As groups go the transexual community doesn't seem to be very active. Witness this forum which seems to get so little attention. It's like this is the place were posts go to die.
Kitten asked for some help for a speaking engagement of some kind but received no responses from the rest of the group. Unfortunately I wasn't here when she posted it so I was too late to help. Which is too bad since I've got an opinion on just about any subject and I'm not afraid to use them. >:D
I noticed in the News forum a recent post from Leigh which ought to be addressed. One of the things about the aftermath of 9/11 was that people kept defending Islam as a religion of peace, but the pundits would always ask, "then why hasn't the Islamic leadership come out and denounced the actions of these terrorists."
If we are not to be lumped in with people like the man in the article (see"just great" in the Community Alerts section), then we must as a community respond to such things before the media turns it into a transgender bash fest or worse.
Fortunately we do have an outlet we can turn to for help the GLBT organizations around the country could be contacted according to the region in which such an unfortunte occurance might take place and a statement issued on behalf of the community denouncing the perp.
From the standpoint of being a trans I know we don't like to draw attention to ourselves because we are busy trying to be accepted as the gender to which we identify. But, we will all loose gains that have been made if we don't take some kind of action.
I emplore everyone to join in here and discuss possible plans of action whenever our rights as individuals are threatened either by the actions of fringe perverts or the religious intolerance of the zealots of the christian right or left. Let us not go gently into that dark night.
Cassie
I think the window of opportunity to become a active Transsexual is extremely short. In my opinion, only a few transsexual women and men that I have seen on the net, Post Op, dwell with the community. I get the sense (could be wrong) that you experience it, morph, grow, then move on. The ones that I see remaining active are ones that lead organizations or hold similar positions.
New blood that I see come in ( I dont know timelines, just surmising) take a while to become active and intermingle with the community. Then once joining into the community, rapidly progress towards new things.
Many of the very active members I have seen TS are smack down in the middle of the process.
The ones in the middle are also spending vast amounts of money to change, get hormones, hair removal (female), breast surgeries (men remove breasts, female implants), SRS, and facial / body sculpting surgeries to transition, and have less money to invest in causes. I cant see this kind of spending (besides clothes and wigs) from drags and TVs.
I have never taken any surveys, nor sought out factual data.
Now for Transvestites, drag, intersexuals things might be more stable and less changing / morphing (though transitioning intersexed join in with the TS processes and money if they transition radically). I see several gay drag active groups, parades, marches, and contests. These groups have less of a morph and move on process. Transvestites have solid communities and organizations old and young. Intersex organizations are out there, I have seen a few.
Transexuals though are a changing integrating social group that I think tries to blend in and live life out as the real woman that was meant to be. Turning around and looking back would seem entirely furthest thing on the mind, unless thats was an important interest or part of a career.
All of this is just generalizations and personal thoughts and feelings.
Maybe I just live in a more isolated life.
Share your thoughts.
Hello Kendra.
I have to agree with you. I think that you've got it right. It's sad to say, but true. In Canada I think that we are more active because our Human Rights, and our Constitution, almost demand that we are (note the recent same sex marriage legislation that just pased). This shouldn't stop the TS community from voicing their concerns on an issue. I know that my hope is to be considered only as a woman by everyone in the near future, and not as TS. But in the mean time I'll continue to lend my support and voice to trans issues as they manifest themselves. Personally, it's all that I can do at this time.
Kendra brings up some very good points with the situation of TS who are trying to transition or those TS who have transitioned and their need for a post-op support system. I discussed these very points off line with another member, and we came to the same conclusion. Yes you could call us the selfish members of the whole trans community, but I don't feel that way.
I'm going to post this now as I have to dash, but I'll check back on the thread laterto see how it's going.
Steph
Yes, the points ya'll brought up are the reasons I thought of as to why there is so little activism for transexual rights. My thought is that if we could each do a little something along our journey it might help others in the future and to some extent ourselves in the present.
Helping someone with a letter writing campaign, calling in a press release. As I said the GLBT network can help with PR and not cost any one person a lot of time and money. I don't think we're being selfish by concentrating more on our transition instead of getting involved in proactive organizational things. We've spent so much time and effort getting to where we are it can seem a little counterproductive to go off tilting at windmills.
More thoughts?
Cassie
Selfish for wanting to be normal? That normalcy that has been denied us all our lives? No, I would not call that selfish.
As far as activism goes perhaps what can be done is too shrouded in mystery?
Hello all
Those are great points, and I agree that if we can each do something to help with trans issues as we move along our journey then it would be great for those who follow, maybe make it easier. I know that as I write this that the Ontario Human Rights Commission is deciding on a challenge from the trans community here, that if successful, will see the re-listing of GRS under our health care plan called OHIP. If it wins then our GRS surgery will be covered. This is where the trans community can help, by getting behind an issue like this. It makes a difference, but in this case will only benefit the trans community.
I guess the problem with us is that we are only "TRANSient", although some journeys are longer than others. Gay, and lesbians are always gay and lesbian, for example, so their cause will never go away for them. Kimberly I agree, I don't think we're selfish for wanting what been denied us, but maybe others may think that. :)
I'm not very good at expressing my thoughts, so bear with me. :)
I have, or had, TS friend who I've been emailing for several years. We both started our transition about the same time, we are both the same age in in roughly the same marriage situation, we even started HRT at the same time. We used to email each other all the time letting each other know how we were both doing, much like on the forums here. Two weeks ago she wrote and told me that she had her date for GRS in October. Although I was so happy for her, and I told her that, but at the same time I felt a great loss, that she was coming to the end of her transition and was moving on. Am I being selfish??? This is what I'm talking about. I can be confusing :)
Steph
What things are needed most out there, for TSes? (especially things that active community can pursue)
Might be great to start listing ideas, Unless there are some already posted somewhere I dont know =) Im a new girl, havent seen every post or site yet. If so would like to see any links. See what common issues there are.
Here are first things that I think of: (I have seen a few organizations try tackling a few of these, dont remember the links though)
*Help keep up to date info on transitioning and support (this site does excellent job in this area)(older sites get outdated rather quickly)
*I would put down to help keep SoC current, up to date, and relavent.
*Support science that pursues medicines, dna/reproductive abilities to all humans (ability to create wombs, ovaries, breast tissues, penises, testicles, and such)
*Job and workplace focus on skills and abilities (with all other groups striving for this)
*Ensure Laws recognize transitioned people
Now of this list, only maybe the last 3 would appeal (and if there are organizations doing them they probably do) to even Post-ops
Those are just a few things that just pops into my mind.
after physical transition it is easy to just drop out of site, as gradually all the paperwork changes and the person builds a new history, not just with paper but by living it in the new role, and it is terribly easy to just accept that saying nothing will result in acceptance whereas revelation may cause rejection.
so one can't really blame people for being happy, for the first time in their lives, and wanting to squeeze all of the juice out of that lemon, however short sighted it may actually be.
nevertheless, some people find after a while that they don't regret some of the things that they learned in their previous gender role, and cannot identify with all of the things in their new one, leaving them as sort of "in-between" people, without much depth in any role, but with a fantastically broad view of all roles.
this positions people to comment on everything they see with some validity, so some people get drawn back into activism to have a voice, and find satisfaction in *that* role.
and then, as noted, some of us were activists anyway, and changing the gender of activists is just more grist for our mills.
so the fascinating range of human behaviour continues to fascinate, and those who go "stealth" and gain happinesss that way are just as important as everyone else, and assure us of the rightness of transition as therapy.
Quote from: CassandraOne of the things about the aftermath of 9/11 was that people kept defending Islam as a religion of peace, but the pundits would always ask, "then why hasn't the Islamic leadership come out and denounced the actions of these terrorists."
Good question, and a few have, though some want to take a neuetral stance. On the other hand there is a lot more that skews the Islam/Muslim perception. The vast majority of Arabs in the United States are christians, not muslims. Also 40 percent of American muslims are black, not Arab.
Also there are democracies in the world that are Muslim besides Afghanistan and Iraq. Both of those still have not proven themselves, especially Afghanistan. Mali and Senegal (Africa) are both stable democracies with 90+ percent Muslim populations.
I'm not attempting to stick up for Muslims in anyway, just trying to show that fundamentalist Islam doesn't speak for the entire Muslim population, nor are all decended from Muslim countries Islam funamental extremist, and what we preceive as Muslim or Islam isn't always the case.
Sandi
I was very active in the politics of acceptence, no more.
My opinion, all you do is paint a target on yourself. Not only the segment of society that wishes to deny our existence and our rights but also those who are somewhere within the tg spectrum.
I stood up, said my piece to the newspaper, had my pictures on two pages to the states largest newspaper, campaigned and spoke up for gender identity ordinances for what? To be villified because some groups were not included in specific laws! To walk into a place and eveyone knowing and pointing.
I'll pass thank you very much.
Leigh
I have been in the thick of politics in Eugene, Oregon. We have been trying to put Gender Identity into the nondiscrimination ordinance here for about 4 years now. So far we have had little success. i do think that one can be an activist and not get their name or picture into the media. We do need people to stand up and fight for our basic rights, who will do this for us? I don't think anyone will. Usually we get sidelined.
It is a lot of hard work to get something passed into legislation. I didn't realize how hard it was until I started doing something about it. Unfortunately, I had a lot of things going against me, like only having a high school diploma no formal education except life, then transitioning and surgery all in these years, not to mention trying to save a marriage and my family. I also retired and with in a two year span got another job. I was also on the Human Rights Commission in Eugene for about a year. I don't think I would have started this if I would know about all the work that it would take. On top of all of this, I tried like Hell to get others to participate and it wasn't until this last year and half anyone tried to help out. I have quit trying anymore, let others take over or should I say they took over. It is a hard emotional, physical roller coaster to do something like this. Yes, I have been on TV, picture in the newspaper on the radio and in front of people. People in this town and who knows where know me. I don't get bothered at all and I live my life freely as a woman. We are about to put the ordinance change to the city council this fall, hopefully.
In writing this I hope that people would participate in any way they can. We need the change or we will be discriminated against. We have the biggest unemployment rate of all minorities. We have a huge suicide attempts and successes as adults and as youth. We are turned away more times than should be at emergency rooms and we get little or no medical help. Our families and friends disassociate from us. So we need to have a voice and to be part of something in your community. You don't have to be vocal and get into the media, but some help behind the scenes would be grateful.
I guess instead of two cents I must have spent a quarter here.
Sheila
Quote from: Leigh on July 15, 2005, 08:29:51 PM
I was very active in the politics of acceptence, no more.
My opinion, all you do is paint a target on yourself. Not only the segment of society that wishes to deny our existence and our rights but also those who are somewhere within the tg spectrum.
I stood up, said my piece to the newspaper, had my pictures on two pages to the states largest newspaper, campaigned and spoke up for gender identity ordinances for what? To be villified because some groups were not included in specific laws! To walk into a place and eveyone knowing and pointing.
I'll pass thank you very much.
Leigh
And this, I think, is the crux of the issue. I understand what everyone has said in this thread, BUT, when I succeed in my personal fight to transition, I would find it hard to be pulled back into the world (not a great term) I just left. That is why I think that I, and many other trans people are selfish. We all know how much courage, guts, conviction, or what ever else you want to call it, it takes to transition, and the hardships we have to over come to get there. But i think that we/I can be more help to those like me by relating my own personal experiences with trans issues while I'm experiencing them, not after the fact.
It may be considered the cowards way out, but we fight so hard to be accepted as women, and I think that it would be just as hard to distroy that by risking revealing our past by standing up and saying our piece. A gay person is always gay, and a lesbian is always a lesbian, but a TS is just a temporary state. For me it is a very hard issue to get my head around as I've been helped so much by those who are transitioning as compared to those who have transitioned (no offence Leigh, but I know you understand where I'm coming from).
This is very hard, but it's something that I think is good to talk about. Being a successful TS I guess means that you become a role model of sorts to those who follow, and, I guess, that like it or not we may be duty bound to act on their behalf. As it stands right now I would/will fight tooth and nail for trans rights, etc... but after I transition I'm not so sure I would be so out in the open. I would be more comfortable working in places like Susan's (see I'm selfish) :) :)
I just wish I could explain this better.
Steph
Steph
Sheila
My last experience was when I drove to Eugene to just be at the college to show my support.
My activism is in the G&L community now. Volunteering with the HRC and BRO during the No on 36 campaign (gay marriage) and now the current civil union bill that is before before the Oregon House of Representitives.
I didn't go through what I have to spend the rest of my life with a scarlet T branded on my forehead.
Stephanie I totally understand what you meant. A person can only spend so much time beating their head against a brick wall before it begins to hurt. I have tried to explain "Its not about clothes, its about being" more times than I can count, even to ones who should know better.
"I would find it hard to be pulled back into the world (not a great term) I just left."
"To be villified because some groups were not included in specific laws!"
All the pain, all the lonlyness and all the loss. To die and be reborn in darkness, in quest of love and light, Only to have to relive it over again, moment by moment and to be called traitor by those who need the least and do not understand the ultimate goal or the needs of those with more immediate, desperate need.
Post about high heels and wigs and start a landslide of replies, start one of need for a cause or a TS in trouble and a few "such a shame"'s and it's over. Kill thousands of women a year and it's just life, punch one TV in the nose and it's national hate crime week. It's sad, but it's true.
Terri
I believe that since i was well on my way to becoming something like a general human/animal/planetary rights activist in my life prior to beginning transition, this entire transformational process for me, is only adding more and more fuel to the fire as i go along, as it were... There are far too many injustices still happenng in the world to too many people and inncoent creatures of all species, walks of life, and for far too many reasons to be allowed to be ignored for much longer, to the extent that most people still seem to be all to happy to do, in order to just keep some sense of "normalcy", whatever the living hell that actually is...
To me, its just a natural matter of course in my life that i will take a stronger, more active, more visible, and more controversial role in dealing with all of these things, as i grow deeper, and grow older, and become still more aware, more self sufficient, more fearless, more well educated, well connected, and more capable of actualizing all these things like this for myself and all others along the entire walk of life in general, in a world apparently gone utterly mad with total numbness, imcompetence, apathy, hatred, bigotry, conflict, lack of social awareness, lack of global and cultural awareness, loss of connection to our natural world, our spiritual nature of lovingness and therefore ourselves, and the lies, greed and bloodshed of politics, industry, class warfare, and socio-economics gone entirely amok that continues to kill, maim, injure, abuse, rape, pillage, plunder, distort, threaten, misinform, miseducate, and completely disempower the human being and the entire organism of life on this planet as we know it, in all of its myriad and miraculous forms....
Lovingly always,
Love Forever,
Annagirl
Tried looking around Susans.org at current orgs listed there and somewhat current. Will point out before, that this is a list of what I see, and dont mean to advocate any of them, nor validate the truthfulness nor effectiveness of such organizations. Just putting them up to see some of whats out there. One should research and question each one before investing money or time.
http://www.ntac.org/ - USA Transgender Civil Rights - Law reform
http://www.hrc.org/ - USA GLBT equality law - Law reform
http://www.transgender.org/gidr/index.html - DSM reform org
http://www.transgenderlaw.org/ - USA TG Law
http://www.gender.org - USA gender variant mostly promotes educating from what I see
http://www.survivorproject.org/ - domestic and sexual violence
http://www.tgender.net/taw - helping to form and reform company policies to T friendly
http://www.glaad.org/programs/cim/trans.php? - part of GlAAD mentions Trans
This list is just some I seen looking through Politics section of susans.org
... and don't forget the elephant in the living room:
STEALTH
many people have suffered for a long time being typecast wrongly, and transition represents a flight to freedom, with passing in the opposite role as a reward.
people who succeed with this often remain stealth, and see no reason to tell their past to all and sundry.
can you really blame them? in my heart i cannot. perhaps they can live The Dream and be happy, if so then more power to them.
the flotsam like myself, that pass poorly, needs cultivate a Yeah So What mentality as a simple measure of mental health, and end by declaiming Feminist cant.
it will be easier if we all look for ways to help each other; that is how you build a community, even distributed, even electronic.
then perhaps a life of activism, being openly yourself with with no regrets, is as satisfying as Stealth, with it's new restrictions and expectations, and the brightest, kindest of the youth will invigorate our struggle.
Here's a couple more to add to the list:
http://www.equalitymaryland.org/
They seem to be doing a very aggressively good amount of work here in my home state and i will regularly post updates from their site here on the forum that are relevant.
http://www.gpac.org/
Havent studied this organiztion yet, but they see to also be heading in right direction for all TG rights and issues...
Committment, fearlessness, insight, honesty, and a strong motivation to help others, as well as unfailingly strong motivation to confront and deal with the kinds of injustices and untruths still rampant in the world today that negatively impact so many people's lives....
Forums like this can help to do many of these things, and Susan has given the world a beautiful gift of truthfulness and depth of knowledge and information in this forum and the Wiki, from her willingness to act, to commit, and to gather like-minded others around her to assist in this process - it will all take time, but we can never give up hope that changes will come - but only if we simply accept that failure is not an option...
Lovingly always,
Love Forever,
ChefAnnagirl
"There is no figurehead for our people. Jackie Robinson did a very good thing for the African-American community; he played Major League Baseball (and helped win a couple games from what I understand). We need someone who will energize transgendered America. We need an aggressive player who isn't afraid to slap around the opposition. "
What he did was face the racist descrimination and play despite all who tried to prevent him from doing so and thus opened the door for black athletes. He had commitment and the courage to stand behind that commitment. If the TG community had only a fraction of this kind of commitment for what the say is important to them, things would slide along nicely.
In the first place, The Transgender community refuses to define it self, who is and who is not. While I understand this from within the community it flys politically like a lead ballon. It is asking for rights for a specific group which has subgroups which have different diredtion in thier goals and social needs while giving no understandable or workable definition of why some sub groups actually need the gender specific rights of the minority whithin it. . The refuse to differentuate the importance or need for different segments of the group as a whole. If one segment is documented and medically evaluated to deserve and need a specific right then the TG community wants that right for anybody and everybody even if having it would have no effect on thier daily lives and is not needed because of the way they identify in public and at work, school etc.
It is my belief we need to work for the rights of all, but define points of full inclusion according to the realistic and medical need within the different subgroups. This isn't discrimination or elietism, it is common sense and respect for others within the mainstream.
It is asking the mainstream to give up privacy and peace of mind to people who give nothing but the fact that they wear some form of female attire on occassion, while fully identifying as their birth sex in thier public life,but with no medical documentation of any need to do so, or proof of injury to themselves if they don't have full inclusive rights of recognition within the opposite sex.
For segments who have demonstrated commitment and are medically documented, spcial rights may be justified, but others who refuse to produce any qualification or proof of need expect the same rights though they would only need those rights on specific occassions, not on a daily minute by minute bases 24/7/365.
It doesn't make sense to anyone, even many of those in desperate need. If the community were to accept degrees or steps of rights depending on documentation and need, it would likely be different, but the community refuses this and wants it all for everybody and is unaccepting of simple gender identity laws which protect their jobs, housing, freedom from harrassment and discrimination and such but doesn't allow them full female acknowledgement.
AS far as figureheads, It is as Leigh has said. When those who are truely committed enough to step forward and walk the burning coals for the community, the community then burns them at the stake for not supporting full female recognition for every memember of the community, regardless of full time identification or for only achieving the Identity type laws which don't give full female inclusion, yet protects thier right to crossdress or whatever. Its almost being brain dead for a truely committed person to get involved anymore as it is an almost impossible task to give the community what it wants under the conditions the community wants. The ones the least in need of total inclusion outnumber by a thousand to one those who have the true need and yet yell the loudest while also being the ones totally unlikely to come forward and yet still attempt to control the direction of the polititics.
I to would rather work in the G&L for rights that the community has little or no concern for but are important for those with full commitment and documented proof of need.
Oh well, getting to close to a former stand and attitude that the TG community can't stand, and ended up getting me banned from her for a couple of years, but these beliefs and attitudes are still with me, even if I try to be nicer about it these days.
Terri
Terri -
As usual, you totally rock, girl -
HUMANE RIGHTS, in general.... We should all be striving to accomplish everything we can on every level of human relations, and care for our great mother planet Earth, better than we have -
Once people begin to realize that we all need to contribute more honestly and responsibly to ourselves, each other, and the world we live in, in general, the rest simply follows - people will natuarally gravitate towards what moves them - and it is a quite natural selection process -
Everyone will not choose to define themselves or their veiws by what others use to set the same standards for themselves -
What moves you, or me, or the next person, to "activism" on any level, will hopefully be what is right for that individual, made of free will, and from a committed and motivated feeling of honestly being willing and desiring to positively contribute to that cause, whatever it may be...
Myself, I must have acceptance for anyone that feels compelled to express themselves as they honestly feel they need to, regardless of whether any other group, person, or clinical definition supports or validates that person's experience - only that person can know, and therefore, who is anyone else to judge the vallidity of their personal experience unless they are literally walkng in their shoes, feelings, emotions, and experiences with them - i think we all just have to get to better place of unconditional acceptance and loving understanding for all our fellow human beings, and all living creatures for that matter - - to do so otherwise i believe strongly to be a great shortfall/and shortcoming to our actual potential to truly and unconditionally love - the one true thing that we are all ultimately created from in the first place - not only to the other but ourselves truly as well...
I believe that it is impossible to truly love and learn and have acceptance for any or all others unless we first learn to have that level of loving acceptance for ourselves - look at the world today full of hatred, ignorance, apathy, conflict, and discrimination and hateful judgement - THATS A LOT OF PEOPLE WALKING AROUND AND "LIVING LIFE" THAT DONT HAVE EVEN THE SLIGHTEST CLUE HOW TO LOVE AND ACCEPT THEMSELVES, MUCH LESS ANYONE ELSE, FOR JUST BEING THEMSELVES AS THEY FEEL THEY HAVE TO BE...as long as that self expression doesnt involve the abuse or violation of others' personal rights and freedoms, or supports continued hatred, negativity, ignorance, or unjustified persecution or violence towards any other in any way whatsoever - they are completely entitled to it, as far as i am concerned.... Ths is the essence of unconditional acceptance or at least loving acceptance and the willingness to learn from and celebrate the distinctive individuality of all of our fellow human beings...
Lovingly always,
Annagirl
"we all just have to get to better place of unconditional acceptance and loving "
And you go on with the "unconditional acceptance" value. It is what I was talking about. All things have conditions. To expect otherwise is to be naieve. Even to be granted special considerations as a handicapped individual you must be able to prove and confirm your status as actually being handicapped and so forth, just running around in a wheel chair without medical documentation you actually need it will not get you so much as a parking permit. You can't drive a car in this country unless you can prove insurance responsibility and legal age to do so, yet the TG community wants to be accepted as being members of the opposite sex and have full recognition as being of the opposite sex without having to show any cause at all to accept them as such other then they say they are, or don't have other psychological problems or fetishes which have notihng to do with actual Gender identity issues. thus no qualifying proof of opposite Gender status.
This is the crux of the problem in political circles. While there are those who can produce the documentation of experts who agree with thier view of themselves and have fully commited themselves to achieving that recognition and have braved all obsticles in order to do so, there are others (the far greater majority of TG community) who will not accept the problems associated with doing so, and have in no way made any steps to confirm thier own beliefs and have not shown the public in any way why they should be granted any special rights other then that they themselves want it.
Within the actually committed segment, all that can be done has and is being done to address discrimination (within the guidlines TG community insists on) against those that show no visable or believable commitment, but the greater majority of the TG community complains about being betrayed by the G&L because all they get in existing laws is freedom from discrimination over identification factors but do not get complete and free access to bathrooms and places of nudity, or special working conditions reserved for individual sexes or the right to be universally be accepted by all and any as actually being what they believe they are even though members of the opposite birth sex do not see them as one of their own and accept them as such on a personal level.
They tend to forget that those with the greatest commitment and the most to lose must also live under the restrictions of the laws that are able to get passed in the political invironment. These are in fact being held back by the unreasonable demands of the greater majority of the community and are critized by the community for having reason to be resentful of it, but yet these in the minority(so very few of the whole) still attempt to work for the greater good of all the community even though they have personal reservations for continuing to do so.
No Anna, Unconditional is unacceptable unless you have earned that right and status among those who must grant it. It would be the hieght of stupidity for it to be otherwise and is not logical or safe to conduct your life in such a way. Everything must be earned, nothing can be given for free as everything has a price tag in the end that someone must pay, even if not yourself, so when something is given, it has to be because it has been earned, not just because you want it.
the full identification and use rights must be defined according to the actual need of specific individuals in order to be politically workable, yet it is this very concept that the majority of the community is against, since they know they would only qualify for the anti-discrimination rights which is all they actually need, but do not want to be restricted to. And because of this, The few who are irrevocably and undeniably committed to no return to what they were born as must suffer in a way no CD or TV could even imagine. NO appology for how that statement sounds as the truth can not be oppologised for.
And again, I am all for anti-descrimination rights for the majority of the community who haven't got a clue as to what the real deal is all about, but I believe the totally and irrevocably committed full time individuals not only NEED but DESERVE less restrictive atmospheres not given or granted to the rest. But then they can't push for that without drawing fire from the very community they try thier best to help.
Terri
Quote from: TerriIn the first place, The Transgender community refuses to define it self, who is and who is not. While I understand this from within the community it flys politically like a lead ballon. It is asking for rights for a specific group which has subgroups which have different diredtion in thier goals and social needs while giving no understandable or workable definition of why some sub groups actually need the gender specific rights of the minority whithin it. . The refuse to differentuate the importance or need for different segments of the group as a whole. If one segment is documented and medically evaluated to deserve and need a specific right then the TG community wants that right for anybody and everybody even if having it would have no effect on thier daily lives and is not needed because of the way they identify in public and at work, school etc.
Exactly, and I couldn't begin to say it so well.
Not just here but at every TG site that I am aware of we are to pretend that we are all alike. Hogwash. We need to respect one another and respect each others views, but to say that we all have the same needs is a cognitive dissonance that drives a wedge separating beliefs from "reality." Accommodation and assimilation are not the same thing.
Quote from: TerriIt is asking the mainstream to give up privacy and peace of mind to people who give nothing but the fact that they wear some form of female attire on occassion, while fully identifying as their birth sex in thier public life,but with no medical documentation of any need to do so, or proof of injury to themselves if they don't have full inclusive rights of recognition within the opposite sex.
Yep, for example how can we expect society to accept those that are 24/7/365 female to the core in their restrooms, when we also ask them to under the same umbrella accept weekend-only part time women, who cheerfully love their role as male the rest of the week? It only keeps those that really don't have a choice from receiving understanding. Nor will I back legislation for restroom acceptance unless it narrows its scope as such.
Accept each other, yes of course, and respect each other even when we don't agree, but never will I accede that our needs are the same, nor can a lot of our legislative needs be fought for successfully as one wide "all transgender" group.
Sandi
Thank you for your understanding of my remarks Sandi. Until the TG community as a whole comes to terms with the reality of the issue, it will always be an uphill fight for less then any of us need.
Terri
"Yep, for example how can we expect society to accept those that are 24/7/365 female to the core in their restrooms, when we also ask them to under the same umbrella accept weekend-only part time women, who cheerfully love their role as male the rest of the week? It only keeps those that really don't have a choice from receiving understanding. Nor will I back legislation for restroom acceptance unless it narrows its scope as such"
Another part of the issue which many tend to overlook or not care about. As a community the greatest focus is on the MtF side of the issue. What about our brothers in the FtM side of it?
It is just another example of the male oriented viewpoint and concern within the TG community as a whole and in public conciousness. There is so much focus on the MtF side of it and it's often unreasonable demands and expectations that the FtM side is shoved aside and suffers accordingly, it is why the Gay population seperated into G&L segments in the first place. All focus and activity was oriented toward the male need and focus, even at the expense of the female population, thus they were forced to identify seperately in order to have thier voices heard and taken seriously.
The actual Male identity of most of the MtF segment in effect overpower the female viewpoint of MtF's who are fully identified as female and makes the FtM viewpoint almost invisable to the public and delays or prevents passage of laws which they need just as much. How much longer must we continue to expect the unreasonable within the MtF side before the FtM feels it necessary to split from us in order to have thier own viewpoints heard and understood before the MtF segment gets a clue?
Once the fully identified seperate along with the full support of FtM's, in order to sufficiently address their very real issues which are being ignored by the rest, how far do you think the Male Identified supposedly MtF's will get fighting on thier own without them, since it would seem most all of the actual work is done by these groups from within the community itself?
Terri
Edited to correct MtF errors at 3:37 my time
This argument basically says that because my skin is lighter or darker than yours, or i speak a different language that you dont relate to from your own personal experience,
i am therefore not entitiled to be, nor express myself in the manner which i most honestly desire to do under the very same inalienable rights of all other beings to do so...
Again, i think this is an illusion of lies that the human community at large, whether straight or gay or bi or TG or TV or CD or otherwise has created to separate each other from one another...and all this does is continue the cycles of bigotry, separatism, and "ownership" of what consitiutes either one "correct" value or another, that have persisted for this long...
Ive been brutally persecuted as a child and lied to and tormented by others most of my life - so dont think for a minute that you're talking to someone that comes by such things blithely and unaware...
I feel that We are all part of ONE organsim, as a planet and a species, and the laws of natural "karmic" cause and effect as well as natural selection will always apply in effect, whether people accept that or like it or not.
I also feel that There are no real boundaries of country or culture as far as i am concerned, other than what we have all allowed to be manufactured and fostered for eons for overriding reasons of maintaining the undercurrent of political, economic, class structure, sexual prowess, social injustice, bigotry, and false religions, as humanity has evolved into its current state.
I understand the difficulties that many of the good points that you bring to the table, politically speaking, are in our current climate, and entirely valid in terms of extending protective rights and protections to those that truly posess the prerequisite committment to go through a process like this, as opposed to someone that uses it as a shield or other means of manipulating the system and others for personal gain and/or other reasons. Some indeed, due to other psychological or psychosocial problems that this or that person may or may not have that need to deal with accordingly - but who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to judge the validity of a single other person's experience unless you personally know them and have literally read their minds, thoughts, feelings, and motivations - I believe that THIS is the crux of the problem where something like unconditional trust and true acceptance among and across all social boundaries are concerened for people at present...
Instead of worrying about what we all could do positively, to make a global difference in the quality of life for every single one of us, and just accepting that those that are evil and negative and disingenous will be "taken care of", in time, by Karma, or God, and their own spirits, as well as those that will willingly choose to take them to task and expose them for what they are, i feel like we spend more time worrying about how to tear down, compartmentalize, label, judge, and regulate evreything and everyone else, based on what we think we "own" as being intellectually, politically, spiritually, or philosophically "correct"... I strongly believe that Anything of an untrue nature will, by virtue of its own faults, eventually be exposed as such - otherwise, the old adage of "innocent until proven gulity" was a strict measure and expression of complete and almost unconditional trust and acceptance extended, as an inalienable human right, to all persons until or unless proven otherwise...
Yes - call me crazy if you want, tell the world that you think its dangerous and invalid for me or anyone else to think and feel and live their lives that way, but it dosent make you "right" about it, dear sister(and i really mean that about you)...
Problem here is, that i strongly believe in karmic cause and effect based on the strength of my own personal life's experience and am trying to live my own life more and more so accordingly. They called or still now do, Jesus, Martin Luther King, Gandhi, John Lennon, and many other unconditionally loving, trusting and accepting people crazy, too, and many were brutally killed exactly for being the unconditonally loving, forgiving and powerfully accepting persons that they were....
Oh well, so be it.... still gonna love and respect you anyway... as well as another 5 or 6 billion people that i haven't so far met personally as well...
I might not like a lot of what i see in others or what i see them do, but unless i can actually stand in their or your head for that matter, how can i truly draw complete or final judgement about you or them ? Its a difficult road to walk on top of everything else i still have to go through, but its one that i have gladly, consciously, and willingly accepted, no matter how difficult and thoroughly frustrating it can be... To claim the ability to judge the validity of another persons experience for them without personally having been witness to their experience from within them, is always going to be a LIE, no matter how you cut it.. Just like all the so called "polls" that say "80%" of the American people"; "65% of the American people"; "35% of all high school age students", 67% of all women over the age of 38," etc. etc. etc... Its all a pack of lies as far as i'm concerned because i'ts entirely subjective, mostly used for specific political or social gain by one group over another, and not based on the true and real experience of every single individual person supposedly being spoken for...
I WAS mainly just talking about human experience in general and how attitudes and feelings could obviously be adjusted to help prevent futher warfare, ignorance, bloodshed, lack of understanding of ourselves AND each other, persecution, false judgement, bigotry, animal cruelty, abuse of our environment, each other, - etc -etc... My post last before this one was taken ENTIRELY out of its intended context by Terri, as i was generally commenting on a need for a deeper global sense of caring, acceptance, loving attitude and communication amognst ALL people in general, as regards the current human condition, in something like a "desired" climate of greater fairness for all....
Sincerely,
Lovingly Always,
Annagirl
"This argument basically says that because my skin is lighter or darker than yours, or i speak a different language that you dont relate to from your own personal experience,
i am therefore not entitiled to be, or express myself in the manner which i most honestly desire to do under the very same inalienable rights of all beings to do so..."
No Anna, I do not believe you are properly interpeting the issue. You speak of things that are obviously apparent or confirmable, and are not justifiable in terms of human to human relations.
I was speaking of things which can not be confirmed and which are contraditory by full observation and knowledge of actual living and identity conditions. Within our own community, those that can produce the confirmation and are observable as accepting all conditons of acceptance by familiarity with thier lifestyle and relationships are overpowered by those who do not accept any need to confirm or even live by the standards of the group they wish to be accepted as. Those that identify as the sex they were born as and want to be recognised as such EXCEPT when at such time they wish to present otherwise as opposed to those that fully accept the conditions of living, identifying and relating as the opposite birth sex.
You are discussing an intirely different concept of human rights which while is an ideal, is totally seperate from the gender issue and the problems associated with it.
Terri
Hi Terri -
As usual, we fight like siblings....
I hope you really read what i posted last, as i had barely finished editing it before your next response... I really wish we had a couple days to just sit and talk and debate our views with one another - I like you, and think you are quite brilliant in your intelligence and expression both... Glad you are here, and glad you came back - dont ever back off from your convictions - they are the glue which obviously gives your backbone the incredible strength that it has...
Ive said all i have to here, and will only further agree to disagree with you and others where certain aspects of this issues are concerned...Cop out ? maybe....
Preserving good relations in a good community when i realize the strength of our convictions are equally deep and i dont like fights unless i'm sure i can win - - Yes...
Thanks,
Lovingly always,
Annagirl
Sorry Anna, having nothing constructive to do at the moment I have been sitting here at susans and so my replies have been quick. Please believe I am in no way advocating any spliting or fragmentation of the TG community, only saying that fragmentation is being caused in the community because of the different needs and concerns of it's members and the failure of the community as a whole to address within itself the issues in a realistic and responsible manner which would ultimately alieviate the pain and suffering for us all.
My stong convictions and willingness to express them are the very reason I have been staying away from such things such as politics, activism and other subgroup discussions. I stated I must get a grip and maintain that grip on myself when I returned to the board and I now believe myself to be in managable control of myself, though that is a subjective opinion. Many find my views and observations objectionable because I tend to point out differences in subgroups rather then sameness as well as strong feelings about what is and what is not.
It is a result of having waited to long before addressing my own issues and of having prolonged the transitional process longer then it needed to be in order to address personal family issues and problems of my own first, which has proven to be a mistake on my part. And as to transition itself, though I went into full identification years ago, it is only recently that I would say true transition, in the mental sense, has begun, despite the past appearances.
Such issues as politics and activism are much to personal to me and I have lived to long under the results of the present trend in such matters. Yes, I do take it seriously and as you have said before, can be "brutal" about it, but it is not ment as such, it is just frustration with the real life conditions imposed by the "one size fits all" mentality which has no application in real life and politics.
Anybody out there is fully invited and welcome to disagree with me at any time on any level, as it helps me to maintain a balance within myself about what is publically appropriate and what is not, regardless of what is discussed and believed in more private circles. If I can not successfully defend a particular point of view, then I must re-evaluate that view and determine why. If I find a particular view to be in error of the facts, I will publically retract myself, but if not then no opologies will be made for what I can factually see and experience to be the truth of the matter.
Terri
I am counting to 3000 before I make any replies to the previous posts. The reason being that I tend to be much more outspoken than either Terri or Sandi!
On second thought. Unconditional acceptance? Does that mean that I accept a person who is cd identified as a woman?
I cannot answer that question for you Leigh - you must answer that for yourself.
That is entirely up to you - it depends on the person, the situation, how they are asking to be identified or validated, how they claim to identify as themself, and, most importantly, however you feel you need to react or respond to them as your own personal preferences dictate - I dont think there is a "right" or "wrong" answer to that question, Leigh, it just depends on you and your own personal feelings on the subject - either way - you will be "right" for yourself, because that is the validity of exactly where you are as an individual, with that particular issue, at that specific moment in time, and your own life, feelings, and experiences -
If i met said "CD" in hypothetical question in a public place (or any other place for that matter),
i myself would prefer to allow them to be entitled to whatever level of respect for the human being that they are and what they must do in that moment to honestly and comfortably express themselves in that moment as i see them - as long as it IS their honest form of committed self expression [EDIT] 9:08am 7/18] "and they express themselves as such, or seem to desire to, or be honestly compelled to do so, by or for their own motivating factors, which i cannot and shall not intially judge, as i do not, at that point, suffieiciently know them in order to do so.... and they do so in what can be percieved as a genuine manner, until or unless proven otherwise, i will have to give them the benefit of the doubt, and continue to unconditionally extend these rights, respects , fairness, love, and all other considerations to them, again, until or unless they prove to be otherwise disingenous or destructive in any manner towards myself or others in any perceivable manner"
I would address them in the feminine nomer, if that is what they desired, just out of real decency, respect, and unconditional acceptance for them as a fellow human being and a person with valid needs as much as myself or anyone else in that moment i have met them - you just never know - they might decide in a couple years or a month from then that going all the way is going to be their course - or not - its just not my place to judge them and make that determination of whats right or wrong for them at that point - or any point for that matter -
I always feel it would be lovingly better to try to really connect, make valid, open, respectful, and loving relations, and get the best out of it, in that moment - no matter what my own personal preferences are - could end up being a close friendship or good personal or professional connection -one NEVER knows, wouldnt you agree ?
Well come on Leigh, I'm just waiting to hear the other shoe drop ......
Terri.... who is ROFLMAO
"I would address them in the feminine nomer, if that is what they desired, just out of real decency, respect, and unconditional acceptance for them as a fellow human being "
I would agree with that but with some personal internal reservations. Again, that "unconditional" thing. Though I may address them as such in respect for feelings and PC, that doesn't mean however I would really feel that way about them unless it were evident to me, and thats just the way it is. And so I guess you could say I would have tolerance, but acceptance is something I have to given from the heart, and if it isn't there it isn't there. That is a thing that has to be earned in order to be given.
Hell, I get no better, so I don't see the problem. I know of at least one place I could go where I may be considered Woman enough, but wouldn't be accepted on a ten foot pole. there is a lot more to acceptance then you seem to consider.
Terri
"they must do in that moment to honestly and comfortably express themselves in that moment as i see them - as long as it IS their honest form of committed self expression -" [/u]
" I would address them in the feminine nomer, if that is what they desired, just out of real decency, respect, and unconditional acceptance for them as a fellow human being and a person with valid needs as much as myself"
Thank you for proving my point. It appears that in order to have your "unconditional acceptance" they first have to pass a simple test of your judgement of them. fair enough, thank you.
Terri
"cultivate a Yeah So What mentality"
Funny you should say that Kitten. I have a tight busted yellow T shirt which across the bust says " WHATEVER, YEAH, RIGHT !"
Terri
Point taken -
However, i was being lazy and should have taken the time to clearly express my feelings in that context and did not do so properly...A truly critical error in judgement on my part in that moment...
Again, i will state innocent until proven otherwise - acceptance at face value with all due respect that any other living person should be able to recieve the benefit(s) of - I have taken the time to EDIT that posting to reflect my true feelings with little or no room for misunderstanding or entrapment by my own words, as you all so willing seem to wish to do in order to prove your point - I apologize for my lack of clarity and incomplete expression that should have been better qualified in the moment that i wrote it - Please see EDIT in that posting.
I honestly should have better clarified and qualified my specific statement as to my own personal feelings given that particular hypothetical moment/situation - it should not have been written so...
If that person or persons so chooses to or wishes to take the attendant risks of expressing themself in an opposite gender role, as least as far as presentation is concerned, then it is truly not up to me (or as i feel, anyone else for that matter) to judge the validity of their reasons or driving feelings or motivations to do so in that moment - ESPECIALLY if i do not know them personally up until that point in time - if, given time, they PROVE themselves to be negtive towards others, disingenous, dishonest, unstable, or otherwise destructive toward myself or others in any way that can be percieved after the fact, then i would judge and act accordingly,
Apparently, I AM quite different than you and many others in this regard...
My previous post contained what appears to be a qualifying judgement before the fact, when in fact this was a misstatement and an error of expression on my part - again - my apologies for seeming hypocritical and giving you what you think you needed to prove the very point against me...
I still hold to my original thinking and feeling of "you cant judge a book by its cover until its being or been read well enough to begin to get to know it" -
EDIT [11:27am, 7/18/05] I have been on the recieving end of that, just a few too many times in my life, to either any longer believe in, or wish to continue that cycle against others as i grow and go along in my life now - period...
Speaking for myself, in my life, I have been conditoned by pain of verbal, mental, physical, and emotional abuse, persecution, accusation, misunderstanding, lies, misperceptions, and deeply betraying deceptions even by people that i thought i knew and trusted, and even now still love -
Every day as i walk through life, and smile, warmly and lovingly meet and greet people every day that i have never met before, and take the attendant risks of keeping myself that open to all others, yes - it can still be difficult to fall prey to the level of almost natural judgementalism and conditioning and conditional acceptance that I, like so many others, especially in this culture, have had to grow up with and be programmed with - I do still believe, however, that it is possible for people to break through this unfortuante level of what i personally consider "negative" programming and discrimination.
Many is the time that my most sincere warmth, good feelings, outwardly loving nature, and true good intentions are mistaken and mispercieved by others as containing hidden agendas and being disingenous because of the strength of that which I seem to most naturally still wish to express, even after all the harsh pain and brutal misjudgement of much of my life by so many others -
Once, we were all Babies and young children, still in our most "unconditional" state - and for the most part, they (we, at that time) don't(didnt) care about color, race, sexual disposition, politics, culture, or any other limiting factors which would get in they way of unconditionally connecting with others and the world around us.
It had to be learned and conditioned into us. I still have the heart of that kind of innocent, naive, and unconditonal child beating within me, and personally, the more that i can do to remove all vestiges of that negatively oriented judgemental programming, the better off and the more effective i will be as a very honestly loving and deeply communicative person...Yes, this represents huge risks for additonal hurt and betrayal - but its part of who and what i am.
That i should deny that for you or anyone else, would be to utterly deny and betray the greatest part of my truly loving and accepting nature... I see others every day that will not respond to direct eye contact, smiles, and greetings and warmth from the heart - I see fear, hurt, anger, and judgement in their eyes, and it makes me ill to my core that everyone seems to be walking around so scared to genuinley connect that they can no longer even recognize someone that genuinely does so or wishes to...
I sickeningly believe deep in my own heart that we have long since left the miraculously loving and unconditionally accepting parts of our true POTENTIAL nature as human beings behind, and as a result, now you see the world as it is today - full of strife, hatred, bloodshed, bigotry, illness, abuse, persecution - the list of ills and evils goes on and on add infinitum...
I follow my intuitional gut instincts about connecting with others as often as possible, frequently putting all "logic" aside in order to "unconditonally" and fearlessly accept living "in the moment" and must therfore have faith in the power and nature of my own and others' unconditional love potential, and the miracle of God/the child in my/all of our hearts, my life, and my and others innate abilites to so act and therfore express this level of self truth, loving acceptance,and often, lack of judgement in order to more fully and "unconditionally" connect with others in this world, whereas maybe no one else has ever given them the time, effort and genuine unguardedness to do so......
I still act stupidly, make mistakes, say things out of anger and harsh judgement that Maybe i shoudlnt - but i always try my very best to be accountable for these errors, and will go to almost any length to correct any hurt or harm that i may have invariably caused or created towards another...
I accept the risks that this entails, and again, i must be willing to accept the consequences of that level of openness as well - and i do - regardless of what i have already been through at the hands and minds of others... If you betray me, hurt me, - I will never forget - i will and must forgive, but I will never forget...
Lovingly always,
Annagirl
Quote"we all just have to get to better place of unconditional acceptance and loving "
2999-3000
I love women. I date women. I have sex with women<
unconditional acceptance I do not do penis.
I can accept that a cd can self identify as a woman.
A cd has a penis.
All of a sudden my
unconditional acceptance has a major problem
hahahahhahaahahahahahah, Predicable as ever, but so NICE about it, well, there are stranger things in this world.
"I can accept that a cd can self identify as a woman"
gee, three thousand seems to be a magic number, to heck with that 10 stuff.....
Terri
But, just because Leigh is attracted to women doesn't mean she is attracted to all women. There may be other features that she would find unattractive on women as well, but that doesn't mean that she is denying that they are women.
At least that's the case for me. I will respect how anyone identifies him or herself, but that doesn't mean I have to sleep with a person just because she identifies as female. I find being very skinny a total turn-off. Skinny women are still women, but I doubt that I would be attracted to one.
Dennis
The key word is unconditional!
A rapist, an abuser, a terrorist! I think not!
The Goddess never made an unattractive women. Women just plain kick butt.
I had a client who sexually abused her own children. Women do sh*tty things too.
Are you saying, Leigh, that by saying "unconditional", you mean you would sleep with any woman? Or that someone you wouldn't sleep with is not a woman? I'm not sure I get it.
Dennis
I put no disclaimer on who was good or bad.
QuoteAre you saying, Leigh, that by saying "unconditional", you mean you would sleep with any woman?
They have to be breathing ;D Thats the prob with unconditional. Every decision (mine) that is made has conditions.
QuoteOr that someone you wouldn't sleep with is not a woman? I'm not sure I get it.
I would not, have not, will not consider a relationship with men other than friends at arms length.
"it is truly not up to me (or as i feel, anyone else for that matter) to judge the validity of their reasons or driving feelings or motivations to do so in that moment - ESPECIALLY if i do not know them personally up until that point in time - if, given time, they PROVE themselves to be negtive towards others, disingenous, dishonest, unstable, or otherwise destructive toward myself or others in any way that can be percieved after the fact, then i would judge and act accordingly,"
Now that statement I will agree with as most would, given a proper understandable presentation at the time of meeting . As to events afterward, Total agreement. You cant be friends with, or accept a person you know to have been dishonest or harmful, unless they can somehow prove it could never happen again,(HOW?) and then only on a kind of upfront probationary measure until one was convinced it could never happen again, but there would always be a measure of doubt, thus a trust issue which stands in the way of unconditional anything.
I'm a little sensitive toward that one as it is a truth I thought I lived by and totally understood, yet I was once false with a friend and then ethically had to tell that friend about my falsehood and have forever since been barred from any kind of personal relationship with that friend because I could no longer be trusted. No gain in life was worth that loss, but I accept the dishonor in that relationship because I know I was wrong and any reasons for it are nothing but excuses for something I could simply not have done and should not have done, for any reason or need, that is a condition of trust and can not be breached, not even once. To make matters worse, it occured to me after the falsehood was in progress that it all could have been avoided had I simply upfront explained what was going on at the time in the beginning of it and it would have been understood and all the consiquences avoided other then an a** chewing over even considering a falsehood in the first place for any reason at all. To late now for hindsight.
Terri
Please see my response, #35, dated today 7/18/05, for additional edits and further explanation..
Thanks,
Lovingly always,
Annagirl
WOW!
For the past few days we've been getting an artists solo show ready and I've only been able to pop in every now and then, so I'm not up to date on everyones posts. It's going to take me a while to catch up but from what I've read so far there has been a lot of very good discourse going on in my absense. I take it back, posts do not come here to die.
Thank you all for your fantastic participation in this discussion.
ooo xxx
Cassie
Quote(and I question the authority of whether the USA has the lawful authority to legislate based on gender or gender identity).
they no doubt have the legal authority, remember the founding fathers wrote
"All men are created equal" not all people or all persons, in fact it meant all
"white men of some means" at the time it was written.
it is the moral authority that is lacking...............
beth
I think something else comes into play personally.
We are adapt at hiding who we are.
I can't speak for anyone else of course but I have learned from really early not to draw attention to myself. I learned to hide who I am and adapt myself to my surroundings.
Activism involves adapting your surroundings to you / those like you / you're social group.
I think it is in our very nature, because of how we feel, we automatically try and hide, it's easier, it's something we understand, and it's something we are good at.
It all goes back to the 1st grade playground and trying to avoid being different, for me at least.
I am not saying this is the way it *should* be, and I am not saying that this is a good way to be. I am just saying that it's probably why many of us, in our situation, are not very politically active.
Jessica