I went to an all-girls sleepover on Friday night, presenting female. I was so excited and two of the girls there were really good friends of mine, but three of them were girls I didn't know. Halfway through the night after a movie, one of the girls (let's call her Maggie) turns to me and asks, "So, how do you hide it?"
I try to play dumb and ask, "Hide what"? and then I turn to my other friend and ask a question trying to change the subject. I can feel my face getting hot. I know Maggie didn't ask the question of out malice, but out of curiosity. Still, I try and start a conversation with my close friend, Regan, but she stops me.
"Yeah, Chantal, how do you hide it? I've never asked. Can we see it? I mean, you've seen mine before."
"It's not the same," I said, faking a laugh.
"Why not?"
"Because I don't have a--"
"A p*ssy?" Maggie asks, "So, you're a girl, right? If you're a girl you wouldn't care if other girls saw what you had down there. It's not like we're going to care or anything. Show us!"
I shuddered, "I just don't want to. I wouldn't be comfortable. Not until I've changed it or had a surgery or whatever. I don't even like looking at it myself."
At this point, another girl (Eva) sighs, "Come on, Chantal. It's not a big deal. Show us."
My second close friend, Harlie, doesn't say anything. She can see my discomfort, how I feel like jumping out the window. She gives me a kinda sympathetic look, but doesn't come to my defense or try and change the subject. Maggie ended up reaching for my pajama pants and laughing as she tried pulling them down. I kicked her off of me and she goes, "What the <not allowed> was that for?"
Finally, Harlie said something: "Maggie stop."
The conversation/argument went on for a bit between these girls and I'm sitting there, feeling like a spectacle. I thought I'd be treated like a girl at this sleepover. For the most part, I was. But here we were, these girls trying to see it as if it's just there for their entertainment. Like I'm a freak in a freak show. A half woman. A half girl.
I pretended to go to sleep shortly after, but my throat was so tight. I felt like an idiot. My self-worth plummeted, momentarily, but it still plummeted. I felt anger, towards Harlie and Regan--especially Regan. I can't expect them to understand the severity of it. What they wanted to see. Yeah, I'v'e seen Regan naked, but it's not like I asked. She was getting dressed. I didn't ask to see her genitalia, so why did she want to see mine? I'm sure she's seen a d*ck before.
I just want it gone.
I don't want to experience something like this every again.
They should have stopped when they saw how uncomfortable this was for you. That's a given.
That being said, though, there's another way to look at this. It need not have been all about objectifying you. Admittedly, I've never spent any time with young girls in their safe spaces; but isn't revealing secrets an important ritual of inclusion? Kind of like "Truth or Dare?" Mutual humiliation does create a kind of a bond -- not what I would call healthy, but I think it's pretty common.
Again, they should have stopped. But it may not have been about making you feel different. It may have been just the opposite -- about making you one of the girls.
Oh, I thought of something else. Humor can be a great deflector. Someone once asked Carol Burnett if she would ever do a nude scene. She replied, "No, there's enough violence in the movies." When these girls asked what they asked, another response might have been, "I can't do that; anyone who sees it turns to stone." There are lots of possibilities. "What? I can't do that. You'll see him, and he'll see you, he'll get all depressed about what he'll never have, and then he'll keep me up all night, pissing and moaning, and I won't get any sleep at all." :)
@fleurgirl Dear Chantal:Certainly it was an uncomfortable and humiliating sleepover night for you. What you were expecting to be a fun event turned into a nightmare for you.... I am very sorry you had to experience that...
Easier said than done, it is over now, try to get over it and then look at this as a learning event.
Trust me, there will me more learning events during your transition and more uncomfortable moments.
Along with many other transitioners on this Forum, including myself, these embarrassing and unpleasant moments can come upon us more than once, then we learn and we try not to make the same mistakes again with things like:
...
picking the events you will attend considering who will be there and what will be expected of you.
...
understanding your pass-ability in all situations and initially choose situations with less risk.
...
finding out who your real and true and accepting friends are and staying close to them so that they WILL COME TO YOUR RESCUE if things go wrong.
...
having an escape plan, receiving a pre-planned cell phone call that gives you an excuse to leave.
...
safety in numbers, initially have
your proven and trusted and known good friends with you and always near you and ask them to be prepared to come to your defense.
We all will have failures, the important thing to remember is to always try and try again...
....nothing ventured, nothing gained.
I will be eagerly looking for your future postings... I am always rooting for your success, I am one of your biggest fans.
Wishing you well,
Hugs,
DanielleQuote from: fleurgirl on March 16, 2019, 07:50:52 PM
I went to an all-girls sleepover on Friday night, presenting female. I was so excited and two of the girls there were really good friends of mine, but three of them were girls I didn't know. Halfway through the night after a movie, one of the girls (let's call her Maggie) turns to me and asks, "So, how do you hide it?"
I try to play dumb and ask, "Hide what"? and then I turn to my other friend and ask a question trying to change the subject. I can feel my face getting hot. I know Maggie didn't ask the question of out malice, but out of curiosity. Still, I try and start a conversation with my close friend, Regan, but she stops me.
"Yeah, Chantal, how do you hide it? I've never asked. Can we see it? I mean, you've seen mine before."
"It's not the same," I said, faking a laugh.
"Why not?"
"Because I don't have a--"
"A p*ssy?" Maggie asks, "So, you're a girl, right? If you're a girl you wouldn't care if other girls saw what you had down there. It's not like we're going to care or anything. Show us!"
I shuddered, "I just don't want to. I wouldn't be comfortable. Not until I've changed it or had a surgery or whatever. I don't even like looking at it myself."
At this point, another girl (Eva) sighs, "Come on, Chantal. It's not a big deal. Show us."
My second close friend, Harlie, doesn't say anything. She can see my discomfort, how I feel like jumping out the window. She gives me a kinda sympathetic look, but doesn't come to my defense or try and change the subject. Maggie ended up reaching for my pajama pants and laughing as she tried pulling them down. I kicked her off of me and she goes, "What the <not allowed> was that for?"
Finally, Harlie said something: "Maggie stop."
The conversation/argument went on for a bit between these girls and I'm sitting there, feeling like a spectacle. I thought I'd be treated like a girl at this sleepover. For the most part, I was. But here we were, these girls trying to see it as if it's just there for their entertainment. Like I'm a freak in a freak show. A half woman. A half girl.
I pretended to go to sleep shortly after, but my throat was so tight. I felt like an idiot. My self-worth plummeted, momentarily, but it still plummeted. I felt anger, towards Harlie and Regan--especially Regan. I can't expect them to understand the severity of it. What they wanted to see. Yeah, I'v'e seen Regan naked, but it's not like I asked. She was getting dressed. I didn't ask to see her genitalia, so why did she want to see mine? I'm sure she's seen a d*ck before.
I just want it gone.
I don't want to experience something like this every again.
Quote from: Ann W on March 16, 2019, 08:35:16 PM
Humor can be a great deflector.
I definitely agree with you. I feel like if my mood had been slightly different, I would have used humor and wit. I suppose I was just taken aback.
Regarding the ritualistic inclusion: I know what you mean. Looking back, maybe it had been some form of that. One the other hand, I think they just wanted to see a trans-girl's John Hancock.
Thank you for your support, Danielle. It always means a lot to me
// I do feel a bit mortified. I keep over-thinking the night and what those girls now think of me and what I think of them, but it'll die down. At this point in my life I know I have to stay positive and keep on going--and going, and going. Resilience is key.
I'll definitely take your advice and jot it down somewhere, as I do with a lot of inspiring and educational stuff I come across on this forum. I'm counting down the days to my endocrinologist appointment, working hard in school and at work, and just dealing. I feel like a lot of my cracks from the past few months are beginning to meld together.
To put it into words, my emotions are beginning to solidify again and become more stable--but the ice beneath me is still thin. I don't know how else to phrase it.
This won't be the end of my sleepovers, or get-together s, or what-not. It's not like these girls know the ins and outs of being trans and what to do and what not to do. It's not my job to educate them, either, but if we continue hanging out then I'm sure I'll give them a few bits of info.
We're all just teenagers, after all, sometimes getting caught up in our own bubbles.
- Chantal
Quote from: Alaskan Danielle on March 16, 2019, 08:36:33 PM
@fleurgirl
Dear Chantal:
Certainly it was an uncomfortable and humiliating sleepover night for you. What you were expecting to be a fun event turned into a nightmare for you.... I am very sorry you had to experience that...
Easier said than done, it is over now, try to get over it and then look at this as a learning event.
Trust me, there will me more learning events during your transition and more uncomfortable moments.
Along with many other transitioners on this Forum, including myself, these embarrassing and unpleasant moments can come upon us more than once, then we learn and we try not to make the same mistakes again with things like:
... picking the events you will attend considering who will be there and what will be expected of you.
... understanding your pass-ability in all situations and initially choose situations with less risk.
... finding out who your real and true and accepting friends are and staying close to them so that they WILL COME TO YOUR RESCUE if things go wrong.
... having an escape plan, receiving a pre-planned cell phone call that gives you an excuse to leave.
... safety in numbers, initially have your proven and trusted and known good friends with you and always near you and ask them to be prepared to come to your defense.
We all will have failures, the important thing to remember is to always try and try again...
....nothing ventured, nothing gained.
I will be eagerly looking for your future postings... I am always rooting for your success, I am one of your biggest fans.
Wishing you well,
Hugs,
Danielle
Quote from: fleurgirl on March 16, 2019, 10:47:20 PM... This won't be the end of my sleepovers, or get-together s, or what-not. It's not like these girls know the ins and outs of being trans and what to do and what not to do. It's not my job to educate them, either, but if we continue hanging out then I'm sure I'll give them a few bits of info.
We're all just teenagers, after all, sometimes getting caught up in our own bubbles.
Part of being a teen is learning boundaries, personal space. When I read your post I could feel for myself how I would have responded - very closely or the same as you did (I'm 58!). I also read the age aspect in there even though you didn't specify. I read curiosity, opportunity. I didn't read maliciousness. Of course, I only have your words of description to go by.
Don't hold it against them, still you need to lay out your personal boundaries to them. The 'you've seen us we should see you' justification is just that, a justification. They need to try to grasp what it means to you and that it's not just an opportunity to satisfy their curiosities.
I am, sadly, way past the sleepover stage of life. I'll never get to experience it. Don't let one event spoil things for you.
Good luck in the future.
Faith
I hope some of that made sense
Chantal,
So sorry, this happened to you. What they did was shameful. You have no legitimate reason to feel shame from this. You did nothing wrong. You are dealing with a difficult situation, one not of your choosing. I guess the age of these girls can explain some of their actions. You can take a couple of paths from here. If you see the value of there friendships as low, you can divorce yourself from them. If you want to continue as friends, consider making this a teachable moment. Tell them the spot they put you in. Consider sharing how it made you feel. If they are to be your friends in the future, you want them to realize it was not you having a weird moment, but it was them putting you in a painful situation. Friends don't just have sleep overs. Friends support and try to understand each other.
Moni
Ouch! I'm so sorry this happened to you. The occasion could have been so positive and inclusive, and instead you felt devalued and wounded.
But welcome to the dark side of womanhood. In MTF world, we often idealize what women are like, emphasizing in our own minds the emotional warmth and sensitivity we aspire to. Those values are REAL, but they are NOT the only truth.
Women, particularly in a group, can display some chilling heartlessness and aggression. And while we usually associate the drive for social dominance with masculine personality, there's also a female variant as well, often expressed as a toxic, "mean girl," in-group versus out-group dynamic. I think that's what came out and bit you during the sleepover. Worse yet, since Maggie physically tried to pull down your pajama pants, her conduct came right up to the borderline of constituting a sexual assault.
You might want to take some time and collect your thoughts and have a long talk with Harlie and Regan, separately. Friendship is worth saving, if you can do it with honor. They need to understand how deeply you were wounded and why. But please understand that they may not accept the criticism. One of the hardest things for human beings to do is to understand and admit their errors or misconduct. And that's true whether you're male or female, trans or cis, gay or straight.
QuoteMy second close friend, Harlie, doesn't say anything. She can see my discomfort, how I feel like jumping out the window. She gives me a kinda sympathetic look, but doesn't come to my defense or try and change the subject.
So Harlie might be easier to talk to about this. It seems like she already understands what went wrong. Her fault is that, even though she understood what was happening with you, she was too weak to stand up against the social power of the group and defend you as she should have done.
Do you like to read? There's a novel you might want to look at,
Cat's Eye, by Margaret Atwood. (Most folks know Atwood as the author of "
The Handmaid's Tale.")
Cat's Eye is semi-autobiographical, and deals with Atwood's girlhood in Canada. In particular, it really lays out the peculiar - and sometimes dangerous and toxic - ways that girls struggle with each other for social dominance and acceptance. I learned a lot from reading it. I think it might shed some light on what happened to you at this disastrous sleepover.
Warmth and healing!
Quote from: itsApril on March 18, 2019, 12:27:23 PM
Do you like to read? There's a novel you might want to look at, Cat's Eye, by Margaret Atwood. (Most folks know Atwood as the author of "The Handmaid's Tale.") Cat's Eye is semi-autobiographical, and deals with Atwood's girlhood in Canada. In particular, it really lays out the peculiar - and sometimes dangerous and toxic - ways that girls struggle with each other for social dominance and acceptance. I learned a lot from reading it. I think it might shed some light on what happened to you at this disastrous sleepover.
Warmth and healing!
Thanks for your advice. I love reading, and Handmaid's Tale and Onyx and Crake by Atwood are some of my favorites. I'll definitely check the book out.
Xx, Chantal.
My two cents. They straight up ganged up on you and they were playing a dangerous game. If you had shown them, maybe it would've been over or maybe they would've latched onto it like a running joke that cut you every single time they brought it up. What you did, I think, was the right thing. You made it very clear that you were not comfortable with their fun at your expense and established clear boundaries. In the moment they got carried away but hopefully they've had time to process how their actions made you feel and they've developed some sense of remorse.
There was a "sleepover" in Netflix's movie "Girl" (https://www.netflix.com/title/81004374) . . . >:-)
Yikes
Harlie messaged me recently about an unrelated subject but eventually we talked about the sleeopver and she kinda apologized, even though she wasn't involved. I think I'm going to put this experience under the bridge.
Quote from: Sabrina Rei on March 19, 2019, 08:27:14 AM
My two cents. They straight up ganged up on you and they were playing a dangerous game. If you had shown them, maybe it would've been over or maybe they would've latched onto it like a running joke that cut you every single time they brought it up. What you did, I think, was the right thing. You made it very clear that you were not comfortable with their fun at your expense and established clear boundaries. In the moment they got carried away but hopefully they've had time to process how their actions made you feel and they've developed some sense of remorse.
Quote from: Chloe on March 19, 2019, 10:30:16 AM
There was a "sleepover" in Netflix's movie "Girl" (https://www.netflix.com/title/81004374) . . . >:-)
I've been dying to see that movie, but I don't have the $$$ for Netflix for the next few months. I need to watch it!
You did the right thing by not showing them "it". In a world of the Me Too era, it would be too easy to have one of the girls ruin your life. No consequences for them, but you would be in a world of hurt.
Quote from: Sabrina Rei on March 19, 2019, 08:27:14 AM
My two cents. They straight up ganged up on you and they were playing a dangerous game. If you had shown them, maybe it would've been over or maybe they would've latched onto it like a running joke that cut you every single time they brought it up. What you did, I think, was the right thing. You made it very clear that you were not comfortable with their fun at your expense and established clear boundaries. In the moment they got carried away but hopefully they've had time to process how their actions made you feel and they've developed some sense of remorse.
Completely agree with this reply too.
Sorry to sound cynical, but seems you were there as a form of entertainment for them.
Your so called closest friend should have come to your aid much quicker when she knew you were
feeling uncomfortable. Sorry you had to endure this anyway. x
Oh sweetie, that's appalling!
Please talk this through with your therapist - it's a traumatic experience at best (and sexual assault at worst) - identified by the way that you're thinking about it, and how it could/should have played out. There are times when our sexual assaults replay overwhelmingly some 30 years later - if only we had sought help sooner. The only thing we can say is that we are right here, with you, that you're going to be ok and that we will support you as best we can in this online world.
It was not your fault. You didn't ask for this. They did not respect your boundaries, or you as a person.
We do understand. (Hugs)
Rowan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kdzu26tnUTc
In the movie "Girl" Lara finally gives in to "popular demand" and as soon as she complies, by showing her "stuff", most if not all simply *giggle* then turn away in disgust.
What THEY don't get is Lara is the most embarassed, disgusted of all and she runs home to her father but refuses to say "what's wrong". (@ 0:56 & 1:10)
"It's not hard (to reveal) Should we see you as a girl or boy?
"Girl. Right""
I'm gonna start a hashtag: "Transgirls Need their Fathers More"! After their divorce and my wanting to transition I lived with my dad as well! Mom never knew and probably wouldn't have understood. I am that: Gold Dust Woman (https://www.youtube.com/embed/x6hkY4VvQAA) (Wish I had her voice, lol looks money & cocaine(?)!)
"It's not hard (to reveal) Should we see you as a girl or boy?"
Anyone who asks this question should be immediately purged from your universe. Just walk away.
I refuse to see the film. I've heard enough about it to know that it's not a positive experience -- and we girls don't need more negativity.
Quote from: fleurgirl on March 16, 2019, 07:50:52 PM
"It's not the same," I said, faking a laugh.
"Why not?"
fleurgirl having now seen the movie
*twice* (it's in French btw with English sub-titles so really 'ave to pay attention) your experience could have been used in the movie's script because that's exactly how the character "Lara" was treated (with the exception of her complying with peer pressure but end result was same regardless). Obviously, a no-win situation but only serves to demonstrate cis female insensitivity/stupidity an important lesson learned no doubt!
I was reluctant to watch it at first but now am glad I did. I don't get all the criticism the trans community is dishing out think director Lukas Dhont's choice of a very feminine looking cis male is authentic; I mean isn't that how we all started out? Think back to what you were doing when 15 years old. Know personally I was forced to make a choice between transition & career and couldn't, at the time, imagine trying to juggle both!
And found the focus on "body image" important still struggle with that to this day. The film also very well portrays a positive sense of *acceptance* overall did you also know director Dhont was only 18 when he made this film? The entire story is also based on the real-life experience and approval of transgirl Nora Monsecour (http://www.awardsdaily.com/2018/12/07/featurette-girl-lukas-dhont-speaks-about-the-story-behind-the-film/) so don't get it, "where's the beef"? My only objection was the ending which was terrible. Unsure why they chose to go that route 'cause that part, in Nora's real life, certainly didn't happen but then again, if you and character Lara had been post-op, none of the "
negative aspects" would have either!
(ps: Also love the care that "Lara" shows for 'lil brother have a three-year-old myself! Overall I feel the movie "Girl" is a good attempt at distancing "trans" from the LGB community I found it curious Lara's therapist just assumed she'd only like "boys"? And her one dangerous sexual encounter with fellow apt co-tenant (a male) was inconclusive at best)
Quote from: fleurgirl on March 16, 2019, 07:50:52 PM
"A p*ssy?" Maggie asks, "So, you're a girl, right? If you're a girl you wouldn't care if other girls saw what you had down there. It's not like we're going to care or anything. Show us!"
I shuddered, "I just don't want to. I wouldn't be comfortable. Not until I've changed it or had a surgery or whatever. I don't even like looking at it myself."
At this point, another girl (Eva) sighs, "Come on, Chantal. It's not a big deal. Show us."
Although it sounds like a mischievou prank among girls, I guess it can be included in various sexual harassment cases in legal terms. I also experienced similar treatments from women while sleepover. As I was drunken, I did not take it seriously, but sexual harassment can happen and be punished even between the same sexes.
A few years ago, a local district court of Daegu, here S. Korea, fined and ordered a woman at age 50 to take a sex offender treatment programs. The accused suspected that a young woman at age 20 might be a crossdresser in a public bathroom, forcefully touching her breasts to check her sex. The same charge can applied to between men, too.
You are not a toy, but a decent human being to be respected by both men and women.
barbie~~
Quote from: Ann W on March 19, 2019, 10:58:56 PM
"It's not hard (to reveal) Should we see you as a girl or boy?"
Anyone who asks this question should be immediately purged from your universe. Just walk away.
I refuse to see the film. I've heard enough about it to know that it's not a positive experience -- and we girls don't need more negativity.
Its hard to watch. I think there must be more positive ones out there. If anyone has something uplifting I would love to hear about it. *I know... Google to the rescue. Except I use a search engine that doesn't index and record all my searches.