, 2018, 05:31:21 PM
I really think I need to pass before I can go full time.
So, probably, you will/can pass way before you think you will be passing. YOU will see "him" long after no one else can.
I posted this story in the Hobbies section but it applies here:
Today I did my SD County Sheriff's required CCW Safety training. ...
And, I had what might be my most fun/pleasant/encouraging "trans encounter" I have ever had!
We started with introductions. In my intro, I described my work, and then said, "Being transgender, and transitioning rather late, I have had issues with jerks who do not like my existence." The instructor said, "Wait a minute. What did you say?" I said, "About being transgender or the jerks?" He said, "You're transgender? I had no idea..." He then added, "I was a bit confused with the name on the application, but after talking with you, I knew I was talking with a woman."
So, he thought the voice was female, and further thought the voice matched the person. Oh boy...As well, perhaps more personal, I met on Skype with a co-worker who knows I am Transgender, but has never seen me in girl mode, and I was using my "female" voice, which he had never heard. I showed him the avatar picture to the left, which I think is good, but far from "passing." My co-worker said had he walked by me in an airport, he would not have recognized me, and would have walked right by thinking I was a random woman. As well, on the phone, he said he could hear that it was my inflections and wording, but that my voice was completely female sounding to him. He also said he was not being nice in any way. It was just the way it was.
So, the point of those two stories is that "passing" likely happens earlier than you might think. So, maybe, not waiting until you are certain you pass 100% would actually work...
And, paraphrasing Moni, You are the best you no matter what other people think...
;D
Kate
I just think it very likely that if I try to be myself without passing,I will very likely be murdered, and to be honest, I don't really want to be a martyr to the cause.
I knew I was full time when I had to move out of the home to my own apartment. That marked the date and time precisely. I filed for the name change within a week, as I had heard of one surgeon who used the court name change order to determine the 'one year' point.
It was earlier than I had expected, and I 'knew' I wasn't passing, but I was full time anyway. It turns out that I was passing for casual encounters and even in short conversations, but I didn't learn that for months. Most folks are not actively looking for trans persons, and when they encounter us they just make their assumptions from the usual gender cues and roll with it. Give them enough correct cues and don't do anything to conflict with them, and we pass.
What I looked like then, maybe 5 months of HRT:(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180907/2114ee23d6f1a57af83ec4e10332dddd.jpg)
Quote from: Sarah1979 on September 06, 2018, 07:59:53 PM
I just think it very likely that if I try to be myself without passing,I will very likely be murdered, and to be honest, I don't really want to be a martyr to the cause.
I totally concur. There is nothing in this "cause" worth dying for. Including, taking your own life. (A permanent solution to a temporary problem...)
So, take all of this at your own speed. I mentioned that DIRECTION is completely up to you, well so is VELOCITY.
(Note too, after two or three encounters with jerks where I thought I might be hurt, I applied for a concealed weapons permit. That might not be your direction/choice. But you do not need to be a victim, nor do you need to live in fear...)
Kate
Quote from: Michelle_P on September 06, 2018, 08:00:40 PM
Give them enough correct cues and don't do anything to conflict with them, and we pass.
What I looked like then, maybe 5 months of HRT:
Ummm, Michelle, I don't know if you are such a great example. ;D While you certainly look "better" today, more delicate and pretty, you did NOT look bad or masculine back then. And even back then, what great hair you had!!! I would kill a puppy to have your hair from back then... :o
Kate
Quote from: KatieP on September 06, 2018, 08:12:40 PM
I totally concur. There is nothing in this "cause" worth dying for. Including, taking your own life. (A permanent solution to a temporary problem...)
So, take all of this at your own speed. I mentioned that DIRECTION is completely up to you, well so is VELOCITY.
(Note too, after two or three encounters with jerks where I thought I might be hurt, I applied for a concealed weapons permit. That might not be your direction/choice. But you do not need to be a victim, nor do you need to live in fear...)
Kate
I actually already have a CCW permit, but it's not valid everywhere I go on a daily basis. In addition, a lot of the places I go specifically forbid carrying and are private property.
Quote from: KatieP on September 06, 2018, 08:16:52 PM
And even back then, what great hair you had!!! I would kill a puppy to have your hair from back then...
Don't hurt the puppy!
That's a Raquel Welch "Crowd Pleaser" in pale golden/honey RL14/88. It's badly overconditioned and humidity-limp in that picture. I have the same hair in my current avatar.
Quote from: Sarah1979 on September 06, 2018, 08:21:51 PM
I actually already have a CCW permit, but it's not valid everywhere I go on a daily basis. In addition, a lot of the places I go specifically forbid carrying and are private property.
Go over to the Hobbies --> Guns section for a list of fun gun tropes, but the two that seem to apply here are:
-- It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6
-- Concealed is concealed...
You have to do what you have to do...
Kate
Quote from: KatieP on September 06, 2018, 07:51:53 PM
So, probably, you will/can pass way before you think you will be passing. YOU will see "him" long after no one else can.
I posted this story in the Hobbies section but it applies here:
Today I did my SD County Sheriff's required CCW Safety training. ...
And, I had what might be my most fun/pleasant/encouraging "trans encounter" I have ever had!
We started with introductions. In my intro, I described my work, and then said, "Being transgender, and transitioning rather late, I have had issues with jerks who do not like my existence." The instructor said, "Wait a minute. What did you say?" I said, "About being transgender or the jerks?" He said, "You're transgender? I had no idea..." He then added, "I was a bit confused with the name on the application, but after talking with you, I knew I was talking with a woman."
So, he thought the voice was female, and further thought the voice matched the person. Oh boy...
As well, perhaps more personal, I met on Skype with a co-worker who knows I am Transgender, but has never seen me in girl mode, and I was using my "female" voice, which he had never heard. I showed him the avatar picture to the left, which I think is good, but far from "passing." My co-worker said had he walked by me in an airport, he would not have recognized me, and would have walked right by thinking I was a random woman. As well, on the phone, he said he could hear that it was my inflections and wording, but that my voice was completely female sounding to him. He also said he was not being nice in any way. It was just the way it was.
So, the point of those two stories is that "passing" likely happens earlier than you might think. So, maybe, not waiting until you are certain you pass 100% would actually work...
And, paraphrasing Moni, You are the best you no matter what other people think...
;D
Kate
I also was thinking about this earlier today, during my period of DIY HRT, right at the end, I remember being able to see myself under HIS face, so I might be able to see myself objectively, at least I hope so.
Are you in long haul trucking, Sarah? That's a pretty butch profession where you cross state lines a lot, invalidating your CCW license as you go along. Here's someone who drives truck and has transitioned: The Heroines of My Life: Interview with Gerri Cannon (http://theheroines.blogspot.com/2014/06/interview-with-gerri-cannon.html)
Gender clinics used to have really ridiculous standards, which often said a lot about where they were coming from, one description was that your role models should be either Marilyn Monroe or John Wayne! You know, just slather it on as thick as possible. Once people were through they'd go right back to being whoever they felt like, of course. I don't think gatekeepers anywhere are still priggish in this way.
What Sarah touched on about dangerous situations used to apply most everywhere, too - people had absolutely no contact or experience with TSs and you were expected to go right into stealth, being clocked meant your career would be over, and possibly your life, too. Whereas now, if you happen to be in the right part of the world, you just can go through life having to deal with bigots from time to time.
Quote from: Lucy Ross on September 06, 2018, 11:43:04 PM
Are you in long haul trucking, Sarah? That's a pretty butch profession where you cross state lines a lot, invalidating your CCW license as you go along. Here's someone who drives truck and has transitioned: The Heroines of My Life: Interview with Gerri Cannon (http://theheroines.blogspot.com/2014/06/interview-with-gerri-cannon.html)
Gender clinics used to have really ridiculous standards, which often said a lot about where they were coming from, one description was that your role models should be either Marilyn Monroe or John Wayne! You know, just slather it on as thick as possible. Once people were through they'd go right back to being whoever they felt like, of course. I don't think gatekeepers anywhere are still priggish in this way.
What Sarah touched on about dangerous situations used to apply most everywhere, too - people had absolutely no contact or experience with TSs and you were expected to go right into stealth, being clocked meant your career would be over, and possibly your life, too. Whereas now, if you happen to be in the right part of the world, you just can go through life having to deal with bigots from time to time.
Yes I am,I like driving. My therapist doesn't have a problem with it apart from being able to keep my appointments(he's an online therapist), interestingly enough, he's the one that had to cancel this week's appointment. My company's supposed to be very inclusive about trans drivers, according to slate.comn there's at least one other MTF driver working for them. My main concerns are about the potential bigotry from other drivers and keeping a electrolysis schedule.
There's a trans truck driver on YouTube, TGlife4Jessica.
Quote from: AnonyMs on September 07, 2018, 04:16:58 AM
There's a trans truck driver on YouTube, TGlife4Jessica.
I hadn't heard of her, but then again, I've been so focused on getting to the point of restarting my transition, I can barely see my hand in front of my face lol.
As well, a fairly public Trans Truck Driver is Kira Wertz...
https://medium.com/@kirawertz and https://medium.com/the-transition-transmission
Kate