Hi, folks. Me again.
After reading some of the threads here recently, regarding indicators in people's pasts which led to a sort of epiphany... a question has been gnawing at me to which I would appreciate some insight, and people's views.
I don't know how easy this will be to answer, though, since it's largely hypothetical. Nevertheless:
Suppose on the day you found yourself, you woke up with amnesia. Your life up to that point was a total blank. You had no memory of your childhood, adolescence... you knew absolutely nothing of who you were while growing up. No memory of what you did or didn't do up to that point... do you think you would you still feel the same way you did when you decided that you are the way you perceive yourself to be?
If so, what is it about you from that point onwards which makes you feel that way?
If not, why not?
Past aside, what is it now which drives you, which affirms you are who you are?
This took me a little while to ponder before answering, thank you for asking it first off because I think it allows us all to reflect on ourselves in a slightly different way.
For me it wasn't an epiphany so much as a slow acceptance of myself over a period of time. I think if I were to wake up with amnesia and without any recollection of my past or who I am exactly, then I think I would look to those around me for guidance about "who" I am exactly and why. I think it would take some time as well for me to fully grasp the concept of who I am individually as well, but I think it would take less time this time around to accept it because somewhere in my subconscious it would still be there(I assume).
I look at this question as one I would have to answer at three different times to get the full answer though; at pre-transition, during transition, and far past the transition stage because I think the effect of amnesia would cause a different insight for each of these times. For example, as living as a male full time and if no one knew I was planning on transitioning, then having amnesia would be a major setback in my opinion for transition because there wouldn't be that super obvious indicator of transition. Eventually those feelings would still redevelop and it would cause turmoil and depression, but I believe it would take some time, sort of like growing up did initially. Versus post transition, you would wake up as your ideal gender and although you may not remember your childhood or your initial sex it wouldn't matter because you would be happy.
So I'm not sure if this reflection is what you were looking for at all, but that was my take on the question at least. I would love to read others thoughts on it too.
Emma
I wasn't really looking for anything specifically, hon. Just interested to see what people think.
Thank you very much for such a complete answer. I was curious because often times I read about how several incidents in a person's past lead them to the realisation of who they are. And were those incidents unable to be drawn on, how, if at all, would that change the feelings someone has about themselves. I guess really what I'm asking is how much of how we feel is anchored in the past, and how much on how we feel in the present?
Okay, I understand what you are asking, by using the amnesia scenario we can compare losing the past information we have about ourselves and remaining onto the present information about ourselves and using only to determine how we would view ourselves. I find that really hard to reflect about because I've used past information about myself to help motivate my transition; like praying to God when I was very little to wake up a girl on several occasions. Then again, if I didn't have my past, I wouldn't have the memories of all those years as a male and therefore it wouldn't be so hard to believe that I am truly a female. I wouldn't have all those failed romantic relationships as a male to look on and ultimately I'm not sure if not having that information would push me faster to transition or deter it all together. I have several key people in my life that encouraged me to transition and helped me ultimately get to where I am now, and what if that past was taken away as well? It's really fascinating to think how different we could be if we didn't have our past at all. I know this isn't really an answer, but there are some of questions that came to mind concerning how I would start answering that hypothetical situation at least.
Hrm... I am going to use my imagination here to get to the core of me and what I feel about myself. I hope you don't mind if I make some assumptions about the situation in order to reveal the heart of me. :)
I imagine, in this scenario, that I am alone with my feelings and my thoughts, without social pressures. I would awaken largely hairless (I shave pretty much everywhere, meticulously) and that might puzzle me for a bit, but I think I would determine, based on physical evidence, that I was in a male body. The reason I say it that way is because I've always felt that what makes me "me" is very separate from the body that contains me. I think this would be disappointing to me, but that absent my life's experience with doubt and confusion and socially imposed gender restrictions that I would be happier about this than I am now.
I would be confused, and would likely start to search for clues about who or what I was before suddenly appearing, knowing that I couldn't have just sprung into life as a grown adult.
I hope that I would laugh more and appreciate the beauty of life around me without the filters that jade my grownup vision. I believe I would dance and sing, celebrating life and everything around me. I might yearn to have different parts, but I believe I would be a lot happier than I am now, since I would have no memory of the painful exclusion and hiding that marks the vast majority of my life to date.
I imagine that, on being discovered, it would appear to my discoverers that I was a joyful, loving, enthusiastic person displaying the unfettered freedom of emotional expression of a woman in a rather lanky male body.
Interesting timing Sephirah!
I was asked yesterday to present at a retirement symposium for my long term mentor and a Scientist of great note in Australia. We have known each other for >30 years, and in doing this I realise that I will have to revisit a past that I have extinguished, and face people I never expected to face again. Including fellow students etc from the past.
So how does that fit into your reflection? In thinking of what I shall talk about, I became very aware that my life started a few years ago when Cindy faced her life and went public. With each passing month I struggle to recall who and what Peter was and how he fitted into life and society. Yes I have the documented proof that he lived, worked, published etc. But my grasp of his reality and his Id are increasingly poor.
I find my life in anchored in my every day reality, my nature has changed from his and my work interest and intensity -and passion, have changed.
I feel very little link to him, and I have noticed that I am increasingly unable to draw on his life to live mine. I was asked by a colleague if I was still doing a few (specific) interests that my previous self enjoyed, and I realised that I did not. Even my taste in literature, Art and food has changed.
Do I draw on his experience? I was suddenly going to say yes; but I hesitate. I was going to say that I still draw upon his ability to talk in public, to address conferences and lecture to large numbers of students; an experience and 'skill' that many people find daunting.
But I realised that even those techniques have changed. I'm far more assertive, confident and motivated in public speaking and activity than he ever was.
So if I understand your epiphany; no I am not the same and no I do not draw upon his past and his life. However, I'm increasingly puzzled by questions that are now arising in where my life has been drawn from.
It is almost a case of when you are asleep are your dreams the real you, if so who are you when you awake?
Thank you for giving me something to ponder for the weekend!!!
Hugs
Cindy
Thank you all for your replies. You have given me a lot to think about, too.
I wasn't sure where I was going with this, but I think I have a somewhat clearer idea now. Emma, you pretty much summed up a lot that was running through my mind, about how people use events of the past as an indicator of what the future needs to be.
Robin, thank you for your thoughtful insight. You touched upon what I think the core of this thread was about. Namely how one would feel about themselves now, and if that would be any different to how one feels about themselves with all the past experiences in tow.
Cindy... somehow you always manage to sum everything up beautifully in a single sentence.
Quote from: Cindy on October 18, 2013, 05:45:35 PM
It is almost a case of when you are asleep are your dreams the real you, if so who are you when you awake?
This is the crux of it. It's really very interesting, and beautiful to see how you're blossoming now, and feel distanced from the life you had. The person who you feel more and more distanced from. I wonder if that's because you allowed yourself to live unconstrained from the past, and sought new experiences by which to define yourself, and your life.
This is really what I wonder, perhaps more than anything. Often times I read of people who say "I am who I am because I knew that this, and that, and the other about my former life was wrong. Because I couldn't deal with having to live as something I'm not." I wonder if those past experiences have shaped or defined the individual, and to what degree.
And by the same token, I wonder how much of one's life is reactive - a response to things that happen to us. And how much of it is proactive - a desire to
make things happen to us.
If the ability to search the past to work out what wasn't right... if that were unavailable... what would people see in their own lives as they are now, and in the future, which would make them say "I am who I am because I know that this, that and the other in my life now is
right."?
Are we, today, just the sum total of our experiences?
Products of our environment?
Or perhaps shaped by our genetic legacy?
I'd like to think that I am more than the effect caused by continued, various stimuli. I'd like to think I have some control of events and that I can make the changes I seek. That suggests free will and the ability alter what must otherwise be fate.
The past does not matter. The slate gets wiped clean every day and I am reborn.
I was wondering a similar thing today except in regards to Alzheimer's - as it gets worse the memory crumbles away to early childhood. I had been wondering if there were any trans people who had gone through transition and SRS and then some years later fallen prey to this horrible condition. Would it conflict with their memory of their youthful physical body or would it give them some degree of relief? (Yes, I think too much!)
Sephirah,
As I hope you know, I love you deeply for many reasons, but one is the ability you have to make people (me) think. You are truly a mirror to the soul. It comes out in your posts.
What are we?
Are we the sum of our experiences, or do our experiences create us without the sum of the past?
For me Peter was my shield, he protected me and looked after me in so many ways. Is he .. was he me and did I grow from him, or was I the creation that used a figment to protect me from the world?
Recently I read the Book of Enoch a religious text that describes the fall of the Angels. It is ancient and not included in the Bible, it is referenced in the Torah. But I think too 'close to the bone' for modern religious teaching.
In synopsis, the Angels who were cast out from Heaven took up Human form, and enjoyed Human experience - sex with woman seemed to be rather dominant for some reason :o ::). But they then walk the Earth, hiding their identity behind that of Human form, with the terrible misfortune to be immortal and to have known God.
But they kept their identity and their understanding of that identity.
This suggest that the Ancients also understood the concept that people have always had an understanding that presentation and reality in (of?) presentation are fundamentally different.
Are we then so different? Or are we just humans who have to face our reality? Of course most people do not need to face those thoughts, it is only those who face the dichotomy of a previous life that need to examine the reasons why.
Yes I am proactive in living my life, but why do I do so?
Yes Cindy's life is of overwhelming importance to me, Peter's life means nothing. Is this survival or growth?
I don't know, and thank you for making me think of it.
Cindy
Quote from: Sephirah on October 18, 2013, 03:33:13 PMSuppose on the day you found yourself, you woke up with amnesia. Your life up to that point was a total blank. You had no memory of your childhood, adolescence... you knew absolutely nothing of who you were while growing up. No memory of what you did or didn't do up to that point... do you think you would you still feel the same way you did when you decided that you are the way you perceive yourself to be?
That scenario isn't far off of what actually happened!
I had identified as a girl from 'the beginning' and it took reality 8 years to put any serious cracks in that identity. Even then it wasn't broken but it was severely shaken through my teens as I struggled to find (medical) help to be fully ME. In 1974, at the age of 24, SRS suddenly became available and it was a mad rush to get my ducks in a row. I got thrown out of my parents house and banished from my home town, moved to a new city, and went off for SRS. In a matter of a few weeks everything past was left behind and I was standing at the threshold of an entirely new life, a blank slate.
I was 24 and
knew that I knew NOTHING about life as a woman and didn't even know who I was. Even my time en femme in my teens didn't prepare me for that moment. All I knew was that the battle was over, the crap I had lived with my whole life was gone, and I was free to discover the world and myself in the process - I had been liberated from Auschwitz! I had always felt I was a girl and now I WAS ONE.
It felt strange to have no past and a future as yet unwritten but it was the first time in my memory that I felt peace and that I felt complete.
[It didn't take long before I began discovering who I was and I was continually amazed at how different I was that I used to think I was. I was pretty much polar opposite to who I had been before and took to my new life like a duck to water. I was more than I ever thought I could be! Even now, almost 40 years later I simply can't imagine how I ever had any doubt. ;D When I look back on my childhood and my teens from this place in my life I can clearly see that I dealt with that life (pre-SRS) very much as a young girl in a very tough and confusing situation. It was always there, just very much "bent, folded, spindled, and mutilated"! LOL!! ]
Quote from: Sephirah on October 18, 2013, 03:33:13 PM
Hi, folks. Me again.
After reading some of the threads here recently, regarding indicators in people's pasts which led to a sort of epiphany... a question has been gnawing at me to which I would appreciate some insight, and people's views.
I don't know how easy this will be to answer, though, since it's largely hypothetical. Nevertheless:
Suppose on the day you found yourself, you woke up with amnesia. Your life up to that point was a total blank. You had no memory of your childhood, adolescence... you knew absolutely nothing of who you were while growing up. No memory of what you did or didn't do up to that point... do you think you would you still feel the same way you did when you decided that you are the way you perceive yourself to be?
If so, what is it about you from that point onwards which makes you feel that way?
If not, why not?
Past aside, what is it now which drives you, which affirms you are who you are?
I can't answer this. My past experiences define who I am, yet I also have always have had an internal sense of self that was independent of external forces. How I would develop without my past is impossible for me to know. Did my jealousy of other girls stem from being raised and socialized by two sisters? Did my playing dress up and wearing make up early in life with my sister cause me to desire something else than other "little boys"? Did having exclusively female friends in kindergarten create a secret gender association in my head? Did my genital defect cause me to further separate from a male identity? All these things are possible and may have contributed. I can't erase the past nor can I discount the important role it played in my life. But, there was always an innate feeling that I can't describe which made me feel this way. I've always knew what I wanted, but didn't know it was possible to get there. How much of that was internal or biological is impossible to guess. I suppose the is probably both a nature and nurture aspect to my overall identity. At the end of the day, I am who I am. There is no way to undue me or the past and the only way to proceed is moving forward.
I'm curious Seph, what about you? I want to learn about the elusive inspiring mod. :)
I can't imagine who I would be without my experiences. When I think of little decisions I made that changed the course of my life in huge ways, I know I would have turned out to be a vastly different person had any one of a million things have swayed in a different direction.
And if I had been born into a non-accepting household and taught that certain thoughts were sinful, would I have rejected my own transgender and ended killing myself? Entirely possible.
Three weeks ago I was at a dinner party. The host put mild banana peppers on the salad. They were so delicious that I've been putting mild banana peppers on just about everything since then. My daily sandwiches are now far more enjoyable. I almost didn't go to that party.
Just one minor example.
Interesting question, and indeed answers.
If I may interlope and digress for a moment, in one way of course I can't answer this, because I'm so far down the track that if I woke up with amnesia all I'd see was a mature woman who has been unambiguously a woman for almost all of her adult life and thus there is no conflict.
However – going back to early life when my genitalia were different, it was simply the fact that my genitalia never felt physically "right" to me. I can't exactly describe it, because it wasn't pain, and indeed though there was some very minor malformation, it wasn't really that extensive or significant. I was only partially androgen insensitive, so it wasn't gross deformation either.
I'm not that bothered about all the gender stuff, I don't do makeup or all the girly frippery. However I'm actually quite feminine in my habits and personality. I've been a mother, and as my fellow students would tell you, I'm often the sympathetic ear, with the hot mug of homemade soup to comfort the weary. I'm also happy with a lot of the masculine attributes that I have, like slightly larger frame size, and more powerful voice, and I have always used them to good advantage. I admit that it may have helped a little that none of my attributes was ever really outside of the potential female range so I never had issues with being misgendered, but in the end it still boils down to the simple fact that I just didn't feel right having a penis. There was nothing else wrong.
Bloody good job I was never subjected to your fabled standards of care tests because how could I have meaningfully "transitioned" or done an RLE, when I was already the person I am, in pretty much all but my genitals?
Point is, from the age of five I was allowed to I grow up as me – and so there wasn't any real dissonance, beyond the genital one, and that was the only thing I have sought to correct. Yes I take HRT, and yes I had genital surgery around 30 years ago. The rest of me was, and remains, very much business as usual.
Now I have to say that I am fascinated by Trans people because I kind of feel that I came so close to being one, but somehow dodged the bullet, so that I can't ever fully comprehend what it feels like.
When I qualify as a doctor I wont be treating gender patients because I don't trust myself to be sufficiently objective, but I am fascinated by the more general idea that in some way important aspects of our identity may be hardwired into our brains, before anything happens to us, as indeed mine seemed to be.
... and now I must return to my study of Anatomy and enervation - which penning this reply has proved an enjoyable diversion from.
I shall read your further answers, from my seat in at the edge of the field, with fascination, and thank you for sharing.
Quote from: Sephirah on October 18, 2013, 03:33:13 PM
do you think you would you still feel the same way you did when you decided that you are the way you perceive yourself to be?
Do you mean gender-wise? If I woke up now with no memory, I would probably why the hell I was a guy with a
<certain genital arrangement>. But I would probably wonder if was born that way and had some kind of intersexed condition or if I heard about ftm transsexuals, I may wonder if I was one of them.
That's a tough one for me to answer, because it was a series of former events and experiences that brought me to the place I am at now. So more then likely if I awoke from a coma with no memory I would take stock of myself and then be compelled to continue on in the direction that I have been headed as there is no possibility of returning to whatever my former self was just based on physiology alone. I'd probably continue to be the same two people that I currently am with the femme side taking precedence, probably more so than before.
Quote from: Sephirah on October 18, 2013, 03:33:13 PMSuppose on the day you found yourself, you woke up with amnesia. Your life up to that point was a total blank. [...] do you think you would you still feel the same way you did when you decided that you are the way you perceive yourself to be?
I wouldn't say I had an "epiphany", per se. It was more long and drawn out process. A bit hard to explain.
As long as I've been alive, I've felt as I do now. The collections of memories and the constant feeling of dysphoria throughout my life eventually brought me to the realization
If I lost my memory when I was finally sure of who I was, it would be a setback. That doesn't mean I won't come to the realization again, but I would have to go through that long process of finding myself all over again. And I probably would, because it's kind of a hard thing to ignore, at least for me it is.
It's kind of like, if we destroyed all scientific knowledge regarding the atom. Even though all memory of it
now is lost, we're bound to discover it again in the future. It would just be a setback and would take time to recover from.
If you're asking me if I would still know for sure after my amnesia, then the answer is no. Like I said, it would be a setback. But I would probably come to the realization much quicker, after checking my search history and my diary...
If I had no memories of anything... about myself OR the world I live in, then it would probably take me a long time to come to realization that I was TG again. Probably not 25 years, but more than a few years I'm sure.
If I just had to memories of me, but wake up with my current understanding of how the world works, how gender and bodies are conceived by society, then it might not take me so long. Maybe a few months to remember how my body feels. That's assuming that I continued my medication regimen upon waking-- having periods would remind me even faster. Knowing what sex is and partaking in it would remind me faster too.
I would essentially have to re-absorb all of the images, feelings, and themes that have built up what I've constructed as my gender, and what that means in terms of my body. I might have a very diffuse, inexplicable feeling of something being off, but I wouldn't know what it was until I had a sufficient library of external symbols and representations to form a point of reference. Without that, my discontent is pretty formless. It would be like asking a FtM the question of whether they would want a penis if they'd never seen or heard of one in their life before, let alone never seen or heard of a "man" before. I'm sure the dysphoria would still be there, but it would be a lot harder, if not impossible, to completely pin down.
I thin it would end up the same, knowing who I am but then getting confused as to why other people didn't know me.
Quote from: Sephirah on October 18, 2013, 03:33:13 PM
Hi, folks. Me again.
After reading some of the threads here recently, regarding indicators in people's pasts which led to a sort of epiphany... a question has been gnawing at me to which I would appreciate some insight, and people's views.
I don't know how easy this will be to answer, though, since it's largely hypothetical. Nevertheless:
Suppose on the day you found yourself, you woke up with amnesia. Your life up to that point was a total blank. You had no memory of your childhood, adolescence... you knew absolutely nothing of who you were while growing up. No memory of what you did or didn't do up to that point... do you think you would you still feel the same way you did when you decided that you are the way you perceive yourself to be?
If so, what is it about you from that point onwards which makes you feel that way?
If not, why not?
Past aside, what is it now which drives you, which affirms you are who you are?
Speaking from my point of view.I wont suggest that who i am can be changed by the mere fact that my memories were erased.Because of what i know about myself,who i am and also knowing that i simply grew up in the pits of hell *so to speak*,I would say that my past and memories do not drive me or have any effect on that drive (aka drive to continue/proceed/make it to the end of the road).If past aside,what drives me is a feeling of wholeness and existence.A better way to put it is like giving birth and during,you suffer alot of pain,losing most of your strength-just to see a human being coming to existence.I can either stop pushing,and allow the pain to grow more and more,constantly drained to near collapse or,i can see it through.And i have every intention of seeing it through and i know that once i do,the old will pass away with peace and strength and the new,will stand tall and complete.I honestly do not believe that my existence is based on the way i *see myself* but the way *i am* myself.As if one knows they are human,i also know who i am and it just took me 30 years to be so.So i know that the outcome would be the same.I guess what i mean is,is that-if we could all rewind time and go back to our birth,we may be born with a different skin tone *depending on our bloodlines.aka giving dna a rejiggle* but who we are will not change,no matter how many times we rewind.And with that,i dont believe anything would turn out differently (speaking of myself of course) I take the things i have went through in my life as learning and (as a fave saying of mine) part of the *refining process* like hot metal being melted down,hammered and shaped.But in the end,coming out sharp,beautiful and deadly.And even if i could change all the things i know now,the things i have went through and all the pain i have dealt with.I would NEVER do it.Thats why i believe things would turn out the same.
I would have some serious questions about how it is that I have boobs and a penis.
Quote from: Sephirah on October 18, 2013, 03:33:13 PM
If so, what is it about you from that point onwards which makes you feel that way?
If not, why not?
Past aside, what is it now which drives you, which affirms you are who you are?
Assuming my fundamental personality were the same, I might, for a time believe my new life experience typical . However it wouldn't take long before the same triggers that once alerted me to my true self appeared again seeing as they are a constant in my current life.
Wow. I certainly wasn't expecting so many in depth replies to this. Thank you all so much.
I don't really have anything meaningful to comment on what you've all said. Save for the fact that it never ceases to fascinate me the way people live their lives and what gives those lives meaning. It serves only to illustrate the wonderful diversity of human existence and how people find that meaning in different ways. Again, thank you for answering my stumbling attempts to ask the question.
One thing I will say, however, is that I'm genuinely interested in what it is about the experiences you had which you feel make you who you are.
I hesitated to do this but:
Quote from: learningtolive on October 19, 2013, 07:39:47 AM
I'm curious Seph, what about you? I want to learn about the elusive inspiring mod. :)
I wasn't sure I was going to answer this. But I have thought about it a lot since posting this. So I will attempt to explain how I feel.
One time I did have amnesia. Briefly. A little while ago while I was away from the site for personal reasons. I didn't remember much of anything, for a time. But that singular experience showed me that in my case, it made no difference whatsoever as to who I am, how I saw myself, and why I feel the way I do. That being said, I am really not sure I can explain why. Nevertheless, I shall try. :)
For vast swathes of my life I struggle with what can only be described as a dissociation from myself. I'm not entirely sure how much, of any of it, is to do with gender. It's something I have got used to almost, ever since I was a child. An overwhelming feeling of being "outside" oneself. Or maybe "inside" oneself would be more accurate. Of being an observer. It's a very... disconcerting feeling, when it happens. Like watching life through a screen. In this case, my eyes. For 90% of the time, I see things with a detachment. Things that happen to me... well... they feel like they're happening to someone else, and I'm watching from within, as it were. I don't really know how else to describe it. If you've seen the movie
Men In Black, and can remember the scene with the little alien inside that guy's head, sort of piloting him... that is how it feels, sometimes. Like driving a person, almost.
A lot of my gender issues aren't social. At least I don't feel they are. They're more... internal and physical. For me it's more just about not being right in my own skin. Regardless of how people treat me. Or how I'd like to be seen. That very often pales into insignificance when you find yourself waking most of the time, expecting to be someone else, or a very heavy modification of yourself, and finding out you're not. The physical dysphoria is sickening, at times. I honestly don't think I would care if people misgendered me, as long as I felt right within myself. And for pretty much most of my life, that has not been the case. I have phantom limb sensations occasionally... most commonly after meditating, or a particularly vivid dream. Often a very tactile hypnogogic state of being actually myself, followed by the jarring, almost painful realisation when that wears off. I think a lot of that stems from the time spent living in my own head. Something, I suppose, I turned to as a coping mechanism during very early life to escape from the feelings of confusion and longing that I found myself having.
As a result of that, I think, I developed a very strong self identity. Something that may have to do with spending a lot of time with myself. Through meditation, dreams, learning about how I see myself in my mind's eye. And a lot of this had no interaction from outside elements at all. I don't really know what it was. And sometimes, it's a case of not knowing which came first, the dysphoria or the self image. Whether one created the other, and vice versa. But the end result, for me, is that my expression of myself is a very... self-contained thing.
I'm not going to say that experiences in my life haven't left their mark. No doubt they have. They have led to me being a more cautious, thoughtful, often scared... yet emotionally aware person overall. At least I think so. I don't really know, lol. I guess others are best placed to make that call. But I do see a fundamental difference between how I am, and who I am. I don't think they're the same thing. I think that maybe things that have happened to... hmm... I hesitate to say "me", because sometimes that isn't what it feels like at all. But you know what I mean. For the sake of argument, let's say the things that have happened to me... may have gone some way to shaping what kind of woman I am. But my feeling is that they had very little effect on the fact that I am a woman in the first place. That, for me is an all-pervading, whole body and mind sensation. And I guess some of what prompted this thread is that when I couldn't remember very much of what had happened in my past, this feeling of being who I am, the person I see in my mind's eye, the dysphoric feelings of a body which didn't quite fit... that never went away. Never lessened in strength, or discomfort in knowing the outside didn't match. And I don't think, in my case, it has very much to do with my past experiences in life. I think perhaps it's based more on experiencing how I feel when I am free from the restrictions of... hmm... of physical existence? When I'm afforded opportunities to exist as the truest example of who I am. Almost in a vacuum, perhaps. I'm not sure.
I don't think I did a good job of explaining any of that. The truth is, it's somewhat complicated for me to even understand myself.
"The truth is, it's somewhat complicated for me to even understand myself."
We're all on the same page to one degree or another, so you're not alone hon!
Quote from: Sephirah on October 20, 2013, 10:03:53 AM
Wow. I certainly wasn't expecting so many in depth replies to this. Thank you all so much.
I don't really have anything meaningful to comment on what you've all said. Save for the fact that it never ceases to fascinate me the way people live their lives and what gives those lives meaning. It serves only to illustrate the wonderful diversity of human existence and how people find that meaning in different ways. Again, thank you for answering my stumbling attempts to ask the question.
One thing I will say, however, is that I'm genuinely interested in what it is about the experiences you had which you feel make you who you are.
I hesitated to do this but:
I wasn't sure I was going to answer this. But I have thought about it a lot since posting this. So I will attempt to explain how I feel.
One time I did have amnesia. Briefly. A little while ago while I was away from the site for personal reasons. I didn't remember much of anything, for a time. But that singular experience showed me that in my case, it made no difference whatsoever as to who I am, how I saw myself, and why I feel the way I do. That being said, I am really not sure I can explain why. Nevertheless, I shall try. :)
For vast swathes of my life I struggle with what can only be described as a dissociation from myself. I'm not entirely sure how much, of any of it, is to do with gender. It's something I have got used to almost, ever since I was a child. An overwhelming feeling of being "outside" oneself. Or maybe "inside" oneself would be more accurate. Of being an observer. It's a very... disconcerting feeling, when it happens. Like watching life through a screen. In this case, my eyes. For 90% of the time, I see things with a detachment. Things that happen to me... well... they feel like they're happening to someone else, and I'm watching from within, as it were. I don't really know how else to describe it. If you've seen the movie Men In Black, and can remember the scene with the little alien inside that guy's head, sort of piloting him... that is how it feels, sometimes. Like driving a person, almost.
A lot of my gender issues aren't social. At least I don't feel they are. They're more... internal and physical. For me it's more just about not being right in my own skin. Regardless of how people treat me. Or how I'd like to be seen. That very often pales into insignificance when you find yourself waking most of the time, expecting to be someone else, or a very heavy modification of yourself, and finding out you're not. The physical dysphoria is sickening, at times. I honestly don't think I would care if people misgendered me, as long as I felt right within myself. And for pretty much most of my life, that has not been the case. I have phantom limb sensations occasionally... most commonly after meditating, or a particularly vivid dream. Often a very tactile hypnogogic state of being actually myself, followed by the jarring, almost painful realisation when that wears off. I think a lot of that stems from the time spent living in my own head. Something, I suppose, I turned to as a coping mechanism during very early life to escape from the feelings of confusion and longing that I found myself having.
As a result of that, I think, I developed a very strong self identity. Something that may have to do with spending a lot of time with myself. Through meditation, dreams, learning about how I see myself in my mind's eye. And a lot of this had no interaction from outside elements at all. I don't really know what it was. And sometimes, it's a case of not knowing which came first, the dysphoria or the self image. Whether one created the other, and vice versa. But the end result, for me, is that my expression of myself is a very... self-contained thing.
I'm not going to say that experiences in my life haven't left their mark. No doubt they have. They have led to me being a more cautious, thoughtful, often scared... yet emotionally aware person overall. At least I think so. I don't really know, lol. I guess others are best placed to make that call. But I do see a fundamental difference between how I am, and who I am. I don't think they're the same thing. I think that maybe things that have happened to... hmm... I hesitate to say "me", because sometimes that isn't what it feels like at all. But you know what I mean. For the sake of argument, let's say the things that have happened to me... may have gone some way to shaping what kind of woman I am. But my feeling is that they had very little effect on the fact that I am a woman in the first place. That, for me is an all-pervading, whole body and mind sensation. And I guess some of what prompted this thread is that when I couldn't remember very much of what had happened in my past, this feeling of being who I am, the person I see in my mind's eye, the dysphoric feelings of a body which didn't quite fit... that never went away. Never lessened in strength, or discomfort in knowing the outside didn't match. And I don't think, in my case, it has very much to do with my past experiences in life. I think perhaps it's based more on experiencing how I feel when I am free from the restrictions of... hmm... of physical existence? When I'm afforded opportunities to exist as the truest example of who I am. Almost in a vacuum, perhaps. I'm not sure.
I don't think I did a good job of explaining any of that. The truth is, it's somewhat complicated for me to even understand myself.
Thanks for the in-depth response. It's nice to see all sides of our staff members. In terms of the internal feeling, I can relate. It's always been the case with me that I have been uncomfortable in my own skin. Throughout my life I've had tremendous physical dysphoria. Still do. Yet, I can't say whether my past had nothing to do with making me feel that way. It feels innate, but we are all a product of our environment. I guess how much we are is up for debate. I've been considering going into psychology and leaving politics behind (I feel like I can be more helpful to the world there), so perhaps one day I can answer that,lol.
What I cannot relate to is your detachment of oneself. I've always been puzzled by the transgirls who talk about estrogen developing their emotions and allowing them to feel. Ever since I was a kid, I have been very emotional and senstive, sometimes too much for my own good. That really hasn't changed much. Maybe I'm slightly more emotional too a degree, but that's it. Even though I try to hide it and act very guarded to protect myself from pain and rejection, once the gates come down you see how emotional and sensitive I really am. It's just hard to let down the imaginary wall between me and others at times because of the fear. However, detachment from my own experiences and feelings is something I could never relate to. I love feeling emotions both good and bad. It makes us human. Still I think it's interesting to hear other perspectives and see how everyone experiences life differently.
Do you think there is a reason you feel so detached? Is it a coping mechanism? Or do you simply believe in fate and think you are just on for the ride? I'm interested to hear your thoughts.
Quote from: learningtolive on October 20, 2013, 11:33:56 AM
What I cannot relate to is your detachment of oneself. I've always been puzzled by the transgirls who talk about estrogen developing their emotions and allowing them to feel. Ever since I was a kid, I have been very emotional and senstive, sometimes too much for my own good. That really hasn't changed much. Maybe I'm slightly more emotional too a degree, but that's it. Even though I try to hide it and act very guarded to protect myself from pain and rejection, once the gates come down you see how emotional and sensitive I really am. It's just hard to let down the imaginary wall between me and others at times because of the fear. However, detachment from my own experiences and feelings is something I could never relate to. I love feeling emotions both good and bad. It makes us human. Still I think it's interesting to hear other perspectives and see how everyone experiences life differently.
Do you think there is a reason you feel so detached? Is it a coping mechanism? Or do you simply believe in fate and think you are just on for the ride? I'm interested to hear your thoughts.
I don't think Sephirah means detachment as in not feeling emotions. I haven't met too many people as sensitive and emotionally intelligent as she is. :)
Quote from: learningtolive on October 20, 2013, 11:33:56 AM
What I cannot relate to is your detachment of oneself. I've always been puzzled by the transgirls who talk about estrogen developing their emotions and allowing them to feel. Ever since I was a kid, I have been very emotional and senstive, sometimes too much for my own good. That really hasn't changed much. Maybe I'm slightly more emotional too a degree, but that's it. Even though I try to hide it and act very guarded to protect myself from pain and rejection, once the gates come down you see how emotional and sensitive I really am. It's just hard to let down the imaginary wall between me and others at times because of the fear. However, detachment from my own experiences and feelings is something I could never relate to. I love feeling emotions both good and bad. It makes us human. Still I think it's interesting to hear other perspectives and see how everyone experiences life differently.
Do you think there is a reason you feel so detached? Is it a coping mechanism? Or do you simply believe in fate and think you are just on for the ride? I'm interested to hear your thoughts.
That's the interesting thing. I'm not detached from my emotions. In fact, quite the contrary. They sometimes rule me far more than they should. I go by intuition on many things. A feeling rather than any sort of concrete thought. In fact, during meditation, and my dreams, my emotions are sometimes heightened to an uncomfortable degree. And often that bleeds through into everyday life. I sometimes wonder if they come from the part of myself which feels detached from the person who is living my life. I don't know. Perhaps there's a link between emotional capacity and how in touch someone is with themselves. I don't know. I suspect wiser heads than mine will have to figure that out.
It manifests more as experiences going through a sort of filter. An intermediary. And it's almost as though I feel it in two different ways. The way it affects the person it happens to, and the person inside that person. Who often sees it differently, or muted, or something along those lines. To give you an example: Someone treating me as some guy they saw in the street. Thinking I understand the nuances of a conversation based on a perception of my biology. On the outside, I smile and let the conversation go on. One sided for the most part. But inside, I watch with a detached curiosity. And start asking questions. Like "Would you speak differently if you knew who you were really talking to?" or "What it is about me that you relate to?" or "Why do you feel the way you do about what you're talking about?" or "This obviously makes you feel <insert emotion here>, I can sense it. What is it you're looking for in form of a reply?"
Maybe this detachment is based on how much I am afforded the opportunity to express my true self. Maybe it's a mechanism developed at a very early age. I really can't say. There's very probably a term for it, likely ending in "-osis", lol. It's a very strange feeling though. Like you're living outside time, outside the world. Sometimes it feels, very literally, like being trapped inside someone else. Like being a spirit anchored in a body you neither want nor recognise.
I don't know if I believe in fate. I've never really given it much thought. I think I would rather we have the capacity to make our own future though. That appeals more to me.
Quote from: Sephirah on October 20, 2013, 11:57:41 AM
That's the interesting thing. I'm not detached from my emotions. In fact, quite the contrary. They sometimes rule me far more than they should. I go by intuition on many things. A feeling rather than any sort of concrete thought. In fact, during meditation, and my dreams, my emotions are sometimes heightened to an uncomfortable degree. And often that bleeds through into everyday life. I sometimes wonder if they come from the part of myself which feels detached from the person who is living my life. I don't know. Perhaps there's a link between emotional capacity and how in touch someone is with themselves. I don't know. I suspect wiser heads than mine will have to figure that out.
It manifests more as experiences going through a sort of filter. An intermediary. And it's almost as though I feel it in two different ways. The way it affects the person it happens to, and the person inside that person. Who often sees it differently, or muted, or something along those lines. To give you an example: Someone treating me as some guy they saw in the street. Thinking I understand the nuances of a conversation based on a perception of my biology. On the outside, I smile and let the conversation go on. One sided for the most part. But inside, I watch with a detached curiosity. And start asking questions. Like "Would you speak differently if you knew who you were really talking to?" or "What it is about me that you relate to?" or "Why do you feel the way you do about what you're talking about?" or "This obviously makes you feel <insert emotion here>, I can sense it. What is it you're looking for in form of a reply?"
Maybe this detachment is based on how much I am afforded the opportunity to express my true self. Maybe it's a mechanism developed at a very early age. I really can't say. There's very probably a term for it, likely ending in "-osis", lol. It's a very strange feeling though. Like you're living outside time, outside the world. Sometimes it feels, very literally, like being trapped inside someone else. Like being a spirit anchored in a body you neither want nor recognise.
I don't know if I believe in fate. I've never really given it much thought. I think I would rather we have the capacity to make our own future though. That appeals more to me.
So, it's sort of like on Saved by the bell where Zack could freeze time and think about the current situation? Bad analogy, I know, but it sounds sort of like that. I guess we all do that to a degree. I would say that's less of a personal detachment from the events of your life than it is just being plan observant and curious. Maybe your so used to being analytical and figuring people out that it makes you feel strange when you can't understand yourself or how you came to be you? Perhaps there are things about you that you can't comprehend and it creates some personal detachment from yourself? That I can totally understand.
Lots of people talk about being a kid and seeing someone changing a baby's diaper, and realizing then that there is a real physical difference between male and female. I didn't have that, since my folks always believed in being "natural", so my confusion and entrenchment into a male identity started early. Thank goodness I finally have a grasp on what is going on...
Anyway, if everything including the knowledge of physical sex differences was removed from me, I would say I would probably be confused as all get out. No idea how that might play out in terms of gender expression, but it probably would be very disturbing to me. Like someone yelling at me in a language I do not understand.