I bought the big water bottles and left them in my room, for the city tours I bought a 0.75l bottle with a flip cap and just refilled it always at the hotel or at public drinking supplies if available. I found it handy to have it always in my handbagand have fast access to it in case I was feeling like I might have to cough.
We went to a casino (my mom has a casino radar, everywhere we go, she has to find one) and they gave us free bottled water. So I took one and refilled it. It was good enough to keep in my purse. The nice thing is that there was free water in some places like the national museum of Korea so I was able to refill it.
Quote from: Dana88 on July 20, 2015, 09:56:01 PM
Agreed. I just got back from Seoul on Saturday. The hotel I was at was right by a 7/11. Every morning when my brother and I left the hotel we'd stop in and I'd get a two liter bottle of water, and every night on our way back I'd stop in and get another. One and a half weeks in and I've managed to only cough twice. Not clearing my throat has been a little more difficult but whenever I've done it I've done it lightly. But I found with the meds they give you, plus the water, half the time I'd just breathe up whatever was stuck in my chest without effort.
I was told the water from the tap was OK to drink in Korea (a friend of mine researched). Isn't it?
Sarah
I did not trust the water from the tap. I think it was chlorinated. I did not want to risk ANYTHING post op. But what I noticed, most of the big cheap bottled water they sell has way too low mineral contents. I ended up feeling like I could drink the stuff by the liters and still need more. Eventually we bought some sea salt and added a small spoon to each bottle to make it more taste like bottled water at home.
Chlorinated water is the norm for me. In fact I like it more chlorinated rather than less.
It wasn't that I didn't trust the tap water, it's just that bottled water was so convenient, and cheap. I trust that a highly developed country like South Korea would have clean water.
Maybe in Europe it's different but the mineral content for me was just fine. I'm on a low sodium diet anyway.
Quote from: Teslagirl on July 22, 2015, 09:35:55 AM
I was told the water from the tap was OK to drink in Korea (a friend of mine researched). Isn't it?
Sarah
It is an official statement, but I have never seen anybody drink tap water here in S. Korea.
I live in Jeju island, which is famous for producing volcanic clean water. Yes. Initially I drank tap water in my office. Theoretically the water should be pristine, but I just worry about the pipelines.
You can find and refill your bottle with water from any water purifier located in airports, subway stations, banks, restaurants, and various public places. Purifiers are usually located near the public bathroom. In Korea, they do not charge for water and public bathroom. All are free. (P.S. I tend to be upset when they charge US$ 1 or 2 for using public bathroom in some European and N. American cities).
http://www.9korea.com/articles/should-you-drink-tap-water-in-korea/
Water purifiers in public place look like this:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ec21.com%2Fimage%2Fsaywood%2Fkoimg_GC00055886_CA00055909%2F%25EC%2595%2584%25EC%259D%25B4%25EC%258A%25A4%25EC%25BA%25A1_%25EB%2583%2589%25EC%2598%25A8%25EC%25A0%2595%25EC%2588%2598%25EA%25B8%25B0.jpg&hash=a0f8103be8e664f96557aefb077b3e8c21d589e0)
barbie~~
On my flight on Korean Air they gave me a bottle of jeju water. It was decent. Different taste to Poland Spring. Decent nonetheless.
I saw the purifier in NMK. I refilled my bottle a few times. Water tasted good.
I've only seen pay toilets in a few places in the USA. I haven't paid to use a restroom in forever.
Hello everyone.
I had my surgery and I have been getting lots of advice from iKate, Anjaq, Amy Berlin and Sunhawk, but I am really scared I might have done something to the surgery. I sent this to Jessie:
"Dear Jessie.
I'm worried. I had some ice cream thinking that it would help my throat and instead I think it caused me to develop throat mucus. This made me involuntarily cough several times and I was up all night trying to get the mucus out without coughing further. I drank lots and lots of water, but this morning I am worried I might have damaged the operation. Some phlegm (mucus) came up twice and it was slightly coloured pink, like there was a little blood in it.
I do not have mucus in my throat at the moment and am not drinking or eating dairy products. I don't know what I'll do if I have damaged the operation, and I am very scared.
Have you ever seen anyone who did the same? What should I do? Will Dr Kim see me before Tuesday to check if the operation is alright?
Please reply as soon as you can. I am so worried.
Thank you,
Sarah."
Now I'm starting to wonder if I'll go home with the sutures ruptured, and unable to do anything to fix it. I am now seriously worried, and much more than when I was mailing my friends mentioned above. Does anyone know of a similar situation and did Dr Kim see anyone early to check? Is it possible to have a revision later (though I'll have to save again). So scared.
I had one speck of blood in mine 2 days after and the post op exam was fine. I did not cough violently but I did clear my throat very gently.
Either way it's a fresh wound and there may be blood here and there. I know you're worried but according to Jessie and dr Kim if you rupture the suture you will definitely know. I have diabetes so I'm supposed to be more prone to bleeding and slower clotting/healing. But I'm well managed so I'm actually close to normal now.
Dr Kim checked me 6 days post op but that was the usual follow up. Everything was fine.
Jessie should have given you her cell phone number so if it is really an emergency I guess you can text her of have someone talk to her.
And please take the synatura 3x/day religiously. It helped me a lot.
Anjaq posted that post surgically she coughed so much after surgery that she turned blue. I had Dr Haben do mine and he said Accidents will happen but you should control everything you can. I suspect Dr. Kims surgery is near that level but he is doing something more that Dr Haben does so it's possible there is more open wound area. At this point because it was one somewhat small event, I don't think you did major damage. You might have opened a scab but I think the surgery is still in place. You can check with Dr Kim's office but don't be to surprised if he isn't concerned.
Quote from: iKate on July 22, 2015, 09:44:36 PM
I had one speck of blood in mine 2 days after and the post op exam was fine. I did not cough violently but I did clear my throat very gently.
Either way it's a fresh wound and there may be blood here and there. I know you're worried but according to Jessie and dr Kim if you rupture the suture you will definitely know. I have diabetes so I'm supposed to be more prone to bleeding and slower clotting/healing. But I'm well managed so I'm actually close to normal now.
Dr Kim checked me 6 days post op but that was the usual follow up. Everything was fine.
Jessie should have given you her cell phone number so if it is really an emergency I guess you can text her of have someone talk to her.
And please take the synatura 3x/day religiously. It helped me a lot.
Thanks Kate, I will. Jessie replied with some soothing words. She said:
"Dear Telsagirl
Hi, Telsagirl :)
You are going to have lots of phlegms and cough symptom after VFS surgery so please don't worry.
If the surgical site was damaged then you will have lots of blood clots coming with a severe throat pain.
Coughing several times should be fine :) Just avoid sound as much as you can.
You can have a little bit of blood in your phglems as well for few days after VFS surgery.
Please keep drinking lots of water and take the medication on time 3 times a day after meal.
Please let me know if you have further inquiries."
She doesn't seem too worried so I'll just hope for the best. I will give serious advice to others taking this route though,
stay away from dairy products, they promote the production of mucus and according to my limited research, soya is worse, and this causes involuntary throat clearing if it builds up enough. I just couldn't help myself. If you want something cold, try sorbet. The man in the shop below Phil House sells Mango sorbet.
Quote from: Dena on July 22, 2015, 10:01:50 PM
Anjaq posted that post surgically she coughed so much after surgery that she turned blue. I had Dr Haben do mine and he said Accidents will happen but you should control everything you can. I suspect Dr. Kims surgery is near that level but he is doing something more that Dr Haben does so it's possible there is more open wound area. At this point because it was one somewhat small event, I don't think you did major damage. You might have opened a scab but I think the surgery is still in place. You can check with Dr Kim's office but don't be to surprised if he isn't concerned.
Thanks Dena. I'm not sure exactly how Dr Haben's procedure differs from Dr Kim's but I know Dr Kim has tried to correct a fairly severe asymmetry that I had as well as suturing the folds together so it might be a more complex surgery for me.
Hello all.
Well it's 8:00pm here and its gotten really dark and there is a lot of heavy rain. Even with all the rain, it doesn't get any fresher; it's just as humid as it was before.
I was going to go out looking for for a friendly restaurant as at the moment I'm surviving on the jam and toast they provide here in the morning, and some snacks I bought from the little shop below Phil House. Maybe if it dries up a bit I'll go out, but this weather looks set for a while.
Does anyone who has been to Phil House have any recommendations for nice restaurants nearby? I'm not very adventurous, and being British, I don't like to stand out much (anything to avoid being embarassed). This is certainly not a multicultural country and I think I blend in like a pink rhinocerous. I love Chinese food but will try anything, so Korean would be great as well. I really think I've got to start eating better food. Processed snack food is not a great idea when you're recovering from surgery. I feel the need for vegetables as well. Any suggestions would be very helpful. At the moment I feel like Bambi in the forest and I'm just hiding away.
Quote from: barbie on July 22, 2015, 03:27:30 PM
It is an official statement, but I have never seen anybody drink tap water here in S. Korea.
I live in Jeju island, which is famous for producing volcanic clean water. Yes. Initially I drank tap water in my office. Theoretically the water should be pristine, but I just worry about the pipelines.
You can find and refill your bottle with water from any water purifier located in airports, subway stations, banks, restaurants, and various public places. Purifiers are usually located near the public bathroom. In Korea, they do not charge for water and public bathroom. All are free. (P.S. I tend to be upset when they charge US$ 1 or 2 for using public bathroom in some European and N. American cities).
http://www.9korea.com/articles/should-you-drink-tap-water-in-korea/
Water purifiers in public place look like this:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ec21.com%2Fimage%2Fsaywood%2Fkoimg_GC00055886_CA00055909%2F%25EC%2595%2584%25EC%259D%25B4%25EC%258A%25A4%25EC%25BA%25A1_%25EB%2583%2589%25EC%2598%25A8%25EC%25A0%2595%25EC%2588%2598%25EA%25B8%25B0.jpg&hash=a0f8103be8e664f96557aefb077b3e8c21d589e0)
barbie~~
Thanks for the information about water Barbi. I was told that tap water was fine here, but maybe I should start buying bottled water. I don't get about much so don't see these water coolers. The farthest I've been is Yeson and back in a taxi a couple of times and the street outside Phil House.
It depends on what you're looking for.
If you're looking for fast food, Lotteria is across the main road. It's fairly decent. They have a similar menu to McDonald's and they have breakfast items. Otherwise I survived on chain fast food places like KFC and Pizza Hut.
As for dairy products I did not know that. I had a glass of milk every morning and it seemed to help. But I guess everyone reacts differently.
Quote from: Teslagirl on July 23, 2015, 05:51:32 AM
Thanks Dena. I'm not sure exactly how Dr Haben's procedure differs from Dr Kim's but I know Dr Kim has tried to correct a fairly severe asymmetry that I had as well as suturing the folds together so it might be a more complex surgery for me.
Katie has just reported in with her Dr Haben surgery and this is the first time I heard of a month of voice rest. it seems she had extensive voice damage that resulted in a surgery much like what Dr Kim is doing. Mostly I think the difference is the limited number of reports we have on Dr Haben and the fact that Haben uses a suture that dissolves as compared to the permanent ones Dr Kim uses. The more I am learning, it seems that the doctors compare pretty well but I still have no regrets about using Dr Haben and would do so again. Dr Haben also offers the Triple that isn't available from Dr Kim and for some people, this may be the only solution to their voice issues.
Quote from: iKate on July 22, 2015, 09:01:24 PM
On my flight on Korean Air they gave me a bottle of jeju water. It was decent. Different taste to Poland Spring. Decent nonetheless.
I saw the purifier in NMK. I refilled my bottle a few times. Water tasted good.
I've only seen pay toilets in a few places in the USA. I haven't paid to use a restroom in forever.
Britain is full of pay toilets. It's cheap, but still outrageous. They'll make money from anything.
Regarding ruptured sutures - the description Jessie gave for that case is a sharp and persistent pain int he throat and lots of blood coughing - you would definitely know. all else is not to worry about too much. Some blood comes out - its notmal and actually its the reason why Botox is given on day 7. Dr Kim told me that otherwise some of the Botox would leave with blood and other wound stuff from the wound and thus be lost. So some bleeding is normal as well
I took diary products very well, They were building some mucous that is right, but for me it was actually a positive because it was not so dry anymore. I had to do some silent coughs at times though, but I regarded those as being harmless.
I can recommend 2 food places that have more western style foods - one is diagonally across the main street if you go to the subway - so not the street right across the main street but the next to the left - there is some little place there that sells fried chicken in all shapes - you can get KFC-style fried chicken there. Pizza Hut and therelike is crazy expensive. The other restaurant we tried was to the right on main street and then to the right again on the next big crossing. Maybe 200m or so behind a shop that sells pet dogs. They had basically fried fish, chicken, something like schnitzel - with rice, sauce and some veggies. Looked pretty European to me ;) so I was bored by it but it was ok. Phil House also has a restaurant recommendation list with map and average prices and all sorts of info at the reception desk - just take a look at that one.
It's been a month. I'm talking now.
Wow, what a huge difference... I mean like mind blowing.
And my voice doesn't really get tired. I just feel myself making a bit more effort to talk. I'm not pushing it much over the next month, but people already like it. I am keeping it low though. Not whispering but not loud either. It's very breathy at this point but I expect that to improve.
So far I'm happy, but I know it will get better. Praat measured 194Hz just normal speaking. The voice passes on the phone.
Regarding resonance - whatever Dr Kim did seems to have affected resonance too as everything is now head voice by default.
Quote from: iKate on July 24, 2015, 10:41:23 AM
It's been a month. I'm talking now.
Wow, what a huge difference... I mean like mind blowing.
And my voice doesn't really get tired. I just feel myself making a bit more effort to talk. I'm not pushing it much over the next month, but people already like it. I am keeping it low though. Not whispering but not loud either. It's very breathy at this point but I expect that to improve.
So far I'm happy, but I know it will get better. Praat measured 194Hz just normal speaking. The voice passes on the phone.
Regarding resonance - whatever Dr Kim did seems to have affected resonance too as everything is now head voice by default.
Wow, congrats! The fact that you are this pleased after only a month is great :)
Quote from: iKate on July 24, 2015, 10:41:23 AM
It's been a month. I'm talking now.
Wow, what a huge difference... I mean like mind blowing.
And my voice doesn't really get tired. I just feel myself making a bit more effort to talk. I'm not pushing it much over the next month, but people already like it. I am keeping it low though. Not whispering but not loud either. It's very breathy at this point but I expect that to improve.
So far I'm happy, but I know it will get better. Praat measured 194Hz just normal speaking. The voice passes on the phone.
Regarding resonance - whatever Dr Kim did seems to have affected resonance too as everything is now head voice by default.
I'm so pleased for you Kate; it's fantastic that you can hear some difference already and it looks like you will be one of the successes.
I'm not so sure I will be though, Every time I've heard the post-op voices of older women like me, I haven't been that impressed, and from what I've heard of myself (those inadvertent occasions), I didn't hear much difference. You were very controlled over coughing and so on, but me, not so much, and even if not a rupture, I'm wondering if these few events make the final result less than optimal? Anja said something similar. I'll just have to wait and see.
Oh whilst I'm here I've been talking to The ID Hospital not far from Yeson. They do amazing things with faces and even though I went to Dr Ousterhout, I'm still not totally happy. Different topic I know. I'll transfer it to somewhere more suitable if I have more to say. Now all I have to do is win the lottery! And to think none of this would have been necessary if I'd had access to blockers when I was young, sigh...
Quote from: iKate on July 24, 2015, 10:41:23 AM
It's been a month. I'm talking now.
Wow, what a huge difference... I mean like mind blowing.
And my voice doesn't really get tired. I just feel myself making a bit more effort to talk. I'm not pushing it much over the next month, but people already like it. I am keeping it low though. Not whispering but not loud either. It's very breathy at this point but I expect that to improve.
So far I'm happy, but I know it will get better. Praat measured 194Hz just normal speaking. The voice passes on the phone.
Regarding resonance - whatever Dr Kim did seems to have affected resonance too as everything is now head voice by default.
That's truly amazing Kate, congrats.
Paige :)
The rainbow passage is so overplayed.
So I present to you, "Comma gets a cure."
http://vocaroo.com/i/s19ABJAiozfw
This is absolutely nothing but natural phonation. No resonance change or anything either. Just opening my mouth and talking.
Thats amazing, Kate. I am happy for you. This is really great for just the first weeks. And yes - Dr Kim definitely changes something about the timbre - not really the resonance but the way the voice sounds, with his surgery. To me this is the main benefit of the surgery now, even more noticeable to myself than the pitch change that occured.
I think one key thing is to just speak naturally without doing anything. Those who have had a longer time of using a trained voice like me seem to have trouble to "let go", even if that works better than trying to "do something".
I guess age does play a role, too at least in respect to the pitch increase. Chances of getting to the target 75 Hz increase seem to be somewhat less if you are older, but then the 75 Hz is an average - some get 100 Hz increase and others just 40. The change in timbre seems to happen in most of the cases though I believe, although there were those complaining about sounding male even at a high pitch after the VFS, so I am not sure about that.
But Kate - I would not say you are in head voice all the time - its more like your chest voice sounds more similar to the head voice, I believe - or don't you have any noticeable transition zone or "break" or "passagio" anymore now?
Quote from: iKate on July 24, 2015, 03:02:38 PM
The rainbow passage is so overplayed.
So I present to you, "Comma gets a cure."
http://vocaroo.com/i/s19ABJAiozfw
This is absolutely nothing but natural phonation. No resonance change or anything either. Just opening my mouth and talking.
Sounding great!
Quote from: anjaq on July 24, 2015, 03:42:41 PM
Thats amazing, Kate. I am happy for you. This is really great for the first few weeks.
Thanks!
QuoteBut Kate - I would not say you are in head voice all the time - its more like your chest voice sounds more similar to the head voice, I believe - or don't you have any noticeable transition zone or "break" or "passagio" anymore now?
Good question.
The chest vibration is a lot less now. I suppose I do have a slight chest voice still.
I haven't played around much with it. I mean I want to go slow and not damage anything. Month 2 should be better? I am contacting a speech language pathologist who will help me with resonance.
I don't know if I have a break as I haven't gone to much upper ranges. I can't really do falsetto. It just sounds really really high, the limited amount I tried.
I also should mention that I did undergo speech training before but not for feminization. Rather it's for public speaking and radio/TV. So I've learned to project my voice. I have to unlearn that. Where I work (at a TV news station) some of the talent has learned that too. You have to sound authoritative when reporting the news. Some of the women have a learned chest voice. I have to now reduce that for me. Imagine that. :)
While it sounds a bit higher to me than 194 hz, I don't think you will need to play with the chest voice. It stays in the comfort zone of mid range female and stays out of the squeaky high voice that you don't want to use on the air. I am not sure if it's the fact you are reading or still getting used to the new voice but it could use just a little more inflection. Don't add more than a little because you almost have enough already.
The voice you have would never be gendered male, has female speech patterns and for the second day of using it, it is very good.
Quote from: iKate on July 24, 2015, 07:07:01 PM
Thanks!
Good question.
The chest vibration is a lot less now. I suppose I do have a slight chest voice still.
I haven't played around much with it. I mean I want to go slow and not damage anything. Month 2 should be better? I am contacting a speech language pathologist who will help me with resonance.
I don't know if I have a break as I haven't gone to much upper ranges. I can't really do falsetto. It just sounds really really high, the limited amount I tried.
I also should mention that I did undergo speech training before but not for feminization. Rather it's for public speaking and radio/TV. So I've learned to project my voice. I have to unlearn that. Where I work (at a TV news station) some of the talent has learned that too. You have to sound authoritative when reporting the news. Some of the women have a learned chest voice. I have to now reduce that for me. Imagine that. :)
I agree with Anja that you are definitely in chest voice and not in head voice- and that is a GOOD thing. I think people sometimes confuse head and chest resonance with head and chest voice. Chest voice is the voice that everyone regardless of gender uses to speak. There are rare exceptions but it is considered abnormal for anyone to speak in head voice. Women have somewhat less of a tonal difference between head and chest voice and indeed it seems like this is what is happening to you: your chest voice is sitting higher and has more high overtones which gives it a more "heady" timbre. Hope that wasn't too confusing and congrats again on your results so far!
Quote from: kwala on July 24, 2015, 07:25:30 PM
I agree with Anja that you are definitely in chest voice and not in head voice- and that is a GOOD thing. I think people sometimes confuse head and chest resonance with head and chest voice. Chest voice is the voice that everyone regardless of gender uses to speak. There are rare exceptions but it is considered abnormal for anyone to speak in head voice. Women have somewhat less of a tonal difference between head and chest voice and indeed it seems like this is what is happening to you: your chest voice is sitting higher and has more high overtones which gives it a more "heady" timbre. Hope that wasn't too confusing and congrats again on your results so far!
Sorry to disagree with you but the head voice is what women normally use. I have already proven it here by lower the voices of FTMs by putting them in the chest voice. A great example of this is Karen Carpenter. Her speaking voice was head but she moved to the chest voice to sing in the lower range.
I guess it depends. I've heard feminine sounding women who use either head or chest. My wife uses chest voice meanwhile I have female colleagues who you can clearly tell it's head voice. The difference is they are born Americans. She is not. She's from the Caribbean just like I am.
At month 2 I start the yeson exercises but i think I will see a speech therapist to get the most out of it.
I'm stoked that I'm getting good results this early though!
Quote from: Dena on July 24, 2015, 07:21:30 PM
While it sounds a bit higher to me than 194 hz, I don't think you will need to play with the chest voice. It stays in the comfort zone of mid range female and stays out of the squeaky high voice that you don't want to use on the air. I am not sure if it's the fact you are reading or still getting used to the new voice but it could use just a little more inflection. Don't add more than a little because you almost have enough already.
The voice you have would never be gendered male, has female speech patterns and for the second day of using it, it is very good.
It's a bit of both. I will try to record some natural speech rather than reading. I do tend to dip down a bit sometimes. I need to work on that. High range is also kind of croaky and also inaccessible at the moment. So I'm not really bothering with it until maybe next week or week after.
Quote from: Dena on July 24, 2015, 07:33:09 PM
Sorry to disagree with you but the head voice is what women normally use. I have already proven it here by lower the voices of FTMs by putting them in the chest voice. A great example of this is Karen Carpenter. Her speaking voice was head but she moved to the chest voice to sing in the lower range.
Sorry, but this is just plain wrong. Chest, or modal voice is the go-to register for everyone who speaks, it is EXTREMELY rare for any person of any gender to have head voice as a part of their normal speaking range. Ask any vocal or singing coach and they will tell you the same. I happen to be a huge fan of Karen Carpenter and she most definitely does NOT speak in head voice and when asked about her singingl range, she and Richard often used to say that although she could sing higher, the "money was in the basement."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCD4E-chJ_U This is a good example of the different voice registers. Notice when she starts that although her fundamental speaking frequency is quite high and bright, it is still in her chest voice. When she transitions upward into head voice, the difference is clearly noticeable.
Quote from: iKate on July 24, 2015, 03:02:38 PM
The rainbow passage is so overplayed.
So I present to you, "Comma gets a cure."
http://vocaroo.com/i/s19ABJAiozfw
This is absolutely nothing but natural phonation. No resonance change or anything either. Just opening my mouth and talking.
That's absolutely fantastic Kate; there's nothing male there at all! Did you ever post your pre-op voice? It would be great to compare. Wow, you must be so happy with Dr Kim's work, and I think it can only get better as it settles down and as you get assistance from the voice and language therapist. What did they say at work? Are you out to them? You've been so helpful to all of us with advice and reassurance; you really deserve this great result.
Ps: come and work in the UK. The holidays are much better here than the US!
Quote from: Teslagirl on July 24, 2015, 09:36:52 PM
That's absolutely fantastic Kate; there's nothing male there at all! Did you ever post your pre-op voice? It would be great to compare. Wow, you must be so happy with Dr Kim's work, and I think it can only get better as it settles down and as you get assistance from the voice and language therapist. What did they say at work? Are you out to them? You've been so helpful to all of us with advice and reassurance; you really deserve this great result.
Ps: come and work in the UK. The holidays are much better here than the US!
Hahaha I wish! I actually considered it and as a commonwealth citizen I would fit right in. :)
I have my preop voice but I am not comfortable making that public much. I can send it privately upon request.
At work I am 100% fully out as I transitioned on the job. People have been just amazed. Everything from utter silence of disbelief to WOW. That said I know it needs work and time but I think I have a good foundation to build on.
Thank you very much, I really hope you get a result you were looking for as well!
Quote from: Teslagirl on July 23, 2015, 06:07:29 AM
Thanks for the information about water Barbi. I was told that tap water was fine here, but maybe I should start buying bottled water. I don't get about much so don't see these water coolers. The farthest I've been is Yeson and back in a taxi a couple of times and the street outside Phil House.
I guess you can find a water purifier within Phil House. Ask the staff about the location.
Yes. Heavy rain in Seoul area until Sunday. The drought has been server during the past several months there, and everybody eagerly longed for heavy rain, and finally it arrived yesterday. Tomorrow, Hurricane Halola, which was changed into a typhoon, will pass here Jeju island, and I guess you will have some more rain on Tuesday morning.
barbie~~
Quote from: barbie on July 24, 2015, 10:05:20 PM
I guess you can find a water purifier within Phil House. Ask the staff about the location.
Yes. Heavy rain in Seoul area until Sunday. The drought has been server during the past several months there, and everybody eagerly longed for heavy rain, and finally it arrived yesterday. Tomorrow, Hurricane Halola, which was changed into a typhoon, will pass here Jeju island, and I guess you will have some more rain on Tuesday morning.
barbie~~
Yes it was
very wet here last night. EEk! A hurricane is on it's way to you? Please stay safe!!
I'm going out to see the children's park whilst it's still dry. I went up on the roof and the view was fantastic, with two enormous mountains nearby and a huge skyscraper on the horizon. I really am not in Kansas anymore (not that I've been to Kansas or anything!!)
Quote from: anjaq on July 24, 2015, 03:42:41 PM
But Kate - I would not say you are in head voice all the time - its more like your chest voice sounds more similar to the head voice, I believe - or don't you have any noticeable transition zone or "break" or "passagio" anymore now?
I mentioned head and chest resonance to Dr Kim and he was very dismissive. "Rubbish" he said. Is there a difference between head and chest voice and head and chest
resonance?
Quote from: Teslagirl on July 24, 2015, 10:41:07 PM
I mentioned head and chest resonance to Dr Kim and he was very dismissive. "Rubbish" he said. Is there a difference between head and chest voice and head and chest resonance?
Yes. Head and chest voice are the most obvious. Basically, your lower more comfortable speaking voice is your chest voice. The point at which your voice "cracks" and beyond is your head voice. For a male voice box, the difference is very obvious. The timbre difference is less obvious in female voices, but there is still a breaking point. Resonance is more complicated. It can vary to different degrees. I can hold a note in pure chest voice and force almost all of the vibrations into my chest or I can lighten it and lift some of the vibrations into my neck or head. It will be the same pitch, but the timbre is different. Likewise, in head voice, you can darken your sound by moving some of the resonance into a lower space and making it sound less breathy and falsetto-ish. So, it is possible to sing and speak in chest voice but add some head resonance and likewise with singing or speaking in headvoice but adding some chest resonance. But for normal speech, chest voice is always the go-to. In most cases, people who speak using only head voice do so because of a speech impediment or vocal issue. If you saw somebody on the street you knew and called out, "Hey, you!" I can pretty much guarantee that you would do it in chest voice whether you are a male or a female.
If you want to hear the difference between head and chest voice, just listen to this Mariah Carey song. She switches between both registers so often it almost sounds like two different people singing the song in parts.
When the voice has more core to the sound she is in chest voice and when it sounds super breathy, she is in head.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRNdmkH8zrI
Quote from: Teslagirl on July 24, 2015, 10:14:00 PM
with two enormous mountains nearby
Mountains in Korea are very steep, making them look far higher than their actual height.
The heights of those mountains are just about 300-400 m (ca. 1000 feet).
Almost all of the mountains in S. Korea are bustling with climbers everyday.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.seoul.co.kr%2Fimg%2Fupload%2F2013%2F10%2F03%2FSSI_20131003190910_V.jpg&hash=1f72a928965ead7b7ac76e90df1acde708fcddd6)
barbie~~
I think the whole chest and head resonance/voice thing is a bit complicated - same as the term falsetto.
Basically Dr Kim recognizes there are changes in resonance that need to happen to feminize the voice. His Website states that
QuoteAlso, the tone quality of the voice and resonance of the sound can be changed into a more female voice by changing the shape of the pharyngeal cavity through the patients' motivation, and by attending voice clinics and voice rehabilitations.
- which means to change resonance. He just does not call it chest and head resonance but sometimes seems to speak about different phonation patterns.
Head voice and chest voice is something different , it is just two of the main registers for speaking that are connected to pitch - at some pitch, the voice changes quality in a noticeable way, often associated with a "passagio" or even a voice break. This is not changed by surgery, it has more to do with the muscles interacting with each other. The "chest voice" is the normal speaking voice. It goes from your lower-mid range through most of your regular speaking pitches. The head voice is the singing voice - it starts at higher pitches, D4 for me, G4 for others. The quality of both voices can be blended, mixed or pushed into the other pitch area to a degree, giving a soft transition.
According to my SLT her transition pitch is also at a D4 and for her, the head voice is part of speaking, but only in some short phases. So for example the classical "Oh my god" expression may start out with a very high pitch and with head voice and then drop into regular speaking pitch and chest voice. So this is kind of fascinationg because it means that many women will use a mix of chest and head voice while speaking with voice melody and intonations, while men will not do that, since their speaking pitch is much more below that transition pitch and their voices are usually more monotonous.
Quote from: iKate on July 24, 2015, 09:40:11 PM
I have my preop voice but I am not comfortable making that public much. I can send it privately upon request.
Ah, screw it. I changed my mind. Here is my pre-op audition for Dr Kim. This is the regular untrained voice. This actually is around 133Hz but after I went full time I was up to about ~155Hz regular speaking voice.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1ZS7zGTO6IM
The "trained" (strained) voice I don't have a recording for, at least not on this computer. I have to dig around my workstation in the home office as I recorded it there. I never got the files from Dr Kim, just the video and stroboscopy of my vocal folds. I'll ask them if they have the recordings they took there. They took a lot.
And this is the "trained" voice which passed maybe 40-50% of the time. Actually, I'm sure people were being nice to me and it did not pass.
You can hear a lot of lower tone in it which frustrated me to no end.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1SnLVbc4Ixi
This next one I recorded in Korea the day before the op. It was at night, just before I went to bed. No raising of voice at all. I actually recorded this for my kids as they love me reading to them. (It's a video but this is the audio portion). This is with the Mac's built in mic.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s144FN0fNwee
You can get an idea of the kind of intonation that women from Trinidad and Tobago use. I still have to re-learn that accent because if I have any hope of passing there I can't sound like an American. Mrs Bissessar is a friend of my family, and in 2006 I had told her actually predicted that she would win her election. I am so proud of Aunty Kamla. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEBDpcDcbCc
And this is a younger voice, a news announcer. Madam PM is also in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urWUQDTXJL4
This is Jowelle, a (non-stealth, out and proud) trans woman from Trinidad. She transitioned at 19. She says she really doesn't do anything with her voice and she hasn't had any surgery other than SRS. You can see that she sounds feminine even though her pitch isn't super high.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnEYgINmK3o
The change to your pre OP recordings is really amazing. You have a good chance to be asked by Dr Kim to show your videos in the consultations :P ;) - Next to Jennys videos he always shows. Thats such a massive change.
Quote from: iKate on July 25, 2015, 07:10:20 AM
You can get an idea of the kind of intonation that women from Trinidad and Tobago use. I still have to re-learn that accent because if I have any hope of passing there I can't sound like an American. Mrs Bissessar is a friend of my family, and in 2006 I had told her actually predicted that she would win her election. I am so proud of Aunty Kamla. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEBDpcDcbCc
Whaaat! Your Aunty is Prime Minister of Trinidad and Tobago???!!!! That's astonishing. Am I dreaming all this? It's so surreal, and wonderful!!
Your new voice is so radically different from your old voice by the way!!! Even more impressive now I've heard your old voice!!!
No, she's a close friend of the family. As a mark of respect we call her "aunty." But yes, we are close, and were close for a long time along with my local MP who I'm also close with (I worked out of his office for a while and did exit polls for elections and other stuff for the party.) his brother is a pundit who did my grandfather's funeral rites. Haven't been there since 06 though.
Kate's wonderful result just confirms for me what I've been thinking for a while since my own experience here started. If you're going to Yeson, don't make any coughing, throat clearing or talking mistakes. Kate didn't, and has a brilliant voice. I made quite a few mistakes, and from what i heard, my voice has reverted. The first time I made a mistake it seemed really high pitched. Not any more. I think I may have loosened the sutures or something. I'm not going to dwell on it; in the few days I have left here, I'm just going to enjoy this new culture as an experience. Maybe I can come back for a revision sometime (if Dr Kim does them). Please learn from me.
Umm don't think so. I also managed to actually try to shout at my son for disrupting a restaurant. I was fine. Right now there is no change for you because your folds are still swollen and your brain is trying to figure out what just happened. When you start talking your brain will try to use the lower pitches, give up and then seek higher ones. At least that's how I felt it.
But yes, do enjoy Korea and work on those smartphone thumbs. I used a text to speech app to get me through the month of silence.
And don't even try to talk. Do your best not to. It's hard and I was worried just like you but really you'll be fine.
Thank you for posting your old voice. I wasn't going to ask you for them but they answer a little question for me. You had a very feminine speech pattern before surgery and the only real issue you had was the lower pitch. The surgery give you the pitch and combined with your natural feminine speech pattern, you sounded right with the first word in the new voice. I am not really sure you need speech therapy unless you want to touch the voice up a little.
Quote from: Dena on July 25, 2015, 08:54:56 AM
Thank you for posting your old voice. I wasn't going to ask you for them but they answer a little question for me. You had a very feminine speech pattern before surgery and the only real issue you had was the lower pitch. The surgery give you the pitch and combined with your natural feminine speech pattern, you sounded right with the first word in the new voice. I am not really sure you need speech therapy unless you want to touch the voice up a little.
I guess so. I've been saying that but now I realize it's true. After month 2 I'm going to evaluate where I am and see if I do need therapy. The yeson exercises by themselves are good so I could start with that as they are free.
Wow Kate, I just listened to your voice and you sound great! I wish you luck with the rest of your recovery. I can imagine how much this will improve your confidence, I know it would do a lot for me.
Quote from: Lynne on July 25, 2015, 01:54:59 PM
Wow Kate, I just listened to your voice and you sound great! I wish you luck with the rest of your recovery. I can imagine how much this will improve your confidence, I know it would do a lot for me.
Like you would not believe. Even basic things like filling up gas (NJ is all full serve) is not an ordeal anymore. I can't wait until month 2. I'm dreading month 4 since that's when Botox starts to wear off.
Thank you!
Not having used your voice for a month, I would expect it to be weak. When I first started the mouth voice I could only hold it for a short time but as I used it more, I reached the point were I could work a couple of hours on a customer call without issues and be ready for more. As for the kid, Parental Authority. They behave or they don't get the treat/story. Sometimes my mom could do more with her eyes than with her voice.
Quote from: Dena on July 25, 2015, 08:17:03 PM
Not having used your voice for a month, I would expect it to be weak. When I first started the mouth voice I could only hold it for a short time but as I used it more, I reached the point were I could work a couple of hours on a customer call without issues and be ready for more. As for the kid, Parental Authority. They behave or they don't get the treat/story. Sometimes my mom could do more with her eyes than with her voice.
Oh trust me. They do get it. I put all 3 on time out today because they were playing with the fan and also fighting over a pair of shoes. They got the message after that. I don't joke around. I am a strict but fair parent. They love me to pieces but know to behave around me.
I also have "the look" and when I clap everyone is silent... my son though, he tests the limits. Boys. smh
Quote from: Teslagirl on July 25, 2015, 08:03:28 AM
Kate's wonderful result just confirms for me what I've been thinking for a while since my own experience here started. If you're going to Yeson, don't make any coughing, throat clearing or talking mistakes. Kate didn't, and has a brilliant voice. I made quite a few mistakes, and from what i heard, my voice has reverted. The first time I made a mistake it seemed really high pitched. Not any more. I think I may have loosened the sutures or something. I'm not going to dwell on it; in the few days I have left here, I'm just going to enjoy this new culture as an experience. Maybe I can come back for a revision sometime (if Dr Kim does them). Please learn from me.
You sound like me. I got overly anxious for a bit about the outcome as well after I accidentally said four words on day 3. But my postop went very well. Everything looked well healed so far and symmetrical. Also, if you go back to the beginning of this thread and reread Jenny's experience, she talks about how she accidentally cleared her throat he first few days so many times she convinced herself she had dislodged a suture. Also she mentioned she got quite sick when she got back and 'did the best she could' with the coughing and throat clearing. Lastly, you'll also note Dr. Kim's rules have gotten stricter as time has gone on. When Jenny got it done, she was allowed 15-20 words a day after week one. Even when I first emailed about the procedure 8 months ago, Jessie said 5 words a day after week one. By the time I got the procedure done it was one to two words a day. So I don't think these things are really a factor outside of doing something so bad that you rupture the surgical site. I think the things that are a factor are things we have no control over; preop vocal health, age, how well our individual bodies heal and how quickly, how quickly our mind adapts etc. I was freaking for a while too, feeling like every time I accidentally cleared my throat with vocalization or coughed a little that I was majorly compromising the healing process. I'm not at the point that I can speak again, and I'll admit I'm still anxious about it, but try not to get yourself too worked up.
Quote from: Dana88 on July 25, 2015, 10:33:58 PM
Lastly, you'll also note Dr. Kim's rules have gotten stricter as time has gone on. When Jenny got it done, she was allowed 15-20 words a day after week one. Even when I first emailed about the procedure 8 months ago, Jessie said 5 words a day after week one. By the time I got the procedure done it was one to two words a day. So I don't think these things are really a factor outside of doing something so bad that you rupture the surgical site.
Here is what Dr Kim explained to me. Mind you I had my mom there as well and she was an ENT nurse in the OR for many years. I think that made him comfortable to explain things more. He said after 7 days external healing is more or less done. However, internal healing of the surgery site and wound is not. He explained that lower tones especially cause the vocal folds to vibrate very strongly and this could cause internal healing to be less than optimal. Coughing is especially bad. This is why I was super duper careful not to cough. I took the synatura religiously along with all the pills. If I even felt a hint of a cough or tickle I opened my mouth and went, "hhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" a few times until that sensation went away. It was really really hard and mentally taxing. However, I knew it was only for a short time and I also knew that it was for my own good. I did manage to cough twice and on the follow up he asked me if I did. I said just two times. He said, "good." So one or two times is not bad. Just don't make it a habit.
He did not even tell me I could say 2 words a day. He said, "I know it says 1-2 words but really its best to keep silent." I did for the most part, except talking in alarm to my son, telling the kids "I love you" when I was in tears when I arrived home from JFK airport, and a few words here and there. And as you can hear, I'm fine. Even between months 1 and 2 I'm not really talking loudly.
I suspect he took extra caution with me as I am diabetic and things (are supposed to) heal slower for me. But even with that, as you can hear, I am just fine.
Near the end of the month I started saying those 1-2 words (okay, it was more like 3-4) but I did my best to stay silent otherwise.
I think I would have been fine if I was talking but I did not want to take that chance. I have heard people who had voice surgery gone wrong and I don't want to end up like them. That scared me into silence.
So yes, the rules have tightened but I think he is adding some extra margin of safety.
Quote from: iKate on July 25, 2015, 10:46:30 PM
He explained that lower tones especially cause the vocal folds to vibrate very strongly and this could cause internal healing to be less than optimal. Coughing is especially bad. This is why I was super duper careful not to cough. I took the synatura religiously along with all the pills.
Of course you had to tell me that after I've had two days where I simply took a breath and basically uncontrollably wheezed out a ton of phlegm over and over and I was worried about what felt like a low rumble haha. And to clarify I can't quite tell if the low rumble is coming from my vocal cords or just from phlegm rumbling around my chest. Back to paranoia :-P. Coughing though I've managed to mostly keep at bay. Only happened two times and both times it wasn't a coughing fit, I managed to stop myself after one cough.
And yeah, he told me the same thing. And save for one slip up on day 8, I don't plan on speaking at all for the next two weeks.
Also iKate, Dr. Kim gave me a few days worth of extra Synatura when I asked but my pills from Yeson only went through the first week. Did you get extra pills too?
Quote from: Dana88 on July 25, 2015, 11:06:33 PM
Also iKate, Dr. Kim gave me a few days worth of extra Synatura when I asked but my pills from Yeson only went through the first week. Did you get extra pills too?
Nope just extra synatura, 'cause I asked for it (primarily because it's better than anything I've had in the US for cough suppression).
The pills are basically antibiotics and other stuff. Antibiotics are usually given as a course, meaning there is a definite start and end date. You can't just take more. It could cause bacteria to become resistant to it.
Quote from: iKate on July 25, 2015, 11:43:15 PM
Nope just extra synatura, 'cause I asked for it (primarily because it's better than anything I've had in the US for cough suppression).
The pills are basically antibiotics and other stuff. Antibiotics are usually given as a course, meaning there is a definite start and end date. You can't just take more. It could cause bacteria to become resistant to it.
I meant extra of the expectorants and anti-inflammatorys not the antibiotics :-).
Yes, I can confirm some of what was said about the healing process. Dr Kim explained to me as well that the first week is the external healing and the internal healing takes those 8 weeks for the min healing and then some more months for everything to heal completely and the scar tissue to form. He also said that a low and fully vibrating note is more damaging than other notes. So when I said "Ja" once in the first week, I probably did more damage than with the other two words. Coughing is really the worst though, I have never asked him about sneezing - it cannot be good either...
The way I understood it though, the internal healing is more about voice health and clarity while the healing of the suture itself should be what makes the pitch change. Apparently there is also some scar contraction happening later in the healing process - weeks to months - that also puts some tension on the vocal folds again, increasing pitch a bit more, which is why for some the pitch increase seems to come later. Thats how I understood his explanation about the late pitch gain in some.
I like the Synatura as well. It helped a lot and I got a whole package of it to take with me for the weeks after and I used half of it. I also took some very strong prescription cough suppressant with me to replace the ones that end after a week. So I continued medicating myself against coughing for some while after the first week. I also took some of that cough suppressant during the nights in Korea in addition to the ones I got from him, just to make double sure I don't cough in the nights, after I heard that apparently subconscious me coughs a lot, I was afraid to cough again while I was half out, just like in the wakeup room.
Its up to the next Yeson patients to just take the information already posted here as a given, not ask for that again, but ask new questions ;) - Like how much coughing does affect the internal healing or what is the effect of bad internal healing. Or why age matters so much. Or what to do about sneezing?
Quote from: anjaq on July 26, 2015, 05:11:47 AM
Yes, I can confirm some of what was said about the healing process. Dr Kim explained to me as well that the first week is the external healing and the internal healing takes those 8 weeks for the min healing and then some more months for everything to heal completely and the scar tissue to form. He also said that a low and fully vibrating note is more damaging than other notes. So when I said "Ja" once in the first week, I probably did more damage than with the other two words. Coughing is really the worst though, I have never asked him about sneezing - it cannot be good either...
The way I understood it though, the internal healing is more about voice health and clarity while the healing of the suture itself should be what makes the pitch change. Apparently there is also some scar contraction happening later in the healing process - weeks to months - that also puts some tension on the vocal folds again, increasing pitch a bit more, which is why for some the pitch increase seems to come later. Thats how I understood his explanation about the late pitch gain in some.
I like the Synatura as well. It helped a lot and I got a whole package of it to take with me for the weeks after and I used half of it. I also took some very strong prescription cough suppressant with me to replace the ones that end after a week. So I continued medicating myself against coughing for some while after the first week. I also took some of that cough suppressant during the nights in Korea in addition to the ones I got from him, just to make double sure I don't cough in the nights, after I heard that apparently subconscious me coughs a lot, I was afraid to cough again while I was half out, just like in the wakeup room.
Its up to the next Yeson patients to just take the information already posted here as a given, not ask for that again, but ask new questions ;) - Like how much coughing does affect the internal healing or what is the effect of bad internal healing. Or why age matters so much. Or what to do about sneezing?
I actually asked about sneezing. Jessie said same as coughing. Try blowing your nose to see if that releases whatever is irritating it and making you wanna sneeze, and basically avoid sneezing as much as possible, but if you must sneeze then try and do it without vocalization.
Also on the age front, I could be wrong, but I would assume it's just because generally as we age we don't bounce back from things and heal as quickly as we do when we're younger.
I am worried about sneezing as well because I live in Phoenix and this time of the year we have dust storm that kick up a bunch of pollen. Most of the year it's not a problem so I checked with my doctor and he said I could take the antihistamine I normally use. I will remain on it for at least a month and so far I have had no desire to sneeze. Antihistamines become less effective the longer you take them so I will stop them once I am sure the voice has healed enough.
Quote from: anjaq on July 26, 2015, 05:11:47 AM
Yes, I can confirm some of what was said about the healing process. Dr Kim explained to me as well that the first week is the external healing and the internal healing takes those 8 weeks for the min healing and then some more months for everything to heal completely and the scar tissue to form. He also said that a low and fully vibrating note is more damaging than other notes. So when I said "Ja" once in the first week, I probably did more damage than with the other two words. Coughing is really the worst though, I have never asked him about sneezing - it cannot be good either...
The way I understood it though, the internal healing is more about voice health and clarity while the healing of the suture itself should be what makes the pitch change.
So it's likely that by coughing in the first week, I've damaged the potential to increase pitch, but maybe not the overall clarity, which depends on the healing after the first week?
Sarah.
Quote from: Teslagirl on July 26, 2015, 09:13:59 AM
So it's likely that by coughing in the first week, I've damaged the potential to increase pitch, but maybe not the overall clarity, which depends on the healing after the first week?
Sarah.
I have looked closely at Dr Haben's work and I have no reason to believe Dr Kim's work is any less robust. The placement of the suture is the main determining factor for the amount of pitch you will gain. The area beyond the suture may fuse a bit more giving you a small additional gain in pitch. As long as the suture remains in place, abuse of the voice should only have a very small effect on the pitch outcome. The no noise rules are to aid in proper healing and prevent you from injuring the surgical site delaying the formation of the final voice. A few slips are going to do little or no damage but a cough fit would be very bad. The doctors sometimes put to much fear in our head over this in order to ensure their orders are closely followed. Mistakes will happen but control what you can and don't worry about what you can't.
Thanks Dena, I hope that's the case. It wasn't a coughing fit, just a single cough caused by the build-up of phlegm in the back of my throat. Maybe two occasions.
I'm seeing Dr Kim again on Tuesday.
Sarah.
Quote from: Dana88 on July 25, 2015, 11:56:28 PM
I meant extra of the expectorants and anti-inflammatorys not the antibiotics :-).
No I don't think it was necessary and neither did he.
Quote from: Teslagirl on July 26, 2015, 09:51:13 AM
Thanks Dena, I hope that's the case. It wasn't a coughing fit, just a single cough caused by the build-up of phlegm in the back of my throat. Maybe two occasions.
I'm seeing Dr Kim again on Tuesday.
Sarah.
Good luck Sarah. I'm sure you will be FINE. :)
Well, regarding age, i had the impression that with more age, not only did the healing and formation of an increased pitch take longer, but also the final feminization was less? Why would that be, I don't know
The suture itself is very robust, I don't really know what coughing or speaking does. Certainly it most unlikely would destroy the suture. I think I coughed probably more than everyone else here together and the suture was in place and looks like everyone else's. So the damage probably happens elsewhere?
Quote from: anjaq on July 26, 2015, 01:16:14 PM
Well, regarding age, i had the impression that with more age, not only did the healing and formation of an increased pitch take longer, but also the final feminization was less? Why would that be, I don't know
The suture itself is very robust, I don't really know what coughing or speaking does. Certainly it most unlikely would destroy the suture. I think I coughed probably more than everyone else here together and the suture was in place and looks like everyone else's. So the damage probably happens elsewhere?
I don't have the full answer on that but in my final meeting with Dr Haben he told me I would get the 60Hz bump in my voice that he promised before the surgery and I might get as much as 80hz depending on the healing. As healing is different from person to person, he couldn't tell me just how much of that extra 20Hz would be mine. Age affects healing and older people do have problems healing from simple injuries. In my case, my body is young for my age and I still heal well. I suspect it has to do with healing the area beyond the suture. If the area fuses, you get the extra pitch. If the area is separate, the cords are free to move closer to the suture and the voice will be a bit lower. A large amount of abuse could rip the healing apart back to the suture losing the little extra pitch you might have had. It would be interesting to look at one of your pictures months after surgery and see just how much past the sutures the cords are fused. I can't do that in my case because Haben uses a suture that dissolves so you lose the landmark for healing.
Quote from: Dena on July 26, 2015, 01:35:38 PMIt would be interesting to look at one of your pictures months after surgery and see just how much past the sutures the cords are fused.
Here is a rather current picture:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FxdINLPp.png&hash=5ea2d1eba1d34f5b45e4e67ac896307309f0c51a)
And this is from right after the surgery (7 days post op examination)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FGT0XE0H.jpg&hash=8238deea79fbb20124736c0f9f91e5f39e6c3dc3)
I am not sure what to make of it. The sutures are barely visible, they are of some green-blueish color.
You are right about it being hard to see but to my untrained eye ball, it looks like you healed beyond the suture and the amount of healing is the same from 7 days to the current photo. The remaining pitch gain then would be the result of the reduction in swelling and damage that takes place long after surgery. If Dr Kim was happy with how things looked after the final exam, then I don't think the surgery was ever damaged by anything you did and any restricts on pitch would have happened unconditionally. There are limits to what this surgery can accomplish and you seem to be working at the upper limits of it.
Quote from: iKate on July 26, 2015, 11:04:04 AM
Good luck Sarah. I'm sure you will be FINE. :)
Thanks Kate, you've been really supportive to me; I'm sure we'd be friends if we met.
I'm at a stage where I'm feeling quite down; not wanting to go, but missing home as well, and unsure of my surgery results together with some other stuff. People on our road have a hard time sometimes, don't we?
I just have today to see sights of Seoul and I've been in my room most of the time. If there was one place you'd recommend, what would it be?
Thanks again,
Sarah.
Can anyone tell me the best place to change my Wan back into UK pounds when I leave Korea? Is there somewhere at the airport?
Thanks,
Sarah.
Quote from: Teslagirl on July 26, 2015, 07:41:48 PM
Thanks Kate, you've been really supportive to me; I'm sure we'd be friends if we met.
I'm at a stage where I'm feeling quite down; not wanting to go, but missing home as well, and unsure of my surgery results together with some other stuff. People on our road have a hard time sometimes, don't we?
I just have today to see sights of Seoul and I've been in my room most of the time. If there was one place you'd recommend, what would it be?
Thanks again,
Sarah.
Hey Sarah! One of my favorite things that I did in Seoul was seeing NANTA. It's in the Myeongdong area. It's like a mix of a dance show with cooking with tons of physical comedy. Just a quick forewarning: you just have to be prepared to laugh without vocalization. Because it's quite funny. If that worries you too much, Gyeongbokgung Palace is awesome if you wanna see some history. Both the Korean Folk Museum and the Museum of Modern Art are right by the Palace. The National Museum is nice too. Also the Hanook Village is adorable. Try and have some fun!
You should be able to exchange money back to pounds at the airport.
Quote from: Teslagirl on July 26, 2015, 07:41:48 PM
I just have today to see sights of Seoul and I've been in my room most of the time. If there was one place you'd recommend, what would it be?
Thanks again,
Sarah.
Hi Sarah,
There is so much to see/do. It really depends on your interest.
N Seoul Tower and Namsan mountain is good. They have traditional shows. Bring a padlock and lock it on the tree and place the key in the box. It's for luck. However, you have to take a bus to get there. The seoul city tour bus is 12000 won and makes a lot of stops. They speak English as well. It may be a bit much to squeeze in, so if you're playing it safe, then this may not be for you. But the views are breathtaking, despite the smog. The tower itself has a scenic view from the restroom... the men's restroom. Obviously I did not go. I could have played male for a day I guess but I did not even have clothes to, lol.
Myeongdong is a must, as Dana said. The market is a nice atmosphere and there are tons of stores with people hawking goods and giving free samples and gifts. There is also Myeongdong Cathedral which is a nice sight to see. I am Catholic so I attended mass as well. There is the upscale part of Myeongdong with high fashion and there is the market which has bargain basement prices. Bring cash if you want souvenirs as sellers are willing to haggle a little.
If you like electronics, the yongsan electronics market is good. The I'Park mall has floors and floors of stuff. Lots of cheap goods, used mobile phones etc. I went there to get a few things such as plug adapters.
Just a few things. I have more. I'll post a few later.
Quote from: Dana88 on July 27, 2015, 12:55:34 AM
Hey Sarah! One of my favorite things that I did in Seoul was seeing NANTA. It's in the Myeongdong area. It's like a mix of a dance show with cooking with tons of physical comedy. Just a quick forewarning: you just have to be prepared to laugh without vocalization. Because it's quite funny. If that worries you too much, Gyeongbokgung Palace is awesome if you wanna see some history. Both the Korean Folk Museum and the Museum of Modern Art are right by the Palace. The National Museum is nice too. Also the Hanook Village is adorable. Try and have some fun!
You should be able to exchange money back to pounds at the airport.
Thanks Dana.
In the end I went to see Gyeongbokgung Palace and the Korean National Folk Museum, but it was so, so, hot! People kept staring at me like I was from Mars... It stayed hot until I got back to Phil House at 10.20 after having to put up with the beery advances of a drunken Korean man on the subway train back. It was so uncomfortable I got off the train and caught the next one instead. A great day though, despite that.
Quote from: iKate on July 27, 2015, 09:16:51 AM
Hi Sarah,
There is so much to see/do. It really depends on your interest.
N Seoul Tower and Namsan mountain is good. They have traditional shows. Bring a padlock and lock it on the tree and place the key in the box. It's for luck. However, you have to take a bus to get there. The seoul city tour bus is 12000 won and makes a lot of stops. They speak English as well. It may be a bit much to squeeze in, so if you're playing it safe, then this may not be for you. But the views are breathtaking, despite the smog. The tower itself has a scenic view from the restroom... the men's restroom. Obviously I did not go. I could have played male for a day I guess but I did not even have clothes to, lol.
Myeongdong is a must, as Dana said. The market is a nice atmosphere and there are tons of stores with people hawking goods and giving free samples and gifts. There is also Myeongdong Cathedral which is a nice sight to see. I am Catholic so I attended mass as well. There is the upscale part of Myeongdong with high fashion and there is the market which has bargain basement prices. Bring cash if you want souvenirs as sellers are willing to haggle a little.
If you like electronics, the yongsan electronics market is good. The I'Park mall has floors and floors of stuff. Lots of cheap goods, used mobile phones etc. I went there to get a few things such as plug adapters.
Just a few things. I have more. I'll post a few later.
I tried to find Namsan mountain; got off the train at the right place, walked for 20 minutes, but couldn't find it. (How can you lose a mountain?) I ended up at Seoul Station with no sign of the place. It was dark, but I assumed I'd easily see a huge mountain! In the end I just went back to the station I'd got off at. I haven't much time tomorrow as I have an appointment at id hospital in the morning (to talk about V-line surgery amongst other things) and Dr Kim in the afternoon. Then I go home on Wednesday!
Love,
Sarah.
Does anyone know if the Airport Limousine Bus takes the T-Money card as payment? (Debating the best way to get back to Incheon International Airport). Any suggestions?
Sarah.
Seoul City Tour Bus will take you there to N Seoul tower. Then you walk a little bit up the mountain. 12000 won will cover unlimited bus trips with that bus for the day. You can also see the Korean War Memorial and National Museum of Korea (NMK).
Easy from phil house. Line #5 to Gwanghwamun Station and exit at exit #6. They take cash and all major credit cards but you must buy the ticket at the booth.
If you're into gambling there are a few casinos. Paradise Casino is one where we went (my mom looooooves casinos) but I couldn't stay long as it was just too smoky. There is also Seven Luck casino which I believe is non-smoking (mom went there by herself). Foreigners only and you need to show your passport. Paradise will give you 20,000 won bonus cash to gamble if you sign up for their club card (no cost, it's a card you put in the slots or the dealers will swipe and you get bonus plays). I played roulette and doubled it so that was 40,000 won free for me :).
Next to Phil House there is the Children's Grand park which has a number of things including a zoo.
If you want you can try for a DMZ tour with North Korea but when I was there it was closed due to MERS.
Quote from: Teslagirl on July 27, 2015, 09:56:33 AM
Does anyone know if the Airport Limousine Bus takes the T-Money card as payment? (Debating the best way to get back to Incheon International Airport). Any suggestions?
Sarah.
It looks like you'll have to buy a ticket for that and they don't take T-Money.
I would try the airport express rail. It's an express train from seoul station to Incheon. I believe you can use T money and you get your own seat, so it's not like the subway. You can also do customs and immigration in advance.
One of my colleagues today made a comment, that with my new voice everything more or less comes together now and I don't seem "odd" as a beautiful woman with a deep voice.
This means that passing is now effortless, which was the goal.
Nobody questions my voice at all.
I did an experiment over the weekend. I went in a T shirt and jeans and guyed it up as much as possible. But I talked to people in my new voice. One person looked at me weird, another person said "that lady over there" pointing to me. One person called me sir before I talked to him, then he apologized.
That was a one time thing... I had to take a long hot shower with lime after that. No way am I dressing up as a guy again!
I emailed Jessie the voice sample and she said that she is happy I am happy with the outcome and that the exercises will help after the 2nd month. She says pitch will continue to rise. She also said keep her informed as to progress.
I'm so very, very pleased for you Kate; it was everything you wanted. Now, no more guy stuff, ever, OK?
Thanks for all the information as well!
Sarah.
(Looking forward to getting back to cold, wet, old England...)
So today clarity improved quite a bit. Like I'm almost back to totally normal speaking. Voice does not get tired but I don't speak too loudly. I was in a meeting and was talking back and forth no issues. Fry is almost gone and breathiness is reduced but residual enough that it aids the femininity of my voice.
Even my colleagues were saying that I just talk like a normal woman now.
I was talking to our current crop of college interns who really don't know my status and I'm confident that my voice will never be an issue. It's just one more thing not to worry about.
I am worried about month 4 which is when botox wears off and I take clonazepam. But I will cross that bridge when I reach it.
Oh, and Sarah, I'll be sure to look you up when I come to the UK!
BTW, someone asked about the rumble whether it is phlegm or your voice deepening.
I would think it's both.
2 weeks post-op I said a few words and it came out deep almost to my original voice. As you can see once the month or two is over the pitch rise is sudden and dramatic. I believe Anja said it's something like this ___/.
I have a recording that I will share privately upon request, but the pitch was almost to my pre-op voice. So don't worry, it takes time and when they mean 1-2 months they really do mean 1-2 months.
As for age, I'm not that young. I'll be 37 next month. I have a few other health issues so I'm not really the healthiest person either. I was, however, high pitched all through secondary school and my apple really isn't visible. I have had low T all my life and to conceive I had to have plenty of help...
Quote from: iKate on July 27, 2015, 11:55:02 AM
BTW, someone asked about the rumble whether it is phlegm or your voice deepening.
I would think it's both.
2 weeks post-op I said a few words and it came out deep almost to my original voice. As you can see once the month or two is over the pitch rise is sudden and dramatic. I believe Anja said it's something like this ___/.
I have a recording that I will share privately upon request, but the pitch was almost to my pre-op voice. So don't worry, it takes time and when they mean 1-2 months they really do mean 1-2 months.
As for age, I'm not that young. I'll be 37 next month. I have a few other health issues so I'm not really the healthiest person either. I was, however, high pitched all through secondary school and my apple really isn't visible. I have had low T all my life and to conceive I had to have plenty of help...
That was me :-). I've been very worried over the past few days because I usually take Allegra-D since I have very bad seasonal allergies. Dr. Kim said no decongestants for 8 weeks, so I switched to just regular Allegra. I have had so much chest phlegm/congestion/tightness since switching that often I just breathe up gobs of mucus which then feel like they constrict my wind pipe and then I have to carefully clear my throat trying as hard as I can not to make a noise. And this has been happening three or four times a day for the past three days making me slightly concerned, especially cause my throat ends up feeling raw and irritated by the end of the day. Dr. Kim said if it's really a problem I can go back on the medication with the decongestant just make sure to drink a ton of water. I'm giving it one more day, but if it's still a problem I'm going to do it. I feel like dryness is probably the lesser of two evils.
Anyway, about the low rumble, I was saying that it happens sometimes upon exhaling. I actually emailed Jessie about it. She said it's most certainly mucus and not my cords vibrating because physiologically it's impossible for my cords to vibrate when I'm exhaling because they are open to allow air to pass through and the only way sound can be made is if they're closed.
Quote from: Dana88 on July 27, 2015, 01:23:23 PM
Anyway, about the low rumble, I was saying that it happens sometimes upon exhaling. I actually emailed Jessie about it. She said it's most certainly mucus and not my cords vibrating because physiologically it's impossible for my cords to vibrate when I'm exhaling because they are open to allow air to pass through and the only way sound can be made is if they're closed.
Oh, definitely. That rumble is definitely mucus.
As for the folds not vibrating when you breathe, that is also true. In fact I saw in my follow up exam when Dr Kim asked me to breathe in and out. So yes, she is 100% correct.
An exercise when your voice gets better, try speaking when breathing in through your nose. You will see that it is difficult to make much if any noise.
I get a little of it now but not as much before. I had some other issues besides androphonia that Dr Kim took care of. I don't have to clear my throat much and I avoid doing so anyway.
Quote from: iKate on July 27, 2015, 01:42:56 PM
Oh, definitely. That rumble is definitely mucus.
As for the folds not vibrating when you breathe, that is also true. In fact I saw in my follow up exam when Dr Kim asked me to breathe in and out. So yes, she is 100% correct.
An exercise when your voice gets better, try speaking when breathing in through your nose. You will see that it is difficult to make much if any noise.
I get a little of it now but not as much before. I had some other issues besides androphonia that Dr Kim took care of. I don't have to clear my throat much and I avoid doing so anyway.
Likewise. During the preop he noticed that I had incomplete closure on one end of my vocal cords, but it was the end that was going to be dissected and sutured so it was relatively irrelevant. There were also small things he didn't see in the preop that when my cords were magnified intraop he noticed. Like apparently I did have a small amount of assymetry, and also he discovered I had nodes, both of which he corrected.
It's funny, I double majored in musical theatre and international affairs in undergrad. I had always been a tenor growing up (which with a fundamental frequency of 152 that makes sense). However during placements my freshmen year I came down with awful bronchitis and I had to sing over it because of placements. I always said my voice was never the same after that. I thought I had created psychological blocks around my singing, which I'm sure was part of it, but also now I go, I think I gave myself nodes during those placements.
Also as a side note, I will say that when I've accidentally made some ambient noises, like vocalizing a laugh or things like that, it does *seem* higher. I hope I'm not imagining it :-P.
Quote from: Teslagirl on July 27, 2015, 09:31:06 AM
Thanks Dana.
In the end I went to see Gyeongbokgung Palace and the Korean National Folk Museum, but it was so, so, hot! People kept staring at me like I was from Mars... It stayed hot until I got back to Phil House at 10.20 after having to put up with the beery advances of a drunken Korean man on the subway train back. It was so uncomfortable I got off the train and caught the next one instead. A great day though, despite that.
You may wear a hat and sun glasses to avoid staring of people in the street. In the street, nearly everybody watches me, too. Even some men and women shout like "she is so much tall" and etc.
Drunken people... It is widespread in S. Korea. http://www.blackoutkorea.com/
barbie~~
Quote from: Teslagirl on July 27, 2015, 09:31:06 AM
Thanks Dana.
In the end I went to see Gyeongbokgung Palace and the Korean National Folk Museum, but it was so, so, hot! People kept staring at me like I was from Mars... It stayed hot until I got back to Phil House at 10.20 after having to put up with the beery advances of a drunken Korean man on the subway train back. It was so uncomfortable I got off the train and caught the next one instead. A great day though, despite that.
No prob! Glad you had a good day :-). Also, EVERYONE stares in Seoul. Happened to me too. Don't let that get to you too much.
Quote from: iKate on July 27, 2015, 11:49:56 AM
So today clarity improved quite a bit. Like I'm almost back to totally normal speaking. Voice does not get tired but I don't speak too loudly. I was in a meeting and was talking back and forth no issues. Fry is almost gone and breathiness is reduced but residual enough that it aids the femininity of my voice.
Even my colleagues were saying that I just talk like a normal woman now.
I was talking to our current crop of college interns who really don't know my status and I'm confident that my voice will never be an issue. It's just one more thing not to worry about.
I am worried about month 4 which is when botox wears off and I take clonazepam. But I will cross that bridge when I reach it.
Oh, and Sarah, I'll be sure to look you up when I come to the UK!
Yes, you must come sometime! You'd be very welcome!!
It sounds like things just keep getting better for you Kate! These little things which other women take for granted are wonderful when you've lived with something else all your life and then it's fixed. Just like you, I'm hoping for some sort of improvement for when our first year undergraduates arrive later in the year.
I saw Dr Kim this afternoon and he said everything is fine, but like Dana, I have had phlegm which builds up and it's really difficult not to make a noise if it comes up. I also had the Botox injections. I'm going to the airport in the morning for a 10:45am flight to Heathrow, so I've got to get up really early, like 4:00am or something... (set out at 6:00, subway for one stop and then hopefully the airport bus. I think it's the easiest. Incidentally, Phil House says the airport bus will accept the T-Money card. I'll try anyhow. Thanks to you, and Kate and Anja and Dana and Dena and Barbie, and anyone else who has given me advice!! :)
Love from Sarah x.
Koreans stare at foreigners is what I was told. Not even being a typical white American (I am from Trinidad) I stick out even more. I maybe saw 3 people with my skin complexion when I was there. One was a shop owner in Itaewon. He was from Nepal. A couple others seemed like either Indian tourists or workers. And of course Americans near Yongsan base.
That said most people were polite to me. They just stare! Well, I stare back! And I smile :)
Quote from: Teslagirl on July 28, 2015, 07:35:14 AM
I saw Dr Kim this afternoon and he said everything is fine, but like Dana, I have had phlegm which builds up and it's really difficult not to make a noise if it comes up. I also had the Botox injections. I'm going to the airport in the morning for a 10:45am flight to Heathrow, so I've got to get up really early, like 4:00am or something... (set out at 6:00, subway for one stop and then hopefully the airport bus. I think it's the easiest. Incidentally, Phil House says the airport bus will accept the T-Money card. I'll try anyhow. Thanks to you, and Kate and Anja and Dana and Dena and Barbie, and anyone else who has given me advice!! :)
Love from Sarah x.
That's good to know. I'll keep that option in mind when letting people in the future know how to get around Seoul... I may go back sooner or later, just because, or maybe for other "work." They seem to have good surgeons there for FFS and other things.
I remember Yeson also had a shuttle service but I'm not sure it is that early or even if it covers return trips TO the airport.
The phlegm was a problem. I tried gently to get rid of it. Water helped, but just opening mouth and "hhhhhhhhhh" a few times brought some of it up.
Enjoy your flight back to LHR and I'll def look you up when I stop over in London.
Quote from: Dana88 on July 27, 2015, 08:43:59 PM
No prob! Glad you had a good day :-). Also, EVERYONE stares in Seoul. Happened to me too. Don't let that get to you too much.
My mom was even more uncomfortable than me with the staring. I guess I'm used to it being trans but for her it was totally new.
So the head voice vs chest voice thing.
I have been listening closely to cis women and a lot of them are in varying degrees of chest voice.
So it looks like the assessment of me still being in chest voice yet sounding feminine is spot on.
However, I don't think my voice is mostly chest voice. It is more biased to head voice rather than chest voice.
My opinion based on my observation is that to have a natural sounding voice, it must be at least partially chest voice. This is different from what I used to think. I once thought that I had to go all head voice to sound feminine, even with VFS. That is so not the case.
Quote from: Dena on July 26, 2015, 05:03:24 PM
You are right about it being hard to see but to my untrained eye ball, it looks like you healed beyond the suture and the amount of healing is the same from 7 days to the current photo. The remaining pitch gain then would be the result of the reduction in swelling and damage that takes place long after surgery. If Dr Kim was happy with how things looked after the final exam, then I don't think the surgery was ever damaged by anything you did and any restricts on pitch would have happened unconditionally. There are limits to what this surgery can accomplish and you seem to be working at the upper limits of it.
I wonder why that would be - me being at the limits of what that surgery can do.
I took great care after the surgery to not do bad stuff. no speak time was even 5 weeks, I just had few moments when i overused the voice after the 5 weeks,... I just have to wait and if I still feel something is not yet right at the 9 month mark, I need to bug Dr Kim about it
Maybe I should try this "dressing up as guy" thing one day and if I really pass then. I would be more relaxed. But maybe I should first do a ffs, otherwise I might get disappointed and be devastated.
Quote from: anjaq on July 28, 2015, 04:11:19 PM
I wonder why that would be - me being at the limits of what that surgery can do.
I took great care after the surgery to not do bad stuff. no speak time was even 5 weeks, I just had few moments when i overused the voice after the 5 weeks,... I just have to wait and if I still feel something is not yet right at the 9 month mark, I need to bug Dr Kim about it
My nose had swelling in it a year after surgery. It didn't show but I could feel it when I touched it. I don't know how long it took for all the swelling to go down after my SRS but it took a long time for my pee elevation to get low enough that I didn't have to rest my chest on my legs. At two weeks I can still feel a fair amount to swelling in my cords and it's only the last day they started to vibrate. Before that it was a loud whisper. In theory next monday I should be able to talk but I have a pretty good idea it will not be ready for prime time. Dr Haban indicated it could take 3 to 6 months for healing to take place but I wouldn't be surprised if it takes closer to a year.
I am not going to do the guy thing but when the voice is working correctly I will use the phone and fast food order stands as my "test".
The phone test is simple enough. I get calls to sell me stuff I don't want and they are always asking for Dena. They seem somewhat stumped when I indicate that's me. If in the future they accept the voice as female, I know it's working.
Quote from: anjaq on July 28, 2015, 04:11:19 PM
I wonder why that would be - me being at the limits of what that surgery can do.
I took great care after the surgery to not do bad stuff. no speak time was even 5 weeks, I just had few moments when i overused the voice after the 5 weeks,... I just have to wait and if I still feel something is not yet right at the 9 month mark, I need to bug Dr Kim about it
I did a lot of prep before the surgery even taking iron supplements and getting my diabetes super controlled. Even losing weight. But that was prompted by test results.
But I think some of it is just natural.
As I said I was high pitched for most of my teens and my apple doesn't really show. You have to feel around for it too as it's high up. So that may have helped with my post op sound.
I also had no training at all for feminization. In fact I had quite the opposite - training to project my voice and sound authoritative. That part is puzzling.
I looked at some of the examples on YouTube and I was worried that I would not come out like one of the "good" results and be stuck with an androgynous voice. I was really really worried.
Hello again.
Well I got home safely, and jet lag doesn't seem to be a problem much; I just stayed up longer until normal bedtime for the UK. I have had numerous small 'accidents', including a sneeze and I'm just going to wait and see how it finally works out.
Does anyone know if the month without talking includes that week after the surgery, but before seeing Dr Kim for the last time? or does it start from after the final appointment? He gave me more Synatura and five days more tablets to take home with me. I had the botox injections as well, which really don't hurt, but he said I will probably need more at home.
It's really frustrating not being able to use the telephone! Not everyone uses email (like my GP) and the only way to contact them is to go physically, which is a real pain.
The most embarassing thing whilst in Korea was being offered the elderly seats on subway trains. This happened twice, and sometimes by people who I thought looked at least as old as me. Perhaps I will go back to id clinic for the various facelift surgeries they offered me!
A good thing was using the women-only queue at Incheon security on the way back. I saw a sign saying 'Women' and thought I was required to go that way. It's wonderfully old fashioned, but I was through security much faster than the people (both men and women) who had chosen to use the standard queue.
By the way, I can see how some people like the subway trains, but I found them always crowded, and certainly when I went, almost unbearably hot and humid despite the air conditioning which was really having a hard time keeping up. I did notice that Koreans only sat by me if there was absolutely no alternative, and sometimes they preferred to stand instead. Taxis are fairly cheap and private, and often the air conditioning is more effective than on subway trains.
The best thing about getting back was having traditional Harry Ramsden's fish and chips with loads of ketchup shortly after leaving Heathrow.
Sarah.
The month time would be healing time after surgery so that would be one month after surgery. With Dr Haben it's 8 days after surgery for light usage and 2.5 weeks for normal usage unless something more extensive was done. One woman here is on a 1 month wait like you because Dr Haben need to do something additional for her. What, I don't know but Dr Haben does far more than feminization surgeries and if he sees another problem while he is in there, he will correct it if he can. Sadly he couldn't correct my secondary issue.
The short times Dr Haben gives don't mean the voice is ready to use. I am at the 2 week mark and I am still using paper and pen because the voice is hard to control and weak. I still need more swelling to go down before it will be usable. It wouldn't surprise me if it takes close to a month before my voice is usable.
Quote from: Dena on July 30, 2015, 11:33:16 AM
The month time would be healing time after surgery so that would be one month after surgery. With Dr Haben it's 8 days after surgery for light usage and 2.5 weeks for normal usage unless something more extensive was done. One woman here is on a 1 month wait like you because Dr Haben need to do something additional for her. What, I don't know but Dr Haben does far more than feminization surgeries and if he sees another problem while he is in there, he will correct it if he can. Sadly he couldn't correct my secondary issue.
The short times Dr Haben gives don't mean the voice is ready to use. I am at the 2 week mark and I am still using paper and pen because the voice is hard to control and weak. I still need more swelling to go down before it will be usable. It wouldn't surprise me if it takes close to a month before my voice is usable.
Hello Dena,
I think they're both quite similar. Dr Kim corrected my vocal fold asymmetry as well as dong the VFS and I think he is very aware of and addresses all sorts of vocal issues. VFS is only a part of what he does. Thanks for the info on the waiting period.
Quote from: Teslagirl on July 30, 2015, 11:10:35 AM
Hello again.
Well I got home safely, and jet lag doesn't seem to be a problem much; I just stayed up longer until normal bedtime for the UK. I have had numerous small 'accidents', including a sneeze and I'm just going to wait and see how it finally works out.
Does anyone know if the month without talking includes that week after the surgery, but before seeing Dr Kim for the last time? or does it start from after the final appointment? He gave me more Synatura and five days more tablets to take home with me. I had the botox injections as well, which really don't hurt, but he said I will probably need more at home.
Hi Sarah, glad you're back safe in familiar surroundings.
Vocal rest is required for a minimum of 1 month after surgery. So if you had the surgery on the 1st of July for example you would be able to talk on the 1st of August or thereabouts. The instructions say 1 week of complete silence followed by 3 weeks of minimal usage, which is 2-3 words a day max, or as Dr Kim told me, "emergency only but it's best to remain silent."
QuoteIt's really frustrating not being able to use the telephone! Not everyone uses email (like my GP) and the only way to contact them is to go physically, which is a real pain.
It was not a big issue for me but I did have some challenges. My GP's office called to say she would be out on holiday for my next appointment so I had to reschedule. I couldn't call and reschedule until I could talk again. I thought you could do it from the iPhone app (healow) but apparently not.
Disciplining children was a challenge but the power of clapping your hands, a whistle, a frowny face and a wagging finger cannot be underestimated.
And of course in New Jersey we cannot pump our own petrol, so we have to talk to the petrol station attendant. Many of them cannot read English and one guy started touching me and tried to make small talk, asking why I can't talk. Well gee, you think if I can't talk and you can't read, I wouldn't be able to answer.. I rolled up my window and drove off when he did that.
Quote
By the way, I can see how some people like the subway trains, but I found them always crowded, and certainly when I went, almost unbearably hot and humid despite the air conditioning which was really having a hard time keeping up. I did notice that Koreans only sat by me if there was absolutely no alternative, and sometimes they preferred to stand instead. Taxis are fairly cheap and private, and often the air conditioning is more effective than on subway trains.
I did not find that to be the case. I found them to be a bit cold! Maybe because I'm anemic or maybe because I dress with short skirts and thin clothes and rarely trousers.
People sat by me quite often, they sat by my mum too. Moreso women than men. I don't know why they would avoid you.
I was offered a seat once or twice by men but I don't see much of that as there is in western culture. And occasionally I'd see a drunk here and there. Blech.
The crowds are typically only there during rush hour. Otherwise the trains have room, and seats.
Quote from: Teslagirl on July 30, 2015, 11:10:35 AM
A good thing was using the women-only queue at Incheon security on the way back. I saw a sign saying 'Women' and thought I was required to go that way. It's wonderfully old fashioned, but I was through security much faster than the people (both men and women) who had chosen to use the standard queue.
Nice to hear that you returned home without any serious problem.
Regarding the gendered ques, I usually choose the ques for both men and women.
That is just for convenience as some women prefer female security staffs touching their body.
You can choose any queue, and nothing will happen.
A few years ago, a female security staff happened to see my ID. I entered the queue and there were one female and one male security staff. The female security staff tried to touch my body, and then the staff who saw my ID suddenly shouted like "He is a man!". I was upset, and admonished her not to shout like that way. She just apologized. I guess she was a novice.
The bottom line is that nothing will happen even if a female security touches a male passenger.
barbie~~
Quote from: iKate on July 30, 2015, 02:40:08 PM
The crowds are typically only there during rush hour. Otherwise the trains have room, and seats.
The subway line from the airport to Seoul station is at least crowded, and the line #9 is the most crowded, especially during rush hours.
In the case of iKate, you stayed in Seoul while MERS was the biggest news. I was surprised that the subway train was nearly empty during rush hours. A lot of people drove their own cars to their offices, instead of taking bus or subway. Even the number of passengers greatly decreased in all of the airports here. Now, it becomes normal: crowded subway and airports.
barbie~~
Quote from: Teslagirl on July 30, 2015, 11:10:35 AM
Hello again.
Well I got home safely, and jet lag doesn't seem to be a problem much; I just stayed up longer until normal bedtime for the UK. I have had numerous small 'accidents', including a sneeze and I'm just going to wait and see how it finally works out.
Does anyone know if the month without talking includes that week after the surgery, but before seeing Dr Kim for the last time? or does it start from after the final appointment? He gave me more Synatura and five days more tablets to take home with me. I had the botox injections as well, which really don't hurt, but he said I will probably need more at home.
Glad to hear you got home safely! And everyone makes little mistakes. Don't worry :).
Also it's four weeks from your surgery date. I even clarified with Jessie because they kept on using one month and four weeks interchangeably and while they can be close, they're technically not the same amount of days. She confirmed that when they say month, they're speaking in 4 week increments. So four weeks after your surgery you can speak again but carefully and no whispering or yelling. Then 8 weeks after surgery you can resume normal function and you begin the exercises they gave you.
So there are a few strange things.
My voice passes 100% unquestionably all the time. Like, I never have to worry. Phone, retail, drive thru. No worries at all. I get talked over and dismissed in conf calls and meetings too. I mean it's good that I pass but it's annoying to have that happen.
However, Praat only has it at 180-205Hz mostly averaging around that. I mean, numbers are meaningless, just the result. But I somehow thought you had to be over like 220.
Also, I have a wee bit of foreign body sensation today. Almost feels like if something is stuck in my throat. Yesterday and today I had a little feeling of airway restriction. Not that I couldn't breathe but it just felt funny. I will monitor over the next few days and ask Jessie.
But, so far so good.
Quote from: iKate on July 31, 2015, 11:43:05 AM
So there are a few strange things.
My voice passes 100% unquestionably all the time. Like, I never have to worry. Phone, retail, drive thru. No worries at all. I get talked over and dismissed in conf calls and meetings too. I mean it's good that I pass but it's annoying to have that happen.
However, Praat only has it at 180-205Hz mostly averaging around that. I mean, numbers are meaningless, just the result. But I somehow thought you had to be over like 220.
Also, I have a wee bit of foreign body sensation today. Almost feels like if something is stuck in my throat. Yesterday and today I had a little feeling of airway restriction. Not that I couldn't breathe but it just felt funny. I will monitor over the next few days and ask Jessie.
But, so far so good.
If you look online it actually puts the start of an average female fundamental frequency starts at 165 and goes to 255. There was another girl who got surgery at Yeson who said she was pushing her voice up to the 220s, and then eventually found that settling around an average of 175 actually sounded more feminine and natural and gave her more room for female prosody and cadence.
Also I had a three week follow up with a Laryngologist back home in NYC today. She said I'm healing well. Took some photos that I'm gonna forward to Dr. Kim. I can speak again so soon I can taste it!
Quote from: Dana88 on July 31, 2015, 12:17:34 PM
If you look online it actually puts the start of an average female fundamental frequency starts at 165 and goes to 255. There was another girl who got surgery at Yeson who said she was pushing her voice up to the 220s, and then eventually found that settling around an average of 175 actually sounded more feminine and natural and gave her more room for female prosody and cadence.
That's true. I guess my concern is that I hope I sound like a woman and not a little boy. I heard one woman here who went to yeson got a pitch in the 230s and still sounds male. I record myself sometimes and it sounds good so I guess I'm worried over nothing.
Also I notice that I sometimes go up to 220-230 speaking with prosody. I actually don't even think about prosody now, it just pretty much happens.
Quote from: Dana88 on July 31, 2015, 12:17:34 PM
Also I had a three week follow up with a Laryngologist back home in NYC today. She said I'm healing well. Took some photos that I'm gonna forward to Dr. Kim. I can speak again so soon I can taste it!
Good to know. They recommend one 4 months post op for me. Zil said she could give me a referral. I think at this point unless I have some incident like shouting or emergency medical care requiring intubation I will just wait until month 4.
Quote from: iKate on July 31, 2015, 12:20:04 PM
Good to know. They recommend one 4 months post op for me. Zil said she could give me a referral. I think at this point unless I have some incident like shouting or emergency medical care requiring intubation I will just wait until month 4.
Yeah the only reason I went is because I have terrible allergies. This is the issue I mentioned before where normally I take Allegra-D but they said no decongestants so I switched to regular Allegra. Since I switched I've had so much chest congestion and phlegm, so by the end of the day my throat feels raw and irritated even if I haven't been clearing or coughing. So I just wanted to make sure that issue wasn't interfering with healing. Though literally on the camera she could see the mucus sitting in my airway just beyond my vocal cords. It was crazy. But she said I'm healing well and it's just allergies. There's no infection or anything. So basically, it's a nuisance and just try and grin and bear it for the next ten days and don't get too worked up over it.
Quote from: iKate on July 31, 2015, 12:20:04 PM
That's true. I guess my concern is that I hope I sound like a woman and not a little boy. I heard one woman here who went to yeson got a pitch in the 230s and still sounds male. I record myself sometimes and it sounds good so I guess I'm worried over nothing.
IKate, I am a terrible lying so I always tell the truth. The truth is you are far to worried about pitch and that voice will not be gendered as male. There is a woman at work who has a voice far lower than that and the only reason somebody might call her sir it the fact she is running the company. They don't call her sir because of her voice. My voice at worst will be centered around 190hz and at best 210z. The doctor gave me as much of a push as he could taking 40% of the cords but healing is going to determine what my final number will be. He didn't suggest a triple for additional pitch and he is comfortable that is acceptable for a female voice. On top of that, the final voice may take 2 to 3 months to emerge so your voice may be a bit higher a month from now.
Also, a little boy voice would be a much higher pitch than were you are. Children are up in the neighborhood of 300hz. Both male and female voices drop in pitch due to our growth. Male voices take a even deeper dive because of the exposure to T. We are talking about a pretty small difference in frequency between all of these voices but the brain some how or another has evolved to detect these differences giving us age and gender from pitch and speech pattern.
If you look at the chart in the link, you will see that the ambiguous and female ranges overlap a good deal. What separates the two and what you have is the female speech pattern. In theory you could go still lower with your voice and it would be gendered female. Believe what others are telling you and that is your voice is great.
http://www.nyspeechandvoicelab.net/transgender/voice-feminization/ (http://www.nyspeechandvoicelab.net/transgender/voice-feminization/)
Quote from: Dena on July 31, 2015, 03:32:08 PM
IKate, I am a terrible lying so I always tell the truth. The truth is you are far to worried about pitch and that voice will not be gendered as male. There is a woman at work who has a voice far lower than that and the only reason somebody might call her sir it the fact she is running the company. They don't call her sir because of her voice. My voice at worst will be centered around 190hz and at best 210z. The doctor gave me as much of a push as he could taking 40% of the cords but healing is going to determine what my final number will be. He didn't suggest a triple for additional pitch and he is comfortable that is acceptable for a female voice. On top of that, the final voice may take 2 to 3 months to emerge so your voice may be a bit higher a month from now.
Also, a little boy voice would be a much higher pitch than were you are. Children are up in the neighborhood of 300hz. Both male and female voices drop in pitch due to our growth. Male voices take a even deeper dive because of the exposure to T. We are talking about a pretty small difference in frequency between all of these voices but the brain some how or another has evolved to detect these differences giving us age and gender from pitch and speech pattern.
If you look at the chart in the link, you will see that the ambiguous and female ranges overlap a good deal. What separates the two and what you have is the female speech pattern. In theory you could go still lower with your voice and it would be gendered female. Believe what others are telling you and that is your voice is great.
http://www.nyspeechandvoicelab.net/transgender/voice-feminization/ (http://www.nyspeechandvoicelab.net/transgender/voice-feminization/)
^^^ All of this.
Yeah I guess. It all boils down to other self image issues I've been having lately. I think I will be fine.
I have that chart on my phone saved, I refer to it whenever I do a praat recording. I guess I should just depend on human feedback more.
Quote from: iKate on July 31, 2015, 04:01:06 PM
Yeah I guess. It all boils down to other self image issues I've been having lately. I think I will be fine.
I have that chart on my phone saved, I refer to it whenever I do a praat recording. I guess I should just depend on human feedback more.
I agree with the others. Hyper-focusing in terms of pitch is a bad idea. Don't forget that pitch in terms of notes increases exponentially so the higher you go the larger the numerical hertz difference between two intervals that, musically speaking, might be as small as a half step. Cis-women do experience a voice drop during puberty and also incrementally with age so picking a number on the hertz scale that you may have read is "average" female pitch and obsessing over it is counterintuitive to your end goal :)
I think the main reason I focus about pitch these days is that my present pitch is just not that far away from my pre op pitch. I think maybe 30 Hz. Depending on how I speak, its not even that, or it can be 80Hz. I am totally aware there are a dozend other voice parameters that count for being gendered correctly, but amost all of those dont have to do with surgery or dont need surgery - so basically I dont expect them to change much with surgery.
Voice surgery of the kind done at Yeson is described often as pitch raising surgery, so clearly a focus of all patients is on pitch - I think its not all true, because something else also changes about te voice - maybe it also has to do with a pitch - the pitch of the undertones or overtones of the voice - in the perception, this shifts the timbre of the voice and changes the perceived vocal gender in that way even if average speaking pitch did not change too much.
Quote from: iKate on July 31, 2015, 04:01:06 PM
Yeah I guess. It all boils down to other self image issues I've been having lately. I think I will be fine.
I have that chart on my phone saved, I refer to it whenever I do a praat recording. I guess I should just depend on human feedback more.
Also remember, you're not even really supposed to get a huge pitch increase until between 8 and 24 weeks postop. So the fact that you even have a 30/40 hz bump before the 8 week mark and have a voice already that passes as female on the phone is wonderful.
Quote from: anjaq on August 01, 2015, 04:07:28 PM
I think the main reason I focus about pitch these days is that my present pitch is just not that far away from my pre op pitch. I think maybe 30 Hz. Depending on how I speak, its not even that, or it can be 80Hz. I am totally aware there are a dozend other voice parameters that count for being gendered correctly, but amost all of those dont have to do with surgery or dont need surgery - so basically I dont expect them to change much with surgery.
Voice surgery of the kind done at Yeson is described often as pitch raising surgery, so clearly a focus of all patients is on pitch - I think its not all true, because something else also changes about te voice - maybe it also has to do with a pitch - the pitch of the undertones or overtones of the voice - in the perception, this shifts the timbre of the voice and changes the perceived vocal gender in that way even if average speaking pitch did not change too much.
Well there is more than just a pitch increase. I think the greatest aspect of feminization with glottoplasty is that they effectively created a high pass filter to attenuate the lower undertones. I think that is more powerful than just the pitch increase alone. Someone told me its as if there was an equalizer on my voice and the bass was turned way down and the treble slightly increased. Mom says my voice sounds unmistakably feminine yet familiar.
Quote from: Dana88 on August 01, 2015, 09:11:21 PM
Also remember, you're not even really supposed to get a huge pitch increase until between 8 and 24 weeks postop. So the fact that you even have a 30/40 hz bump before the 8 week mark and have a voice already that passes as female on the phone is wonderful.
That's true. Jessie also said the exercises will help too. Come on month 2!
I agree on that equalizer analogy - thats exactly what happened and what makes a big difference now for me. I did not really have much pitch inrease in those 24 weeks. Basically it's about the same as it was at the 6 week mark and I am now at about 5 1/2 months. Maybe it shifted by 10 Hz or so, but its hard to say. I am getting mor used to using the pitch a bit better - not falling back so often completely to my old pitch, but I dont really feel I had much physical change, more a mental adaptation.
However more healing has to come, I hope. I am still sounding a bit husky and if I have a conversation over a longer time, like 1-2 hours in the car while driving, my voice can give up completely. I had that happen yesterday. It recovered after half an hour of being silent , drinking a lot, talking some throat pastilles - but the rest of the evening, I had a bit of a sore throat :( - I hope this will eventually pass.
I had a bit of a long conversation with friends at a bbq and radio club meeting yesterday. My voice didn't tire at all but I kept the volume down. I asked for opinions and one of the ladies said "you sound perfect" and one of the guys gave me a look and said "very close to how a woman would sound." For 1 month I'm not complaining but I think he was a bit biased because he knew :)
Not complaining because the voice completely passed at Roy Rogers and a farm stand I bought some veggies from.
Quote from: anjaq on August 02, 2015, 05:49:00 AM
However more healing has to come, I hope. I am still sounding a bit husky and if I have a conversation over a longer time, like 1-2 hours in the car while driving, my voice can give up completely. I had that happen yesterday. It recovered after half an hour of being silent , drinking a lot, talking some throat pastilles - but the rest of the evening, I had a bit of a sore throat :( - I hope this will eventually pass.
I don't know how strong your old voice was, but the fact that your voice was sore after overusing it indicates you may be pushing it beyond what it is capable of. In a non surgical voice over time this will result in damage. If the overuse is not extensive, keeping the voice in check will allow the voice to heal. Continued misuse will result in damage to the voice that may requires surgery to correct. This is one of the procedures Dr Haben performs on professional singers and I think one of the girls here had this done to her voice in addition to the feminization.
What scares me a bit is how soft my voice currently is at about 2.5 weeks after surgery. My two primary request were a bump in pitch and a voice that could project. I work in noise and with people how have failing hearing so I need to turn up the volume in order to get the message out. I don't need to yell and I haven't done it as a female. I hope as the voice heals I get the volume back that I once had.
Well I did have some voice issues before the surgery due to the misuse in the years before. But I could, after a year of voice therapy, talk for prolonged periods of time again without overstraining it. In this situation it was not a tough environment. It was in a car, so it was not really silent, but I used regular speaking loudness and it was a dialoque with breaks, so nothing special. I guess the voice was a bit damaged from the hiking and breathing a lot through the mouth while doing so plus a bit of stress from driving a lot and sleeping a bit less. I was a bit surprised that now, nearing half a year post op, I still would have to limit my conversations to maybe an hour or two to ensure not overtraining my voice. Maybe I am doing something wrong - using a bad phonation pattern, too low pitch, too much resonance control - something that makes the voice tire faster...
My big issue with my trained voice was where I needed to be in pitch was at the upper end of my working range and I knew I couldn't get the volume of inflection without pushing my voice way beyond it's limits. My sweet spot was much lower as you commented about in the past. Neither the mouth or falsetto had a sweet spot high enough to get above 170 to 180 hz. I still have far to much swelling but already I can tell both the mouth and falsetto have moved up a range. they still need to move another 20-30 hz to get them where they need to be but I still have another month before I can really expect anything approaching my final voice.
You need to work up and down your range and find out where your voice is the strongest. The spot should be on the bottom end of the range but a bit above the hard bottom. While my male voice could go as low as 80hz, I had to push it a bit to hit that. I don't know what my voice normally used to be but I suspect it was between 90 and 100 hz where the voice was comfortable to use.
In training our voices, we forget these natural limits and become like singers who move our voice to where the music leads us. If we want a comfortable speaking voice, we need to go back to basics and learn where our voice naturally falls and use that voice.
Quote from: Dena on August 02, 2015, 09:47:25 AM
You need to work up and down your range and find out where your voice is the strongest. The spot should be on the bottom end of the range but a bit above the hard bottom. While my male voice could go as low as 80hz, I had to push it a bit to hit that. I don't know what my voice normally used to be but I suspect it was between 90 and 100 hz where the voice was comfortable to use.
In training our voices, we forget these natural limits and become like singers who move our voice to where the music leads us. If we want a comfortable speaking voice, we need to go back to basics and learn where our voice naturally falls and use that voice.
Well, I guess its different post op for me at least. My lowest pitch pre op was also about 80 Hz, my "male voice" probably was around 110-120 Hz, my relaxed voice pre op was however 140 Hz, tweaking it a bit, I could do 160 Hz without effort. Anything above was costing effort.
Post op now my lowest pitch is 120 Hz, I can comfortably do a 130 Hz note if I want to, when I speak relaxed, I think I am at about 160 Hz, doing a bit of effort I am at 180 Hz, "singing" for the Yeson exercises will give me a relaxed start at 190 Hz, sometimes 200 Hz.
If I would take my lower pitch end and add some Hz to it and use this, I would be flat in the male range. Its still about 50 Hz to get from those 120 Hz to the lower end of the female range... so I think this may not be the right way to determine a good pitch for me. I suspect the 180-200 Hz range is where I should be best...
Pulling out my old information
Lowest usable note 80Hz, male speaking voice was above that.
Mouth voice 130-196Hz
Falsetto voice 155-237Hz
Whistler voice 250-490Hz
Now the doctor promised me a 60hz push on the mouth voice and said I might have as much as 80hz depending on the healing. That puts my female voice around 190 to 210 if everything works as advertised. The interesting thing is I found it very easy to transition to the falsetto range and did it almost by accident at around 250hz. My voice then went up to almost 400hz indicating the push isn't linear. As I said, I also have seen my mouth voice drop below 160hz.
I have done very limited testing because I don't want to damage anything and the voice is still real unstable.
My speaking voice today seem to be about 160hz but I can still feel the swelling as it feels like I have a really bad head cold. Better numbers will have to wait a month or two for the rest of the swelling to go down, for the suture to dissolve and for me to get used to controlling the new voice.
Having a pitch meter app on my cell phone was one of the best apps I ever bought. Any time I need to use my voice and I want to gather information, out comes my cell phone. I learned a great deal about my voice just through normal conversation. The one I use is called Pitch Lab.
Tonight's "I am Cait" shows Jenny's video...
They contacted me about a month ago asking if they could use it, I gave them clearance. I have to go check it out! Awesome!
I kinda figured prior permission was in order. Good to know. Jenny, you're famous!
Gah I am dying to see it now ;D
Guess I'll have to wait a day or two! Seems like they did a good job with it, though? A few friends have contacted me in excitement!
Quote from: Jennygirl on August 02, 2015, 09:06:02 PM
Gah I am dying to see it now ;D
Guess I'll have to wait a day or two! Seems like they did a good job with it, though? A few friends have contacted me in excitement!
I haven't seen it but from what I gather, they were showing it to her as an example of a woman who trained her voice. That is a complete misrepresentation because we all know you had surgery. If they wanted to show someone with a voice achieved through training alone, they would be better off showing Andrea James or Calpernia Addams.
But... Since I work in the industry, I know that television is not reality, even so-called "reality" shows. A good friend of mine used to edit shows like TAR and he said most of the stuff ended up on the cutting room floor because it was so boring and a lot of stuff was "sexed up" because it made for good TV.
It makes me wonder though, if Jenner has all that money, why didn't she get VFS? The trachea shave is the only logical reason I can think of since it tends to complicate things.
My take on it is that Jenner's voice isn't really all that low and hasn't been a priority up to now. We all have different dysphoria and that tends to determine our surgical priority. Everybody needs to follow a basic rule with surgeries and that is proper spacing. Our voice surgery has a 3 month wait time before any more elective surgery. FFS surgery which Jenner has had, has a much longer waiting period. I have heard from a indirect unreliable source that Jenner had SRS. I doubt that story because it would mean the year cross living rule was violated, but if the story were true, SRS would have at least a 6 month waiting period before elective surgery. While I had a very small amount of paper work in Dr Haban's office, the paper work did include surgical information. It was a little funny when I saw the question asking when I had SRS because it was my last surgery 33 years ago. I suspect Dr Haban operates on people younger that the time from my last surgery.
Quote from: Dena on August 03, 2015, 08:51:57 AMI have heard from a indirect unreliable source that Jenner had SRS.
I doubt that story because it would mean the year cross living rule was violated, but if the story were true, SRS would have at least a 6 month waiting period before elective surgery.
She said that she didn't but she would think of it down the line. She had FFS and BA and a trach shave. That's about it.
She did say that she had the two required referrals. This was in the interview with Diane Sawyer. My educated guess is that she got them because she is a celebrity and going out in the public eye before she is ready to fully transition would have been disastrous. You can see from the Paparazzi and media circus in general what was happening. So she more or less had to have her 1 year RLE in private.
Now that she's supposedly dating Candis Cayne (per rumors) I don't know if she will just stay non-op.
QuoteWhile I had a very small amount of paper work in Dr Haban's office, the paper work did include surgical information. It was a little funny when I saw the question asking when I had SRS because it was my last surgery 33 years ago. I suspect Dr Haban operates on people younger that the time from my last surgery.
Dr Kim's paperwork asked about previous surgeries and issues with anesthesia as well and mentioned 2 month spacing. Next one I'm having is likely FFS but that's about a year away at least.
Quote from: iKate on August 03, 2015, 08:20:26 AM
I haven't seen it but from what I gather, they were showing it to her as an example of a woman who trained her voice. That is a complete misrepresentation because we all know you had surgery. If they wanted to show someone with a voice achieved through training alone, they would be better off showing Andrea James or Calpernia Addams.
But... Since I work in the industry, I know that television is not reality, even so-called "reality" shows. A good friend of mine used to edit shows like TAR and he said most of the stuff ended up on the cutting room floor because it was so boring and a lot of stuff was "sexed up" because it made for good TV.
It makes me wonder though, if Jenner has all that money, why didn't she get VFS? The trachea shave is the only logical reason I can think of since it tends to complicate things.
Yup. That's exactly what happened. They used Jenny's video as an example of what voice training can do. And I was like... Ummmmm. I wonder if maybe Yeson didn't give permission to publicize their clinic on the show?
Interesting... Very interesting. Indeed it was a lot of (or perhaps mostly) training, but it was training made possible by surgical modification of the length of the vocal chords. I'm surprised they left that out! They must have consciously done it because all my videos have "surgery" in the title.
Very interesting!
And my voice has had basically zero training, but has had the surgery and passes everywhere without question.
I actually am excited for month 2 because Jessie said that it would get even better with training.
IKate, I don't know where it came from but you are using the same speech pattern you had with the male voice. It was an expressive male speech pattern but when the pitch went up it transformed to a very feminine sounding voice. Training wasn't required in your case but have heard others on this site who had a monotone male speech pattern that didn't transform after the surgery. In my opinion the only thing you could do to improve the voice with training is to use a bit more pitch change when speaking. Be careful not to get carried away with it because you only need a small amount to liven up the voice but that may be one of the best out of the box voices we will ever hear around here.
I only hope that after years of being confined by the limits of my old voice I am able to work enough of what I know in to my voice so I can approach what you have.
Yes, my speech patterns are feminine and got me bullied around in school quite a lot. My dad used to also scold me for answering the phone in a sing-songy voice. Oh well!
I watched it. It's online now on the E! website for viewers in the United States. Sign in with a TV provider is required.
The clip with Jenny is at 4:17. It's the 7 month video.
They talk about surgery after, around the 6 minute mark.
So I think Caitlyn will probably be headed for surgery soon, I think. Whether she chooses Dr Kim or Dr Haben is anyone's guess. :)
There are a few other options out there but I suspect it's going to be Dr. Kim because it took me a good deal of digging to come up with Dr. Haben. My order of discovery was Portland, Dr. Kim and then through Susan's I found Dr Haben. Had Portland been my only option, I would have passed on surgery because the post surgical voices didn't sound right to my ear. Dr. Kim's voice sound good but Korea is a long way off and I really like to have options to chose from so I went looking for another option.
As high as Jenner's voice is, therapy should work well but I think Dr. Kim or Dr. Haben would both be able to do a good job with that voice.
A little side note, when Jenner first came out and before I found Susan's place, I fired off an offer of help to Jenner. I never received a response and I never expected one but Jenner appears to have different support structure, most likely provided through her doctors. Jenner had dyslexia so I suspect she spends little if any time on the web or even reading fan mail. If she is aware of us, it would most likely be as the result of somebody else pointing us out.
Ahhh so neat! I got goosebumps!
Quote from: Dena on August 04, 2015, 09:20:55 AM
There are a few other options out there but I suspect it's going to be Dr. Kim because it took me a good deal of digging to come up with Dr. Haben. My order of discovery was Portland, Dr. Kim and then through Susan's I found Dr Haben. Had Portland been my only option, I would have passed on surgery because the post surgical voices didn't sound right to my ear. Dr. Kim's voice sound good but Korea is a long way off and I really like to have options to chose from so I went looking for another option.
As high as Jenner's voice is, therapy should work well but I think Dr. Kim or Dr. Haben would both be able to do a good job with that voice.
A little side note, when Jenner first came out and before I found Susan's place, I fired off an offer of help to Jenner. I never received a response and I never expected one but Jenner appears to have different support structure, most likely provided through her doctors. Jenner had dyslexia so I suspect she spends little if any time on the web or even reading fan mail. If she is aware of us, it would most likely be as the result of somebody else pointing us out.
I suspect Haben because she had the trach shave and Dr Kim tends to discourage the trach shave. They even used to do it as part of the procedure but I was told they stopped doing it because it makes things more complicated. Meanwhile Dr Haben offers it as part of the "triple." I also think that with Cait's voice that she may be more suited to a CTA in addition to glottoplasty.
Dr Haben didn't want to offer me the triple because he though he could do enough without it and because I told him I had the trach shave. I think he may have reevaluated things a little bit because my shave was very conservative and it was much lower than he though it would be. I didn't really want the loss of flexibility that the triple would cause and as he said he could push my voice into the acceptable range without the triple, that was the way we went.
My voice was far lower than Jenner's so I don't really see why either doctor couldn't do the surgery unless the trach shave was to extreme.
So I can speak in 5 days (including today). I couldn't resist earlier and for the first time I used one of my one to two emergency words (I've been silent the rest of the recovery period). I just said "hi" into my voice memos. I wish I didn't do it just cause now it's set off my anxiety. I couldn't tell if it was hoarse or if my voice was trying to access a part of it that no longer exists, or a little bit of both. That said, the timbre definitely sounds more feminine. So now I'm just going to sit tight and be silent again till Monday and try not to obsess too hard.
Don't panic. I am 3 weeks out from Dr Haben and only the last 3 day have have I had any type of voice. I am pretty flat but I have volume. it also still sounds like I have the mother of all head colds but I am using my mouth voce and generating pitches in my old falsetto range. Until this swelling goes down a bit more I have no clue how high the final voice will be. Before this, volume was limited to a loud whisper and it took around 10 days after surgery before I could even get the cords to vibrate. I suspect I do swell a bit more than normal. We have person who came back from Dr Haben who took over a month before the voice became usable. The only thing we do know is that nobody has reported permanent voice loss and voices can take as long as 6 weeks to 2 months to be come usable.
Dr Haben has put some people on a month long voice rest for the simple reason he knew how bad the initial voice would be and he didn't want them to have anxiety from a voice that was no where near finish form. I guess he figure I could handle the pressure but I don't know why he though that as I was really wound up before surgery.
Just understand we don't all heal at the same rate and some of us have to wait it out a good deal longer. I wouldn't be surprised if I am not ready to record a voice sample until 6 to 8 weeks at the rate I am going.
As for learning to use the voice, you do need a much lighter touch, much like controlling a falsetto voice in order to use the new voice. I was jumping all over the scale at first because it is different.
I'm trying not to.
What's odd is that, okay, I'll admit, I did have ONE little mess up where I used my two emergency words before today :P. It was last Friday. My brother was backseat driving the hell out of me and he pointed out a stop sign and I exasperatedly said "I see." And that wasn't hoarse at all. So what I'm wondering is if it is that I was trying to access a low part of my voice that's gone, and that the "I see" was automatic without thinking so my voice just naturally went where it should now? Maybe? I don't know.
Don't try to over think it. Control of the vocal cords will be much different and you are going to have some experimentation to figure out how they work again. I haven't wasted time playing with the chest voice but I have slipped into it and control of it has changed as well. If you have had some words come out clear, trust that your voice is there and ready to work. There is a huge learning curve with the new voice unless you are like IKate and had it nailed from birth.
By the way, all of you voice is still there unless you had Dr Haben's triple, it's just moved up the scale a ways. My male voice should now be a high male voice or a low female voice, I won't know until I do some more playing which won't be for a month or two
Quote from: Dena on August 05, 2015, 02:19:15 PM
Don't try to over think it. Control of the vocal cords will be much different and you are going to have some experimentation to figure out how they work again. I haven't wasted time playing with the chest voice but I have slipped into it and control of it has changed as well. If you have had some words come out clear, trust that your voice is there and ready to work. There is a huge learning curve with the new voice unless you are like IKate and had it nailed from birth.
By the way, all of you voice is still there unless you had Dr Haben's triple, it's just moved up the scale a ways. My male voice should now be a high male voice or a low female voice, I won't know until I do some more playing which won't be for a month or two
Yeah. That's true. Also only having two words didn't afford me much opportunity to experiment with pitch or resonance to see where is comfortable.
And yes I know the whole range should still be there, but moved up. So I meant trying to access low notes that don't exist anymore because the block of my vocal range has been bumped up a notch.
Oh - I would like to see that TV show where they feature Jennys video and talk about voice surgery. Is there a clip of that on youtube? I dont have any access to US television otherwise.
Quote from: anjaq on August 05, 2015, 03:30:35 PM
Oh - I would like to see that TV show where they feature Jennys video and talk about voice surgery. Is there a clip of that on youtube? I dont have any access to US television otherwise.
It will probably show up on YouTube sooner or later... there are also other sources which are available for non-US viewers.
Quote from: Dana88 on August 05, 2015, 01:19:37 PM
So I can speak in 5 days (including today). I couldn't resist earlier and for the first time I used one of my one to two emergency words (I've been silent the rest of the recovery period). I just said "hi" into my voice memos. I wish I didn't do it just cause now it's set off my anxiety. I couldn't tell if it was hoarse or if my voice was trying to access a part of it that no longer exists, or a little bit of both. That said, the timbre definitely sounds more feminine. So now I'm just going to sit tight and be silent again till Monday and try not to obsess too hard.
There are at least two factors at play here. First is the lower range which is now inaccessible and it will take a few tries before your brain gives up and tries not to use it. Second is the swelling. Your vocal folds are still a bit swollen.
For me using the voice the first time felt like more effort but it became easier with each passing day. Today it is pretty much effortless but I still do not push it.
6 weeks post-op and Praat is reading my voice at around 210Hz consistently now. I will see anything from 170-230Hz without really trying. My pitch varies quite a lot (prosody), and I have no idea why. It's just the way I talk and how I've always talked. But it's a good thing since people say I sound naturally feminine and they couldn't tell I was trans by my voice.
My voice is much clearer but there is still breathiness and a hint of raspiness (glottal fry). However, I think I can train the fry out quite easily.
Laughing sounds like any other woman laughing. I am especially happy about that.
On the phone I confuse people who haven't heard me in a while.
The best today was a conf call with a vendor who I had spoken to before in my old voice, actually from terminal 1 at JFK before I boarded my flight to Seoul. I came on, chit chatted for a bit, then the guy said, "okay, so umm, do you know if Kate is going to join us? We're just waiting on her." lol
In a month or two I want to go on a friend's podcast and tell my story. My voice is giving me confidence to do so.
I am very very happy with this result. My voice has opened doors like you would not believe. It is so nice to talk to people and not have half the conversation end up being about my transition and how I'm so "brave" and stuff.
Quote from: iKate on August 05, 2015, 10:02:30 PM
6 weeks post-op and Praat is reading my voice at around 210Hz consistently now. I will see anything from 170-230Hz without really trying. My pitch varies quite a lot (prosody), and I have no idea why. It's just the way I talk and how I've always talked. But it's a good thing since people say I sound naturally feminine and they couldn't tell I was trans by my voice.
My voice is much clearer but there is still breathiness and a hint of raspiness (glottal fry). However, I think I can train the fry out quite easily.
Laughing sounds like any other woman laughing. I am especially happy about that.
On the phone I confuse people who haven't heard me in a while.
The best today was a conf call with a vendor who I had spoken to before in my old voice, actually from terminal 1 at JFK before I boarded my flight to Seoul. I came on, chit chatted for a bit, then the guy said, "okay, so umm, do you know if Kate is going to join us? We're just waiting on her." lol
In a month or two I want to go on a friend's podcast and tell my story. My voice is giving me confidence to do so.
I am very very happy with this result. My voice has opened doors like you would not believe. It is so nice to talk to people and not have half the conversation end up being about my transition and how I'm so "brave" and stuff.
I'm so happy for you. Your voice is already so obviously in the "win" category and it's astonishing to think that it could get even better with more healing time and training. Congrats again!
Quote from: kwala on August 05, 2015, 10:11:45 PM
I'm so happy for you. Your voice is already so obviously in the "win" category and it's astonishing to think that it could get even better with more healing time and training. Congrats again!
What's amazing is that I only got 1/3 suture, whereas Jenny and I think J-Mi got 1/2. But my vocal folds weren't that big to begin with.
Quote from: iKate on August 05, 2015, 10:13:26 PM
What's amazing is that I only got 1/3 suture, whereas Jenny and I think J-Mi got 1/2. But my vocal folds weren't that big to begin with.
Odd question: how do you know you only got the 1/3 suture? Did Dr. Kim tell you? He never told me how much of my vocal cords he was suturing.
Quote from: Dana88 on August 05, 2015, 10:57:26 PM
Odd question: how do you know you only got the 1/3 suture? Did Dr. Kim tell you? He never told me how much of my vocal cords he was suturing.
I asked him during the quick post op check before I went home. It also looks like 1/3.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1188.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz403%2Frjairam%2F1C4220B3-6702-4B99-9FDA-2AF5727A6BF4_zpsvn1lnwu7.jpg&hash=cd6eacc892a0d6ba7a922d441f98a8112530d7d0)
That looks like 1/3. It definitely did not look like Jenny's 1/2. This was 6 days post op before Botox.
So this is my postop:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FOb0F2R3.jpg&hash=9ec7fc0690ef1918f194efff54bc977911ec76b2)
This is when I had a Laryngologist appt last Friday:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FSl2V0ik.jpg&hash=3370e83fcb3f8971412d80b12d7560e394f4398c)
To me it looks closer to 1/3 than 1/2. I suppose I could always email and ask. I'm sure there's record of it.
iKate, this is wonderful - your voice really changed dramatically, you are very lucky :)
I am amazed at how consitent well the healing and the shape of the suture is with Yeson. Thos pictures look all pretty similar and good - same with the one that have been posted earlier and elsewhere. Where it gets interesting though is to take a look at the pictures taken while making a sound, when the vocal folds touch - this really shows then if there are any gaps or irregularities. Of course those can only be taken aber 8 weeks or so. In my case I still have some posterior gap, but the frontal (in the photos that is "down") closure was great, indicating that I dont have any scar tissue obstructing closure of the vocal folds or changing the shape of the commissure, as I have seen it with some other surgery results, for example from Berlin.
My medical certificate said I should follow up with an otolaryngologist in 2 months. So I'm going to ask my GP for a referral when I see her, although Dana did recommend a good one she went to. Not fond of the camera up nose but it would be nice to see how the healing is going.
Quote from: Dana88 on August 05, 2015, 11:18:53 PM
So this is my postop:
To me it looks closer to 1/3 than 1/2. I suppose I could always email and ask. I'm sure there's record of it.
You also don't really show much of an asymmetry as mine did. You should heal pretty good, I think.
I also asked after the surgery how much they sutured. They said it is about 40%, so they can definitely tell you, but will usuall ynot do so unless you ask. They usually also dont give you pictures or the examination, I think - many are not interested in these things, they just want it done and want it to work, so the only spread more detailled information upon request
Quote from: anjaq on August 06, 2015, 03:07:16 PM
I also asked after the surgery how much they sutured. They said it is about 40%, so they can definitely tell you, but will usuall ynot do so unless you ask. They usually also dont give you pictures or the examination, I think - many are not interested in these things, they just want it done and want it to work, so the only spread more detailled information upon request
I understand what you are saying. Dr Haben knew I had been studying the surgery and voice from the exchange we had before surgery and in his visit after surgery in the hospital, he gave me my pictures. The followup visit the next day he pretty freely gave me the 40% number and the 60-80hz gain number. I am not so sure all of that would have come out with somebody who was less interested in what was happening.
Something interesting is happening now. My voice is now fully internalized as my voice. "His" voice is gone and mine is here to stay. But I find that when I think, I hear my voice. I did have a generic female sounding voice before in my head but now it matches my real voice.
Also, I talked to a friend this morning and hearing a male voice was so foreign to me. It's as if I know that I am different.
I think that underscores the importance of having a good, feminine voice. Not only does it help you pass, but it also helps make the authentic you more real to yourself.
I think this is one of the biggest improvements for me - I had a very low pitched, but in most cases identified as female voice before the VFS, now I have a low pitch but up to now always recogniszed as female voice. So it did improve my "passing", I believe. Extensive tests on the phone are still not happening, lets see.
But even if again yesterday I was told my voice did not really change from before the VFS by some people I last met a year ago - there is a difference in my head - to speak in that "alto" female voice now is just happening, if I laugh or am expressing something funny, the pitch naturally goes up in a very feminine range - I have no low timbre and no fear of getting into much lower ranges - the sound of my voice and laughter is just like that of the other women when I am in a circle of women chatting and this really creates a sense of rightfully belonging instead of feeling "different" as it was before. I feel more authentic, more like myself and makes me dare to show behaviour that I woould not have dared before
I could never internalize my voice as mine since puberty, I never liked to hear it but after puberty aaaargh.... I really hope that with training I can at least get by until I can afford this surgery.
Quote from: iKate on August 09, 2015, 12:09:45 AM
Something interesting is happening now. My voice is now fully internalized as my voice. "His" voice is gone and mine is here to stay. But I find that when I think, I hear my voice. I did have a generic female sounding voice before in my head but now it matches my real voice.
Also, I talked to a friend this morning and hearing a male voice was so foreign to me. It's as if I know that I am different.
I think that underscores the importance of having a good, feminine voice. Not only does it help you pass, but it also helps make the authentic you more real to yourself.
Years ago when I started using the mouth voice, it took a little while to lock it in but after years of using it, I found it was near impossible to drop back to the chest voice for some testing I was doing. A couple of months ago when I found the Falsetto voice, I was using it the next day and I locked it in just over a week. My current voice is still pretty unstable changing form day to day so I really can't lock it yet but I know it's going to happen. The issue I already can see is I have lost the clear division lines I had between the voices before and it's pretty easy to work the range between 170hz and 400hz with only a few rough spots in it. It is going to be interesting to see what the final voice is like.
Quote from: anjaq on August 09, 2015, 03:04:47 AM
I think this is one of the biggest improvements for me - I had a very low pitched, but in most cases identified as female voice before the VFS, now I have a low pitch but up to now always recogniszed as female voice. So it did improve my "passing", I believe. Extensive tests on the phone are still not happening, lets see.
But even if again yesterday I was told my voice did not really change from before the VFS by some people I last met a year ago - there is a difference in my head - to speak in that "alto" female voice now is just happening, if I laugh or am expressing something funny, the pitch naturally goes up in a very feminine range - I have no low timbre and no fear of getting into much lower ranges - the sound of my voice and laughter is just like that of the other women when I am in a circle of women chatting and this really creates a sense of rightfully belonging instead of feeling "different" as it was before. I feel more authentic, more like myself and makes me dare to show behaviour that I woould not have dared before
Hi Anja.
The authenticity you mention is something I wanted, but I am very nervous about eventually hearing my voice properly. I make mistakes from time to time, and it really does not sound any different at all at the moment (I'm two weeks after surgery). If the worst does happen, and I get no improvement at all, I wonder if Dr Kim would operate again? Have you ever heard of anyone going back for a second surgery? I wish I had asked him for a 50% suture now, and taken a chance.
Quote from: Teslagirl on August 09, 2015, 05:00:05 PM
Hi Anja.
The authenticity you mention is something I wanted, but I am very nervous about eventually hearing my voice properly. I make mistakes from time to time, and it really does not sound any different at all at the moment (I'm two weeks after surgery). If the worst does happen, and I get no improvement at all, I wonder if Dr Kim would operate again? Have you ever heard of anyone going back for a second surgery? I wish I had asked him for a 50% suture now, and taken a chance.
At two weeks I would be surprised if you actually had a pitch increase. Four to eight weeks minimum is how long it would take. I said a few things by accident 2-3 weeks post op and it was pretty low. Nothing close to what I sound like today.
So just hang tight.
I, too thought, gosh I should have gotten the 1/2 suture but as it turns out I'm just fine with 1/3.
There is, according to legend, one person who went back but she shouted and ripped the suture early on so that doesn't really count.
Quote from: Teslagirl on August 09, 2015, 05:00:05 PM
Hi Anja.
The authenticity you mention is something I wanted, but I am very nervous about eventually hearing my voice properly. I make mistakes from time to time, and it really does not sound any different at all at the moment (I'm two weeks after surgery). If the worst does happen, and I get no improvement at all, I wonder if Dr Kim would operate again? Have you ever heard of anyone going back for a second surgery? I wish I had asked him for a 50% suture now, and taken a chance.
At this point you shouldn't worry. I am just short of 4 weeks and it's only been the last few day that my voice has comfortably moved from the 170hz range to around 200hz. Experimenting I dropped in the chest voice which was 80hz and it has move to 140z where my mouth voice used to be. You could incorrectly controlling the new voice and you are ending up in the wrong range. Control of the new voice is nothing like the old so you can't depend on just a few word to determine that your voice hasn't changed. With the limits off me, I am still not sure of how much improvement I have because the voice still needs another month of healing.
Quote from: Teslagirl on August 09, 2015, 05:00:05 PM
Hi Anja.
The authenticity you mention is something I wanted, but I am very nervous about eventually hearing my voice properly. I make mistakes from time to time, and it really does not sound any different at all at the moment (I'm two weeks after surgery). If the worst does happen, and I get no improvement at all, I wonder if Dr Kim would operate again? Have you ever heard of anyone going back for a second surgery? I wish I had asked him for a 50% suture now, and taken a chance.
Take a deep breath. It takes time. I accidentally used an emergency word two days after I arrived home and there was no pitch increase. Late this past week (week three) I purposely used my two emergency words and recorded it. My natural pitch was already a major third higher than around where I used to sit. But that early sound was no different. Try and be patient and don't assume the worst. Also, short of you ripping the suture, it's physiologically impossible for you to get no pitch increase. The variance in the timing of the pitch increase is only due to how fast and well you heal, mostly surrounding how quick the scar tightens around the sutures and how quick the swelling of your vocal folds goes down. But short of you ripping a suture, you will get a pitch increase.
Where I am now. And yes, it's the rainbow passage. I just wanted it for an exact comparison to my old voice and to others who had the surgery.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1LUAaOtaKDw
Quote from: iKate on August 09, 2015, 06:49:48 PM
Where I am now. And yes, it's the rainbow passage. I just wanted it for an exact comparison to my old voice and to others who had the surgery.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1LUAaOtaKDw
iKate, you sound fantastic!!
Thanks. I really have zero problems with it now and power is coming back rapidly. I do hydrate a lot though. I drink maybe 10-12 glasses of water per day, I think this helps a lot. Keeps things lubricated too.
Month 2 is almost here and I will start the exercises soon.
iKate, this is amazing. You are one of the very lucky ones - fast and great results - no waiting forever for the voice to change and you even already get volume back. Very great. You should do regular recordings and videos - Dr Kim may want to add yours to that of Jenny which he uses for his promotion and consultations ;)
Quote from: Teslagirl on August 09, 2015, 05:00:05 PM
The authenticity you mention is something I wanted, but I am very nervous about eventually hearing my voice properly. I make mistakes from time to time, and it really does not sound any different at all at the moment (I'm two weeks after surgery). If the worst does happen, and I get no improvement at all, I wonder if Dr Kim would operate again? Have you ever heard of anyone going back for a second surgery? I wish I had asked him for a 50% suture now, and taken a chance.
Well two weeks is really too early. I tried and sounded horrible by then. you cannot really fully use your voice and that feeling of authenticity for me mostly comes from involuntary expressions, laughing, etc - all of which is not allowed before week 8 ;) - At week 5-6 I was already noticing that the low undertones are gone, which was good to hear.
So that higher pitches seem to be readily happening when I am saying somethign in surprise or laughing, the other changes are not so much pitch related. My speaking pitch has not changed a lot - it is officially up by 30 Hz, so I am now in the same range I used in daily life by putting in a little effort to increase pitch pre OP. (135 Hz relaxed pre OP vs 160-170 Hz relaxed post op, pre op trained voice with little effort was usually at 140-150 Hz). So the change that is most noticeable for me in normal speaking is the loss of the low undertones, so the way my voice sounds in my head is different - less "rumbling" and such. This makes my voice sound similar to that of other women to my own ears when I speak. I am not even sure how pronounced that difference is perceived by others, but to me it is a big difference.
I am not aware of anyone getting a second surgery of the same type unless something ripped. I know of someone who got a CTA after a glottoplasty that did not work out well - but that was in Germany. And someone I know of is planning to do laser tuning of the vocal chords after glottoplasty to increase the pitch, because her speaking pitch is still low after glottoplasty - but again this is not a Yeson patient. To be honest, I did ask Dr Kim in my 6 month update email now if that option (laser tuning) would be a viable one after his kind of surgery. I am not sure I would do it, but I am just checking options for pitch change. I am happy with the other effects of the surgery so far as I described them, but maybe that massive coughing spell directly after surgery just did not allow my pitch to go as much up as it could have. I guess I should have forgot about the $1500 I would have lost and postponed the surgery by a year or so when I had that cold right before the surgery date and it just barely was over - it probably is what caused that coughing :( - I would love to know if Dr Kim would agree on that, but Jessie always told me that as long as the suture held - and that it did - the coughing in the wake up room should not have done any damage.
Quote from: iKate on August 09, 2015, 06:49:48 PM
Where I am now. And yes, it's the rainbow passage. I just wanted it for an exact comparison to my old voice and to others who had the surgery.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1LUAaOtaKDw
WooHoo!! That is so good! You could do voiceovers!! (A new career beckons?) What do Yeson say? Are they pleased?
Absolutely wonderful result Kate.
Sarah.
Quote from: Teslagirl on August 10, 2015, 11:42:50 AM
WooHoo!! That is so good! You could do voiceovers!! (A new career beckons?) What do Yeson say? Are they pleased?
Absolutely wonderful result Kate.
Sarah.
I'm going to send them one at month 2.
As for voiceovers, LOL! Hey Disney/Pixar, Dreamworks, are you listening? LOL.
Thanks for the kind words. I post these as encouragement for you and others because once you heal it is a totally different world. Like tooooootally different. My confidence is now 10000x what it was, especially. This is the best thing I've done in my transition so far.
Alright! Here she is boys! Here she is girls! Here's one month :).
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1mTgXYD1QQM
I, like iKate decided the Rainbow Passage was tired :P and I recorded the opening paragraph of my favorite book "The Pillars of the Earth." I measured in Praat. My original fundamental frequency was 152hz. This recording was already 195.9hz :D. My voice is still weak and breathy, but I'm already so happy and can't wait to see what the next several weeks bring.
Wooohoo Dana! You're sounding good for 1 month.
Yeson class of 2015, we rock. :)
Quote from: iKate on August 10, 2015, 12:00:35 PM
Wooohoo Dana! You're sounding good for 1 month.
Yeson class of 2015, we rock. :)
Thanks! I'm already so happy. I literally started crying after I opened my mouth. When I was a kid I loved my voice, and when it changed it was my first super bad bout of dysphoria, and it put me on a long road of hating my voice. So to open my mouth and hear even a sliver of what my voice used to be, was amazing. I'm so thankful to Dr. Kim.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: iKate on August 10, 2015, 12:00:35 PM
Wooohoo Dana! You're sounding good for 1 month.
Yeson class of 2015, we rock. :)
Great results Dana88 and iKate
Mean pitch for my latest recording was 195Hz but there is a reason for that. Apparently I am dipping down low in some words, or Praat thinks I am. Nevertheless it sure sounds feminine to me, and I am very happy about how it sounds, numbers be damned.
Quote from: Dana88 on August 10, 2015, 11:55:02 AM
Alright! Here she is boys! Here she is girls! Here's one month :).
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1mTgXYD1QQM
I, like iKate decided the Rainbow Passage was tired :P and I recorded the opening paragraph of my favorite book "The Pillars of the Earth." I measured in Praat. My original fundamental frequency was 152hz. This recording was already 195.9hz :D. My voice is still weak and breathy, but I'm already so happy and can't wait to see what the next several weeks bring.
Marvellous Dana, totally female, just like Kate! Did you have any hint what it might sound like before the one month period was up? Were you totally amazed when you first heard yourself? Dr Kim is brilliant isn't he? And to think voice surgery had such an awful reputation for so many years.
Ok, to comfort Teslagirl, I will post a comparison now of 2-3 weeks post op versus 6 months post op - and really - i had no idea at the 2 week stage as to how it would turn out. I just told myself it will get betterbecause of course after 2 weeks all is swollen, after 4 weeks all is still weak and also swollen. So I began to see how it will be at about week 6 maybe, week 8 was also cool because then I could try out my pitch range and my singing voice and laughter and such.
So, here comes the absolutely horrible recording after 2-3 weeks using my "two words a day":
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1XPp1iLr6vs
And this was yesterday:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0pGMy9c1tjd
Still some hoarseness/breathiness and creakiness to get rid of. But still 6 months to go until healing supposedly is complete.
Quote from: Teslagirl on August 10, 2015, 01:21:25 PM
Marvellous Dana, totally female, just like Kate! Did you have any hint what it might sound like before the one month period was up? Were you totally amazed when you first heard yourself? Dr Kim is brilliant isn't he? And to think voice surgery had such an awful reputation for so many years.
Thanks! And no I did not. As iKate and anjaq can attest, I was terrified. I had one slight mess up early on and my voice sounded the same, just super hoarse but no different in pitch. Then earlier this week I did a recording using my two emergency words and my voice was definitely higher and softer in timbre but it was still very hoarse. Today there's no hoarseness whatsoever and it's even higher then it was a few days ago. Just try to relax :-).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: anjaq on August 10, 2015, 01:37:03 PM
Ok, to comfort Teslagirl, I will post a comparison now of 2-3 weeks post op versus 6 months post op - and really - i had no idea at the 2 week stage as to how it would turn out. I just told myself it will get betterbecause of course after 2 weeks all is swollen, after 4 weeks all is still weak and also swollen. So I began to see how it will be at about week 6 maybe, week 8 was also cool because then I could try out my pitch range and my singing voice and laughter and such.
So, here comes the absolutely horrible recording after 2-3 weeks using my "two words a day":
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1XPp1iLr6vs
And this was yesterday
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0pGMy9c1tjd
Still some hoarseness/breathiness and creakiness to get rid of. But still 6 months to go until healing supposedly is complete.
That's a really massive improvement Anja. Can I ask if you were putting the same degree of effort into both voices?
Thanks,
Sarah.
Well, at week 2, I could barely use the voice to make these words really, so I cannot really compare the effort. Basically both are low effort, but of course in my current voice I do use more projection and resonance and volume - back then this was impossible and I had not enough word allowance on a day to try anything - nor was it allowed. So I just managed to somehow say hello twice, it was barely audible, it was creaky, hoarse, low in pitch - horrible. I just decided to not ever use those two word allowance again and wait until week 5 before I try again.
By that time It was starting to flip between good and very hoarse and broken - pitch went up and down a bit, I had pitch control issues in the beginning, sounding like I exaggerate my intonations because the same muscle control would increase my pitch twice as much as before, so that sounded silly.
I think it took me until about week 8 to somewhat stabilize into a more or less permanently breathy but more stable in pitch voice.
Whats fascinating is that my voice was on some of the early days much clearer than ever since - I guess that was when the Botox still acted - when it was ending to act at month 4, I was getting hoarse and more breathy and had more issues with the voice breaking. Recovery from that still goes on with the Clonazepam and voice therapy and all of that...
Here is a 2 week recording to reassure Sarah and others who may be thinking that the surgery is a failure because they haven't gotten any increase in only 2 weeks.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1QvR4Xpllfy
I say the words, "two weeks."
Notice that it sounds absolutely nothing like what I sound like today.
Quote from: anjaq on August 10, 2015, 03:10:52 AM
To be honest, I did ask Dr Kim in my 6 month update email now if that option (laser tuning) would be a viable one after his kind of surgery. I am not sure I would do it, but I am just checking options for pitch change.
What did he say about laser tuning? Can he do it?
Quote from: anjaq on August 10, 2015, 03:10:52 AM
I am happy with the other effects of the surgery so far as I described them, but maybe that massive coughing spell directly after surgery just did not allow my pitch to go as much up as it could have. I guess I should have forgot about the $1500 I would have lost and postponed the surgery by a year or so when I had that cold right before the surgery date and it just barely was over - it probably is what caused that coughing :( - I would love to know if Dr Kim would agree on that, but Jessie always told me that as long as the suture held - and that it did - the coughing in the wake up room should not have done any damage.
I think that Jessie is right. Remember she has vast experience of many, many patients, and if she's happy, that should give you a lot of reassurance. As for waiting... It's all very well looking at things with the benefit of hindsight, but could you really have waited a year? You'd go mad with anticipation waiting all that while!
Sarah
Quote from: iKate on August 10, 2015, 03:14:31 PM
Here is a 2 week recording to reassure Sarah and others who may be thinking that the surgery is a failure because they haven't gotten any increase in only 2 weeks.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1QvR4Xpllfy
I say the words, "two weeks."
Notice that it sounds absolutely nothing like what I sound like today.
Actually yes, that is massively different from your current results.
I'll try to stay positive and see how it works out. I'm scared to talk right now but as I'm at three weeks, maybe I should make very short recording. I'll think about it.
Sarah.
Quote from: Teslagirl on August 10, 2015, 03:19:35 PM
Actually yes, that is massively different from your current results.
I'll try to stay positive and see how it works out. I'm scared to talk right now but as I'm at three weeks, maybe I should make very short recording. I'll think about it.
Sarah.
Really, just don't. Let it heal! It probably won't make a lick of difference, but why risk it? I only said a few things because my kids were acting up and I did one short test at 2 weeks. Otherwise, silence. And yes, it was hard. I even had a petrol station attendant touching me and I couldn't tell him off, so I just drove off.
Quote from: iKate on August 10, 2015, 03:21:14 PM
Really, just don't. Let it heal! It probably won't make a lick of difference, but why risk it? I only said a few things because my kids were acting up and I did one short test at 2 weeks. Otherwise, silence. And yes, it was hard. I even had a petrol station attendant touching me and I couldn't tell him off, so I just drove off.
Ok, I'll keep quiet.
Yes, staying quiet is really an education into how people who can't speak are treated. People raise their voices, as if they think I'm deaf or perhaps stupid, and say things loudly and exaggeratedly slowly, so I'll get it. They make exaggerated mouth movements as well. If it wasn't embarassing, it would be really funny. There's nothing wrong with my hearing.
I showed a written message in my notebook at my local Co-op store and the woman at the counter said she thought it was a hold-up at first!!
Sarah.
Quote from: Teslagirl on August 10, 2015, 03:29:04 PM
Ok, I'll keep quiet.
Yes, staying quiet is really an education into how people who can't speak are treated. People raise their voices, as if they think I'm deaf or perhaps stupid, and say things loudly and exaggeratedly slowly, so I'll get it. They make exaggerated mouth movements as well. If it wasn't embarassing, it would be really funny. There's nothing wrong with my hearing.
I showed a written message in my notebook at my local Co-op store and the woman at the counter said she thought it was a hold-up at first!!
Sarah.
Oh gosh!
Well me being brown complexion people think I don't speak English. That is completely reversed from when Indian restaurants and gas station owners think I speak Hindi (I don't) and try to talk to me in Hindi. I speak English and Spanish and that's about it.
I had to call Bank of America today... called me miss <male name>. Then proceeded to put me through the security wringer (I was activating a replacement credit card). Surprisingly though, they did not ask if that was "my husband's" credit card as people sometimes do when I hand over the card in person.
Quote from: Teslagirl on August 10, 2015, 03:14:58 PM
1 What did he say about laser tuning? Can he do it?
I have not yet gotten a reply. But I think if it would pose any risk at all, I will not do it. My voice is at a comfortable 170 Hz now, when I am using more inflection its easily at 180 Hz. The male timbre is gone - I think I am doing ok. But I would not decline to get 1-2 semitones pitch increase, which is what can be expected from laser tuning
Quote from: Teslagirl on August 10, 2015, 03:14:58 PM
2 I think that Jessie is right. Remember she has vast experience of many, many patients, and if she's happy, that should give you a lot of reassurance. As for waiting... It's all very well looking at things with the benefit of hindsight, but could you really have waited a year? You'd go mad with anticipation waiting all that while!
True - I would have been such a mess by now, waiting for another half year and then another - no, I wanted this done so badly at that time...
Quote from: Teslagirl on August 10, 2015, 03:14:58 PM
3 Yes, staying quiet is really an education into how people who can't speak are treated. People raise their voices, as if they think I'm deaf or perhaps stupid, and say things loudly and exaggeratedly slowly, so I'll get it. They make exaggerated mouth movements as well. If it wasn't embarassing, it would be really funny. There's nothing wrong with my hearing.
Yes, I found it an interesting and enlightening experience and sort of enjoyed a lot of it, knowing that it was only a temporary thing. I was also not embarrassed about it at all, really.- People were usually really friendly to me.
Naturally a lot assumed I was deaf, as this is often connected to being mute - in some cases it was just some reflex I guess since they first talked to me and then used signs, even though they must have noticed that I understood them very well when they talked to me before they found I could only reply in text ;)
Quote from: Teslagirl on August 10, 2015, 03:14:58 PM
4 I showed a written message in my notebook at my local Co-op store and the woman at the counter said she thought it was a hold-up at first!!
Well, thats USA for you - LOL.
I always used my mobile to text.
I had the "Speech assistant" app installed plus "Swype keyboard", so I could type super fast and then either show the text in largest letters possible on the screen or even use text to speech to let the phone read it for me.
So already on day two, my voice feels exponentially stronger than it did yesterday. Not back to business as usual, but at least now I see the pathway to get there. :-) So happy already!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: anjaq on August 11, 2015, 09:02:43 AM
Well, thats USA for you - LOL.
I always used my mobile to text.
I had the "Speech assistant" app installed plus "Swype keyboard", so I could type super fast and then either show the text in largest letters possible on the screen or even use text to speech to let the phone read it for me.
What? Teslagirl is in the UK...
The weird experiences I've had (apart from the touching/groping incident):
People thinking I don't speak English
People thinking I'm deaf, so they try to sign to me. Hello, I can hear you perfectly, I just can't talk.
People thinking I'm anti social.
Getting repeat phone calls because I'm not returning people's phone calls... it's because I can't talk! Those I can e-mail I e-mail.
And my kids constantly tugging my dress or tapping me because I'm not answering them. :\
However, most people were nice.
Quote from: Dana88 on August 11, 2015, 10:03:32 AM
So already on day two, my voice feels exponentially stronger than it did yesterday. Not back to business as usual, but at least now I see the pathway to get there. :-) So happy already!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes, as I had mentioned it's like an old car that you parked for a month and you're now starting it back. Your voice will get stronger in time. Mine is at a decent volume now and I think I can talk almost as loudly as I did pre-op but I haven't tried. There is literally no discomfort talking at all. However I cannot yet access higher pitches. I haven't tried. That I am waiting on month 2 and exercises.
Quote from: iKate on August 11, 2015, 11:14:15 AM
Yes, as I had mentioned it's like an old car that you parked for a month and you're now starting it back. Your voice will get stronger in time. Mine is at a decent volume now and I think I can talk almost as loudly as I did pre-op but I haven't tried. There is literally no discomfort talking at all. However I cannot yet access higher pitches. I haven't tried. That I am waiting on month 2 and exercises.
...more like parking it for half a year or so - lol - I still need to work on it to get all the volume and clarity back, but it gets better and today after voice therapy I was seriously very happy with my voice - I noticed when I am not holding back, my clarity and also pitch will get better by a bit.
I also waited until week 8 to try pitches. But I was amazed that immediately at that time I was able to go almost to my old peak. I lost maybe 2 notes on top, but I had the impression that it was even easier post op to go in the high pitches than in the lower ones that I would use for speaking. So head voice still is wasier and causes less noise or discomfort than the chest voice.
And sorry about that commetn on Teslagirl and the USA - I did not think properly ;) - Would have been typical for the USA though, but I guess the UK is also a bit like that - people are feeling kind of unsafe and are afraid? I do not believe if I had done that here, someone would thought I was about to rob them. LOL
Quote from: anjaq on August 11, 2015, 02:26:13 PM
And sorry about that commetn on Teslagirl and the USA - I did not think properly ;) - Would have been typical for the USA though, but I guess the UK is also a bit like that - people are feeling kind of unsafe and are afraid? I do not believe if I had done that here, someone would thought I was about to rob them. LOL
Oh, no worries. The note stuff is funny though, because it's true! My mom worked in a bank once and her hairs would raise every time someone handed her a note and didn't say anything. The branch did get robbed a few times. Then another bank bought them and closed them down.
Quote from: Dana88 on August 11, 2015, 10:03:32 AM
So already on day two, my voice feels exponentially stronger than it did yesterday. Not back to business as usual, but at least now I see the pathway to get there. :-) So happy already!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Such an improvement in such a short time Dana. I think you'll definitely be one of the lucky ones. Incidentally, you have a lovely photo. You're very pretty. I don't dare put mine up; not until I can afford a facelift on top of everything else!
Sarah.
Quote from: Teslagirl on August 11, 2015, 04:13:34 PM
Such an improvement in such a short time Dana. I think you'll definitely be one of the lucky ones. Incidentally, you have a lovely photo. You're very pretty. I don't dare put mine up; not until I can afford a facelift on top of everything else!
Sarah.
Thank you ::blushes::
Also! It's not luck. This surgery has a very high success rate and very low complication rate. Don't assume the worst until you can resume speaking.
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Quote from: iKate on August 11, 2015, 02:47:53 PM
Oh, no worries. The note stuff is funny though, because it's true! My mom worked in a bank once and her hairs would raise every time someone handed her a note and didn't say anything. The branch did get robbed a few times. Then another bank bought them and closed them down.
Where I live is really quite staid (though multicultural) and nothing like 1930's Chicago. I think that woman in the shop had been watching too many detective movies...
Lol - yeah - watching too much TV can do that.
QuoteWhat did he say about laser tuning? Can he do it?
I have gotten back the expected answer: They do not recommend it. Actually they think any further surgical procedures at the vocal chords, the voice or trach shave are possibly detrimental for the outcome and can worsen voice quality (so pitch may increase, but voice quality like breathiness and hoarseness or loudness could suffer). So I guess one would have to take the risk upon oneself if one really fels the need to do this and find a surgeon who will do it other than at Yeson.
By the way - I did sent in my 6 month video and they say the F0 is 185 Hz (I assume for the rainbow passage, I got 180 in PRAAT - the freely spoken text is lower, PRAAT says 170 Hz, I do not think they did analyze that part, too) and that I have to work on my female resonance and phonation patterns. This is a bit unexpected, since no one else so far told me I need more work on resonance and female phonation patterns, but I will tell it to my voice therapist as a suggestion. I also am supposed to send in a video of me doing the voice exercises, so they can check if I am doing them correctly, thats nice. Other than that they more or less said to do my exercises and take the pills and wait until the 12 months are over to know the final pitch change.
Praat tends to show some low dips as low as 75Hz for me but that seems like artifacts and that brings down the average. They probably toss those out.
Yes - I set PRAAT to have a cutoff at the low pitches that are just impossible artefacts and usually I dont do a whole-file analysis, but only pick some "clean" sections of the text that show no artefacts to get my values. My voice therapist confirmed my assessment "by ear" (comparing her perception on her piano) and said that I am usually at a F3 when talking (174 Hz), she calls it the "indifference pitch" (meaning not that it is indifferent in gender but that it is my relaxed base pitch) and when I am speaking with some more intonations, like reading or talking about something with a bit more passion, I am at F#3 or even G3 (180-190 Hz) - So I think this is a good result and basically it is what I expected when I planned voice surgery initially. I was a bit surprised when Dr Kim said it will be a F0 of 210 Hz as this was higher than I was hoping for, so I got caught up in that number a bit and was bugged a bit by not reaching it, but looking back at what my initial goals were - to get rid of the male undertones, to speak without thinking about it, to have a good pitch and feminine sound when I am laughing or saying something in surprise and a average pitch in the range of 180-190 Hz, I am pretty close to those :D - Yay! - And in the past days, speaking without thinking has become a lot easier (in part because I was just so busy that I could not think about voice at all for a while and that helped to get me just talking without thinking).
Now all that really has to happen is to get rid of the hoarseness, get some more volume back, train a bit more projection and prosody (voice melody), maybe get a little bit of pitch increase to get from 170 to 180 - and of course learn how to work with that stupid voice break within my speaking range. I think this will be manageable... some of it will just come with time....
Praat shows the dropoff to 75Hz here but I can clearly see the fry and sudden decay.
This is "they act like a prism and form a rainbow.
Average without that steep drop is ~200Hz.
You can also see the ups and downs, so it's not a monotone boring male voice.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1188.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz403%2Frjairam%2Fpostop%25206.5%2520weeks%2520rainbow%2520passage_zpsgj7p60aw.png&hash=220202014a361a9a6c9f5e58ecb8a45a7f846ab2)
Then there is this one, "white light into many beautiful colors."
Goes as high as 289Hz then drops back down to high 190s low 200s.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1188.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz403%2Frjairam%2FScreen%2520Shot%25202015-08-12%2520at%252011.44.01%2520AM_zpsjjvz4q7z.png&hash=116ea2cc00de265d0b30654b82576acbc783c664)
Which audio file goes with that analysis?
I would definitely exclude such drops or places that have vocal fry or hoarseness in them. I would also be careful about very high pitch parts, sometimes it shows some over 300 Hz which are unlikely to be real and more likely to be noise.
Oh and thats the new PRAAT - I still need to get that!
Quote from: anjaq on August 12, 2015, 11:13:52 AM
Which audio file goes with that analysis?
I would definitely exclude such drops or places that have vocal fry or hoarseness in them. I would also be careful about very high pitch parts, sometimes it shows some over 300 Hz which are unlikely to be real and more likely to be noise.
Oh and thats the new PRAAT - I still need to get that!
That's my latest recording.
The high pitch in the last pic is definitely not noise. It's where I say, "into" and the "ih" sound is where it peaks.
Ok - Here is what happens to me:
When I speak without readin of a text, I get this:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F0mXKfeU.png&hash=7de30ad06f91847cc8893d8906989cb95990454b)
or this:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FqLvxJUg.png&hash=45d485e45da87760b04fe2c927558be308c944b4)
Its visibly monotonous and rather low in pitch, in one spot you can see that drop where I happen to use vocal fry and it reads 70 Hz, so that pulls the average down. Without these spots, my average is more in the 165 Hz range.
When I read the rainbow passage, things change:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Flj4acQC.png&hash=a35582239e2d1f903ecb96bb8f2ac08e8093e9cc)
I get more melody, and an overall higher average pitch. Also there is less of these dropoffs.
In this part, you can see what I mean by noise in the upward direction:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fql66Kar.png&hash=4520575ec83fb995ee5067890cc5c7434d05a0f9)
Its just small dots between 300-400 Hz in this case but at times there are several of these very high pitched dots, not sure how much influence they have on the average. They seem to be more sparse than the dropoffs to the low end.
So, my voice is steadily gaining back clarity and strength. Yesterday I was pretty much able to speak normally. There were one or two times that I spoke at length for more than 10 minutes and I felt myself getting weak, but typically if I gave it a rest for 5 minutes or so, I seemed to recover just fine. There's still a little bit of breathiness, but that's also slowly but surely resolving. I did another recording today, this time of the rainbow passage. Without doing anything to speak higher, just speaking at what feels comfortable now, I'm already between 218 and 223 hz! I recorded it three times. Twice it measured 218 and once it measured 223. Anyway! Here's a new recording:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1RFvkGn4VV8
You can hear how much the clarity has improved in only three days :). I could not be happier. I know I've said this before, when I was a kid, and my voice changed, it was so awful and traumatic, that having this taken care of has given me such joy. Also, as Anjaq touched on in an earlier post, the psychological affect cannot be overstated. For the past three days it has been SO nice just to go out and speak without being terrified that I'm going to get clocked because of my voice. Before, in any public setting, I would sit in my car, and try and find a more feminine pitch, or at least get something mildly passable, and then I'd worry about it all day. It's such a mental lift to not have to worry about that anymore.
That is absolutely wonderful. I actually feel the same way about my voice except that it changed much later as a teenager for me. Around 16 is when my voice began to get deep. So this is more of a restorative surgery more than anything.
The best part of this for me, as Anja hinted to was the involuntary sounds. Expressing shock or disbelief is undeniably feminine. As is a sigh, laugh, cough or sneeze, or clearing my throat (which I don't do much due to fear of damage).
I also notice that you don't have as much glottal fry as I do. I do have some and it's a bit annoying so I try to control it. But eventually I hope to train it away. My pre-op voice did have it though.
Quote from: iKate on August 13, 2015, 12:49:22 PM
That is absolutely wonderful. I actually feel the same way about my voice except that it changed much later as a teenager for me. Around 16 is when my voice began to get deep. So this is more of a restorative surgery more than anything.
The best part of this for me, as Anja hinted to was the involuntary sounds. Expressing shock or disbelief is undeniably feminine. As is a sigh, laugh, cough or sneeze, or clearing my throat (which I don't do much due to fear of damage).
I also notice that you don't have as much glottal fry as I do. I do have some and it's a bit annoying so I try to control it. But eventually I hope to train it away. My pre-op voice did have it though.
A restorative surgery is actually the perfect way to put it. And luckily I didn't have much of a problem with glottal fry preop. I did have a problem with sound clarity and a reedy quality to my timbre which wasn't present pre puberty but is definitely still very present postop. I'm hoping to train that out as well.
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This is great to hear you are recovering so quickly. I guess we carry over our voice issues across the surgery and then later have some issues if we had some before. Like the glottal or vocal fry, vocal tremor, gaps where the vocal folds dont close properly - all those things are not directly corrected by the surgery. I hope that some of the issues I had were due to me speaking in a unnatural way for 17 years and that I can now manage to relax those habits away somehow and thus the issues with them also disappear, but its hard to loose old habits. Sometimes, I think it may be easier for those who do the VFS before having spent too many years trying to speak in a female voice all the time.
Definitely the change in puberty was horrible. I was terrified and it was such a horrible thing. I never really dared to speak much at all after that, I was even more quiet and I stopped anything that had to do with music or singing. I used my very low voice to convince others that I am "normal" - maybe I even pushed my voice down even more , using vocal fry and such - because I apparently had one of the lowest voices in my class and this seemed to have saved me from some troubles with bullying. (At the same time this makes me think that the assessment of Dr Kim about my initial F0 was not quite right - A 134 Hz average voice is just in the mid-male range, not at the low end of it, so I guess I just could not "do" my old voice really at the assessment)
I consider all of the surgeries and treatments reconstructive. The voice has to be reconstructed, my genitalia have to be reconstructed (even though I know they changed away from the "right" state even before I was born), hormone therapy is reconstructing my body overall, if I ever get FFS, it will basically also be reconstructing my face from the effects of testosterone and DHT. Overall, this whole thing about surgeries and medical procedures to me is about reconstructing my body as close to how it should have been as possible, to match it as good as it can to my brain body map.
Quote from: anjaq on August 13, 2015, 03:46:05 PM
I consider all of the surgeries and treatments reconstructive. The voice has to be reconstructed, my genitalia have to be reconstructed (even though I know they changed away from the "right" state even before I was born), hormone therapy is reconstructing my body overall, if I ever get FFS, it will basically also be reconstructing my face from the effects of testosterone and DHT. Overall, this whole thing about surgeries and medical procedures to me is about reconstructing my body as close to how it should have been as possible, to match it as good as it can to my brain body map.
This is very true. I've definitely considered both FFS and SRS reconstructive surgeries.
Also, Teslagirl! I was looking back at some of your old posts and counted that you're just about at the four week mark. Are you allowed to speak yet/how are you doing?
A few days until 2 months. I'm so glad I can start the exercises soon!
Quote from: iKate on August 18, 2015, 08:29:39 PM
A few days until 2 months. I'm so glad I can start the exercises soon!
Yay! Congrats!!! I got three weeks to go :-).
I loved that 2 months mark - you can fully try out your new voice, play with the scales and the high end notes and being a bit louder or singing. Its fun. I loved it better than 6 weeks later actually when the stupid Botox was wearing off and I had to struggle more. I think I am just now at the 6 months mark about where I was at the 8 weeks mark in some voice parameters - but definitely loudness/volume and clarity has improved massively since then. The main dip I had about the botox was pitch instability and increased hoarseness from month 3.5 which then gradually improved again.
Quote from: Dana88 on August 18, 2015, 10:50:03 AM
Also, Teslagirl! I was looking back at some of your old posts and counted that you're just about at the four week mark. Are you allowed to speak yet/how are you doing?
Hello Dana.
Yes it's four weeks yesterday. I had to talk a bit because it was the only way to negotiate all the things I needed to do to send money to Thailand. My voice is very quiet and weak, but apart from that I can't say it's any different from my previous voice. I'm not down about it, but resigned I suppose. At least it wasn't a disaster and I still have a voice. Dr Kim said it may take quite a while to see any pitch increase, so there's still some hope. I would have loved a radical rapid change like some of the other girls, but sadly, it doesn't seem I will get that. When I can raise the money, I'll have another larygoscopy to see the condition of my vocal folds.
Thanks for thinking of me.
Sarah.
I am about due for one. (Laryngoscopy.) Doesn't the NHS pay for it though?
Don't be discouraged. People heal at different rates and age and other factors come into play. But you will get an increase. I swell less because of my diet apparently, which has probably helped me get my pitch increase faster.
Now I can't be called "sir" strictly by my voice even if I tried.
Sarah - 4 weeks is a bit early - plus you havenot used your voice for a long time, so its "rusty". Try to talk small amounts each day for a week and try how it feels like to go up or down in pitch. I had the issue in the first weeks that I was still subconsciously using the same pitch that I was used to. I still do that a lot because the feedback tells me that this is where my voice "normally" always was. What helps, is to start doing the exercises after week 8 to expand and try out the vocal range and find the new "sweet spot". What may help now already is to seriously shut down listening to your voice (make some noise in the ears, put on headphones with techno music on or whatever) and then just try and start reading something - the rainbow passage or something else and record it - or take away the noise suddenly while you are in mid sentence and then listen. I found that when the feedback is gone and I use a relaxed voice, it was definitely higher in pitch than when I normally spoke.
Another thing is - I dont know what you are comparing it with. If you compare it to your old "trained voice", there may be little or no difference in pitch and only some in the way the voice sounds. So see the pitch increase you would have to compare your relaxed voice now with the relaxed ("male") voice pre op. For me, my relaxed voice now is just a little bit higher than my pre op trained voice - but its seriously relaxed and comes readily, not after thinking about it or secretly trying with an "umm" to see if the pitch is right ...
I bet there is a way to get a laryngoscopy on NHS cost, isn't there? They can at least justify it somehow with laryngitis or something else, if they can't put in voice surgery as a reason for accounting... my post op examinations were so far all done with our health system, not sure if this will work out properly, but why not - I was there for regular checks to see if my voice training would progress well even before the VFS - in fact they had to do the esamination to prescribe me the voice therapy (also on medical healthcare)
Insurance here in the USA will cover mine for sure.
Quote from: iKate on August 19, 2015, 08:42:25 AM
I am about due for one. (Laryngoscopy.) Doesn't the NHS pay for it though?
Yes, I can go on a waiting list to see the consultant I saw before. If I pay (£250 ish) it's faster.
Quote from: iKate on August 19, 2015, 08:42:25 AM
Don't be discouraged. People heal at different rates and age and other factors come into play. But you will get an increase. I swell less because of my diet apparently, which has probably helped me get my pitch increase faster.
Now I can't be called "sir" strictly by my voice even if I tried.
You must feel wonderful to always be correctly gendered by voice now. I was usually OK pre-op although a lot of that was due to the confidence which comes from having socially transitioned so long ago. The last time I was misgendered was when I was having a 'robust' discussion with an aggressive motorist. I must have momentarily lost control of my voice.
Anyhow I'll let you know how things go.
Sarah.
For example, I just had a plumber and an electrician doing some repairs here. They gendered me correctly, used my correct name despite my dead name being on the cheque I paid them with. You could tell their reaction was different to how I would be treated as a male. That alone made this surgery absolutely priceless. Next year I want to do my FFS and in 2017 my SRS. But socially I do agree with you. You have a huge head start and I've found that confidence will carry you very far even if one doesn't look 100%. My voice has given me that confidence.
And as is not the case with training, my new pitch carries across with no effort to multiple languages (as it has done for Anja) and accents. I have two languages and two accents I talk with in English, depending on who I talk to.
Quote from: anjaq on August 19, 2015, 09:56:51 AM
Sarah - 4 weeks is a bit early - plus you havenot used your voice for a long time, so its "rusty". Try to talk small amounts each day for a week and try how it feels like to go up or down in pitch. I had the issue in the first weeks that I was still subconsciously using the same pitch that I was used to. I still do that a lot because the feedback tells me that this is where my voice "normally" always was. What helps, is to start doing the exercises after week 8 to expand and try out the vocal range and find the new "sweet spot". What may help now already is to seriously shut down listening to your voice (make some noise in the ears, put on headphones with techno music on or whatever) and then just try and start reading something - the rainbow passage or something else and record it - or take away the noise suddenly while you are in mid sentence and then listen. I found that when the feedback is gone and I use a relaxed voice, it was definitely higher in pitch than when I normally spoke.
I haven't talked much but the one thing I have noticed is that I can't go low anymore, my voice just fades out to nothing if I try. I'll give that feedback technique a try and see how I sound.
Quote from: anjaq on August 19, 2015, 09:56:51 AM
Another thing is - I dont know what you are comparing it with. If you compare it to your old "trained voice", there may be little or no difference in pitch and only some in the way the voice sounds. So see the pitch increase you would have to compare your relaxed voice now with the relaxed ("male") voice pre op. For me, my relaxed voice now is just a little bit higher than my pre op trained voice - but its seriously relaxed and comes readily, not after thinking about it or secretly trying with an "umm" to see if the pitch is right ...
I think I'm comparing it with my trained voice. I've been doing it so long, that I have no idea what my original 'untrained' voice sounded like. Even when Dr Kim asked me to speak in a relaxed voice, I couldn't do it and he said he thought it was probably lower; he estimated 180Hz, but there was no way I could relax and talk that low.
Quote from: anjaq on August 19, 2015, 09:56:51 AM
I bet there is a way to get a laryngoscopy on NHS cost, isn't there? They can at least justify it somehow with laryngitis or something else, if they can't put in voice surgery as a reason for accounting... my post op examinations were so far all done with our health system, not sure if this will work out properly, but why not - I was there for regular checks to see if my voice training would progress well even before the VFS - in fact they had to do the esamination to prescribe me the voice therapy (also on medical healthcare)
Yes, as I said to Kate, if I'm willing to wait, I could probably get referred again to the consultant I saw before.
Thanks so much as always for all your wise advice. I have no trans friends and it's easy to get into a state of mind where I only see the dark side of things. It's good to hear the opposite sometimes.
Quote from: iKate on August 19, 2015, 03:11:49 PM
For example, I just had a plumber and an electrician doing some repairs here. They gendered me correctly, used my correct name despite my dead name being on the cheque I paid them with. You could tell their reaction was different to how I would be treated as a male. That alone made this surgery absolutely priceless. Next year I want to do my FFS and in 2017 my SRS. But socially I do agree with you. You have a huge head start and I've found that confidence will carry you very far even if one doesn't look 100%. My voice has given me that confidence.
Getting confidence is so important, and wonderful that Dr Kim's surgery can give you that. It certainly beats taking years to develop it!
Quote from: iKate on August 19, 2015, 03:11:49 PM
And as is not the case with training, my new pitch carries across with no effort to multiple languages (as it has done for Anja) and accents. I have two languages and two accents I talk with in English, depending on who I talk to.
Do you know who you're going to for FFS and SRS? It's taken me so long to get around to all the surgery that timescales of a year or so seem so fast, but I really think it's better to get on with it as soon as you can if you know who you are.
Quote from: Teslagirl on August 19, 2015, 03:45:41 PM
Do you know who you're going to for FFS and SRS? It's taken me so long to get around to all the surgery that timescales of a year or so seem so fast, but I really think it's better to get on with it as soon as you can if you know who you are.
I'm on the fence about it but I'm looking to do a consult with facial team. For SRS I'm not really sure. I am looking now though. Suporn, Bowers and McGinn are at the top of my list. Bowers has a 2 year waiting list (almost). That's why I said I was planning for 2017.
I have reasons for moving relatively fast. It has to do with what I plan to do after all is said and done, job wise etc and how much stealth I want.
Quote from: Teslagirl on August 19, 2015, 03:45:41 PM
Getting confidence is so important, and wonderful that Dr Kim's surgery can give you that. It certainly beats taking years to develop it!
Do you know who you're going to for FFS and SRS? It's taken me so long to get around to all the surgery that timescales of a year or so seem so fast, but I really think it's better to get on with it as soon as you can if you know who you are.
I'm going to Facial Team in October for FFS (just slightly over two months away :-X), and then I'm going to Suporn for SRS in February :-).
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Quote from: Teslagirl on August 19, 2015, 03:35:39 PM
I haven't talked much but the one thing I have noticed is that I can't go low anymore, my voice just fades out to nothing if I try. I'll give that feedback technique a try and see how I sound.
Well, this already gives you a hint that it worked - if you cannot go low anymore, it means something has changed :)
The feedback thing may possibly not work on you, if your original voice was already very much elevated and it was so natural for you - in that case it can be that the changes are different. But try.
QuoteI think I'm comparing it with my trained voice. I've been doing it so long, that I have no idea what my original 'untrained' voice sounded like. Even when Dr Kim asked me to speak in a relaxed voice, I couldn't do it and he said he thought it was probably lower; he estimated 180Hz, but there was no way I could relax and talk that low.
What was the result of Dr Kims analysis of your pre op trained and "untrained" voice? If your "untrained" voice was higher than 180 Hz so that Dr Kim estimated it to be lower than that , but still estimated it at 180 Hz, thats pretty crazy as it is all in the female range already! In that case you might either really get a more girly voice way above 200 Hz , but you definitely should get the benefit of the voice sounding differently.
For me it was totally different numbers, my trained voice was at about 185 Hz according to Dr Kims analysis, the best "low voice" I could do was about 135 Hz in his analysis. I personally believe that my original voice was more like maybe 110 Hz, but I could not let go , psychologically - not after almost 20 years of not using that low voice anymore. You know the problem even moreso. My relaxed trained voice that I used everyday was in the middle - about 150 Hz. So the surgery brought me to 170-190 Hz as my relaxed pitch without doing really anything. So what basically happened is that I still have the same pitch that I used sometimes pre op - not much change that is perceived by others - going from 160-180 to 170-190 on average. But the differences are - it costs me zero effort, not even subconscious effort I believe, to do that voice, the sound of the voice is more natural and not distorted by subconsciously using muscle power to raise pitch all the time, also the timbre has changed and there are no more low pitched undertones. The highs are much much easier to reach and I actually have to watch out not to "squeak" too much (going very high in pitch when I am getting excited or angry about something or when I am surprised).
So to describe the result of this surgery as simply raising the pitch of your pre op spoken voice is totally misleading in a way. Especially if you already had a good and high pitched trained voice before.
There is no low fade for me just a sharp cutoff, like how a high pass filter works. When I'm talking I feel like I'm talking through a cardboard tube sometimes. I don't have that deep chesty bass anymore. But I'm getting used to it.
Quote from: iKate on August 20, 2015, 07:46:23 AM
There is no low fade for me just a sharp cutoff, like how a high pass filter works. When I'm talking I feel like I'm talking through a cardboard tube sometimes. I don't have that deep chesty bass anymore. But I'm getting used to it.
For me it's a bit more of a fade. My voice gets progressively weaker and breathier sounding, like when a cis-woman's voice bottoms out, as it gets closer to to the D below a woman's middle C, which is where it bottoms out completely. It barely resonates at the D and then then I'm not capable of going any lower. I start to lose resonance at around an F below middle C. Just for comparison's sake, my voice used to bottom out at the Eb below a men's middle C, so that's a change of almost an entire octave so far.
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Quote from: Dana88 on August 20, 2015, 12:44:42 PM
For me it's a bit more of a fade. My voice gets progressively weaker and breathier sounding, like when a cis-woman's voice bottoms out, as it gets closer to to the D below a woman's middle C, which is where it bottoms out completely. It barely resonates at the D and then then I'm not capable of going any lower. I start to lose resonance at around an F below middle C. Just for comparison's sake, my voice used to bottom out at the Eb below a men's middle C, so that's a change of almost an entire octave so far.
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I can't say mine is the same, but I'm not so sure. I should do some measurement. I'm an engineer and I'm seriously slacking, I know... On the bright side engineers also break stuff so... :)
Quote from: iKate on August 20, 2015, 12:46:43 PM
I can't say mine is the same, but I'm not so sure. I should do some measurement. I'm an engineer and I'm seriously slacking, I know... On the bright side engineers also break stuff so... :)
Haha. I'm a musician, and I sing (though not professionally, just for composer demos to give to professional singers :-P). So it's been hard to resist not testing my range till after the 8 week mark. I haven't tested the high end at all. The low end I just lightly and carefully hummed down from middle C to test it and I'm gonna leave it be now till the 8 week mark.
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Well it's officially 8 weeks post op. I'm going to start my exercises tonight.
Quote from: iKate on August 20, 2015, 08:07:19 PM
Well it's officially 8 weeks post op. I'm going to start my exercises tonight.
iKate and I had a wonderful lunch date in NYC today. She sounds great :-).
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Quote from: Dana88 on August 21, 2015, 06:32:07 PM
iKate and I had a wonderful lunch date in NYC today. She sounds great :-).
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Thanks! As do you and you look gorgeous!
Hi Vfs thread readers,
If anyone else is going to have VFS during Sept 21 - Oct 1, and is interested in mutual support, please let me know. I am going alone. I am excited, petrified and a bit claustrophobic. Here is a link to my pre-surgery post. I am 52 years old... so older than average patient.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoOsa6dtZT4&feature=youtu.be
Kind regards, Danielle
Quote from: iKate on August 20, 2015, 08:07:19 PM
Well it's officially 8 weeks post op. I'm going to start my exercises tonight.
I just looked at the exercises at Yeson's site and almost all of them are used by singers to warm up and strengthen voice. When I have time and I'm alone I do most of these exercises and they help me to some extent even without surgery.
Quote from: misty2 on August 22, 2015, 02:31:21 AM
Hi Vfs thread readers,
If anyone else is going to have VFS during Sept 21 - Oct 1, and is interested in mutual support, please let me know. I am going alone. I am excited, petrified and a bit claustrophobic. Here is a link to my pre-surgery post. I am 52 years old... so older than average patient.
Hi Danielle.
There have been older patients. I believe even 65 year old Caitlyn Jenner is considering it (provided she can stay out of jail).
I went with my mom but if I had gone alone I would have been fine. But it's nice to have the support.
Seoul is a safe place. Enjoy.
Quote from: misty2 on August 22, 2015, 02:31:21 AM
Hi Vfs thread readers,
If anyone else is going to have VFS during Sept 21 - Oct 1, and is interested in mutual support, please let me know. I am going alone. I am excited, petrified and a bit claustrophobic. Here is a link to my pre-surgery post. I am 52 years old... so older than average patient.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoOsa6dtZT4&feature=youtu.be
Kind regards, Danielle
Hello Danielle.
You've nothing to worry about! I'm older than you and I felt the same sense of trepidation, but in the end I really enjoyed the whole experience! I can guide you through everything you need to know. I was on my own as well but it was really wonderful in the end. Which country are you traveling from?
Sarah.
Quote from: iKate on August 21, 2015, 07:18:35 PM
Thanks! As do you and you look gorgeous!
Thank you! :-)
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Doing some praat analysis now I am consistently above 200Hz. There are dips to 180ish but generally 200-260Hz is where I speak.
Volume and clarity is WAY better. Going to do a recording later after I've finished housework.
Thank you. I am traveling from the U.S. I will be staying at the Hotel La Casa Seoul. - Danielle
For weeks 2-4, two words is the maximum. What are the best two words to plan on using? "Help"? I fear I will end up saying "Good Morning" and then be done for the rest of the day! LOL.
Quote from: misty2 on August 23, 2015, 06:23:35 PM
For weeks 2-4, two words is the maximum. What are the best two words to plan on using? "Help"? I fear I will end up saying "Good Morning" and then be done for the rest of the day! LOL.
It is best to just stay silent. Dr Kim told me "best stay silent." Save those words for an emergency. The month will fly by before you know it and you don't want to mess up your surgery result.
Quote from: iKate on August 23, 2015, 07:23:30 PM
It is best to just stay silent. Dr Kim told me "best stay silent." Save those words for an emergency. The month will fly by before you know it and you don't want to mess up your surgery result.
Yeah, Dr. Kim says that he really means it when he says 1-2 "emergency" words, and much prefers you stay completely silent for the full four weeks. I messed up twice in the week 2-4 period (and actually once in week 1). Once in week two I lifted up my phone and said Siri like an idiot, and once my brother was being a backseat driver and pointed a stop sign out to me and I just explained "I see!" You WILL have accidents. Everyone does. Better to leave your emergency words to cover those than use them willy nilly.
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So! I'll admit... I'm a little concerned... Today (admittedly after some use) my voice felt tired. I started using it sparingly, and then eventually even though I was using it sparingly, it started to feel considerably lower to me. I curiously managed to carefully and softly hum down to an Ab below a woman's low C (a full augmented fourth lower than I was capable of two days ago), and then when I measured in Praat, I was at 201 hz, when I had been consistently at around 220-225 hz for over a week. Have other people had drastic swings in their range in the 4-8 week period, or did I do something to my voice unknowingly that would account for this?
Though also, I had gotten used to my voice sounding so high that it sounded DRASTICALLY lower to me, like I thought it sounded like my old male voice, and then when I used praat it was still higher than the first day I started talking again and still a 45 hz increase from my old male pitch, which at least made me feel a liiiiitttttle better.
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I can just repeat what Jessie from Yeson kept telling me.
* Pitch stability is not at all given throughout the healing period and can occur up to 12 months post op [meaning that pitch can go up and down and it may be hard to hold a note at one given pitch until all is really healed and settled]
* From day 7 to the end of week 4, only use 1-2 words a day, if you really must [for me this meant I did just stay in the mute mode I was in during the first week but stopped worrying what would happen if I accidentially spoke a word or two in some situation. Also I used those two words once to check if I see any changes (which was stupid, as I did feel like I did not have success in surgery after that test). I think it is useless to try and use these words for anything meaningful. Maybe tell someone to "stop" something that is endangering you or therelike. But using them for saying "hello" or "bye" seems like a waste to me]
There are times my pitch will dip. I notice various psychological things will trigger it, such as having to get the kids to pay attention to me. I can't shout but I have to raise my voice a bit. I use more hand gestures as well. It won't dip as low as preop though, but it goes down a bit, I would say down to 170-180Hz.
My voice doesn't get that tired but I do get phlegm which I have to clear, as you may have noticed.
Also, I noticed a huge difference between month 1 and month 2. I did regain power and clarity in month 1 but that is on a whole new level with month 2 in the rear view mirror. The exercises do help but I think in general things are stabilizing.
Oh, and I really don't take much pitch readings with Praat anymore. Real world feedback is fine, and I haven't been gendered male once since I started talking again. I also don't pay attention to my voice anymore. I just talk. I would say just relax and work on the exercises when you reach month 2.
Quote from: iKate on August 24, 2015, 09:44:43 AM
There are times my pitch will dip. I notice various psychological things will trigger it, such as having to get the kids to pay attention to me. I can't shout but I have to raise my voice a bit. I use more hand gestures as well. It won't dip as low as preop though, but it goes down a bit, I would say down to 170-180Hz.
My voice doesn't get that tired but I do get phlegm which I have to clear, as you may have noticed.
Also, I noticed a huge difference between month 1 and month 2. I did regain power and clarity in month 1 but that is on a whole new level with month 2 in the rear view mirror. The exercises do help but I think in general things are stabilizing.
Oh, and I really don't take much pitch readings with Praat anymore. Real world feedback is fine, and I haven't been gendered male once since I started talking again. I also don't pay attention to my voice anymore. I just talk. I would say just relax and work on the exercises when you reach month 2.
Yeah, that makes me feel better. It didn't drop back down to preop, nor even as low as when I first started talking again which was 195.9. I'm just not gonna measure on praat till I'm well into month two.
My voice actually got gendered as male on the phone the other day when I was sitting around 225 hz. My parents were sitting with me and were completely flabbergasted. They were like, I can't imagine anyone hearing you and thinking that's a man's voice. That was also the day I had a meeting with an agent who was like, "Can I ask you something and I hope this isn't rude?" And when I said yes she was like "Your voice sounds 100% female, how do you do that?" Soooooo maybe the phone thing was just a fluke, but it was a little unsettling... Especially considering how high my voice was sitting.
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Hmm. Yeah I haven't been gendered male once. I called the credit union and they referred to me as "Miss <male name>" which was funny.
Beats me though, you sound 100% like a woman.
What kind of phone call was it - did they know about your previous name or "history" in some way? Could they somehow be in a situation where they were assuming to talk to a guy and were just not prepared to speak to a woman suddenly?
I sometimes get mail to "Mr <female name>" from people who do not know anything about the whole thing, they just forgot to switch the gender field in their software that churns out those advertisement paper mail things or that produces bills for companies I ordered something from. So those are just flukes.
Oh btw the pitch drop doesn't result in me being gendered male. It still sounds female.
I do agree with the computer theory. For example, in my Delta Airlines skymiles account (the airline, not Amex) I changed my gender to female yet it still has "Mr" in the salutation field. It's female because my driver license is female, but it has my male name. When I do get the official name change I'm going to call them and change the salutation too.
Navy FCU has "Mr" on my online account but when I call them they call me "miss <lastname>" or once the person called me "miss <male name>" which was hilarious. Same thing with USAA.
Bank of America flat out asked me if I was <male name> or his wife. I'm closing that card with them as I am weaning myself off the big banks.
Quote from: anjaq on August 24, 2015, 10:45:19 AM
What kind of phone call was it - did they know about your previous name or "history" in some way? Could they somehow be in a situation where they were assuming to talk to a guy and were just not prepared to speak to a woman suddenly?
I sometimes get mail to "Mr <female name>" from people who do not know anything about the whole thing, they just forgot to switch the gender field in their software that churns out those advertisement paper mail things or that produces bills for companies I ordered something from. So those are just flukes.
I had placed an order on grub hub using my female name. The order was super late which is why I called. That said, it was an order for my whole family and I paid for it using my dad's credit card, which obviously is a male name. So maybe that was it. It was quite odd and disconcerting when it happened. This was actually the evening of the day I saw you iKate.
In other news, I couldn't resist one more praat test, and already this morning it was back up to 212 hz. My voice still feels a bit tired from use yesterday. So I think I just got a bit hoarse and that is what accounts for the seemingly sudden lowering in pitch.
I've just got to share a happy validating day with you! For some reason, even though I didn't think first my ffs and then my vfs has had much of an effect, just lately, (the last few days) I've had a remarkable degree of confidence. I went to the hospital to see a consultant about a hernia I have and on the way back stopped at a little out of the way gift shop to buy some lovely heart shaped filigree candle holders. I've been growing my hair more and was unusually girly for me, with a flower in my hair. The man serving in the shop was an absolute darling and kept calling me 'sweetheart' which I think is so lovely. I haven't been called that for years! Then he went out of his way to wrap my purchases in beautiful way, taking time to choose particularly feminine decorated gift bags for me. Now I don't know if it's the confidence or actually whether Dr Kim's and Dr Ousterhout's work have actually helped, but I left the shop feeling so authentic and far more of a woman than I usually do. Perhaps being girly really does work? I'm usually more off a jeans and tee-shirt girl. I saw some research which said the happiest couples are where the partners are quite different, such as a girly girl and a macho man. Does it blow my feminist credentials if I say perhaps I ought to do more of this sort of thing?
Maybe my voice really has improved and that's what he was responding to? I'll do recordings when I feel a little more confident.
Sarah.
Congrats! I will freely admit to not being a feminist, when it comes to guys doing stuff for me. :)
Quote from: Teslagirl on August 24, 2015, 05:00:02 PM
I've just got to share a happy validating day with you! For some reason, even though I didn't think first my ffs and then my vfs has had much of an effect, just lately, (the last few days) I've had a remarkable degree of confidence. I went to the hospital to see a consultant about a hernia I have and on the way back stopped at a little out of the way gift shop to buy some lovely heart shaped filigree candle holders. I've been growing my hair more and was unusually girly for me, with a flower in my hair. The man serving in the shop was an absolute darling and kept calling me 'sweetheart' which I think is so lovely. I haven't been called that for years! Then he went out of his way to wrap my purchases in beautiful way, taking time to choose particularly feminine decorated gift bags for me. Now I don't know if it's the confidence or actually whether Dr Kim's and Dr Ousterhout's work have actually helped, but I left the shop feeling so authentic and far more of a woman than I usually do. Perhaps being girly really does work? I'm usually more off a jeans and tee-shirt girl. I saw some research which said the happiest couples are where the partners are quite different, such as a girly girl and a macho man. Does it blow my feminist credentials if I say perhaps I ought to do more of this sort of thing?
Maybe my voice really has improved and that's what he was responding to? I'll do recordings when I feel a little more confident.
Sarah.
Yay! Glad to hear this story :-). That's wonderful. And hey, I'm kinda a girly girl. Love getting dolled up, doing my hair and makeup, feeling feminine. I don't think being feminine or girly is adverse to being a feminist in any way whatsoever ;-). I certainly count myself as both things.
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Quote from: Teslagirl on August 24, 2015, 05:00:02 PM
. Now I don't know if it's the confidence or actually whether Dr Kim's and Dr Ousterhout's work have actually helped, but I left the shop feeling so authentic and far more of a woman than I usually do.
It goes together. I am way more confident now that my voice changed - I dont feel like it is just about to betray me anymore. So I allow myself more and hold back less when it comes to a lot of things
QuotePerhaps being girly really does work? I'm usually more off a jeans and tee-shirt girl.
I totally understand. For me it was the same - Shirts and pants all the time, not too much girly stuff, but this year things change - part of it is because of the voice thing and part is because of weight loss, but I actually probably wore feminine clothes like skirts and dresses more often this year than in the rest of my life and same thing goes for other stuff - using makeup, my behaviour changed - its very interesting to see what a boost in confidence can do for oneself :D - and suddenly one actually wants to do some of the girly things that one kept pushing away as being too girly, too feminine for oneself. And its kind of fun.
Most days I do not have time to get made up, dolled up, etc because I have to be out the door by 6:15 and get complaining and nagging if I'm out after 6:30. But the days that I can and I do, I enjoy it.
Since going full time I have been a ton more girly. I used to mostly wear pants but I haven't worn a pair of pants to work in a while. The voice does indeed help, and it helps with confidence because I don't have to worry about it outing me. Sydney_nyc and I were having breakfast the other day and she commented on that, that I am much more confident.
I also have a nagging facial hair problem that I need to address. I had laser last week and I'm slowly waiting for the shedding, but I also exfoliate with an Olay Pro-X. I have some skin issues from prior electrolysis and just bad skin care too. I may look at some procedure to fix it sooner or later. But meanwhile i have this raised shadow, oh my god. However with my voice it's much less of a concern.
This morning for sure I thought I got clocked, when this guy selling bus tickets for the tourist buses started staring at me. I looked back and he said, "tickets for the bus, miss?" I told him I work here and I'm not a tourist. He said, "everyone is a tourist here, anyway have a good day." Still don't know if I was clocked but it didn't really bother me.
Quote from: iKate on August 25, 2015, 09:27:48 AM
Most days I do not have time to get made up, dolled up, etc because I have to be out the door by 6:15 and get complaining and nagging if I'm out after 6:30. But the days that I can and I do, I enjoy it.
Since going full time I have been a ton more girly. I used to mostly wear pants but I haven't worn a pair of pants to work in a while. The voice does indeed help, and it helps with confidence because I don't have to worry about it outing me. Sydney_nyc and I were having breakfast the other day and she commented on that, that I am much more confident.
I also have a nagging facial hair problem that I need to address. I had laser last week and I'm slowly waiting for the shedding, but I also exfoliate with an Olay Pro-X. I have some skin issues from prior electrolysis and just bad skin care too. I may look at some procedure to fix it sooner or later. But meanwhile i have this raised shadow, oh my god. However with my voice it's much less of a concern.
This morning for sure I thought I got clocked, when this guy selling bus tickets for the tourist buses started staring at me. I looked back and he said, "tickets for the bus, miss?" I told him I work here and I'm not a tourist. He said, "everyone is a tourist here, anyway have a good day." Still don't know if I was clocked but it didn't really bother me.
From having met you in person, the facial hair issue is not nearly as bad as you think it is, especially considering you had just had a laser session and hadn't shed yet. And you were DEF gendered as female by both the waitresses who kept on saying "ladies" to both of us.
And yeah, the biggest thing with my voice is definitely confidence also. I used to be so nervous every time I opened my mouth in public places that I was gonna get clocked because of it. When I was with friends who know I'm trans that I wasn't concerned about getting clocked with, if we were out and about publicly, I'd still speak softly out of fear that people around us would hear my voice and clock me. Now, I just talk :-). And it's so freeing.
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Thanks. :)
I had skipped on laser for a while because of the whole Yeson thing. My last session before this one was 2 weeks before I left. I couldn't talk to make an appointment, plus I had bad timing when calling as the person who normally does my laser had to teach an electrolysis class. This was session #5 and the card they have is numbered up to 10, so I have 5 to go I guess but she really hit it hard this time hence the extra swelling.
Yeah, as I comparison, I started laser before I started HRT (also obviously complexion wise I was suited to it, having pale skin and dark brown facial hair). I have now had 11 laser sessions. At this point it's FINALLY gotten all it's gonna get. I only have white vellus hairs left on my cheeks and neck, and then I have some coarse hairs in the goatee area, but they're all white so it takes several days of not shaving before they're even apparent. I'm starting electrolysis on what's left on Tuesday next week. Laser is a bitch and it just takes time. For me I saw the biggest difference at first between sessions 2 and 3 and then again between sessions 8 and 9. Just hang in there :-).
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Month 2, normal speech.
Trying to get a good recording, away from noise, screaming kids and distractions. I'll post up one soon. :)
Meanwhile here is Praat for me in normal conversation. 219Hz avg (taking out the low dip at the end) and 288 max, which isn't noise or artifacts. It's actually prosody.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1188.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz403%2Frjairam%2FScreen%2520Shot%25202015-08-25%2520at%252012.57.20%2520PM_zps56yvay5e.png&hash=d2a1a04aaed20fe89fa0faa4b0e204d7dca7a31d)
Quote from: iKate on August 23, 2015, 12:20:58 PM
Doing some praat analysis now I am consistently above 200Hz. There are dips to 180ish but generally 200-260Hz is where I speak.
Volume and clarity is WAY better. Going to do a recording later after I've finished housework.
That's great Kate; looking forward to hearing it!
Sarah.
Quote from: anjaq on August 25, 2015, 08:22:29 AM
It goes together. I am way more confident now that my voice changed - I dont feel like it is just about to betray me anymore. So I allow myself more and hold back less when it comes to a lot of things
I totally understand. For me it was the same - Shirts and pants all the time, not too much girly stuff, but this year things change - part of it is because of the voice thing and part is because of weight loss, but I actually probably wore feminine clothes like skirts and dresses more often this year than in the rest of my life and same thing goes for other stuff - using makeup, my behaviour changed - its very interesting to see what a boost in confidence can do for oneself :D - and suddenly one actually wants to do some of the girly things that one kept pushing away as being too girly, too feminine for oneself. And its kind of fun.
With me it's highly variable. Some days I'm really confident and wear girly stuff, and other days it's back to jeans and loose tops. I lost seven pounds after Yeson, but that has slowly been coming back despite my best efforts. I was hoping to get into all my old skirts and skirt suits but no chance yet. However I did manage to get into a lovely rockabilly circle dress which made me feel better. Today, I don't feel Dr Kim's intervention has changed anything in my voice and so I'm dowdy again. I sort of think that if I look boring, then no-one will misgender me because I'll look like all the other boring females here where I live. It's almost like I'm punishing myself for being transsexual. I do love so much being girly though.
Quote from: Teslagirl on August 25, 2015, 04:11:57 PM
I sort of think that if I look boring, then no-one will misgender me because I'll look like all the other boring females here where I live. It's almost like I'm punishing myself for being transsexual. I do love so much being girly though.
Oh, that is not something I worry about. I like being girly. I work in New York and I work in the media business so there are people who are dressed to the hilt here. Not to say that every day I go in looking glamourous. Far from it. But it was kind of funny, how you mentioned you look like other women around there. Today as I was getting off the elevator o the lobby and I saw one of my colleagues who worked in HR. I saw she had a dress that was the same color I had on. Then I saw the same pattern... then it clicked, we had the exact same dress, LOL! Well, then she said, "hey, nice dress!" And I bust out laughing and was like, "Thanks! You too!" That was funny, that is the first time that ever happened.
And honestly if I get clocked, meh.
I think you should relax and not worry as most people don't get an increase until months 2-4. Don't judge yourself by my or Dana's or even Jenny's or J-Mi's result or any of the rest. Everyone is different, and Dr Kim did say 2-4 months minimum.
Quote from: iKate on August 25, 2015, 04:41:00 PM
And honestly if I get clocked, meh.
^^^ that is the emotional goal for sure. Haha. I have some days where I feel like, I don't give a
>-bleeped-< if people clock me, and others where I do. Trying to have more of the former and less of the latter.
Quote from: iKate on August 25, 2015, 04:41:00 PM
I think you should relax and not worry as most people don't get an increase until months 2-4. Don't judge yourself by my or Dana's or even Jenny's or J-Mi's result or any of the rest. Everyone is different, and Dr Kim did say 2-4 months minimum.
And yes. Everyone's results are their own. And as iKate pointed out, Dr. Kim doesn't even expect ANY change in pitch until month 2. So any shift is already ahead of the game. And also as you said previously, it just sounds like your old trained voice. But that's the key. It now naturally sounds like your old trained voice without effort. That's already a definite change.
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So, I had my first speech pathology session yesterday and it was great. I do have to say, she was quite skeptical of how conservative Dr. Kim is on the healing front. She was pretty shocked that it was 4 weeks of complete vocal rest. She said what's standard is one week of complete vocal rest, then 2-3 weeks of limited use, only 20-30 words a day. I told her that's what Dr. Kim USED to instruct and he's gotten more conservative. She speculated that this may be because many of his patients are foreign so he can't personally follow up, so if he makes the instructions more conservative it greatly reduces the chance that someone, without him checking in, will mess something up.
Secondly she was pretty surprised that he doesn't want you to start exercises until after you've already been speaking for four weeks. She felt pretty strongly that exercises should commence as soon as you start talking again so that you don't get into bad habits immediately. I explained that he said it's 1 week for external healing and then 8 weeks for internal healing, her response was, that if your voice is okay to talk, it should be okay for light exercises. Again she speculated the reason for this is that Yeson's speech pathologist is not going to be there with the patient when they commence exercises for the first time, so to make sure people don't mess anything up by doing anything incorrect, that that's probably why he is so conservative on that end. All of this aside, she said while she's never met Dr. Kim she's read much about his technique and heard a lot of his results and finds him quite impressive, and she said she hopes that his technique will come stateside at some point.
Anyway, I'm not technically at 8 weeks. I'm at 6 and a half. But she did have me do some very light and easy resonance exercises (she did say don't do them if I'm not comfortable starting until week 8, but I went for it). She said she does agree that major strength and range exercises shouldn't start till week 8. But even the little resonance stuff has already been so helpful. It felt like a part of my voice that had been dormant since surgery was waking back up.
Also, nice story :-)...
Today I got a phone call from the DNC asking me for money (to which I was like... I've already given you money), and they had my old name on record and said "Hi Mr. "Male name" "last name," and as soon as I started speaking she switched to "Miss." Then at the end of the call she curiously inquired if my name was correct. So I guess my voice does pass on the phone after all :-P.
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Quote from: Dana88 on August 28, 2015, 10:31:45 AM
So, I had my first speech pathology session yesterday and it was great. I do have to say, she was quite skeptical of how conservative Dr. Kim is on the healing front. She was pretty shocked that it was 4 weeks of complete vocal rest. She said what's standard is one week of complete vocal rest, then 2-3 weeks of limited use, only 20-30 words a day. I told her that's what Dr. Kim USED to instruct and he's gotten more conservative. She speculated that this may be because many of his patients are foreign so he can't personally follow up, so if he makes the instructions more conservative it greatly reduces the chance that someone, without him checking in, will mess something up.
Secondly she was pretty surprised that he doesn't want you to start exercises until after you've already been speaking for four weeks. She felt pretty strongly that exercises should commence as soon as you start talking again so that you don't get into bad habits immediately. I explained that he said it's 1 week for external healing and then 8 weeks for internal healing, her response was, that if your voice is okay to talk, it should be okay for light exercises. Again she speculated the reason for this is that Yeson's speech pathologist is not going to be there with the patient when they commence exercises for the first time, so to make sure people don't mess anything up by doing anything incorrect, that that's probably why he is so conservative on that end. All of this aside, she said while she's never met Dr. Kim she's read much about his technique and heard a lot of his results and finds him quite impressive, and she said she hopes that his technique will come stateside at some point.
Anyway, I'm not technically at 8 weeks. I'm at 6 and a half. But she did have me do some very light and easy resonance exercises (she did say don't do them if I'm not comfortable starting until week 8, but I went for it). She said she does agree that major strength and range exercises shouldn't start till week 8. But even the little resonance stuff has already been so helpful. It felt like a part of my voice that had been dormant since surgery was waking back up.
Also, nice story :-)...
Today I got a phone call from the DNC asking me for money (to which I was like... I've already given you money), and they had my old name on record and said "Hi Mr. "Male name" "last name," and as soon as I started speaking she switched to "Miss." Then at the end of the call she curiously inquired if my name was correct. So I guess my voice does pass on the phone after all :-P.
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Glad you had a good session! I sort of agree with the pathologist in terms of starting light exercises right away and I think her speculation about why Dr. Kim is ultra conservative is probably correct. It would explain why Dr. Haben and Dr. Kim differ in their recovery plans even when performing the same surgery, albeit using slightly different techniques. Great story about the phone call from the DNC. Thanks again for sharing your progress.
I've decided that I won't be seeing a speech pathologist as I don't really need it. The Yeson exercises seem to be good enough. My range is increasing with the exercises and I can sing in a female range and that range is increasing steadily. I also don't have much issues with resonance or head/chest voice. I have been told by a few cis women who know that I sound more feminine than they do. My pitch is actually higher than theirs.
The theory about the Yeson pathologist not being there seems to be correct. However my thinking has always been, trust Dr Kim, he did the surgery, he knows his procedure, so do exactly what he says. I deviated only a little but I suspect he takes that into account.
As for the story, that's wonderful! That probably won't happen to me as I block all political calls, and those that get through I simply don't answer them. However, I am much more confident doing phone calls for everything else now.
Quote from: iKate on August 28, 2015, 11:08:22 AM
I've decided that I won't be seeing a speech pathologist as I don't really need it. The Yeson exercises seem to be good enough. My range is increasing with the exercises and I can sing in a female range and that range is increasing steadily. I also don't have much issues with resonance or head/chest voice. I have been told by a few cis women who know that I sound more feminine than they do. My pitch is actually higher than theirs.
The theory about the Yeson pathologist not being there seems to be correct. However my thinking has always been, trust Dr Kim, he did the surgery, he knows his procedure, so do exactly what he says. I deviated only a little but I suspect he takes that into account.
As for the story, that's wonderful! That probably won't happen to me as I block all political calls, and those that get through I simply don't answer them. However, I am much more confident doing phone calls for everything else now.
Yeah I definitely have resonance issues, but as I mentioned before, I had resonance issues preop too, so this is just bringing a preop problem into my new voice (reedy far back sound). So I decided I want to nip that in the bud as I'm healing. And yeah, I'd be more uncomfortable if she was having me do major exercises before week 8 in terms of breaking Dr. Kim's instructions, but all she's having me do is lip trills on single pitch a few times a day and humming on a comfortable pitch a few times a day. So it's not exactly strenuous, but I've noticed it's definitely already helping me achieve a more focused sound in just two days.
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Oh and fun fact, she also measured my lowest usable pitch which is 152 hz. 152 hz was my preop fundamental frequency :-P.
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Quote from: Dana88 on August 28, 2015, 12:01:52 PM
Oh and fun fact, she also measured my lowest usable pitch which is 152 hz. 152 hz was my preop fundamental frequency :-P.
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I haven't measured mine but it probably is around that. Anything lower is just air
Quote from: Dana88 on August 28, 2015, 12:01:52 PM
Oh and fun fact, she also measured my lowest usable pitch which is 152 hz. 152 hz was my preop fundamental frequency :-P.
Thats interesting... My lowest post op pitch is about 115-120 Hz , which is to my estimation my original fundamental frequency, too... Lowest really useable pitch is more like 130 Hz, which is what Dr Kim determined to be my fundamental frequency F0.
I think personally doing light exercises like lip trills and humming is not dangerous after week 4, but gliding up in pitch and using the strengthening exercises should come after week 8.
One interesting thing is also, Jessie asked me actually to send in a video of me doing the voice exercises, so the SLT at Yeson could take a look at them and give me instructions on what I am doing wrong - well, the downside of that is, that apparently I am doing a lot of things wrong and I am not sure how to change that. Like if they tell me that in the /m/ and /mi/ and /meaong/ exercises I have "no resonance", I am not sure how to change that :( - But I am taking the advice of using more abdominal breathing and not going so high in pitch anymore. So just saying - the SLT of Yeson is not out of the world, they are willing to help even if one cannot go there for a followup. But of course the consultation is limited when done by email and video recordings... I may ask them if they can do Skype sessions (for some payment of course) to correct what I am doing wrong, but I doubt it works because Jessie and Dr Kim are the only ones there speaking understandeable english, it seems.
How do you determine the lowest pitch you can go?
I can go to about 125Hz as the absolute minimum humming
We determined the lowest and highest pitch by singing a note, I think usually it was an "e", but basically they did not care - just sing any vowel I want and then go from the mid range up in steps , as high as possible, then start again at the mid range and go as low as I can still make that sound. Humming did not count, it had to be vocalization. We do this once with a soft and rather silent voice and once with a loud voice.
This will then give a picture on the computer of the SLT that looks like this:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fc42VH25.png&hash=ede68ccbeca46317c38fc4223750cf8c92ef8e97)
and the numbers on top give the min F0 and max F0 (pitch range)
Quote from: anjaq on August 29, 2015, 03:08:26 AM
We determined the lowest and highest pitch by singing a note, I think usually it was an "e", but basically they did not care - just sing any vowel I want and then go from the mid range up in steps , as high as possible, then start again at the mid range and go as low as I can still make that sound. Humming did not count, it had to be vocalization. We do this once with a soft and rather silent voice and once with a loud voice.
This will then give a picture on the computer of the SLT that looks like this:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fc42VH25.png&hash=ede68ccbeca46317c38fc4223750cf8c92ef8e97)
and the numbers on top give the min F0 and max F0 (pitch range)
Yes, it was this program she used. I'm not familiar with the program but it was this kind of graph.
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So I'm a LITTLE concerned. On Friday I had three back to back meetings. I tried to speak as sparingly as possible, even switched to typing at one point, but by the end of the night my voice was definitely very tired and hoarse. Then yesterday I gave it a rest, barely spoke for most of the day. When I started talking in the evening, at first it felt even worse than it did at the end of Friday night, but it eventually perked up and felt and sounded fine. Then today I've been speaking less, and same thing, it goes back and forth from super hoarse and tired to feeling fine. This is the first time anything like this has happened to me since I started talking again. I'm getting a little worried... Gonna email Yeson.
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Yeah I dunno.
I struggle a bit in the morning but by 8AM I'm good to go.
Might be normal.
I can guess the reply :D - If you overused your voice, rest your voice for some days, drink lots of water and try not to speak ;)
It happened to me too once. I did 2 days of strong voice rest and 2 days of really just saying a few sentences a day and then the hoarseness was getting better. I think it was during week 6 or 7.
Quote from: anjaq on August 30, 2015, 04:08:16 PM
I can guess the reply :D - If you overused your voice, rest your voice for some days, drink lots of water and try not to speak ;)
It happened to me too once. I did 2 days of strong voice rest and 2 days of really just saying a few sentences a day and then the hoarseness was getting better. I think it was during week 6 or 7.
Yeah. I emailed about some hoarseness last week (though not as bad as this) and that was the reply. But again, today, after I actually used my voice for a bit and it got a bit more warmed up, now it feels totally fine and is sitting nice and high. Maybe it's actually not over usage but under usage if that makes any sense?
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I think under usage can make sense too. Although I didn't have VFS I experience something similar when I don't use my voice and I've seen the same thing with other people as well(including two MtFs).
Quote from: Lynne on August 30, 2015, 06:45:15 PM
I think under usage can make sense too. Although I didn't have VFS I experience something similar when I don't use my voice and I've seen the same thing with other people as well(including two MtFs).
Yeah, the speech pathologist I saw was saying it's a fine line to walk because of course you don't want to push TOO hard to the point of damage, but you also don't want to be too ginger with your voice because if you are you don't gain strength back. So she was saying you do have to push it a little to get it back in shape.
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The long awaited month 2.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0iH7r4AOVYX
Forgive the echoes, this is not the room I usually do my recordings in.
The pitch is all over the place, as low as 180Hz and as high as 267Hz.
It's not really all that different from two weeks ago but I mean I have a whole year.
Toward the end I caught myself saying, "hmm" involuntarily. To me the ability to do this and have an unmistakably feminine pitch made the surgery totally worth it. I would do it again given the choice.
And not for nothing, I'm looking for a job right now so being able to "pass" on phone interviews is helpful.
Quote from: iKate on August 30, 2015, 10:21:36 PM
And not for nothing, I'm looking for a job right now so being able to "pass" on phone interviews is helpful.
What happened???
Quote from: Sydney_NYC on August 30, 2015, 10:41:37 PM
What happened???
Long story.
A few things.
First and foremost, I think I'm being forced out based on people who are being hired to work in my team, who I don't get along with AT ALL.
I was going to leave anyway in 1-2 years but I may have to accelerate that plan.
Don't want to give too many details here.
I've also grown very conflicted over my work and what it supports.
The commute is also just plain awful. If I can, I want something this side of the river. NYC is OK but I am beginning to hate Andrew Cuomo's attitude plus I want to be able to go get my kids if the school calls without having to wait for a NJ Transit bus.
Oh, and I think I'm worth more than what I'm being paid right now.
Report on the two month voice sample. The speaking voice was a bit monotone but the reading voice was great.
Quote from: Dena on August 30, 2015, 10:56:23 PM
Report on the two month voice sample. The speaking voice was a bit monotone but the reading voice was great.
Yeah I suppose so. No idea why. That's interesting because it's as I suspected.
Thanks for the feedback :)
Quote from: iKate on August 30, 2015, 11:03:17 PM
Yeah I suppose so. No idea why. That's interesting because it's as I suspected.
Thanks for the feedback :)
I think the solution to the problem is you are attempting to speak on the fly. Try assembling your thoughts and know what you are going to say before you start speaking. When you read, the word are already there for you. You need to do that with your speaking voice by thinking it out before saying it.
Yes - I have those issues as well - if I read, its ok, but if I speak just without having the words already, I get monotonous because my voice just stays in a relaxed mode while I am trying to find the words. In the worst case I have breaks or even "hmm, emmm" sounds in between. Forming the sentences in the head before speaking is a good advice, but I think it is not easy to always follow it and takes some getting used to. But I believe if it works, it gives a better speaking voice.
Well, it happened. I was called "brother" today. Called the gym to find out something.
However I had a bad line because the guy said "can't hear ya brother"
Interestingly enough when I called back he didn't refer to me as that.
Meh. It's a one time occurrence. Not worried at all.
Sounds like the connection was broken and he just assumed, like many white guys, that he is talking to a white male. I would not give anything to that incident
Someone asked about singing Post OP and if that works ok. Amy posted a video once, which was good, Cristal posted also one after her surgery with Remarcle. I also just saw one of Jamie on the official Yeson Facebook wall, in case someone missed it: https://youtu.be/ofe42-0se5k
They (J-mi and midi-d) also have their own Facebook page and a lot of videos she hasn't posted here.
However I think that she trained her voice to be much higher than what the surgery gave her as well so take that for what it's worth.
A proper singing voice IS a trained voice. In playing with my voice, I have found my pitch is far higher post surgical that I would have though possible. Because the voice is still rough, I don't know just how much higher it will go once healed but I sure didn't expect that much range would come as the result of the surgery.
Quote from: Dena on September 01, 2015, 09:47:15 AM
A proper singing voice IS a trained voice. In playing with my voice, I have found my pitch is far higher post surgical that I would have though possible. Because the voice is still rough, I don't know just how much higher it will go once healed but I sure didn't expect that much range would come as the result of the surgery.
I meant that she trained her voice for high pitch when speaking, not just when singing. She said it's because it's what she wanted.
Oh, she said in some video or post that she increased her pitch higher with training post op beyond the change that Dr Kim did for her? I did not know that. But for sure, in singing ones voice is most likely higher than in speaking. If I sing even withoout notes, just chants or mantras or such, my voice tends to be higher, I usually go a lot into head voice, too... which I avoid while speaking. But that was not so much the point - I think one prejudice about voice surgery is that it makes you unable to sing. One surgeon even told me that outright and another implicated it by saying my vocal range would be minimal (he does CTA only). Obviously that is not so, at least with Dr Kim and Remarcle, given that at least 4 or 5 people have shown that they can sing really well after surgery with Dr Kim and Cristal has shown that singing is possible after Remarcles surgery, too, although of course her recording shows still signs of a voice that needs healing a lot - Amys video which was after 5 months being post op also had still some hints of healing that has to go on in it (which happened later and now she is back to singing professionally). It seems that a post glottoplasty voice with some surgeons can be trained to be a good singing voice too.
So I am ALMOST at the 8 week mark. Three and a half days away. I feel like my voice has REALLY turned a corner this week. It doesn't get tired nearly as easily, and even when it does it regains strength much faster, also clarity and strength are coming back rapidly. The pitch has definitely stabilized even a little higher than it was and feels consistent, and then it seems that my upper range is starting to come back allowing for greater inflection in my speech. I'll record and post a new vocaroo on Monday when I officially hit the 2 month mark and I'm also gonna do a new Praat measurement then :-). Oh and also, I sing sing. So once my singing voice is back in order I'll record myself at the piano and post that as well. But obviously that won't be on Monday :-P.
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Tomorrow will be week 10 for me.
The breathiness is fading and I feel as my voice is more or less just a normal female voice now.
Can't say how much pitch extra I've gained with the exercises but it seems about the same, except maybe finer in quality.
My upper range is steadily increasing. I can sing a number of songs but not Mariah Carey high. Not yet, anyway, lol. In fact in the car I sing all the time. :)
The best part is laughing though. Laughs are feminine as they can be.
Quote from: iKate on September 03, 2015, 12:49:24 PM
Tomorrow will be week 10 for me.
The breathiness is fading and I feel as my voice is more or less just a normal female voice now.
Can't say how much pitch extra I've gained with the exercises but it seems about the same, except maybe finer in quality.
My upper range is steadily increasing. I can sing a number of songs but not Mariah Carey high. Not yet, anyway, lol. In fact in the car I sing all the time. :)
The best part is laughing though. Laughs are feminine as they can be.
Awesome :-). This makes me hopeful for my singing voice.
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So... I couldn't resist measuring my fundamental frequency today... I'M UP TO 238 hz! :o :laugh:
I knew my voice was starting to naturally and more consistently sit higher, but I didn't realize it was THAT high. So that makes it an 86 hz bump in pitch so far :).
Quote from: Dana88 on September 03, 2015, 03:46:04 PM
So... I couldn't resist measuring my fundamental frequency today... I'M UP TO 238 hz! :o :laugh:
I knew my voice was starting to naturally and more consistently sit higher, but I didn't realize it was THAT high. So that makes it an 86 hz bump in pitch so far :).
That's great! Off topic, but are you the same Dana that wrote music for MADAME?
Quote from: kwala on September 03, 2015, 04:49:40 PM
That's great! Off topic, but are you the same Dana that wrote music for MADAME?
Yes! Haha how'd you hear of MADAME? :-)
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Quote from: Dana88 on September 03, 2015, 04:50:44 PM
Yes! Haha how'd you hear of MADAME? :-)
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My friends and I are musical theatre junkies and one of them was talking about it not so long ago and I just put it together :)
Quote from: kwala on September 03, 2015, 05:08:54 PM
My friends and I are musical theatre junkies and one of them was talking about it not so long ago and I just put it together :)
Nice! Well I hope you've enjoyed what you've heard :-).
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Did anyone else of the recent patients get past the Botox stage yet? I was told again yesterday that my voice was better in week 8 or 10 than now in terms of clarity and breathiness. My suspicion is that the clonazepam is not even close to the effect of the Botox in terms of calming down my muscles that distort my voice. And I have about 2 weeks of Clonazepam left, then this is gone, too and I am getting a bit scared of that point. I think so one so far did get another Botox shot and only once I heard that Dr Kim was actually agreeing on it being a good idea, or did anyone get that feedback - to get another Botox? I know doctors here who are using Botox to treat vocal tremors (spasmodic dysphonia), so I could probably get a shot if I go to them and wonder if this makes still any sense after 6 months....
Quote from: anjaq on September 04, 2015, 06:20:42 AM
Did anyone else of the recent patients get past the Botox stage yet? I was told again yesterday that my voice was better in week 8 or 10 than now in terms of clarity and breathiness. My suspicion is that the clonazepam is not even close to the effect of the Botox in terms of calming down my muscles that distort my voice. And I have about 2 weeks of Clonazepam left, then this is gone, too and I am getting a bit scared of that point. I think so one so far did get another Botox shot and only once I heard that Dr Kim was actually agreeing on it being a good idea, or did anyone get that feedback - to get another Botox? I know doctors here who are using Botox to treat vocal tremors (spasmodic dysphonia), so I could probably get a shot if I go to them and wonder if this makes still any sense after 6 months....
Unless you are going to continue with Botox every few months, at some point you will need to control the voice without Botox. Your voice should be healed enough by the time you run out of Clonazepam that it would be time for you to try to make the voice work without drugs. You might also consider an appointment with a doctor who could provide Botox for a second opinion on the current state of your voice issues. Between Dr Kim, your speech therapist and a local voice doctor you should be able to gather enough information to know what is possible and what you need.
Well honestly I dont think the Clonazepam is helping me enough. Maybe I missed the opportunity when the Botox was going away after only 3 months already to get used to the voice change and get along without the Botox well enough. I suppose the Botox was supposed to break old patterns of muscle use, and it did not act long enough maybe... So far, Dr kim does not want me to get Botox, just the Clonazepam.... I will see in 2 weeks what happens when it runs out. I have a tiny hope tat maybe it is also relaxing some muscles I need for making a good voice and in that case getting off would actually improve some things. I doubt my voice therapist would think it is a good idea to Botox either, she is in favour of doing more training and relaxation exercises to get this right. Of course, in training hours things always actually do get better, just it easily slips away soon after...
I considered Yoga or something like that - it helped me relaxing my voice pre op some of the times I did it.
Quote from: anjaq on September 04, 2015, 02:40:12 PM
Of course, in training hours things always actually do get better, just it easily slips away soon after...
You hit the nail on the head for me. My voice falls naturally below the sweet spot but it requires only a small amount of effort to push it up to the sweet spot. Before surgery I had the habit of paying attention to my voice as bad as it was. With the almost 2 week of voice rest and my problem of losing the sweet spot after only a few minutes of conversation, I fear getting lazy and needing to relearn the discipline I developed over many years of using the voice.
I struggle to really find the "sweet spot" - but I know that much of the time I am probably below it in speaking because I get a strain in my throat after a while that feels like I am talking too low - I can reproduce it much faster when I try deliberately to talk really low...
The stupid thing is, to talk deliberately higher than I would normally seems to cause my throat to hurt in the way I know from pre VFS when I had to push up pitch all the time, so some muscles will strain in pushing up pitch.
My guess is, that I should talk a bit higher in pitch than I often do, but somehow make my brain forget what it still seems to think it has to do to get there - to use this muscle power to push up pitch. Because its probably not needed and rather distorts the voice now. But it seems to me that my brain still is in the old patterns: If I want to relax my voice, pitch goes down in a range that was relaxing before VFS but now is actually straining. If I want to speak at a bit higher pitch, which should probably be where my voice is best now, my brain still thinks it needs to use muscle force and tension to push pitch in that area, even though now after VFS that is not needed.
I understood Dr Kim that way that the Botox and then the Clonazepam kind of are supposed to "reset" that behaviour of the brain. Obviously its not that easy for me, given I used my voice that way for 17 years. This is why I was thinking Botox again to double that "Reset Effect" maybe...
For me it's not so much pitching the cords but keeping the larynx muscles tight. Lack us use cause me to get out of practice and I relax the muscles dropping the pitch to about 170Hz. Moving the larynx where it belongs move me between 200 and 210Hz. The chest voice is about 140Hz so it doesn't take a math major to know where I want my voice ;D
Your chest voice is 140 Hz before VFS or now???
I am also taking about the throat muscles - they are changing the shape and position of the larynx and I still seem to do this in a forceful way too often (because I want a higher pitch maybe, or maybe just if I am speaking at a higher pitch out of reflex). And all therapists so far told me that I should relax them. Not doing the "forced feminization" of the voice that I would do before the surgery , but just let go of those habits, because they cause breathiness and dysphonia and vocal tremors now...
My chest voice was 80 Hz before surgery and 140 Hz after surgery the last time I checked. Dr Haben told me to expect a 60 to 80 Hz change in my voice and I am seeing the 60 Hz in the chest voice. I am doing a bit better with my feminine voice with between a 70 and 80 Hz improvement. I was around 130 Hz before surgery and now am between 200 and 210 Hz at about 8 weeks after surgery. Not bad considering I couldn't have more than a 40% tie and that may have been pushing it.
The only changes I used with my voice were to move the larynx up and for a few months I used the falsetto. I didn't have the vocal range in my voice to pitch the voce higher using cord tension alone. When I attempted it I chopped the little inflection I was able to add to the voice and sounded monotone. I had no idea how confined my voice was until I came to this web site and learned how different a normal voice was from mine. My post surgical voice is vastly different from the old voice because if I wish, I can now pitch it with cord tension alone without becoming monotone.
I know there is some swelling still going on because my voce has been fading pretty quickly when I use it much so I am waiting until the 3 month mark before really mapping the new voice out. If I still have fade at that point, I may need to wait until the 6 month mark for valid numbers. Dr Haben indicated it might take up to 6 months for the final voice and I already know I am healing slower than some of the others who have seen Dr Haben.
Quote from: Dena on September 05, 2015, 09:12:43 AM
My chest voice was 80 Hz before surgery and 140 Hz after surgery the last time I checked. Dr Haben told me to expect a 60 to 80 Hz change in my voice and I am seeing the 60 Hz in the chest voice. I am doing a bit better with my feminine voice with between a 70 and 80 Hz improvement. I was around 130 Hz before surgery and now am between 200 and 210 Hz at about 8 weeks after surgery.
So you do have two different voices now, just as before? I was kind of told by Dr Kim to not use a "feminized voice" but just to use my relaxed voice, which would be my chest voice. So you add a voice training and deliberate pitch increase in the form of a trained feminine voice to the effect of the surgery to get to the 200 Hz range?
What are you doing when you talk about using your feminine voice now?
I think I still have all 4 voices but I haven't played with the upper 2 because I am unstable enough in the lower two. I use a mouth/head voice by tightening up the muscles above the larynx. Putting you hand gently on the larynx you will feel the larynx move up when done correctly. Before surgery that would give me around a 50Hz improvement over my 80Hz chest voice and it's the voice you commented that it sounds male. Post surgically that action seems to be giving me a bigger boost. If I don't don't tighten my muscles correctly, my voices will drop to the 170Hz range. Adding in the vocal cords I can push the pitch to near 400Hz without attempting a falsetto like voice.
I ask Dr Haben in person exactly which voice I was to use and that was his answer. The chest voice would never cut it for me as it was little better than what I used for the last 35 years. The limit of the surgery, at least the way Dr Haben does it is a 80Hz boost in you voice. Some people might do a bit better and some worst depending on a number of factors. I didn't have CTA because as I saw it my range would be limited and the small bump in additional pitch wasn't worth the loss of range. Had Dr Haben recommended CTA and provided better outcome, I would have written a check on the spot.
To show you why I am so stunned by the surgery, this is what I send to Dr Haben.
Lowest usable note 80Hz, male speaking voice was above that.
Mouth voice 130-196Hz
Falsetto voice 155-237Hz
Whistler voice 250-490Hz
Now for equal time, had Dr Kim done the same 40% tie, I would have expected much the same results.
I don't really measure Hz anymore but people (my friends) say my voice is higher compared to 2 weeks ago. One of them was confused when talking to me tonight and thought he had the wrong number. :p
I'm doing the exercises religiously now and they do have an effect.
Breathiness is less but I have a little to play with and I can add it on demand pretty much and it doesn't sound false or fake at all.
Really really happy with my result. Even in my worst guy drag like when I go to Lowe's to buy lumber and drywall I'm gendered female now.
Quote from: iKate on September 06, 2015, 09:08:16 PM
I don't really measure Hz anymore but people (my friends) say my voice is higher compared to 2 weeks ago. One of them was confused when talking to me tonight and thought he had the wrong number. :p
I'm doing the exercises religiously now and they do have an effect.
Breathiness is less but I have a little to play with and I can add it on demand pretty much and it doesn't sound false or fake at all.
Really really happy with my result. Even in my worst guy drag like when I go to Lowe's to buy lumber and drywall I'm gendered female now.
Yay! I start exercises tomorrow :-).
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My curiosity got the better of me and I did a crude measurement of my min and max usable pitch.
Minimum is 125.1Hz. That's the lowest I can go.
Maximum is 391.99Hz (let's just say 392Hz, lol).
I can go higher to over 400Hz but only very softly and it takes effort. Doing the exercises should help with this.
Soooo somehow in my travels in the last two months I lost JUST the second sheet with the exercises on it. I have page one. If anyone would be so kind as to PM me the exercises that are on page two I would so appreciate it!
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Anjaq sent them to me! Crisis averted! Thanks :-).
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I also have an audio recording of my session with their SLP and Jessie. Let me know if you need it.
(I'm not putting it for general consumption, just post op Yeson patients who may not have recorded it and need it).
I still do not get the ng-ah exercise completely - especially when and how the scales come into it. ist it doing ng-ah at each pitch or just doing ng-ah and then vary pitch while just keep doing the "ah"?
My dear friends.
I really need to talk. I have no trans friends and you ladies are the closest thing I have to family.
I feel really desolate at the moment. There is no change at all in my voice, except for breathiness and lack of range. I feel I have wasted $10,000. I went to a hernia doctor a week and a half ago and he got me to cough a lot, and like an idiot, I did as I was told. My ffs with Dr O gave me a really ugly nose with a hump, like an ancient Mayan statue ($23,000) and my final surgery is scheduled in Thailand. If that is also a disaster, I don't know if I'll be able to carry on. I came so far, and now all my surgeries have let me down and my soul is empty of hope.
My great love to you all,
Sarah.
Quote from: Teslagirl on September 07, 2015, 06:01:50 PM
My dear friends.
I really need to talk. I have no trans friends and you ladies are the closest thing I have to family.
I feel really desolate at the moment. There is no change at all in my voice, except for breathiness and lack of range. I feel I have wasted $7000. My ffs with Dr O gave me a really ugly nose with a hump, like an ancient Mayan statue ($23,000) and my final surgery is scheduled in Thailand. If that is also a disaster, I don't know if I'll be able to carry on. I came so far, and now all my surgeries have let me down and my soul is empty of hope.
Love to all,
Sarah.
Sarah,
If you are thinking of harming yourself please call a hotline.
Please don't worry. I don't think I will Kate; I'm just empty and desolate; it feels like yet more punishment for being trans and daring to hope things could get better. I've been punished for this all my life and it's the way things are. It will never change.. Mom and Dad and my brother died a few years ago, and there is nothing now for me to look forward to.
Not suicidal, I'm even rubbish at that. Just totally distraught and lonely. If only Dr Kim's surgery had worked for me. He's helped so many others. I don't come back here much any more, as the successes are so wonderful, and so unobtainable for me.
Sarah.
How long ago was the surgery? IIRC it was something like 6-8 weeks? Some coughing should be ok, although you probably should have avoided that , telling the doc that you are not allowed to do it at the moment. But I doubt it does big harm after 4 weeks. The healing process is so different for everyone that it is hard to say what is going on so far. If the web holds (you probably would know if it didn't, but you can let an ENT check with an endoscope), there will be physical changes - like you should not be able to really do a mans voice anymore and such. I hope you did some recordings pre op - of your regular voice, of your relaxed voice, of your probable pre-transition voice... to compare now and see and feel which of these now work, feel relaxed, are not accessible anymore. This will tell you that changes happened.
You know that for me the VFS was also not as incredibly a change as for some, but my regular speaking voice is not a bit higher than before and it really seems to be my natural voice now, not my trained voice. Also big changes in timbre have happened, making my voice feminine even at the lower pitches and when laughing. Those are great changes to look at. Some changes were there for me right from the start, but I was not aware of them, some changes occured later, between week 6 and 12. Not pitch changes so much though, but even that did change a little from about 160/170 to 180 Hz, probably that change was mostly because I had a better voice melody after recovering a bit more and using a wider pitch range.
Anyways - I doubt that your VFS was a failure - but maybe it does not fulfil your expectations and this can be very frustrating. Can't you go to Dr O and ask him to correct whatever went wrong with your rhinoplasty? I know, noses are difficult and lots of people have corrections, so this seems to me more the regular case than the exception, sadly.
I hope that you find a solution for all of it.
When and where will you be for the final surgery?
Quote from: anjaq on September 08, 2015, 05:13:07 AM
How long ago was the surgery? IIRC it was something like 6-8 weeks? Some coughing should be ok, although you probably should have avoided that , telling the doc that you are not allowed to do it at the moment. But I doubt it does big harm after 4 weeks. The healing process is so different for everyone that it is hard to say what is going on so far. If the web holds (you probably would know if it didn't, but you can let an ENT check with an endoscope), there will be physical changes - like you should not be able to really do a mans voice anymore and such. I hope you did some recordings pre op - of your regular voice, of your relaxed voice, of your probable pre-transition voice... to compare now and see and feel which of these now work, feel relaxed, are not accessible anymore. This will tell you that changes happened.
You know that for me the VFS was also not as incredibly a change as for some, but my regular speaking voice is not a bit higher than before and it really seems to be my natural voice now, not my trained voice. Also big changes in timbre have happened, making my voice feminine even at the lower pitches and when laughing. Those are great changes to look at. Some changes were there for me right from the start, but I was not aware of them, some changes occured later, between week 6 and 12. Not pitch changes so much though, but even that did change a little from about 160/170 to 180 Hz, probably that change was mostly because I had a better voice melody after recovering a bit more and using a wider pitch range.
Anyways - I doubt that your VFS was a failure - but maybe it does not fulfil your expectations and this can be very frustrating. Can't you go to Dr O and ask him to correct whatever went wrong with your rhinoplasty? I know, noses are difficult and lots of people have corrections, so this seems to me more the regular case than the exception, sadly.
I hope that you find a solution for all of it.
When and where will you be for the final surgery?
I second all of what anjaq said. Especially because you were using a trained voice 24/7 it may be difficult to notice a difference because what you were using all the time isn't that far off from your surgical result. But as anjaq said, the difference should be that now that's your natural voice and it would be impossible to relax back down into a male voice.
Both iKate and I were not speaking 24/7 in a trained voice preop. I had done some training and achieved a voice that was around 200 hz, but I always felt weird using it publicly so I never did. Short of saying some stuff into my phone every so often I never actually used it. But if I had been speaking in a consistent 200 hz voice, I would not have seen much of a change either because now my postop voice, depending on time of day and how tired I am, ranges from a fundamental frequency of 200-236 hz. So especially when my voice is lower and tired and closer to 200, it would have sat around where my trained voice was and I likely would not really have perceived a difference. BUT I spoke in a relaxed male voice more often than not. So the perceived difference is larger when the fundamental frequency I was used to hearing preop was 152 hz.
Also, I'd like to point out that I didn't start consistently and comfortably sitting more in the 220-236 range until almost 8 weeks postop (it really turned a corner at 7 weeks to be exact). Before then I would have bursts of comfortably speaking that high, and then more often it would sit between 190 and 200.
And also remember, Dr. Kim says some people see a large pitch shift quick, and for some people it's more gradual and can take place over 8-10 months. So while of course it's tough to wait that long, I don't think you can declare your surgery a failure at 5 or 6 weeks postop.
Try to take a breath and try to be patient.
Have you tried measuring your fundamental frequency? That actually helped me in the early weeks when I first started talking again and I'd feel like my voice was low and male sounding. I'd measure the fundamental frequency and see I'm still in the female range. Have you tried that at all and are you in a female range?
Dr. Kim says the female range is 200-250 BUT my speech pathologist says 160-185 is androgynous pitch wise and will likely be gendered male or female depending other factors (resonance, tone, cadence etc) and that 185-250 is decidedly female. I'm inclined to agree with her on that one just from observing other cis women's voices. So even if you're in the androgynous range, for 5 or 6 weeks postop, that ain't too bad.
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Yeah, I mean, 2 months minimum and a whole year for the surgery to do all it can do.
As Dana mentioned I never really used trained voice because I would absolutely fail at using it. Yes it was 195-210Hz but I got "sir" more times than not. I know some women like Julie Van Vu (Princess Joules), Andrea James and Brynn Tannehill trained their voice to sound feminine but I just couldn't do it. You can hear the lower tones in my original voice recording. In many respects my voice sounds the same but the timbre is totally different.
So give it time. You're older so healing may be slower, but it will happen for you. I haven't seen many (any?) that had an unpassable result.
Quote from: iKate on September 08, 2015, 02:03:39 PM
So give it time. You're older so healing may be slower, but it will happen for you. I haven't seen many (any?) that had an unpassable result.
^^^ this.
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I had my surgery with Dr Haben and I am about 8 weeks out with a very erratic voice. I haven't attempted to put a recording up yet because sometime the voice is fine for a few minutes but using it beyond that drives the pitch down. I spend the last three days living like a monk and then went to my mothers house yesterday for cards and dinner opening my mouth for the first time and my voice was bad. I know that problem is swelling in the cords bumping the mass up and reducing the pitch. It is something I can even feel when I try to speak. Dr Haben takes a check on the voice at three months to measure improvement and most people are healed by then. On of his voice posted a three month sample up here and Dr Haben wants another recording at 6 months. Dr Haben in his last appointment indicated to me that my healing period might be as long as 6 months and there may be changes beyond that.
As for coughing, Dr Haben also wants you to avoid it at all cost but he take the view it's going to happen sometimes. After about 3 or 4 weeks, coughing might slow healing but really shouldn't damage anything.
It is hard for me to wait for my voice to heal because I want to start using it in the correct range and locking the new voice in but healing takes time and if you are like me and the swelling is slow to leave, you have few other options other than to wait it out and don't worry about something should get better with time.
Quote from: Dana88 on September 08, 2015, 01:53:45 PM
Both iKate and I were not speaking 24/7 in a trained voice preop. I had done some training and achieved a voice that was around 200 hz, but I always felt weird using it publicly so I never did.
I think what happens here easily is: One is used to a certain pitch pre-OP - either the "male pitch" or a trained voice or just a habit of 17 or 30+ years of speaking in a higher pitched voice. Post OP, one subconsciously tries to sound the same - the brain wants continuity and thus "hear the same voice". Now if your pre OP voice was 130 Hz, its just impossible to do that post OP for most, so the brain quickly has to understand that this will not work and accept that something big has changed. Same if you have a VFS that gave you a ppitch htat is 100Hz+ higher than pre OP. However if you had a pre OP everyday pitch of 170 Hz, this is well within the range of any post-OP voice. So it is within th epossibilities of the brain to "do the same voice" as pre OP. And I believe in some, it will just do that and then the old voice has to be un-learned and one has to find a new voice. Using th eold voice would then actually either be your new relaxed voice, so the tensioning that went with increasing pitch pre OP has to be unlearned (which causes tightness in the throat). ... or the new optimal pitch is actually higher, leading to one using the voice at its lower end by trying to match the old voice, which is a strain on the voice and results in hoarseness. In that case the old pitch has to be unlearned and a new one has to be found.
At least tat is my theory about this and in part I think it is what happens to me - I still try to match my old 160-170 Hz voice a lot but by doing so I force my voice down into an area that is now not sounding well and actually can be a strain and hurt. I find it hard to concentrate on using a higher pitch now (higher than my "high pitch" pre OP), but I have a tendency to think that this actually might sound better than using a pitch that I feel comfortable in (probably because it sounds like I am used to).
Maybe it is a bad example but here are two recordings , same date, just one recording forst, then did the voice exercises and some relaxation and deliberately thought of increasing pitch just a little - basically it is not really an effort, just an awareness, and did another recording:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1o1c36x8kKl #1 - 174 Hz
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1DDvQFm3F4H #2 - 204 Hz
Hope that makes sense?
QuoteAnd also remember, Dr. Kim says some people see a large pitch shift quick, and for some people it's more gradual and can take place over 8-10 months.
This he keeps saying and some seem to have had that experience. I am still not sure what causes this. I am in doubt that actual physical changes to more than a certain degree participate in that change - some scar contraction maybe, some loss of swelling still after a long time. I would guess that if the effect that I talked about above exists, it may take part in it. So in that case it would not be the "hardware" that changes a lot after those months, but its the "software" that has to be changed to match the new hardware - with exercises, singing, trying different voices and breathing,.... or just waiting for the brain to "get it", that some change happened for real
Quote from: anjaq on September 08, 2015, 05:25:21 PM
I think what happens here easily is: One is used to a certain pitch pre-OP - either the "male pitch" or a trained voice or just a habit of 17 or 30+ years of speaking in a higher pitched voice. Post OP, one subconsciously tries to sound the same - the brain wants continuity and thus "hear the same voice". Now if your pre OP voice was 130 Hz, its just impossible to do that post OP for most, so the brain quickly has to understand that this will not work and accept that something big has changed. Same if you have a VFS that gave you a ppitch htat is 100Hz+ higher than pre OP. However if you had a pre OP everyday pitch of 170 Hz, this is well within the range of any post-OP voice. So it is within th epossibilities of the brain to "do the same voice" as pre OP. And I believe in some, it will just do that and then the old voice has to be un-learned and one has to find a new voice. Using th eold voice would then actually either be your new relaxed voice, so the tensioning that went with increasing pitch pre OP has to be unlearned (which causes tightness in the throat). ... or the new optimal pitch is actually higher, leading to one using the voice at its lower end by trying to match the old voice, which is a strain on the voice and results in hoarseness. In that case the old pitch has to be unlearned and a new one has to be found.
At least tat is my theory about this and in part I think it is what happens to me - I still try to match my old 160-170 Hz voice a lot but by doing so I force my voice down into an area that is now not sounding well and actually can be a strain and hurt. I find it hard to concentrate on using a higher pitch now (higher than my "high pitch" pre OP), but I have a tendency to think that this actually might sound better than using a pitch that I feel comfortable in (probably because it sounds like I am used to).
Maybe it is a bad example but here are two recordings , same date, just one recording forst, then did the voice exercises and some relaxation and deliberately thought of increasing pitch just a little - basically it is not really an effort, just an awareness, and did another recording:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1o1c36x8kKl #1 - 174 Hz
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1DDvQFm3F4H #2 - 204 Hz
Hope that makes sense?
This he keeps saying and some seem to have had that experience. I am still not sure what causes this. I am in doubt that actual physical changes to more than a certain degree participate in that change - some scar contraction maybe, some loss of swelling still after a long time. I would guess that if the effect that I talked about above exists, it may take part in it. So in that case it would not be the "hardware" that changes a lot after those months, but its the "software" that has to be changed to match the new hardware - with exercises, singing, trying different voices and breathing,.... or just waiting for the brain to "get it", that some change happened for real
Yes. All of this makes TOTAL sense. For me my preop was 152. Even though I am used to it, I am literally incapable of speaking there now so I have no choice but to use a higher pitch. Had I been using a 200 hz trained voice, I would be perfectly capable of speaking there now regardless of whether or not that's where my voice actually wants to sit.
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Quote from: anjaq on September 08, 2015, 05:25:21 PM
I think what happens here easily is: One is used to a certain pitch pre-OP - either the "male pitch" or a trained voice or just a habit of 17 or 30+ years of speaking in a higher pitched voice. Post OP, one subconsciously tries to sound the same - the brain wants continuity and thus "hear the same voice". Now if your pre OP voice was 130 Hz, its just impossible to do that post OP for most, so the brain quickly has to understand that this will not work and accept that something big has changed. Same if you have a VFS that gave you a ppitch htat is 100Hz+ higher than pre OP. However if you had a pre OP everyday pitch of 170 Hz, this is well within the range of any post-OP voice. So it is within th epossibilities of the brain to "do the same voice" as pre OP. And I believe in some, it will just do that and then the old voice has to be un-learned and one has to find a new voice. Using th eold voice would then actually either be your new relaxed voice, so the tensioning that went with increasing pitch pre OP has to be unlearned (which causes tightness in the throat). ... or the new optimal pitch is actually higher, leading to one using the voice at its lower end by trying to match the old voice, which is a strain on the voice and results in hoarseness. In that case the old pitch has to be unlearned and a new one has to be found.
This does make sense.
I trained my voice a little but really did not do too much training because I was getting the surgery anyway.
When I started talking post-op, I literally felt my voice trying to use the lower pitches, giving up then going higher until it felt comfortable. That was probably the reset and recalibration my brain was doing. I believe the feedback mechanism is more than just auditory, there may be some feeling of the tension in the muscles in addition. A lot of people who train their voices have their voices up high anyway and they get used to the muscle tension, and don't feel it so I think the brain doesn't have that feedback anymore which is why they don't see a big increase in pitch.
Quote from: iKate on September 09, 2015, 10:38:32 AM
This does make sense.
I trained my voice a little but really did not do too much training because I was getting the surgery anyway.
When I started talking post-op, I literally felt my voice trying to use the lower pitches, giving up then going higher until it felt comfortable. That was probably the reset and recalibration my brain was doing. I believe the feedback mechanism is more than just auditory, there may be some feeling of the tension in the muscles in addition. A lot of people who train their voices have their voices up high anyway and they get used to the muscle tension, and don't feel it so I think the brain doesn't have that feedback anymore which is why they don't see a big increase in pitch.
Yeah, my voice did that too. First few words were raspy and low and it was that my brain was trying to speak where it used to, and then in a split second it sorta ascended up to find the comfortable new normal.
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Ok - this is interesting. I think it can explain why the change is not happening fast or maybe not at all for some people.
The part about muscle tension may be true as well, especially I believe that the muscles are so subconsciously tensed , that they will do that post op as well, which distorts the voice then, instead of increasing pitch. At least this seems what I experience and I think this is why Dr Kim uses the Botox - he literally said that he uses the Botox and pills to re-train the brain to not produce these distortions (vocal tremors) anymore...
Haha so here is a story.
I had a conf call with a vendor yesterday. They're working on a project with us and I'm the lead on the technical side, hammering out the specs. However I had called one of the sales people before I had my surgery, actually it was while I was in the KAL lounge at JFK waiting for my flight. (The lounge food was bleh by the way, Delta Sky Club is way better). Of course I had my pre-op voice and I told him I was transitioning because he knew me by my old name. So we had a call, he said oh its cool and stuff, congrats on transition (don't they all say that?) and we were very much in the preliminary stages of the project, then I had to leave to go board my flight.
Fast forward to today where we have a call to discuss and get some final specs on the project. I joined the call. A few minutes in, I am talking and then he asked, "Wait, who is this?" I said, "It's (kate)." He then said, "wow, really! I didn't even recognize you. I was beginning to think I was on the wrong conference call. How was your trip? You were going to where, Korea?" I didn't give him all the details, I just said I went on personal business but I had fun with it. :)
Quote from: iKate on September 10, 2015, 09:53:20 AM
Haha so here is a story.
I had a conf call with a vendor yesterday. They're working on a project with us and I'm the lead on the technical side, hammering out the specs. However I had called one of the sales people before I had my surgery, actually it was while I was in the KAL lounge at JFK waiting for my flight. (The lounge food was bleh by the way, Delta Sky Club is way better). Of course I had my pre-op voice and I told him I was transitioning because he knew me by my old name. So we had a call, he said oh its cool and stuff, congrats on transition (don't they all say that?) and we were very much in the preliminary stages of the project, then I had to leave to go board my flight.
Fast forward to today where we have a call to discuss and get some final specs on the project. I joined the call. A few minutes in, I am talking and then he asked, "Wait, who is this?" I said, "It's (kate)." He then said, "wow, really! I didn't even recognize you. I was beginning to think I was on the wrong conference call. How was your trip? You were going to where, Korea?" I didn't give him all the details, I just said I went on personal business but I had fun with it. :)
^^^ I love this.
SO! I recorded once again the opening to my favorite book, the Pillars of the Earth, the same thing that I recorded the first day I could speak again so that you can get a direct comparison :-).
Day one of speaking:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1mTgXYD1QQM
Today (8 1/2 weeks later):
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0QKq8hr1EzN
I'm still talking with a little rasp and reedyness, but again, this is not a new issue. I spoke like that preop as well and I'm struggling to get my voice more forward. I can get it forward when I speak lower, but it's not actually where my voice wants to sit and then I get tired quickly when I do it because I'm speaking too low. I was telling my speech pathologist, I used to compensate for that reedyness by really amping up my chest resonance, but obviously now I am incapable of doing that (thanks Dr. Kim! ;D ). So, that's gonna take some time to work through and break old habits. But other than that I am QUITE happy so far.
Quote from: Dana88 on September 10, 2015, 01:35:10 PM
^^^ I love this.
SO! I recorded once again the opening to my favorite book, the Pillars of the Earth, the same thing that I recorded the first day I could speak again so that you can get a direct comparison :-).
Day one of speaking:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1mTgXYD1QQM
Today (8 1/2 weeks later):
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0QKq8hr1EzN
I'm still talking with a little rasp and reedyness, but again, this is not a new issue. I spoke like that preop as well and I'm struggling to get my voice more forward. I can get it forward when I speak lower, but it's not actually where my voice wants to sit and then I get tired quickly when I do it because I'm speaking too low. I was telling my speech pathologist, I used to compensate for that reedyness by really amping up my chest resonance, but obviously now I am incapable of doing that (thanks Dr. Kim! ;D ). So, that's gonna take some time to work through and break old habits. But other than that I am QUITE happy so far.
Yeah, you do sound good! There is much improvement between the first and second, and it should only get better.
If you can maintain the voice in the second sample, I think you have it. The pitch, inflection and softness is a good blend and I would expect a voice like that to come from a CIS woman. If you wanted to make audio book, that would be the perfect voice because it is clear and understandable.
Quote from: Dena on September 10, 2015, 09:04:11 PM
If you can maintain the voice in the second sample, I think you have it. The pitch, inflection and softness is a good blend and I would expect a voice like that to come from a CIS woman. If you wanted to make audio book, that would be the perfect voice because it is clear and understandable.
Awww. Well thank you :-). Yeah, that second recording is literally just my voice now and where it sits. Dr. Kim did a good job! I mean... These days when I'm tired and speaking low, I sit at around 210-215 hz, and when I'm in good voice it can be around 225-239 hz. My voice is UNMISTAKABLY in a female range now, which is amazing :-).
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Just had a story I need to share! I called up my pharmacy because my endo called in a new prescription for me yesterday and I wanted to make sure it was ready before I went to get it. My insurance is still under my male name, so I called up and said a prescription was called in for "male name" and I just wanted to make sure it's ready. And they said "what is his date of birth?" And I gave it to them, and then they said "yup, it's all ready for him whenever he wants to come in." So just on the phone they read my voice alone as female and assumed I could not possibly be "male name." YAAAAAYYYYY!!!!
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Way cool - Hehe - I should try some situations like that. But usually they rather ask me for my first name in phone calls
Something else. I found it very strange that my voice is quite different before and after the exercises. One das I did a recording, just spaking as I normally would and then I did the voice exercises, did some of the LaxVox voice relaxation in between and concentrated a bit on my voice, also to use a bit more feminine pitch, which was possible without any strain - and it sounded much better, IMO - I guess the goal would be to have voice #2 as voice #1... I hope one day it just sticks ;)
voice#1: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1o1c36x8kKl
voice#2: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1DDvQFm3F4H
Quote from: anjaq on September 11, 2015, 03:09:54 PM
Way cool - Hehe - I should try some situations like that. But usually they rather ask me for my first name in phone calls
Something else. I found it very strange that my voice is quite different before and after the exercises. One das I did a recording, just spaking as I normally would and then I did the voice exercises, did some of the LaxVox voice relaxation in between and concentrated a bit on my voice, also to use a bit more feminine pitch, which was possible without any strain - and it sounded much better, IMO - I guess the goal would be to have voice #2 as voice #1... I hope one day it just sticks ;)
voice#1: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1o1c36x8kKl
voice#2: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1DDvQFm3F4H
The second voice sounds great!
The first voice sounds almost like you're putting on a low voice... The second one sounds more natural to me... Maybe it's what we were talking about yesterday? You're used to speaking around there and are still capable so that's where your brain wants to go, and then maybe when you do the exercises your brain realizes you're speaking at the low end of your range? For example, right now I *can* speak at a fundamental frequency of 175/180, but it doesn't feel right and my voice tires really quickly doing it since I'm putting too much pressure on it. Where it *wants* to sit when I just speak without thinking is in that 220-230 range. So maybe you have a little of the same situation?
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It's funny about the passing power of a voice.
Today in court I went to change my name, and the judge was apparently confused until I said, "I am transgender" and then it clicked in his head, LOL.
Quote from: Dana88 on September 11, 2015, 04:33:54 PM
The second voice sounds great!
The first voice sounds almost like you're putting on a low voice... The second one sounds more natural to me...
Yes - but for the second one I do have to concentrate... weird. If I don't watch it, I will be more in the first voice. And if I try to get into the habit of using a higher pitch, I fall back into the habit of squeezing my voice and then it gets strained.
QuoteYou're used to speaking around there and are still capable so that's where your brain wants to go, and then maybe when you do the exercises your brain realizes you're speaking at the low end of your range? For example, right now I *can* speak at a fundamental frequency of 175/180, but it doesn't feel right and my voice tires really quickly doing it since I'm putting too much pressure on it. Where it *wants* to sit when I just speak without thinking is in that 220-230 range. So maybe you have a little of the same situation?
Yes. I suspected this from the beginning, at 8 weeks, that I am "underusing" my voice in therms of pitch. We did some voice relaxation stuff at the SLT this week. Me lying down, relaxing , then doing some air flow without sound and then adding a bit of sound ot it. Of course its more singing than speaking but in these esercises, I usually come out at either G or A - at the end of them, the G seems to be really low for me and I trend towards the A, although it is in the voice break zone.
But what is even weirder, I can also go almost into my pre OP untrained voice. I can speak in a mode that gives the same average F0 that Dr Kim measured for me pre-OP, with whole words only averaging 115 Hz and the overall Rainbow passage averaging 135 Hz. I did not expect to be able to actually do my pre OP voice again.... apparently for almost everyone else having had VFS, this is impossible... not that it is comfortable to do - I expect this voice only to come out of me when I really dont watch it and have spent a long night at a club with some drinks maybe - for daily, conscious use, the voice comfortably is at the 170-200 Hz range as in the two examples...
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[/quote]
I can get back to my preoperative voice (almost) but I can't hit the pitch that my chest voice could produce before. My chest voice moved up to where my old trained voice was and my trained voice moved into the lower female range. It sounds like your pre surgical measurements of your old voice may have been off.
Quote from: anjaq on September 12, 2015, 07:22:15 AM
Yes - but for the second one I do have to concentrate... weird. If I don't watch it, I will be more in the first voice. And if I try to get into the habit of using a higher pitch, I fall back into the habit of squeezing my voice and then it gets strained.
Yes. I suspected this from the beginning, at 8 weeks, that I am "underusing" my voice in therms of pitch. We did some voice relaxation stuff at the SLT this week. Me lying down, relaxing , then doing some air flow without sound and then adding a bit of sound ot it. Of course its more singing than speaking but in these esercises, I usually come out at either G or A - at the end of them, the G seems to be really low for me and I trend towards the A, although it is in the voice break zone.
But what is even weirder, I can also go almost into my pre OP untrained voice. I can speak in a mode that gives the same average F0 that Dr Kim measured for me pre-OP, with whole words only averaging 115 Hz and the overall Rainbow passage averaging 135 Hz. I did not expect to be able to actually do my pre OP voice again.... apparently for almost everyone else having had VFS, this is impossible... not that it is comfortable to do - I expect this voice only to come out of me when I really dont watch it and have spent a long night at a club with some drinks maybe - for daily, conscious use, the voice comfortably is at the 170-200 Hz range as in the two examples...
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I can speak somewhat close to my old voice if I try hard, but the timbre sounds weak and like a girl trying to put on a low man voice. The absolute lowest pitch where I bottom out is the D below middle C which is my old fundamental frequency. I'm sure if I tried I could speak on an E or F but it's not where my voice wants to sit.
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Quote from: Dana88 on September 12, 2015, 05:36:47 PM
I can speak somewhat close to my old voice if I try hard, but the timbre sounds weak and like a girl trying to put on a low man voice. The absolute lowest pitch where I bottom out is the D below middle C which is my old fundamental frequency. I'm sure if I tried I could speak on an E or F but it's not where my voice wants to sit.
So the D below Middle C is the D3, which is below the C4, right? Thats about 150 Hz I think. This is great. I heard this from many others who had VFS. For me the lowest is the A below the low C. So thats A2 (115 Hz). I can speak at C3 or D3 if I want to. I believe my voice wants to either sit there when I am in some sort of "male resonance mode" maybe - or it wants to sit at a G3 or A3 in a more feminine resonance mode. Sometimes it seems undecided and go all across these pitches. My old fundamental frequency was C3 (in sort of a "male mode" that I was asked to do at Yeson - 134Hz accoring to Dr Kim).
Quote from: anjaq on September 12, 2015, 06:10:56 PM
So the D below Middle C is the D3, which is below the C4, right? Thats about 150 Hz I think. This is great. I heard this from many others who had VFS. For me the lowest is the A below the low C. So thats A2 (115 Hz). I can speak at C3 or D3 if I want to. I believe my voice wants to either sit there when I am in some sort of "male resonance mode" maybe - or it wants to sit at a G3 or A3 in a more feminine resonance mode. Sometimes it seems undecided and go all across these pitches. My old fundamental frequency was C3 (in sort of a "male mode" that I was asked to do at Yeson - 134Hz accoring to Dr Kim).
Yup. D3, which my old fundamental frequency was 152 hz, so about D3. For me the lowest note I can hit with some real resonance is F3. Then D3-E3 are pretty breathy and weak sounding.
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Quote from: Dena on September 12, 2015, 09:33:15 AM
I can get back to my preoperative voice (almost) but I can't hit the pitch that my chest voice could produce before. My chest voice moved up to where my old trained voice was and my trained voice moved into the lower female range. It sounds like your pre surgical measurements of your old voice may have been off.
I can most certainly try to get back to my pre-op voice but it sounds really ridiculous, like a girl trying to sound like a guy and totally mocking him. It does help with passing!
So, I made a little before and after video :-). I recorded stuff the night before my surgery and was waiting to create a before and after till I had healed up a bit and could talk :-).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xt-1Mx_xQc&feature=youtu.be
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Sounding good!
Incidentally, a Chinese co-worker told me that it's pronounced Yee(a)-Son. The first two characters are Chinese and apparently even a little change in the way it is pronounced completely alters the meaning.
Quote from: iKate on September 12, 2015, 08:44:55 PM
Sounding good!
Incidentally, a Chinese co-worker told me that it's pronounced Yee(a)-Son. The first two characters are Chinese and apparently even a little change in the way it is pronounced completely alters the meaning.
Good to know! I've been saying Yee-son sometimes and Yeh-son others haha.
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Quote from: Dana88 on September 12, 2015, 08:57:42 PM
Good to know! I've been saying Yee-son sometimes and Yeh-son others haha.
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In Korean, it is "Ye-song".
"Ye" means "art" in Chinese character, and "song" is the sound of "Son", a French word meaning "Sound".
http://www.yesonvc.net/introduce/hi.asp
barbie~~
Quote from: barbie on September 12, 2015, 09:15:24 PM
In Korean, it is "Ye-song".
barbie~~
Double good to know! I'm gonna trust the person who's actually Korean on this one...
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I assume Ye is not pronounced "Yay" but more like Ye olde English?
Quote from: iKate on September 12, 2015, 09:17:24 PM
I assume Ye is not pronounced "Yay" but more like Ye olde English?
Or yeh?
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Quote from: Dana88 on September 12, 2015, 09:25:55 PM
Or yeh?
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Loved your video, Dana (Stravinsky!)
You sound great and seem so confident now, congrats.
I'm sure you have your own set of exercises but one exercise that has helped me get the voice more forward and in the mask is to sing and speak on a "ming." You sound terrific but since you mentioned that was an issue for you before and after I just thought I'd throw it out there in case it can be useful.
When can you test your singing? You must be so excited to see how that develops :)
Quote from: kwala on September 13, 2015, 12:15:06 AM
Loved your video, Dana (Stravinsky!)
You sound great and seem so confident now, congrats.
I'm sure you have your own set of exercises but one exercise that has helped me get the voice more forward and in the mask is to sing and speak on a "ming." You sound terrific but since you mentioned that was an issue for you before and after I just thought I'd throw it out there in case it can be useful.
When can you test your singing? You must be so excited to see how that develops :)
Thanks! And yeah, right now my speech pathologist is having me do a lot of hum work and a lot of ing work as well. It is definitely helping. She wants to try and get the resonance sorted before we really start working on range, which I think is the right way to go. Cause especially on higher pitches I fall back into old habits. But I'm always happy for pointers and thoughts!
And I've experimented with singing a little. I can get up to a C#5 at the moment BUT it starts to get placed far back at around an F4, so I'm trying to leave it be and slowly build up note by note making sure the sound is forward and in the mask. So right now I can only get up to an E4 feeling completely forward and well placed. But a week ago I even had problems getting a C4 forward and well placed, so there's def progress.
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Dana - your result is great - such a big change. You had a success with the surgery for sure :) Congratulations!
But saying that - your pre OP voice is not nearly as bad as you made it sound like in your posts - its low for sure but not like super-low I believe it was not lower, but rather higher than the one I had originally... ut in your stats you talk about like it would have been a bass at below 100 Hz or something ;)
Quote from: anjaq on September 13, 2015, 06:19:41 AM
Dana - your result is great - such a big change. You had a success with the surgery for sure :) Congratulations!
But saying that - your pre OP voice is not nearly as bad as you made it sound like in your posts - its low for sure but not like super-low I believe it was not lower, but rather higher than the one I had originally... ut in your stats you talk about like it would have been a bass at below 100 Hz or something ;)
Thanks! I appreciate it!
And no I didn't... I said multiple times that my preop voice was 152 hz, and said multiple times that it was on the high end for a male to begin with (the average male range being 90hz-150hz). So I'm not sure where you got that idea from but I had been very specific about my preop voice and how luckily since it was at the tippy top of a male range, a 75hz bump meant getting up into the 220s :-P.
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Oh sorry, I think I confused that with the other Dana :D
Quote from: Dana88 on September 13, 2015, 08:41:41 AM
Thanks! I appreciate it!
And no I didn't... I said multiple times that my preop voice was 152 hz, and said multiple times that it was on the high end for a male to begin with (the average male range being 90hz-150hz). So I'm not sure where you got that idea from but I had been very specific about my preop voice and how luckily since it was at the tippy top of a male range, a 75hz bump meant getting up into the 220s :-P.
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I am developing voice envey ;) My usable male voice was in the 90-100Hz range but it would reach 80Hz without being uncomfortable. The 60Hz gain I have seen so far off the chest voice puts me a bit above my old trained voice and close to where your preop voice was. In any case, the voice goes well with your appearance and I suspect you will never be clocked again.
Quote from: anjaq on September 13, 2015, 09:31:00 AM
Oh sorry, I think I confused that with the other Dana :D
I think I heard that and it may be the second time in 24 hours that my name was misspelled ;D
Quote from: anjaq on September 13, 2015, 09:31:00 AM
Oh sorry, I think I confused that with the other Dana :D
No worries!
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Quote from: Dena on September 13, 2015, 09:33:29 AM
I am developing voice envey ;) My usable male voice was in the 90-100Hz range but it would reach 80Hz without being uncomfortable. The 60Hz gain I have seen so far off the chest voice puts me a bit above my old trained voice and close to where your preop voice was. In any case, the voice goes well with your appearance and I suspect you will never be clocked again.
Thank you! I hope not! I'm getting FFS in about six weeks now [emoji15]. I'll feel more confident on the not getting clocked front once that is done. Cause I'll feel like between VFS and FFS that I should be good. Right now I still see the masculine features of my face and think it's sometimes clockable from certain angles (especially from 3/4 view and profile) and sometimes I catch people staring at me from the side haha. I have a relatively prominent brow ridge and a very strong jaw.
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Quote from: Dana88 on September 12, 2015, 08:38:46 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xt-1Mx_xQc&feature=youtu.be
Wow Dana, that's amazing.
Paige :)
Yeah - I hope your FFS surgeons know well how to deal with the VFS and not make a dent in it :) - FFS is a great thing too - gives so many women so much confidence. I sometimes wish for that too, but I guess I can do ok without it - VFS was more important for me and so I spent all the money on that one ;)
Quote from: anjaq on September 13, 2015, 02:30:51 PM
Yeah - I hope your FFS surgeons know well how to deal with the VFS and not make a dent in it :) - FFS is a great thing too - gives so many women so much confidence. I sometimes wish for that too, but I guess I can do ok without it - VFS was more important for me and so I spent all the money on that one ;)
I agree. VFS was the most important thing to me because I use my voice so much and also because I know the passing power of the voice.
I'm saving FFS for later on but I may end up doing SRS first. I mean, passing is more or less a given now but I look at myself in the mirror and I see a lot of him there. I want him gone, more or less.
I think the biggest worry really is intubation but with so many girls getting VFS now I think most of the FFS surgeons know how to deal with us.
I would still make extra sure they know how to hande a VFS throat for intubation! It may look like VFS is becoming common but thats just our impression here - overall it still is a rare procedure. I also made an emergency card for my wallet now to inform EMT personnell and surgeons in case of an accident or emergency surgery about my VFS and how to generally deal with it, just to make sure they don't destroy anything. A GRS surgeon I was talking to half a year ago warned me that he has seen this happen several times, that a careless intubation can destroy a glottoplasty web even years after it was created just because someone used a intubator that was too big and basically shoved it down by force. Yikes. I would hope I never will be treated my a medic who is like that, but you never know.
I have the same reasons for FFS I guess - not because people would stare at me or something, but I dont like my own face the way it is :( - stupid. Maybe I should just get used to it somehow.
but voice was a passing factor - it got me into trouble having to ask weird questions several times and I hope this is gone now.
Quote from: anjaq on September 13, 2015, 04:19:32 PM
I would still make extra sure they know how to hande a VFS throat for intubation! It may look like VFS is becoming common but thats just our impression here - overall it still is a rare procedure. I also made an emergency card for my wallet now to inform EMT personnell and surgeons in case of an accident or emergency surgery about my VFS and how to generally deal with it, just to make sure they don't destroy anything. A GRS surgeon I was talking to half a year ago warned me that he has seen this happen several times, that a careless intubation can destroy a glottoplasty web even years after it was created just because someone used a intubator that was too big and basically shoved it down by force. Yikes. I would hope I never will be treated my a medic who is like that, but you never know.
I have the same reasons for FFS I guess - not because people would stare at me or something, but I dont like my own face the way it is :( - stupid. Maybe I should just get used to it somehow.
but voice was a passing factor - it got me into trouble having to ask weird questions several times and I hope this is gone now.
I'm using Facial Team who not only knows what to do but is close with Dr. Kim and has gone to observe him in Seoul to watch him performing VFS as well as apparently Dr. Kim has watched them do FFS. Dr. Kim asked me where I'm going for FFS and I said Facial Team and he said "Good. Facial Team is very very careful with the voice." And then I'm using Suporn for SRS about six months from now, who is the same. He and Dr. Kim have apparently observed each other's procedures and know how to deal with it. For both Suporn and Facial Team I had to give them a totally separate questionnaire for my VFS. I'd be lying if I said it doesn't worry me at all, but at least Suporn and Facial Team seem to know what to do. I have raised that concern with both surgeons and both seem to have an extensive protocol in place for those who have had VFS.
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PS out of curiosity, from both my mom and I, I measured her fundamental frequency. She was like... I think my voice is lower than yours... How can I find out? Haha. SO! She was right haha. My mom is 177 hz. I was 240! That was the highest my voice has clocked yet. I think a big part of that is more range and therefore more peaks and valleys in my speech pattern.
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PS out of curiosity, from both my mom and I, I measured her fundamental frequency. She was like... I think my voice is lower than yours... How can I find out? Haha. SO! She was right haha. My mom is 177 hz. I was 240! That was the highest my voice has clocked yet. I think a big part of that is more range and therefore more peaks and valleys in my speech pattern.
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Maybe she should record a voice sample and post it here so we can judge it. ;D
Quote from: Paige on September 13, 2015, 01:15:05 PM
Wow Dana, that's amazing.
Paige :)
Thank you!!!
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Quote from: Dena on September 13, 2015, 07:16:00 PM
Maybe she should record a voice sample and post it here so we can judge it. ;D
Yes! Yes I should haha. But not tell anyone the recording is a cis woman.
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Quote from: Dana88 on September 13, 2015, 07:04:16 PM
PS out of curiosity, from both my mom and I, I measured her fundamental frequency. She was like... I think my voice is lower than yours... How can I find out? Haha. SO! She was right haha. My mom is 177 hz. I was 240! That was the highest my voice has clocked yet. I think a big part of that is more range and therefore more peaks and valleys in my speech pattern.
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My mom usually speaks around 220Hz or so but she sounds like she is pushing it down. Relaxed she is about 250-260.
I have had cis women tell me my voice sounds more feminine than theirs though.
I think some cis women, especially older ones, will have voices that would be misjudged by the people in this forum if posted here with the assumption it is a trans voice ;)
I recorded my mom and me talking one day and basically we had rather similar pitches. Mine is a bit more hoarse and sounds less healthy, hers sounds - well - older. She had some passages where she clearly was higher than me, but in most vases we both went for averages that go from 170 to 220 dependin on the sentence and mood and inflections.
People told me that the recoding sound slike just a recording of two women who are not too young anymore having a conversation. I guess if one takes into account that I am 40 already, my voice is in a range that fits that age. (Although of course part of me wants still to be that 20-something feminine girl with a higher voice and a slender body - lol, but there is no chance for that anymore)
Quote from: anjaq on September 13, 2015, 04:19:32 PM
I would still make extra sure they know how to hande a VFS throat for intubation! It may look like VFS is becoming common but thats just our impression here - overall it still is a rare procedure. I also made an emergency card for my wallet now to inform EMT personnell and surgeons in case of an accident or emergency surgery about my VFS and how to generally deal with it, just to make sure they don't destroy anything. A GRS surgeon I was talking to half a year ago warned me that he has seen this happen several times, that a careless intubation can destroy a glottoplasty web even years after it was created just because someone used a intubator that was too big and basically shoved it down by force. Yikes. I would hope I never will be treated my a medic who is like that, but you never know.
I have the same reasons for FFS I guess - not because people would stare at me or something, but I dont like my own face the way it is :( - stupid. Maybe I should just get used to it somehow.
but voice was a passing factor - it got me into trouble having to ask weird questions several times and I hope this is gone now.
Could you post the technical wording of your intubation warning Anja? I am scheduled for SRS in February and had VFS in Korea as you know 8 weeks ago. I am a bit concerned in case they destroy the web.
Thanks.
Quote from: Teslagirl on September 14, 2015, 07:19:18 PM
Could you post the technical wording of your intubation warning Anja? I am scheduled for SRS in February and had VFS in Korea as you know 8 weeks ago. I am a bit concerned in case they destroy the web.
Thanks.
The issue is that the intubation tube passes through the vocal chords. So if the tube they use is too large it can tear the surgical site and basically undo the VFS. That's why Dr. Kim says that they have to use a certain size tube. Dr. Suporn is apparently one of the surgeons who has worked closely with Dr. Kim and has a stringent protocol in place for those who have had VFS, but I would still reiterate and make absolutely sure on everything before going under with both Dr. Suporn and the anesthesiologist.
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Hi. Dr Suporn and Facial Team are aware of Dr Kims surgeries and know how to deal with them. For all others, basically the instructions are to use small intubators (tube size 5.5 or 6) and to be extremely careful when inserting and removing it, as it has a bigger part at the lower end that needs to be navigated through the opening of the vocal folds.
My card currently looks like this:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FN3vWeaj.png&hash=f4d183a59d6412ef0f2e8700f38ff38bbf7c19f0)
I am still thinking about how to word it differently, maybe easier and more clear - but it should fit on a credit card sized piece of paper in my wallet...
If anyone has better ideas by the way, something that could be improved - or wants the photoshop file for this, please tell me so.
Quote from: anjaq on September 15, 2015, 08:56:42 AM
Hi. Dr Suporn and Facial Team are aware of Dr Kims surgeries and know how to deal with them. For all others, basically the instructions are to use small intubators (tube size 5.5 or 6) and to be extremely careful when inserting and removing it, as it has a bigger part at the lower end that needs to be navigated through the opening of the vocal folds.
My card currently looks like this:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FN3vWeaj.png&hash=f4d183a59d6412ef0f2e8700f38ff38bbf7c19f0)
I am still thinking about how to word it differently, maybe easier and more clear - but it should fit on a credit card sized piece of paper in my wallet...
If anyone has better ideas by the way, something that could be improved - or wants the photoshop file for this, please tell me so.
Yes please, can you send me the Photoshop file?
Are you medically trained? I've never heard the phrase 'anterior synchenia'. I know you said Dr Suporn knows about VFS but I still can't help being worried about intubation with my upcoming SRS. I hope the anaesthetist has a good understanding of English.
This is really well designed Anja!
That is good. I am gettig a medical ID bracelet and will also include some info.
No, I am a scientist and doctor but not a medical doctor - just a biochemist :D - But I know some words - anterior means frontal (as in the full name of Dr Kims procedure : vocal fold shortening and advancement of the anterior commissure) and I just saw that I misspelled Vocal fold synechia - I need to correct this and print it again. Thanks. The term synechia basically means that something is grown together.
Quote from: Teslagirl on September 15, 2015, 03:00:38 PM
Yes please, can you send me the Photoshop file?
I uploaded it in the Yeson patient support group on Facebook.
Quote from: anjaq on September 15, 2015, 08:56:42 AM
Hi. Dr Suporn and Facial Team are aware of Dr Kims surgeries and know how to deal with them. For all others, basically the instructions are to use small intubators (tube size 5.5 or 6) and to be extremely careful when inserting and removing it, as it has a bigger part at the lower end that needs to be navigated through the opening of the vocal folds.
My card currently looks like this:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FN3vWeaj.png&hash=f4d183a59d6412ef0f2e8700f38ff38bbf7c19f0)
I am still thinking about how to word it differently, maybe easier and more clear - but it should fit on a credit card sized piece of paper in my wallet...
If anyone has better ideas by the way, something that could be improved - or wants the photoshop file for this, please tell me so.
This is a REALLY good idea. Totally gonna use it.
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I am trying to attach a file - its in some old Photoshop Format - I hope it is useable anyways. And I had to zip it so the forum would accept the upload. Hope this works
It works but it will require approval. I know there is nothing offensive in it but there are policy issues I am still learning about so somebody else will need to agree to the approval.
Can someone send me the link to the group?
The facebook support group for Yeson patients is secret, so you need to contact someone who is in the group to be invited. This is to protect your Facebook profile from showing up "trans content" if you do not want everyone to know this part of your life.
I will see if I can speed up the process of enabling the link.
Quote from: anjaq on September 16, 2015, 09:22:26 AM
The facebook support group for Yeson patients is secret, so you need to contact someone who is in the group to be invited. This is to protect your Facebook profile from showing up "trans content" if you do not want everyone to know this part of your life.
Good move.
I am very "light" on trans content in my profile, although it is not totally out of it. But I like the option of privacy.
I approved it. It's safe and I don't see an issue in doing that. Hugs
Mariah
Quote from: anjaq on September 15, 2015, 04:12:13 PM
No, I am a scientist and doctor but not a medical doctor - just a biochemist :D - But I know some words - anterior means frontal (as in the full name of Dr Kims procedure : vocal fold shortening and advancement of the anterior commissure) and I just saw that I misspelled Vocal fold synechia - I need to correct this and print it again. Thanks. The term synechia basically means that something is grown together.
Just for clarity, is the commisure to the front (facewards) or toward the back? In other words, does the intubation tube have to pass the vocal folds at the top or the bottom?
The commissure is at the anterior side of the larynx, this is the frontal side. The vocal chords open towards the back.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcompletevocal.institute%2Ffiles%2F2013%2F12%2FSk%25C3%25A6rmbillede-2013-11-30-kl.-18.53.541-1024x515.png&hash=47a1e3d3fc7aca1c5491fdc1713bafd35c429e80)
12 weeks and I think the botox is starting to wear off. My voice is not as breathy and my upper range is slowly returning.
Quote from: iKate on September 17, 2015, 01:27:17 PM
12 weeks and I think the botox is starting to wear off. My voice is not as breathy and my upper range is slowly returning.
You mean your voice actually improved with the end of the Botox? Wow. For many this is the reverse and there was often the description of the "dreaded month 4" when Botox wears off and the voice temporarily gets worse. For me certainly it got worse...
Quote from: anjaq on September 17, 2015, 03:51:08 AM
The commissure is at the anterior side of the larynx, this is the frontal side. The vocal chords open towards the back.
Thanks Anja.
Sarah.
Quote from: anjaq on September 17, 2015, 03:52:35 PM
You mean your voice actually improved with the end of the Botox? Wow. For many this is the reverse and there was often the description of the "dreaded month 4" when Botox wears off and the voice temporarily gets worse. For me certainly it got worse...
yeah, maybe I will get worse, but I actually do sound better. But maybe Botox didn't fully wear off yet.
Quote from: iKate on September 17, 2015, 09:21:46 PM
yeah, maybe I will get worse, but I actually do sound better. But maybe Botox didn't fully wear off yet.
Well I guess it also depends a lot on the strength of the vocal tremors. I guess mine and Jennygirls were rather strong as well as that in some others - I think for Jenny, Dr Kim even recommended getting more Botox IIRC? For me he recommended the full legth of the clonazepam treatment - others like Amy needed no Botox treatment at all or took the Clonazepam just a month or so. If your vocal tremors are not strong, maybe it will just be fine, your voice gets better and you do not need those pills at all... :)
Quote from: anjaq on September 18, 2015, 01:17:39 AM
Well I guess it also depends a lot on the strength of the vocal tremors. I guess mine and Jennygirls were rather strong as well as that in some others - I think for Jenny, Dr Kim even recommended getting more Botox IIRC? For me he recommended the full legth of the clonazepam treatment - others like Amy needed no Botox treatment at all or took the Clonazepam just a month or so. If your vocal tremors are not strong, maybe it will just be fine, your voice gets better and you do not need those pills at all... :)
Interesting. For me he gave me the clonazepam and said to take it IF around month four I started to get weak or hoarse etc. But there was the caveat of if. That said he told me my tremor wasn't terrible. So maybe that's why?
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Mine he said I had a tremor and he gave me the botox and clonazepam.
I'm not sure I'll take the clonazepam because I heard of its awful side effects.
Changing your name post VFS by telephone is fun, just sayin'...
They almost always refer to my old name in the third person until I tell them that it's my name that I'm changing... ;D
For me, the Clonazepam had no real side effects. I am not sure it has much effect either , though. My voice definitely had all those signs he told me at month 3.5 already when the Botox was wearing off early - hoarseness, increased problems with it - so I had to take it, but I still had a lot of these issues - not sure if they really improved much by taking it. We had to work on it in the weekly voice therapy sessions to get it better... I hope now that if I am getting off the pills, I will not get another dip in the voice quality again as it was when the Botox was ending. It takes quite some exercises and training to correct it, if another dip happens
I am not complaining, but this morning on the ham radio I was asked how old I was. I told him a lady doesn't reveal her age, but I said in my 30s.
The person on the other end thought I was in my teens.
That's kind of the danger of getting your pitch too too high.
Then again ham radio is full of a bunch of old guys, so I'm not really surprised.
Quote from: iKate on September 20, 2015, 11:33:24 AM
I am not complaining, but this morning on the ham radio I was asked how old I was. I told him a lady doesn't reveal her age, but I said in my 30s.
The person on the other end thought I was in my teens.
That's kind of the danger of getting your pitch too too high.
Then again ham radio is full of a bunch of old guys, so I'm not really surprised.
My wife's voice isn't that high pitched (just a little higher than mine, but she says mine is higher), but it does sound like a kids voice. I remember her caller her credit card company to report a wrongful charge on her card. The customer service representative wouldn't believe that it was her on the phone even though she answered all the security questions. He kept saying "put your mommy on the phone", LOL. She ended up hanging up and calling again and got a different person who did believe her.
Lol - thats weird problems :) - I used to be judged less in age based on my looks when I was in my late 20ies and on a good hormone therapy - I was even asked to a ID when I wanted to buy something that was "minimum age 18"... but my voice now, I guess it matches that of a 40 year old woman that is not very petite, so I think its ok.
Just sometimes I wish secretly that i would have a girls voice again - I kind of missed having a teenage girl voice and a twen voice... but I cannot get things now that are in my past, right...
It also explains why I am carded a lot of the time for buying alcohol and other age restricted things.
Quote from: iKate on September 20, 2015, 12:50:03 PM
It also explains why I am carded a lot of the time for buying alcohol and other age restricted things.
I hate to tell you this but I think it's because it looks like you have flawless skin that I would expect to see on a teen. I on the other hand have had more years to accumulate a few wrinkles. I do appear younger than my age but it's still old enough to buy forbidden items without being carded.
Quote from: Dena on September 21, 2015, 12:10:27 AM
I hate to tell you this but I think it's because it looks like you have flawless skin that I would expect to see on a teen. I on the other hand have had more years to accumulate a few wrinkles. I do appear younger than my age but it's still old enough to buy forbidden items without being carded.
Flawless, eh. It's more like all the classes I took at Sephora on how to do my makeup, lol. My colleagues do say my skin looks pretty young though. My dr changed up my hormones recently too so my skin may end up looking more baby like.
So the voice exercises.
I don't know if anyone else has this problem but doing the stretching/range exercises vibrates my teeth and lips to the point of being unable to do the exercises with any power because it tickles my lips.
Any suggestions? I suspect it's because I have very little chest resonance.
Maybe use less volume - make them at a lower volume and less powerful? Or modify them and use "L" or "N" instead of "M", although that also resonates a lot in the lips.
I just had a reminder again why this is all worth so much - I was woken up by a phone call that I had to answer. And it did not even cost me a thought to pick up and talk to the woman on the other side about an ultrasound breast examination I have soon. Actually I think my voice was easier and better at that moment than even during normal days now - probably because I just talked and did not think at all ;) - so great.
Quote from: anjaq on September 23, 2015, 05:58:22 AM
I jus thad a reminder again why this is all worth so much - I was woken up by a phone call that I had to answer. And it did not even cost me a thought to pick up and talk to the woman on the other side about an ultrasound breast examination I have in October. Actually I think my voice was easier and better at that moment than even during normal days now - probably becaus eI just talked and did not think at all ;) - so great.
That's wonderful!
Quote from: anjaq on September 23, 2015, 05:58:22 AM
I just had a reminder again why this is all worth so much - I was woken up by a phone call that I had to answer. And it did not even cost me a thought to pick up and talk to the woman on the other side about an ultrasound breast examination I have soon. Actually I think my voice was easier and better at that moment than even during normal days now - probably because I just talked and did not think at all ;) - so great.
Yes, that is really the biggest thing for me!!!
Today I had to show ID to enter a building at a vendor's demo lab. My gender marker is female but my name is still my old name. My old name is sorta unisex, or at least some women have my name.
I was gendered female all the way. The receptionist even chatted with me in the ladies, without even batting an eye. I talked in a conference room full of people, no one really looked funny at me, and I was gendered female all the way.
Passing now has become such a given that I absolutely do not worry about it and that is extremely wonderful for me.
Since passing really isn't an issue for me now, I think I may even end up skipping FFS for now and just do my GCS, but maybe save FFS for later...
Yeah - I have the same thoughts about FFS - last year I thought I want both - VFS and FFS. Then decided VFS is mor eimportant and now I would have to save up money for 3-4 years for FFS, but am not even sure at this time if I really will do this. It certainly is not really needed to "pass" - if I would do it now, I would do it to be able to see myself in the mirror mostly - and maybe to be more attractive to others ;)
Strangely, during daytime I am more self conscious about my voice , still - but it was kind of funny because that thinking was not yet awake that early in the morning in bed ;)
Honestly as I see more time on HRT as well, I am growing more into the woman I am and who I want to be. My face still has some masculine features, but they are fading with E and now, P.
Yes - proper hormone treatment does a lot - i experience a lot of facial feminization by hormones since I changed HRT 2 years ago as well.
So - 7 months voice update - 2 days ago the Clonazepam ran out - the change seems to not be that negative as I feared - but I noticed that some things like controlling the break is more difficult. To be fair, I recorded both clips after doing the exercises - my voice tends to be worse before doing them...
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1UyH3FApLAI german
http://vocaroo.com/i/s17rGQbjMqmc english
both come out at 185-190 Hz, the low points are however in the 130-140 Hz range in both recordings, so my voice can drop pretty low for some words, but the ear of the listener will probably average it out ;) - and without these lows, I would have less voice melody.
Both samples sound near identical so you are not changing pitch between languages. The inflection is enough to sound feminine but isn't over done and the pitch while low genders female. I think you have a winner as that voice should pass the telephone test.
Anjaq, those samples sound amazing! Your voice is rather charming too :) congratulations!
So, I'm wondering if my Botox might be wearing off earlier than expected. The past week or two I feel like my voice has backtracked (weaker, more apt to break, tires a little more easily). I know the Botox is supposed to last approximately 16 weeks and right now I'm at almost 11.
But also I remember Dr. Kim did my Botox before the 7 day mark because I had a Friday preop and Monday surgery, so my postop when I got the Botox was day 5 postop. He had said since external healing wasn't totally totally complete (though he saw on the endoscope it was close), that I had to be extra careful with making noise that 24 hours because otherwise the Botox could leak into the surgical site and get cleaned out of my system. Basically he said if that were to happen, it wouldn't have an averse effect on the final surgical outcome, the Botox just wouldn't last as long as normal. And in that 24 hours when I was supposed to be extra careful, I accidentally said "no thank you," to a guy accosting me on the street with a menu.
I'm gonna email Dr. Kim about it but it's the only explanation I can think of. None of my habits have changed at all... But it felt like my voice was on a steady climb, each week better than the next. Suddenly it feels worse. Also as a note, it's worse in the morning and at night. Usually during the day after my first round of exercises I feel great, until about 7 or 8PM or so. I should also note, when I was talking to my parents about it they were like, you still sound great. And I recorded myself, and I do. So it doesn't sound bad, it just doesn't feel good and feels like it takes more effort to speak. For those who have reached the Botox wearing off stage, does this sound at all similar?
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Hi
For me, Botox did last about 13 weeks, not 16, so I had to start on the Clonazpam early, even though I had my Botox shot at the 7 day mark as planned. I totally can imagine that if Dr Kim already said it might last less, that at week 11 you can already have the point where it wears off. I personally wish, my botox would have lasted longer because in the first 4 weeks it basically does nothing and in the 4 weeks after it has little to do, the main effect would have been after week 8 when one does voice training. But it cannot be helped.
You can write Dr Kim an email, be sure to include a voice file, otherwise he will ask for one anyways and you just wait for some days for that reply ;) . I think he will recommend to start the Clonazepam then.
And yes - for me Botox wearing off was the feeling that I had a harder time controlling my voice, I was getting more hoarse and more strained. For me the Clonazepam did not do too much to help all of these things, I mainly had to work with the voice exercises and voice rehab to improve those things.
I don't know if mine wore off but my voice quality is a bit different now. 13 weeks here as well.
I got my botox on day 6.
But I have zero endurance issues or anything else described.
Quote from: anjaq on September 26, 2015, 04:21:17 AM
Hi
For me, Botox did last about 13 weeks, not 16, so I had to start on the Clonazpam early, even though I had my Botox shot at the 7 day mark as planned. I totally can imagine that if Dr Kim already said it might last less, that at week 11 you can already have the point where it wears off. I personally wish, my botox would have lasted longer because in the first 4 weeks it basically does nothing and in the 4 weeks after it has little to do, the main effect would have been after week 8 when one does voice training. But it cannot be helped.
You can write Dr Kim an email, be sure to include a voice file, otherwise he will ask for one anyways and you just wait for some days for that reply ;) . I think he will recommend to start the Clonazepam then.
And yes - for me Botox wearing off was the feeling that I had a harder time controlling my voice, I was getting more hoarse and more strained. For me the Clonazepam did not do too much to help all of these things, I mainly had to work with the voice exercises and voice rehab to improve those things.
Good to know! Thanks :-). Gonna email him tonight. Again, during the day my voice sounds great, and then it's at night that it starts getting rough. So I'm gonna wait till the problem starts later tonight to record something to send him, cause if I recorded something now, it would sound good.
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Hmm - I guess if it is only getting bad after a day of talking, its not too bad yet. It may be that you are just using your voice a lot more and that is IMO a problem that lasts for months - if I talk too loudly or for a long time, I still get a bad voice later on and tension and all that. I guess it takes those 12 months for this to settle down
Quote from: anjaq on September 26, 2015, 04:58:42 PM
Hmm - I guess if it is only getting bad after a day of talking, its not too bad yet. It may be that you are just using your voice a lot more and that is IMO a problem that lasts for months - if I talk too loudly or for a long time, I still get a bad voice later on and tension and all that. I guess it takes those 12 months for this to settle down
Yeah, and weirdly I was out ALL night last night for my birthday, and we were in a loud bar so I was talking loudly all night, and my voice felt fine when we went for late 3AM drunk food. In fact it felt more than fine, it felt particularly good. So I don't know haha.
I haven't posted a recording in a while. This is my 13 weeks post-op.
You can hear the breathiness going away and the power returning.
The quality is a little less and the pitch is a bit lower than I usually am as last night I was out hanging out with my friends having a lot of drinks (to celebrate my birthday and name change) and eating a ton of spicy food that we made. So I am a little sore this morning.
But it is what it is. I wasn't clocked by anyone yesterday, but last night I asked a liquor store clerk why I had to show my ID (yet again). She said she really thought I was 19 or 20. She examined the ID long and hard to make sure it wasn't fake.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0NSX7VP1483
Quote from: Dana88 on September 27, 2015, 02:59:33 PM
Yeah, and weirdly I was out ALL night last night for my birthday, and we were in a loud bar so I was talking loudly all night, and my voice felt fine when we went for late 3AM drunk food. In fact it felt more than fine, it felt particularly good. So I don't know haha.
When I'm at the shooting range I have to talk loud because, duh, it's loud and people have earmuffs on. But usually after when I'm with the ladies Bs'ing and stuff as well as my other friends I'm fine.
Jamie (J-Mi aka lovelyjmi) is releasing her documentary on her Yeson VFS journey this Saturday. It'll be linked on their facebook, J-Mi and Midi-D I am guessing.
Quote from: iKate on September 27, 2015, 05:25:16 PM
I haven't posted a recording in a while. This is my 13 weeks post-op.
You can hear the breathiness going away and the power returning.
The quality is a little less and the pitch is a bit lower than I usually am as last night I was out hanging out with my friends having a lot of drinks (to celebrate my birthday and name change) and eating a ton of spicy food that we made. So I am a little sore this morning.
But it is what it is. I wasn't clocked by anyone yesterday, but last night I asked a liquor store clerk why I had to show my ID (yet again). She said she really thought I was 19 or 20. She examined the ID long and hard to make sure it wasn't fake.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0NSX7VP1483
You sound fantastic!!
I had voice feminization surgery at Yeson Voice Center early August this year (2015). It's almost been two months (only a few days away) and I can honestly say I am extremely dissatisfied with the results so far. I see these videos they post that show two month results and they all sound so good. The voice samples I have heard here sound good too, it makes me wonder if mine will ever sound better. My boyfriend and my Mom don't think I sound any different at all and I have to say that I agree with them. I know it hasn't quite been two months yet, but I'm having a REAL hard time believing that physically shortening my vocal chords does not have an immediate change in pitch. From a logical standpoint that makes absolutely NO sense. When I asked them about this they told me that it could be 4-5 months, so I can't quite rage about it yet but I'm having a tough time believing this after seeing videos and hearing the results here. Why would I be a special case? I swear if I have one more botched surgery I'm going to absolutely loose it.
Where did you have surgery done?
Yeson, I thought that was auto assumed since that's the name of this thread...
Can you post a recording?
Also, if your trained voice was in the female range before, that could have an effect. Usually those who see no results have had trained voices and either their expectations were too high or for some reason their brain just doesn't try to go higher with the voice pitch.
Quote from: Perfection on October 01, 2015, 02:00:49 AM
Yeson, I thought that was auto assumed since that's the name of this thread...
Assumption is the death of communication.
I went with Dr Haben and to benefit from his surgery, I have to continue to use my trained voice. In addition, at almost three months I still have some swelling that isn't allowing full use of the voice. The surgery at best will only give you about a 80 Hz change and if you had a voice as low as mine, about 90 Hz, without the trained voice I still sound male. This is one reason why therapy is important if you don't know how to use a trained voice.
So, I recorded a lil' singing :). My singing voice is still not really 'back.' That said it's DEFINITELY higher. But it still feels/sounds a bit strained and I had to use a liiiiiittttle more autotune than I normally would haha. Also vibrato for me right now is very inconsistent and uneven. Generally for not even three months postop, I'm pretty happy. I think I sound a bit more like a high tenor than a girl, BUT knowing that the notes are coming back and my singing voice is getting stronger and into a female range, I know I can train the tone quality to sound more feminine as I go along and as I recover more and more.
This song is actually one I wrote for a show of mine called MADAME. It takes place in New Orleans in 1896 and the song is song by a prostitute haha.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1yHA2nvJrvs
Here I a still trying to get over the swelling so I can talk for an extended period of time and you turn something like that out. I am impressed. This is the second time you have mentioned your work that I saw and I guess I need to see if it will show anywhere in Arizona and if so, make an effort to see it.
Quote from: Dena on October 03, 2015, 07:03:13 PM
Here I a still trying to get over the swelling so I can talk for an extended period of time and you turn something like that out. I am impressed. This is the second time you have mentioned your work that I saw and I guess I need to see if it will show anywhere in Arizona and if so, make an effort to see it.
Thank you! I hope some day!
If you're interested, here's a video of a song from the same show with a REAL singer singing it haha:
https://vimeo.com/132678742
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Dana, beautiful singing job, I'm thoroughly impressed too. I normally don't due a ton of listening in the voice and surgery forum, but yours was worth listening too. Hugs
Mariah
Quote from: Mariah2014 on October 03, 2015, 07:18:44 PM
Dana, beautiful singing job, I'm thoroughly impressed too. I normally don't due a ton of listening in the voice and surgery forum, but yours was worth listening too. Hugs
Mariah
Thanks Mariah!
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Sounds good! My singing voice isn't fully "back" yet but I've tried singing a few songs. I'm no better at singing than I was before though, just higher pitched. :p
Yesterday I was at a conference running a table/booth and no one who didn't know said a thing to me about Trans anything. I did mention it to a few people but I didn't go around telling every single person. It was kind of nice not to have to deal with his voice. However questions about "my husband*" surfaced and were a bit awkward. So I kind of told them that I'm Trans they were like, NO WAY.
Bonus: I was at the bar afterwards in Applebee's and we were really having a good time and I was able to laugh as scandalously as I wanted. Nobody said a thing and people laughed along with my jokes. Lol. Bartender didn't clock me at all. That's always good.
*some of these people know me on FB but they think my old self still exists and I'm his wife. I tend to set the record straight in this case as these are not really friends but people who look up to and respect me for my advocacy work.
If the husband wife thing pops up you can always use SO instead. In older days better half would have been used. Let people think what they want and you aren't lying.
I'm not opposed to explaining actually. I use spouse more often than not though.
Quote from: Dana88 on October 03, 2015, 06:47:14 PM
So, I recorded a lil' singing :). My singing voice is still not really 'back.' That said it's DEFINITELY higher. But it still feels/sounds a bit strained and I had to use a liiiiiittttle more autotune than I normally would haha. Also vibrato for me right now is very inconsistent and uneven. Generally for not even three months postop, I'm pretty happy. I think I sound a bit more like a high tenor than a girl, BUT knowing that the notes are coming back and my singing voice is getting stronger and into a female range, I know I can train the tone quality to sound more feminine as I go along and as I recover more and more.
This song is actually one I wrote for a show of mine called MADAME. It takes place in New Orleans in 1896 and the song is song by a prostitute haha.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1yHA2nvJrvs
Dana, first of all love the composition, and second of all you sound fantastic. I see what you mean about sounding slightly tenorish, but girl you're already belting out high A's and C's in chest voice in your first attempt at singing? Very impressive results!
Quote from: kwala on October 04, 2015, 08:46:58 PM
Dana, first of all love the composition, and second of all you sound fantastic. I see what you mean about sounding slightly tenorish, but girl you're already belting out high A's and C's in chest voice in your first attempt at singing? Very impressive results!
Thanks! And yeah, I'm CERTAINLY not unhappy at only 3 monthsish postop. As I said, my singing *range* is clearly entering into alto/belter land, and I know I can train the "tenor" out and "alto" in in terms of tone quality as long as the range is there, which right now it seems like it's getting there and I know it'll only increase as time goes on.
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I am very impressed with the singing! Amazing. It really seems that singers can do a lot with the voice surgery. Especially with Dr Kims method. I still wonder about that vocal break though - you are going very high in the song and you seem to still be in a full modal ("chest") voice - is your voice break naturally high, did it change with surgery or is it just because you are a good singer that it does not appear to be an issue?
I think I will try singing lessons when I am past the 12 months stage. At least some simple things, I want to be able to sing and actually hit the notes right. ;)
Currently I am back to my pre OP voice thanks to a stupid cold. Pretty much exactly 145 Hz in Praat , which was my old pre op relaxed trained voice, which is what I do now as well ("trained"=controlling resonance). This sucks, but it is clearly audible that I have a bad cold, so I think it will not change the "passing". If I had a cold like that pre OP, I would be at 90-100 Hz or something...
Quote from: anjaq on October 05, 2015, 02:48:34 AM
Currently I am back to my pre OP voice thanks to a stupid cold. Pretty much exactly 145 Hz in Praat , which was my old pre op relaxed trained voice, which is what I do now as well ("trained"=controlling resonance). This sucks, but it is clearly audible that I have a bad cold, so I think it will not change the "passing". If I had a cold like that pre OP, I would be at 90-100 Hz or something...
I find that while my pitch dips if I have phlegm, the timbre is different so I end up being read as female anyway.
Quote from: anjaq on October 05, 2015, 02:45:50 AM
I am very impressed with the singing! Amazing. It really seems that singers can do a lot with the voice surgery. Especially with Dr Kims method. I still wonder about that vocal break though - you are going very high in the song and you seem to still be in a full modal ("chest") voice - is your voice break naturally high, did it change with surgery or is it just because you are a good singer that it does not appear to be an issue?
I think I will try singing lessons when I am past the 12 months stage. At least some simple things, I want to be able to sing and actually hit the notes right. ;)
My break has absolutely shifted up, there's no need for me to flip into a head register till above a C5. Pre-op my break was around an D4/E4 though I could still belt in complete chest voice to about an Ab4 without needing to flip to a head register. Now it seems my break is about an A4, and as of this moment I can belt to a C5 in complete chest voice. I'm hoping to get even more range on the pure chest register, and then also develop a more feminine mix voice.
And yeah, it's one of the many reasons I ended up choosing Dr. Kim over Dr. Thomas or Dr. Haben. Dr. Kim really does seem to have the most consistent success with singing outcome, at least from all the people I was talking to before settling on him. And since I am in the music field, obviously my singing voice was important to me.
Here's a vid of me singing at the piano pre transition to give you a sense of what I used to sound like singing wise:
http://youtu.be/W8FAltYq-9k
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Yeah, I can't really find when I shift from chest to head voice. As I mentioned though, I seem to be mostly head-ish kind of voice. I barely feel any chest vibration. It doesn't sound falsetto like me trying a high voice before though.
Quote from: Dana88 on October 05, 2015, 11:49:20 AM
My break has absolutely shifted up, there's no need for me to flip into a head register till above a C5. Pre-op my break was around an D4/E4 though I could still belt in complete chest voice to about an Ab4 without needing to flip to a head register. Now it seems my break is about an A4, and as of this moment I can belt to a C5 in complete chest voice. I'm hoping to get even more range on the pure chest register, and then also develop a more feminine mix voice.
And yeah, it's one of the many reasons I ended up choosing Dr. Kim over Dr. Thomas or Dr. Haben. Dr. Kim really does seem to have the most consistent success with singing outcome, at least from all the people I was talking to before settling on him. And since I am in the music field, obviously my singing voice was important to me.
Here's a vid of me singing at the piano pre transition to give you a sense of what I used to sound like singing wise:
http://youtu.be/W8FAltYq-9k
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Thanks for clarifying in such detail. I'm getting surgery mainly for speaking, but any help/extra range in the singing department would be a huge bonus. I can belt to Bb4 now very consistently, but it sounds very masculine. I can stretch it to B4 and C5 if I really push but it sounds really strained and rough in addition to being inconsistent. My surgery with Dr. Haben is only two weeks away so it will be very interesting to see if my break area has a shift. It'll be a while until I'm healed enough to sing but I'll be more than happy to report on this subject as a patient of Dr. Haben.
This is interesting and strange. I would be happy if someone getting the procedure would ask Dr kim or Dr Haben about that voice break point and what determines where it sits or if it shifts.
You all have such high breaking points, I am envious! Mine was at C4 and still is at C4 and that is almost an octave lower than what you here all seem to to have!
I recorded a rainbow passage in my broken voice with laryngitis (http://vocaroo.com/i/s1i9FIvs6VS8) of course. It reads 145 Hz but I dont think it sounds overly male... so yeah - it sounds like my pre op trained voice which also had a more female timbre, but that is without me doing anything basically but trying to use my voice in a way that works at all....
Dana - After hearing your voice, I am beginning to regret not getting the triple. I had hopes that I would be able to sing with the new voice and the triple would prevent it. While my new voice is a big improvement over the old one, I have to use the head voice and am only able to reach about C5(just checked). It is clearly not going to be much of a singing voice. I can get as low as C3 but I don't think I want to be a singer in that range. I can see from your before voice why your after voice turned out so well. You all ready had a much higher male voice than I did so it wasn't much of a move to put you into the female range. Well if I can't sing, I will just enjoy your voice.
anjaq - That was an interesting voice sample. You are correct that it genders female even at that pitch. I think some of what does it is the breathiness. It softens the voice making it sound feminine. I may need to work on that idea if I ever get my voice back.
Quote from: anjaq on October 05, 2015, 06:53:08 PM
This is interesting and strange. I would be happy if someone getting the procedure would ask Dr kim or Dr Haben about that voice break point and what determines where it sits or if it shifts.
You all have such high breaking points, I am envious! Mine was at C4 and still is at C4 and that is almost an octave lower than what you here all seem to to have!
I recorded a rainbow passage in my broken voice with laryngitis (http://vocaroo.com/i/s1i9FIvs6VS8) of course. It reads 145 Hz but I dont think it sounds overly male... so yeah - it sounds like my pre op trained voice which also had a more female timbre, but that is without me doing anything basically but trying to use my voice in a way that works at all....
It's the whole equalizer thing I was talking about. VFS acts as a high pass filter, so the lower male undertones are gone. This is why voice training never worked for me, but VFS was like magic.
Quote from: Dena on October 05, 2015, 10:16:19 PM
Dana - After hearing your voice, I am beginning to regret not getting the triple. I had hopes that I would be able to sing with the new voice and the triple would prevent it. While my new voice is a big improvement over the old one, I have to use the head voice and am only able to reach about C5(just checked). It is clearly not going to be much of a singing voice. I can get as low as C3 but I don't think I want to be a singer in that range. I can see from your before voice why your after voice turned out so well. You all ready had a much higher male voice than I did so it wasn't much of a move to put you into the female range. Well if I can't sing, I will just enjoy your voice.
anjaq - That was an interesting voice sample. You are correct that it genders female even at that pitch. I think some of what does it is the breathiness. It softens the voice making it sound feminine. I may need to work on that idea if I ever get my voice back.
We all heal differently and at different rates. I also think it's partially that I studied voice for many many many years, so I'm able to play with resonance and tone, and I know how to build range etc from preop.
And yes. I've said before my fundamental frequency was on the low end of the androgynous range preop, so it meant that even the 75 hz average increase would have put me well into a female speaking range. When I measured my fundamental frequency preop it was 163 hz. When Dr. Kim measured it it was 152 hz, BUT I was sick when I first arrived and my voice was sitting a little lower than normal. So I suspect the home measurement was probably a little more accurate. At this point my post-op voice seems to land within the 248-253 hz range during the day once I'm warmed up, after a day of use it still sinks down to closer to the 218-225 hz range, but I'm certainly not complaining. I just recorded this rainbow passage:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1JrQso9U2PX
And anjaq, you are right. Even sitting down there you sound totally female.
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Quote from: Dena on October 05, 2015, 10:16:19 PM
Dana - After hearing your voice, I am beginning to regret not getting the triple.
I would not say that because as I understand the "triple" means getting additional CTA to the glottoplasty and then also a trach shave? The CTA does not really improve your singing voice. Actually Dr Kim says it's counterproductive.. Remember that CTA basically kills one of your two pitch regulating muscles, so your vocal range decreases and your pitch control is restricted! And from what I heard so far, changes in the vocal break are rather rare with both methods, it seems. Although quite a few said that the break was less pronounced after the procedures
Quoteanjaq - That was an interesting voice sample. You are correct that it genders female even at that pitch. I think some of what does it is the breathiness. It softens the voice making it sound feminine.
Well the breathiness seems to come from three things in this case - none of them really positive ;) - the cold, the withdrawal from Clonazepam and me still not using my voice properly. Some breathiness is ok to give the voice a more feminine touch, but its easy to use too much and then its doing more damage than good. Better train to use the voice without too much breathiness and use other ways of making it sound feminine.
Quote from: iKate on October 05, 2015, 10:27:22 PM
It's the whole equalizer thing I was talking about. VFS acts as a high pass filter, so the lower male undertones are gone.
Indeed! This is one of the really great things especially about glottoplasty - since it really alters the mass of the vocal folds, which is something CTA does not do, but maybe those laser based methods are doing?
In any case - I was able to be gendered female at 145 Hz pre OP most of the time, it was more or less my daily voice, sometimes 160 Hz - but in recordings I was sometimes not so sure and I was misgendered on the phone. I think now thats not going to happen :D
Quote from: anjaq on October 06, 2015, 01:59:25 AM
I would not say that because as I understand the "triple" means getting additional CTA to the glottoplasty and then also a trach shave? The CTA does not really improve your singing voice. Actually Dr Kim says it's counterproductive.. Remember that CTA basically kills one of your two pitch regulating muscles, so your vocal range decreases and your pitch control is restricted! And from what I heard so far, changes in the vocal break are rather rare with both methods, it seems. Although quite a few said that the break was less pronounced after the procedures
I may obscured what I meant a bit. My thought was if I don't really have the range for a good singing voice, maybe I should have settled for a bit better speaking voice by getting the triple.
Quote from: anjaq on October 05, 2015, 06:53:08 PM
This is interesting and strange. I would be happy if someone getting the procedure would ask Dr kim or Dr Haben about that voice break point and what determines where it sits or if it shifts.
You all have such high breaking points, I am envious! Mine was at C4 and still is at C4 and that is almost an octave lower than what you here all seem to to have!
I recorded a rainbow passage in my broken voice with laryngitis (http://vocaroo.com/i/s1i9FIvs6VS8) of course. It reads 145 Hz but I dont think it sounds overly male... so yeah - it sounds like my pre op trained voice which also had a more female timbre, but that is without me doing anything basically but trying to use my voice in a way that works at all....
Well, I think there are a lot of factors at play here. For one, I am not a singer, but I have three degrees in clarinet performance and play professionally for a living so I may have a different perspective from the average girl who is just trying to find a comfortable speaking range. Because of my training in music I'm very sensitive to pitch in a way that the average person is not. I only sing for fun, but because of my training it's sort of impossible to not be critical of every aspect and not to push myself in terms of range. So, I very well may be pushing myself to the absolute limits of my voice in a way that the average person might not do. I would imagine this is similar for Dana with her background. Secondly, I'll be the first to admit that I just don't have a baritone or bass voice. When I sang as a male at the amateur level I was always classified as a tenor. I'm getting a glottoplasty not to gain notes or a pitch level that was unattainable, but to make a certain register more attainable and more automatic. Some might find that confusing but for me personally it makes sense. If you've heard my voice samples here, you know that I don't have a deep voice but at the same time, maintaining a high and feminine pitch puts a strain on my vocal cords that I want desperately to eliminate. Basically I'm hoping that my trained voice will become my default voice with no extra work on my part. Based on the examples I've heard here, I think that's a realistic expectation but only time will tell and I'm willing to take the plunge.
Quote from: Dena on October 06, 2015, 02:06:04 AM
I may obscured what I meant a bit. My thought was if I don't really have the range for a good singing voice, maybe I should have settled for a bit better speaking voice by getting the triple.
Ok, that makes sense. Yes - even Dr Kim can offer a slightly different surgery it seems, depending on the way you want to use the voice - singing or speaking. I think most people will prefer to have a good effortless speaking voice rather than to still struggle with that post op just to have some more singing abilities, unless they are really enthusiastic or professional singers.
Quote from: kwala on October 06, 2015, 02:51:02 AM
Secondly, I'll be the first to admit that I just don't have a baritone or bass voice. When I sang as a male at the amateur level I was always classified as a tenor. I'm getting a glottoplasty not to gain notes or a pitch level that was unattainable, but to make a certain register more attainable and more automatic. Some might find that confusing but for me personally it makes sense. If you've heard my voice samples here, you know that I don't have a deep voice but at the same time, maintaining a high and feminine pitch puts a strain on my vocal cords that I want desperately to eliminate. Basically I'm hoping that my trained voice will become my default voice with no extra work on my part.
Well, even if you are not a baritone or bass - some others have also not been that - the description of what you want fits that or others including mine. I was able to reach very high pitches before the surgery, even though of course it was head voice then. So that was not something I expected to change. But just like you, my expectation was that I could use my elevated trained voice without much effort - basically with similar effort I could use my relaxed trained voice before surgery - and that seems to have worked out, even though I hoped I would also gain a little more pitch to end up in the upper part of my trained elevated voice. But yes - it has the potential to take off the strain that it takes to use that elevated range (in my case pre op the original voice was a bass - 110 Hz, relaxed trained was 130 Hz, elevated trained was 160-200 Hz - post op relaxed is about 170-180 Hz, slightly elevated gives me 200 Hz). But one has to unlearn some of the stuff that one learned before and that puts the strain on the voice. I struggle with that because I used those bad ways of speaking for 15 years... but if you are good with your voice, I am sure it is easy for you.
The only singing I've done apart from a brief stint in choir in elementary school has been in church. So my singing voice really isn't all that good.
My pitch isn't all that high from the surgery but it sounds good enough I guess. I'm just happy to not have it out me. :)
However I may end up taking some singing lessons because with my new voice I want to sing. I have no dysphoria about my voice now so singing is pleasurable.
Yes, same with me - since I dont fear my voice every time I use it, I actually feel that I should try and sing a bit. I tried somewhat at campfires in summer, but while the voice is ok, I cannot hit the right notes, so I think I want to learn that a bit.
Quote from: kwala on October 06, 2015, 02:51:02 AM
I would imagine this is similar for Dana with her background. Secondly, I'll be the first to admit that I just don't have a baritone or bass voice. When I sang as a male at the amateur level I was always classified as a tenor. I'm getting a glottoplasty not to gain notes or a pitch level that was unattainable, but to make a certain register more attainable and more automatic. Some might find that confusing but for me personally it makes sense. If you've heard my voice samples here, you know that I don't have a deep voice but at the same time, maintaining a high and feminine pitch puts a strain on my vocal cords that I want desperately to eliminate. Basically I'm hoping that my trained voice will become my default voice with no extra work on my part. Based on the examples I've heard here, I think that's a realistic expectation but only time will tell and I'm willing to take the plunge.
Ding ding ding yup :-). I think if you have singing or musical training, you're always pushing to the limits of your range. Now to be clear that doesn't mean straining to the limits of your range, but it does mean experimentation to figure out where your limits are, and figuring out the different approaches and resonances that help you attain the sound you want. Also, same, I wasn't that low to begin with and always sang tenor. So putting me in an alto range isn't a HUGE leap.
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Almost forgot, here is Jamie and her documentary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcWyFWBmb1I&feature=youtu.be
Quote from: iKate on October 06, 2015, 03:03:27 PM
Almost forgot, here is Jamie and her documentary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcWyFWBmb1I&feature=youtu.be
Very informative and I love her quirky personality. Thanks for posting.
Quote from: kwala on October 06, 2015, 03:52:36 PM
Very informative and I love her quirky personality. Thanks for posting.
I really love what she did at the end.
It's too bad she doesn't post here anymore, but I can understand wanting to just move on with your life (as I will do someday).
This brings back memories - Dr Kim is cute ;)
I believe J-Mi stopped posting because a few people were not so happy about the Yeson procedure or were scared of it not being as good as J-Mi showed it to be. Not sure. Her results are fantastic and definitely in the top 10% or so, she definitely surpassed Dr Kims estimate of a 75 Hz increase in pitch and almost doubled that!
She definitely worked at it. I must admit I've been slacking in the exercise department but I do what I can. However I am very pleased with my results.
Dr Kim seems rather modest and shy but he probably knows the immense difference he has made in many people's lives. I wish them every success they wish for.
Hi all, this is an update to my surgery that I had done July of last year. For anyone considering the surgery look into Dr. Spiegel in Boston Mass. as he does the same procedure as is done in South Korea. I had it done at Yeson and would have to say that I am less than thrilled with the results. Has my voice changed? A little but not much! Most people who knew me before have told me that I sound the same as before the operation. :-(
Quote from: northcountrymassage on October 10, 2015, 07:57:51 PM
Hi all, this is an update to my surgery that I had done July of last year. For anyone considering the surgery look into Dr. Spiegel in Boston Mass. as he does the same procedure as is done in South Korea. I had it done at Yeson and would have to say that I am less than thrilled with the results. Has my voice changed? A little but not much! Most people who knew me before have told me that I sound the same as before the operation. :-(
Sorry to hear about the disappointment! Did you have a good trained voice before though? That seems to be the constant with girls who don't get much change.
I am told the same thing, but to me the voice now feels more natural and some qualities of it have changed. Before I was pushing up the pitch, now I just can relax into it. Timbre has changed, laughs and such have changed - so I am good with it, even though admittedly I am not having those huge big changes that some have experienced, but I did not really expect that.
Careful about the whole thing regarding "There is a surgeon XY that does the same procedure as Yeson". The basic procedure is over 20 years old and was "invented" by a guy called Wendler (I believe from Germany). So its called a Wendler glottoplasty. Since then a lot of surgeons learned that method and used it. It was considered a procedure that has considerable risks of loosing the voice, of getting hoarseness and raspiness permanently, of ending up with a too high or forced sounding voice.
Only recently it seems that further development in the DETAILS of the procedure and improved skill and precision by the surgeons have made this method viable. So I would always check thoroughly what the details are and most of all what results have been created so far by that surgeon. I did not go to Korea for the surgery because I thought he is the only one doing this. I was aware of at least 3 people doing this in Germany at that time, but I decided against those becaus eI heard bad voice samples, bad reports, had a consultation with one one them who said it has only a 30% chance of improvement of the voice (30% no change, 30% getting worse). At least he was honest about not being able to give good results even though the basic method (suturing vocal folds) is the same, his precision and the details of the technique are different from Dr Kim. So I chose to spend 8000 EU instead of getting it done on NHS for free.
I'm also told that I sound the same as before surgery. The difference is that I don't need to strain my vocal cords in order to do it. Lol And it doesn't wear out anymore. Also, like, Anjaq's experience, my laughs and coughs, etc, are higher pitched and more natural.
Something that I found interesting that my speech therapist told me was that after a change to the larynx like that, your brain will still attempt to configure the musculature to make your voice sound more like what your brain is expecting. Maybe something like that is in play in your case? After I started holding my hyoid down against my larynx, my brain wasn't very happy with the sound of my voice for a few days. Lol I had to practice to myself to get my brain to realize that yes, that is indeed my voice and it's okay for it to sound like that. Lol
I'm sorry you haven't noticed immediate gains. I hope your higher pitched voice is still in there, just waiting to be discovered. :)
I have a friend who will be getting vocal surgery done with Spiegel, fairly soon, I believe. I'll have to post on her behalf when I hear her results.
In my case since I had zero training other than trying to get my voice up by myself, when I started to speak post op, it took a few tries because I felt my brain trying to use my pre op range and probably wondered, "wtf just happened?" and then proceeded to seek upwards to the most comfortable position. With a trained voice you're not going to have that since the voice is comfortable already.
Yeah, I got horribly botched work by Spiegel for face work (I've had 2 redos since then and am still completely screwed), the last thing on earth I would ever do is let him touch my vocal chords. He has an ongoing reputation for being "too conservative" and I can say that will be the least of your problems if go with him. Sure he's doing the same surgery, but Dr. Kim does nothing but work on vocal chords all day every day. Spiegel is nothing but an ear nose and throat doctor trying to perform FFS and other surgeries. I need to get a full write up on my multiple experiences I've had with him and post it here. On another note, I didn't see ANY of the equipment in Spiegel's office that Dr. Kim had in his office. It's like taking your PC to the Apple store for repair, It doesn't make any sense at all. He doesn't even have any videos posted on his website showcasing his work.
Reagrding surgeons, I also like the specialist approach - not have one doctor perform all kinds of surgeries. Dr Kim only does voice surgeries - Dr Suporn mostly does GRS (although he also does some FFS), The people at Facialteam are all specialists for one part of the face only - hair transplants, nose, Jaw/Chin, ... - I like those sorts of arrangements because it allows these people to get really good at one thing - better than someone doing all sorts of things and that particular surgery only once a month. This is the case for all surgeons doing any trans related surgery in Germany and I think its a bad idea - and the reason why people who have the money rather go elsewhere than to use the "free" NHS covered opportunities here.
I totally agree on the brain trying to use the voice in the way it "expects" the voice to be. For some, the brain seems to expect a higher voice already and then it goes fast once the physiology is changed, others have gotten used to their old voice or a trained pre-op voice for a long time and so this is what comes out. It takes time and conscious effort and exercises to explore the new voice, find out what changed, find the new "relaxed voice", the "sweet spot" ... I know my voice did change with the months after surgery not because the base pitch changed any further - the effect of the surgery was instant - but the way I use my new voice was something I am still working on and which took months to really change.
In the beginning I was always trying to match my old relaxed trained voice and was speaking at the low end of my vocal range as a result. That is slowly (!) changing. For some, the surgery changed so much that they were lucky enough to not have access to their old voice range anymore, so the matching never worked and the adaptation to a new situation may be faster and more complete, I believe
I agree about specialists. I think Suporn also does BA.
I chose Dr Kim because he seemed to have developed his own methods to implement the glottoplasty technique and even made his own instruments. He is also tested and proven. I also have a high level of trust in Korean medicine given their high standards.
Agreed. It's like those all purpose fax printer scanner copiers back in the nineties. You put all those components together into one thing, you get less quality over all than were you to by those individual items. I think the analogy breaks down now in the 2010's cuz of how good those multifunction machines have gotten. Lol But I think you get the picture. Generalists, definition, must compromise their expertise in order to broaden it. Specialists, on the other hand, deepen their expertise and experience way more than a generalist ever could because the specialist has a sole focus that allows them to gather experience.
Of course, that's generalizing things a bit. Personality, age, hospital staff, what's happening in the surgeons life, etc, etc, all play into it. I think your chances of a good result increase going with a specialist who has a proven track record. I wouldn't go to Spiegel for vfs simply because I can't find any reviews AT ALL on here about his results. Makes me think he doesn't do vfs's very often at all... Or his results are so poor, nobody wants to share. Either way, any surgeon with no reviews would not make it onto my short list.
Hi all,
Please know that in no way was I trying to imply or influence anyone into believing that one doctor is better than another. I just didn't know that there were other doctors who performed the same type of operation prior to scheduling mine. I knew there were other doctors who did vfs, but I did not like the type of procedures done or the risks involved with them and that is the reason why I chose Yeson. Please by all means make an informed decision and hear results by others prior to making your choice.
No I had not had any vocal training prior and from what Dr. Kim told me that was probably a good thing due to the issues I had with my voice. My vocal cords were not even, they did not close correctly causing me to use about five times more effort than the average person to talk and I had a vocal tremor to boot.
I have since had a little training and I'm sure I would benefit from more. lol
I have recorded my voice again so that people can hear what I sounded like before and what I sound like now. I must admit that when I listened to them I do hear a difference and I wonder if why people say I sound the same is because it is still my voice, just higher? Please let me know what you all think.
Best wishes,
Amy
Before
https://soundcloud.com/user1152848/before-operation
Current
https://soundcloud.com/user1152848/15-months-post-op
Wow, Amy, resoundingly yes! Your voice is certainly higher pitched. Maybe they are looking at other cues, like prosody or reverberation? I suggest focusing on those things if you'd like to do more work on your voice.
Amy, there is a very significant difference but I think some of the resonance issues you're having are masking what is otherwise a good result. The good news is resonance can be trained out. I would gender you correctly.
I agree - there is a clear change in the recordings, but I think to get the best of it, some voice training, especially resonance but also prosody would be very beneficial.
Obe of the good things about Dr Kims way of doing this is actually that your voice stays your voice - it has the same ring to it, it will not sound artificial, it will just sound like you - just higher pitched and with less masculine timbre. So it gives a natural result but that also means you have to still work on the other issues that may be making the voice sound more masculine than you like.
Someone had asked me to do some free talking. Here it is. http://vocaroo.com/i/s1ZqDvZL8uQR
Kate, I'd ID you as a woman. :) You sound good!
Quote from: Cadence Jean on October 14, 2015, 05:49:30 PM
Kate, I'd ID you as a woman. :) You sound good!
Haha I would too, lol. Thanks!
This was someone on the FB group that asked for free talking since the rainbow passage is rehearsed it seems.
So I'm just adding this as a data point. I'm going to make another recording next month to see how my voice progresses. Or maybe some singing.
There's an fb group??
It's an unofficial support group, yes.
Heya Kate,
Soo looking forward to my VFS now. Just heard your little recording, jeez u sound amazing! You must be so happy.
Interested to know how were before...
By the way, could you post a link to the FB group? I'd definitely like to go onto it
Thanks
J
Quote from: kitten_lover on October 16, 2015, 06:18:02 PM
Heya Kate,
Soo looking forward to my VFS now. Just heard your little recording, jeez u sound amazing! You must be so happy.
Interested to know how were before...
By the way, could you post a link to the FB group? I'd definitely like to go onto it
Thanks
J
Hi Jenna.
They are in posts #40 and 41 of this thread.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,192899.msg1719312.html#msg1719312
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,192899.msg1719314.html#msg1719314
Quote from: iKate on October 14, 2015, 05:25:41 PM
Someone had asked me to do some free talking. Here it is. http://vocaroo.com/i/s1ZqDvZL8uQR
Kate:
A really excellent recording. Congratulations, I'd say your your VFS was a complete success based on just that clip. Very good result ad I am VERY happy for you.
Be safe
Elaine
Indeed, iKates surgery was one of the top results definitely :) - Its so great after such a short time already.
Regarding the facebook group - its a hidden grup - you would have to contact one of its members (for example me) and become "friends" on facebook, then that person can invite you into that group. AFAIK this is the only way to get new members in.
Thanks, Kate added me on to the group last night. Did you add me on facebook today? I had a couple of friend requests which I accepted.
No one seems to be going to Yeson the same time as I am :( If you are there between 1st November and 13th November - do get in touch please.
XoX
Quote from: iKate on July 27, 2015, 10:16:48 AM
One of my colleagues today made a comment, that with my new voice everything more or less comes together now and I don't seem "odd" as a beautiful woman with a deep voice.
This means that passing is now effortless, which was the goal.
Nobody questions my voice at all.
I did an experiment over the weekend. I went in a T shirt and jeans and guyed it up as much as possible. But I talked to people in my new voice. One person looked at me weird, another person said "that lady over there" pointing to me. One person called me sir before I talked to him, then he apologized.
I love this! I sure hope I have just as good a result as you!! I've heard people experiementing before, it sounds like a good idea, I'm a bit too afraid too...don't take rejection well or being impassable well...
I think what you said about it all coming together, is EXACTLY what I'm aiming to achieve. In fact I'm going to make a voice recording so you can hear what my voice sounds like at present. For me it would mean the world to be able to express myself truly as I am.
Nd there is my voice, excuse the washing machine in the background...
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Q0CPWr12MM
Kate, this is the first time I've heard a recording from you and I must say you sound absolutely fantastic!! Your voice passes as cis to me. Gah! Hopefully my results end up half as good as yours!
Quote from: Roni on October 17, 2015, 12:19:07 PM
Kate, this is the first time I've heard a recording from you and I must say you sound absolutely fantastic!! Your voice passes as cis to me. Gah! Hopefully my results end up half as good as yours!
I'm hoping and praying you do! I'm really grateful how it all came together. Thanks!
Quote from: kitten_lover on October 17, 2015, 11:12:44 AM
Nd there is my voice, excuse the washing machine in the background...
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Q0CPWr12MM
Sounds high end of gender ambiguous. Passable with looks I think. Phone I would hesitate to gender you although I would be leaning in the female direction.
Hopefully dr Kim will put you firmly into female territory.
Phone call after phone call, unambiguous "Yes, Ma'am" right off the bat... Zero hesitation, even with my old name. Latest one is with Amex for a name change. That is why this surgery was worth it for me.
If you can do it, I would 100% say do it!
So, I'm sick for the first time since my VFS, and even though it's been almost 4 months, I'm still so paranoid. I have the flu and I'm hacking up a lung. I know at this point I'm totally healed and can't ruin the surgical site by coughing, but oof, flu-y dry hacking is NOT fun.
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I dont think being sick will do anything at this point, but I still would try to follow the advices (lots of water, trying to cough without straining the vocal chords) and take medications (against cough). I still want to know if that Synatura Syrup is somehow available internationally. I think it helped a lot and I asked to take another couple of packages with me after I was in Seoul, they come in handy later.
Yeah it's pretty much healed now, so I wouldn't worry.
Synatura isn't available in the USA. They just worked out a licensing deal but it hasn't gone on sale yet.
I kept some for emergencies though.
Quote from: iKate on October 22, 2015, 04:33:31 AM
Yeah it's pretty much healed now, so I wouldn't worry.
Synatura isn't available in the USA. They just worked out a licensing deal but it hasn't gone on sale yet.
I kept some for emergencies though.
Me too :-). So I still have some left over and have been using it. And yeah, at this point I should be healed so the affect of all the coughing on my voice should just be the same as any other cold. Yes straining, maybe leave me a little tired and hoarse but then I'll get over it... I hope haha.
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Feel better soon Dana!
Quote from: Roni on October 22, 2015, 10:03:02 AM
Feel better soon Dana!
Thank you!
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Happy Birthday Dr Kim! :)
Oh really? Thats neat - Happy Birthday from me too. :angel:
It's on their Korean FB page, shows him cutting cake and opening presents. Of course, it was yesterday, but the date is today since they are 13 hours ahead. :)
Hello everyone. ;D
I'm not sure if this thread is still active at all, but I was wondering about something a little weird, but it really struck my curiosity. for those who have had the surgery, are you able to shriek or scream very feminine (like a child screaming)?
There are several factors involved. If you are still using your trained voice you may not be able to generate the volume. Next the shorter cords may result in less volume than you would have had before surgery. If you still need to use a trained voice, you would need to scream in the trained voice and last, those of us who have been through the process might be nervous about damaging the surgery where we to abuse our voice in that manor.
To be honest, I have not really screamed loudly since the surgery, I figured I will give it at least the 12 months of full healing time before I dare this. However, I can say that involuntary sounds definitely have changed for me. If someone surprises meand I go "eek", its feminine. When it comes to sounds like crying or laughing, a lot has changed, too. The voice change is not as dramatic so that I would sound like a child. There are limits to this surgery, you don't get a soprano voice if you had a bass before - so for me I have an alto voice, which means my screams and sounds are more like that of many adult women. That said - I think going higher in pitch while screaming is more a matter of muscle tension and thus does not depend on voice surgery. I could in some situations scream very high pitched even before the surgery, but again, this would not sound like a child screaming but like an adult woman screaming. To get a child's voice, I guess one would have to do more than vocal fold shortening, if its possible at all. After all body and throat/mouth/nasal cavity size - overall resonance chamber size - matters as well in the way the voice sounds.
Quote from: Macie on November 29, 2015, 11:16:16 PM
Hello everyone. ;D
I'm not sure if this thread is still active at all, but I was wondering about something a little weird, but it really struck my curiosity. for those who have had the surgery, are you able to shriek or scream very feminine (like a child screaming)?
No, not yet.
I guess in spring, i will have to find a rollercoaster to try it ;)
I feel I will damage something. That register comes out raspy too.
Hi everyone. Can anyone tell me the price of this procedure in Korean currency? I found the price in USD, but I think it would be more accurate to exchange the rate to my country's currency directly from Korean Won.
P.S. I must say the results I've heard on this thread have been very, very impressive!
Quote from: maquillage on December 07, 2015, 02:46:22 PM
Hi everyone. Can anyone tell me the price of this procedure in Korean currency? I found the price in USD, but I think it would be more accurate to exchange the rate to my country's currency directly from Korean Won.
P.S. I must say the results I've heard on this thread have been very, very impressive!
They only quoted me in US$. You can email english@yesonvc.net and ask for a quote in ₩.
Quote from: iKate on December 07, 2015, 02:55:45 PM
They only quoted me in US$. You can email english@yesonvc.net and ask for a quote in ₩.
Thanks iKate! Will do. :)
Btw, I was mostly referring to your voice clip when I said I was impressed! It's simply a lovely woman's voice. Thanks for sharing it and also for all the information you've posted in the earlier threads (I went really far back!). I've been curious and interested in this procedure ever since I heard of it.
The price is calculated in US$ - the price in Won is calculated by them from the price in USD with the exchange rate to Won, so it makes little sense, they do charge in USD and not in Won, so changing your currency into won and then they change it to USD is nonsense. I did that, but they basically transferred the Won I wired them to USD and then calculated how much I paid too much by that and gave it to me as a refund for the Botox treatment...
Quote from: maquillage on December 08, 2015, 05:01:03 AM
Thanks iKate! Will do. :)
Btw, I was mostly referring to your voice clip when I said I was impressed! It's simply a lovely woman's voice. Thanks for sharing it and also for all the information you've posted in the earlier threads (I went really far back!). I've been curious and interested in this procedure ever since I heard of it.
Thanks! Hope you're successful in finding your voice.
Quote from: anjaq on December 08, 2015, 05:37:46 AM
The price is calculated in US$ - the price in Won is calculated by them from the price in USD with the exchange rate to Won, so it makes little sense, they do charge in USD and not in Won, so changing your currency into won and then they change it to USD is nonsense. I did that, but they basically transferred the Won I wired them to USD and then calculated how much I paid too much by that and gave it to me as a refund for the Botox treatment...
That is true because they have a currency exchange sign at the front desk listing today's exchange rates.
Yeah I believe they just "think" in USD a lot in Korea. Of course it would be interesting to know what price they charge for this procedure fpr Koreans in Won - if they also apply the "international price" or if they have a lower price for non-foreigners. Maybe they even have some sort of NHS system there that pays part of it if needed? Who knows.
For me it's about time for a 10 month update. It seems I am getting more relaxed in my voice. I still sometimes involuntarily push my voice too much and then it gets strained - or on other times I drop into the old phonation pattern, which then is too low and sounds not that great because also at that pitch it is more broken. But I think I begin to settle into a comfortable way of speaking - they key point for me is to relax, let go, relax, unlearn bad habits and relax ;)
Anyways - voice samples:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0UuSCwa7zFz
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Op3tFiQtdI
(for some reasons my computer seems to have had some issues, so there are some weird sound artefacts in the recordings - so no, I did not get a faulty digital voice implant that creates them when I speak - lol)
Sounds great but the volume seems a bit low so it sounds a slightly breathy to me. Are you able to talk loudly in noisy settings after your surgery? That's my current problem, speaking with enough volume in a loud restaurant for example so people can actually hear me.
Quote from: anjaq on December 10, 2015, 03:42:59 AM
Yeah I believe they just "think" in USD a lot in Korea. Of course it would be interesting to know what price they charge for this procedure fpr Koreans in Won - if they also apply the "international price" or if they have a lower price for non-foreigners. Maybe they even have some sort of NHS system there that pays part of it if needed? Who knows.
For me it's about time for a 10 month update. It seems I am getting more relaxed in my voice. I still sometimes involuntarily push my voice too much and then it gets strained - or on other times I drop into the old phonation pattern, which then is too low and sounds not that great because also at that pitch it is more broken. But I think I begin to settle into a comfortable way of speaking - they key point for me is to relax, let go, relax, unlearn bad habits and relax ;)
Anyways - voice samples:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0UuSCwa7zFz
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Op3tFiQtdI
(for some reasons my computer seems to have had some issues, so there are some weird sound artefacts in the recordings - so no, I did not get a faulty digital voice implant that creates them when I speak - lol)
To be honest, these are some of the issues i have not yet really solved for me. Breathiness/Hoarseness that I cannot really get rid of completely - and loudness. Apparently others did not always have this or it went away before the 9 month mark, but it seems for some it was not yet over with aven after the 12 month mark.
I was at a event today and had some issues speaking up enough to be understood by the others at the table. People also keep telling me I sound hoarse and as if I have a cold. So those issues have been with me since the surgery and I am not really sure what I am possibly doing wrong to not get rid of them. Dr Kim told me to take more Clonazepam to fight the hoarseness, but I do not have it now and I am not sure it helps anything in that respect - I was perceived to be hoarse when I had the pills as well...
I was told by others that it can take more than the 12 months to get volume back - some improvment was still noticed after 2 years... so maybe I will get some of that back just by healing more... same with the hoarseness, hopefully...?
But maybe it is more an issue of me not using my voice properly... I know that I still have the tendency to push the pitch up a little and that causes some problems at times... I probably am doing other things in a bad way, too. But sadly there are no really good instructions on how to find your post OP voice
The voice samples sound good. Feminine pitch and inflection. The breathiness softens the voice but it's not overdoing it so I think if you are comfortable with it, you have a winner.
I think you sound good Anja. I can understand the frustration with not sounding as good as you'd like to (sometimes I'm a bit disappointed in my voice) but I would never mistake you for a guy.
Thanks :) - No, I do not sound like a guy, this is really in the past for sure. My issues are the remaining hoarseness and low volume (which was what jollyjoy also mentioned), that I still need to work on or maybe can hope for some more healing process...
So clearly the surgery helped me a ton. My voice is definitely female now and I seem to really have to force it in order to sound male in any ways - not sure how well this works at all. The hoarseness and lower volume are sort of side effects that are to be expected, I guess - for some they resolved within a couple of weeks, for others they stayed much longer... I guess regarding the volume, a lot is training - I rarely use the voice at a high volume, so I am not training this a lot. I guess I really should take singing lessons and thereby improve my volume ;)
Of course both are a bit connected - if the voice is hoarse or breathy a lot of air is lost and the volume is lost as well.
Quote from: anjaq on December 08, 2015, 05:37:46 AM
The price is calculated in US$ - the price in Won is calculated by them from the price in USD with the exchange rate to Won, so it makes little sense, they do charge in USD and not in Won, so changing your currency into won and then they change it to USD is nonsense. I did that, but they basically transferred the Won I wired them to USD and then calculated how much I paid too much by that and gave it to me as a refund for the Botox treatment...
I did the wire in US$ because it's easier with the credit union (fee is less than a commercial bank too). They did refund me $15 though which also went to botox. I guess that had to do with fluctuating exchange rate.
Anjaq, I hope with time, you will see the improvements that you want. Your voice does sound female so that's the most important thing. I'm hoping in a couple of months, my voice will sound less hoarse. I know I need to be patient about this, so even if it takes longer, I'm fine with it. So far I spoke with 2 friends, one said the voice sounds a bit strained as if I have talked for an extended period of time. The other friend said the voice sounded very good and feminine and didn't even mention anything about the hoarseness. I'll be meeting some more friends next week and I'm eager to hear what they think.
Quote from: anjaq on December 11, 2015, 04:19:23 AM
Thanks :) - No, I do not sound like a guy, this is really in the past for sure. My issues are the remaining hoarseness and low volume (which was what jollyjoy also mentioned), that I still need to work on or maybe can hope for some more healing process...
So clearly the surgery helped me a ton. My voice is definitely female now and I seem to really have to force it in order to sound male in any ways - not sure how well this works at all. The hoarseness and lower volume are sort of side effects that are to be expected, I guess - for some they resolved within a couple of weeks, for others they stayed much longer... I guess regarding the volume, a lot is training - I rarely use the voice at a high volume, so I am not training this a lot. I guess I really should take singing lessons and thereby improve my volume ;)
Of course both are a bit connected - if the voice is hoarse or breathy a lot of air is lost and the volume is lost as well.
Quote from: jollyjoy on December 11, 2015, 03:16:24 PM
Anjaq, I hope with time, you will see the improvements that you want. Your voice does sound female so that's the most important thing. I'm hoping in a couple of months, my voice will sound less hoarse. I know I need to be patient about this, so even if it takes longer, I'm fine with it.
Yes, the most important thing of it worked :) Thats really so great. I especially love the uncontrolled voice parts - like suddenly saying "hello" to someone, or moaning or squeaking - lol - they are changed totally. For the hoarseness and volume I guess you are right - one needs to be patient...
Quote from: anjaq on December 11, 2015, 04:05:54 PM
Yes, the most important thing of it worked :) Thats really so great. I especially love the uncontrolled voice parts - like suddenly saying "hello" to someone, or moaning or squeaking - lol - they are changed totally. For the hoarseness and volume I guess you are right - one needs to be patient...
How long ago did you have your done?
I have mine 5 weeks ago :)
Hey guys! So, yesterday my speech pathologist recorded me doing the Rainbow Passage. Then she opened up the session of the very first time I recorded the Rainbow Passage at my first appointment with her :-). I was floored by the difference. I guess when things happen incrementally, you don't really notice them. So I wanted to post a little vocaroo timeline!
This was my pre-op Rainbow Passage that I sent to Yeson before going:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1S2McOd5lA2
This was my very first post the day I could start speaking again which was the opening page of my favorite book "The Pillars of the Earth":
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1mTgXYD1QQM
Then this was my first Rainbow passage recording that I did only a week later:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1RFvkGn4VV8
And then this was today!:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1huBLC6J2ls
And a bonus one, this is me just singing a few lines from Adele's "Sweetest Devotion." It's just raw audio with a little bit of reverb. I did this today too:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1pPmR8C3je0
These days my Fundamental Frequency is sitting pretty consistently around 245 hz, which is a 103 hz increase from my preop voice. I still notice changes everyday. Gaining more clarity and resonance, but the fundamental frequency has seemed preeeettttty settled for a while.
That said, I had been sitting more around 237ish, and in the last few weeks my mom told me my voice started sounding higher. And it had raised to 245ish which seems to be where it sits consistently now. That said, I'm now just over 5 months post-op, so I'm still not even half way to "final result." But needless to say, I'm already thrilled :-).
I have my SRS with Dr. Suporn in just over 9 weeks, and since my layover was going to be in Seoul anyway, I'm staying in Seoul for 5 days before heading to Bangkok and then Chonburi and doing a postop checkup with Dr. Kim.
Anyway, that's all for now!
Thanks for the update, Dana. Sounding soooo good! And up to D5 on that Adele sample? Amazed! You must be so thrilled. I hope I sound half that good when this is all said and done.
Quote from: kwala on December 18, 2015, 05:55:44 PM
Thanks for the update, Dana. Sounding soooo good! And up to D5 on that Adele sample? Amazed! You must be so thrilled. I hope I sound half that good when this is all said and done.
Thanks! And yup :-). And I can sustain that D with vibrato on it too!
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How much does Dr Kim charge for the post op checkups? I may be headed to Japan early next year and do a stop over in Seoul.
Quote from: iKate on December 18, 2015, 06:59:00 PM
How much does Dr Kim charge for the post op checkups? I may be headed to Japan early next year and do a stop over in Seoul.
Free within one year of the surgery ;-). It's in the initial info email that Jessie sends.
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Quote from: Dana88 on December 18, 2015, 07:26:49 PM
Free within one year of the surgery ;-). It's in the initial info email that Jessie sends.
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Oh right lol.
My brother is changing station to Japan and I might go visit him before the 1 year is up. I get good deals to NRT via ICN.
Quote from: iKate on December 18, 2015, 07:43:47 PM
Oh right lol.
My brother is changing station to Japan and I might go visit him before the 1 year is up. I get good deals to NRT via ICN.
Nice. We just spent ridiculous money for the flights to Seoul/Thailand. Especially cause I'm flying Korean Air and I'm in Prestige cause mama's gonna need to be able to get COMFY during nearly 24 hours of travel when I'm only three and a half weeks postop from my SRS haha. We had AMEX points, a lot of them, which proved completely and utterly useless. We coulda transferred them to Aeroplan and used them for my seat on Asiana and Thai Airways, but for my mom to get on the same flights it wasn't gonna be much cheaper than just sucking it up and buying full price on Korean... And we preferred Korean to Asiana and Thai Airways.
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You'll enjoy prestige. Private bar and all. Only way I will fly anyway. :)
The Amex points are useless now for me which is why I'm going to drop my platinum card at renewal. They also dropped the partner lounges for some airlines. I have a delta sky miles card and platinum medallion anyway which gives me better bang for my buck, even with sky pesos. :) I'm undecided who to go to for SRS given the options Zil talked to me about but I may choose thailand.
Good luck!
Quick question Dana, what has your head voice been like? As of now I don't really have access to it other than involuntary squeaks when my chest voice is giving out at the end of a phrase.
I basically speak in a mix of head and chest voice. I feel little to no vibration in my chest when speaking. Being 25 weeks post op I am slowly accessing higher ranges but I must admit it sometimes gets frustrating because there's a sharp cutoff. But with exercise my range keeps increasing just slowly
Quote from: iKate on December 18, 2015, 08:08:11 PM
You'll enjoy prestige. Private bar and all. Only way I will fly anyway. :)
The Amex points are useless now for me which is why I'm going to drop my platinum card at renewal. They also dropped the partner lounges for some airlines. I have a delta sky miles card and platinum medallion anyway which gives me better bang for my buck, even with sky pesos. :) I'm undecided who to go to for SRS given the options Zil talked to me about but I may choose thailand.
Good luck!
Yeah, I had a TON of Delta skymiles but they didn't have lie flat seats in business on the flights to Korea and Thailand (which is the reason I wanted business/prestige). Then you can book Korean Air since they're also in SkyTeam with Delta skymiles BUT the availability was so limited I woulda had multiple ridiculous layovers and then buying an extra ticket for my mom woulda been just as expensive as just buying two tix on Korean direct to Seoul and then to Bangkok outright from Korean Air.
And yeah, by the time Zil talked to me about all the stuff with what Beth Israel is trying to do, I was within the window of I could no longer cancel my SRS with Suporn without losing my deposit. Plus, I still prob woulda gone to Suporn anyway haha.
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Quote from: Dana88 on December 19, 2015, 12:15:50 AM
Yeah, I had a TON of Delta skymiles but they didn't have lie flat seats in business on the flights to Korea and Thailand (which is the reason I wanted business/prestige). Then you can book Korean Air since they're also in SkyTeam with Delta skymiles BUT the availability was so limited I woulda had multiple ridiculous layovers and then buying an extra ticket for my mom woulda been just as expensive as just buying two tix on Korean direct to Seoul and then to Bangkok outright from Korean Air.
And yeah, by the time Zil talked to me about all the stuff with what Beth Israel is trying to do, I was within the window of I could no longer cancel my SRS with Suporn without losing my deposit. Plus, I still prob woulda gone to Suporn anyway haha.
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Yeah delta has cut down a lot of partner redemption and earning and KE was cut down to a lower tier than say air France. Nevertheless the old award chart is still valuable and you can find some seats on sale and with decent points availability. Also higher medallion status like platinum or diamond can give you an advantage.
Also now you can book business/prestige as an award ticket on an international flight where previously you were not able to. But as you said many of them come with ridiculous layovers.
I check out the points guy and flyer talk. They have a lot of tips on scoring some good award flights. My cousin is also works in the biz and gets me some good friends and family discounts.
I might end up flying to Japan and then ferrying to Korea and taking the train up to Seoul. I've been meaning to check out Ulsan/busan and the southern cities outside of Seoul.
Quote from: Dana88 on December 18, 2015, 05:26:37 PM
These days my Fundamental Frequency is sitting pretty consistently around 245 hz, which is a 103 hz increase from my preop voice. I still notice changes everyday. Gaining more clarity and resonance, but the fundamental frequency has seemed preeeettttty settled for a while.
I personally have come to believe - looking at what has been reported here from many patients - that the pitch actually changes very fast and soon after that settles. I have hardly heard someone having significant pitch changes after the first couple of weeks - some changes do occur, mainly because one gets used to be comfortable at a different pitch and because one learns how to not force the voice down out of habit - or use different speech patterns and resonance, but the fundamental frequency seems to not change that much after the initial healing phase.
At least for me, the pitch seems to be the same after 8 weeks and now after 10 months, I just learned how to use my voice a bit differently. Of course - who knows, maybe something weird is going to happen and there will still be some changes in the 2 coming months, but essentially I would say that at least for me, the big change was with surgery and after that there were some slight pitch changes and then the rest was mostly changing habits and healing the hoarseness and improving resonance...
Quote from: anjaq on December 19, 2015, 05:51:51 PM
I personally have come to believe - looking at what has been reported here from many patients - that the pitch actually changes very fast and soon after that settles. I have hardly heard someone having significant pitch changes after the first couple of weeks - some changes do occur, mainly because one gets used to be comfortable at a different pitch and because one learns how to not force the voice down out of habit - or use different speech patterns and resonance, but the fundamental frequency seems to not change that much after the initial healing phase.
At least for me, the pitch seems to be the same after 8 weeks and now after 10 months, I just learned how to use my voice a bit differently. Of course - who knows, maybe something weird is going to happen and there will still be some changes in the 2 coming months, but essentially I would say that at least for me, the big change was with surgery and after that there were some slight pitch changes and then the rest was mostly changing habits and healing the hoarseness and improving resonance...
I think that is correct (and this is why I don't play the Hz game) given that I'm not really much above 200Hz. But my voice is always gendered female and has feminine timbre. This seems to be the biggest benefit of the surgery - that the voice is now concentrated in higher ranges and doesn't have much energy at lower ranges. It has a feminine timbre, a feminine color if you may.
I did measure a relaxed voice reading and the average pitch is 210Hz. However, it goes anywhere from 180 to 260Hz (taking into account any artifacts that would give a false high reading).
I am now 25 weeks post op.
I did this recording from the car, and somehow my phone recorded via the bluetooth system as if it were a phone call. Nevertheless, it's good to hear how your voice would sound over the phone, as I wonder how people would hear me.
So this is me at 25 weeks, as I'd sound over the phone:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0FYeyFKwby6
And this is a (short) regular recording with full audio range:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1lbwCTKPZn3
Hz isn't very high, Praat says about 205-210Hz. But it has feminine prosody and lacks the male resonance. Would anyone gender this voice male? They'd have to be deaf to do so. Also, it's not super high but I think it matches my build and appearance. I am not petitie but I'm not tall. I sound similar to my mom and cousins.
Quote from: iKate on December 19, 2015, 08:17:34 PM
I am now 25 weeks post op.
I did this recording from the car, and somehow my phone recorded via the bluetooth system as if it were a phone call. Nevertheless, it's good to hear how your voice would sound over the phone, as I wonder how people would hear me.
So this is me at 25 weeks, as I'd sound over the phone:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0FYeyFKwby6
And this is a (short) regular recording with full audio range:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1lbwCTKPZn3
Hz isn't very high, Praat says about 205-210Hz. But it has feminine prosody and lacks the male resonance. Would anyone gender this voice male? They'd have to be deaf to do so. Also, it's not super high but I think it matches my build and appearance. I am not petitie but I'm not tall. I sound similar to my mom and cousins.
You sound great. You should be very happy with where you are!
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Quote from: Jessirules on December 20, 2015, 08:07:48 AM
You sound great. You should be very happy with where you are!
Thanks. I am!
Quote from: Jessirules on December 20, 2015, 08:07:48 AM
You sound great. You should be very happy with where you are!
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Wow, amazing Jessie -
I'm 7 weeks post op - still very scratchy....
This is me honestly saying, and I'm quite critical, you couldn't sound male at all. Your probably the low end of the female range though, as your pitch confirms.
I'll post one here soon of myself saying the rainbow passage. I don't think I have as high a pitch - probably 175 I would estimate. But there's a definite female 'colour' as some call it, to my voice.
Just out of interest, what was your pitch in comparison to how it is now, when you were only 7 weeks post-op?
Quote from: kitten_lover on December 20, 2015, 11:37:34 AM
Wow, amazing Jessie -
I'm 7 weeks post op - still very scratchy....
This is me honestly saying, and I'm quite critical, you couldn't sound male at all. Your probably the low end of the female range though, as your pitch confirms.
I'll post one here soon of myself saying the rainbow passage. I don't think I have as high a pitch - probably 175 I would estimate. But there's a definite female 'colour' as some call it, to my voice.
Just out of interest, what was your pitch in comparison to how it is now, when you were only 7 weeks post-op?
Umm I think you mean me?
CHeck at the beginning of this thread. I think I was closer to 200Hz but maybe a little below.
Oh this morning the postman delivered the wrong package to my house, I had to shout at him (he was on the street about 150ft away). The shout came out almost as loud as I was pre op but feminine pitch and color.
So about 25 weeks post op I can say that I gained most of my power back, which I'm very happy about.
Quote from: kitten_lover on December 20, 2015, 11:37:34 AM
This is me honestly saying, and I'm quite critical, you couldn't sound male at all. Your probably the low end of the female range though, as your pitch confirms.
I think one can still somehow sound "male" in some way - either because resonance is not right , then even a high pitched voice can sound male - or because pitch is lowered for some reason - old habits or such...
Out of fun I tried to do a low voice recording and I found it can actually be pretty low, right in the male range, but I really have to deliberately lower my voice to get into that range, so I don't think I would "slip" when I am not watching out for it and end up in that range, pre-op this was happening occasionally (it even dopped lower, I think).
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1SsbkbnfzaI
Ok, this was a bit tough - first talk in front of about 100 people in a room designed for 200 or 300 people. 90 minutes. I definitely noticed that my voice is a bit weaker than a year ago (pre OP) but it definitely is better in respect to pitch and resonance. I need to actually go up in pitch a bit to reach the maximum volume but then it can resonate really well and project fairly good. I also did not feel strain in the throat afterwards, which is really new.
However, I noticed I have still quite some hoarseness and vocal fry that happens involuntarily. I can control it somehow if I watch out for it, but when I concentrate on my contents, I sometimes lost it and sounded hoarse and rough. I am not sure how to get this fixed. 2 more months until the 12 month healing period is officially over...
Hoarseness can be caused by wrong breathing. Did you checked with you speech therapist?
I may well be that I breathe not perfectly. We did that a lot in therapy , usually it works there, but I loose some of it in daily life. Its not really become second nature yet... its a lot easier when doing singing/vocalization exercises rather than speech and language.
Quote from: iKate on December 20, 2015, 11:44:57 AM
Oh this morning the postman delivered the wrong package to my house, I had to shout at him (he was on the street about 150ft away). The shout came out almost as loud as I was pre op but feminine pitch and color.
So about 25 weeks post op I can say that I gained most of my power back, which I'm very happy about.
Big smile here for you Kate. I am so pleased for you and the VFS result you had.
Your comment about the postman immediately made me think of going somewhere a bit noisy with my wife and her tendency to walk faster when she wants to just get something done. When that happens, she is quickly out of voice range. I've had t call her on the mobile as my vocal range was most definitely reduced since round 1 of VFS. Have to text now...
Be safe.
Elaine
Quote from: Elaine S on December 22, 2015, 07:26:34 AM
Big smile here for you Kate. I am so pleased for you and the VFS result you had.
Your comment about the postman immediately made me think of going somewhere a bit noisy with my wife and her tendency to walk faster when she wants to just get something done. When that happens, she is quickly out of voice range. I've had t call her on the mobile as my vocal range was most definitely reduced since round 1 of VFS. Have to text now...
Be safe.
Elaine
I find that feminine timbre is not as powerful as a booming masculine voice. People ask me to repeat myself a little more often now.
I definitely think a female timbre and shorter ("female length") vocal chords have less power somehow. What definitely works better is to increase pitch - If I need to speak up , my pitch automatically goes up - a lot - because this is where my voice can have more power and loudness.
My presentation yesterday sadly had some aftermath after all. Or maybe it was something else, because I had another hour of teaching later and then 3 hours on a christmas market with a friend, talking rather loudly. In the evening my throat hurt and my voice was weak and broken :( - so obviously I still need to train my voice to get back its strength and endurance. Or maybe it was really because I was misusing my voice - or rather not using it the right way - and this is what put a strain on it?
So I plan to pay for my surgery on my credit card and I'm wondering how it works with the cost being listed in USD. Does Yeson just charge me in USD and my bank does a direct conversion to my currency of GBP? Or do Yeson convert the USD to KRW and then my bank converts from KRW to GBP?
Also how much cash did everyone take out there? I'm going with my girlfriend so there will be two of us in Seoul from the 6th to the 16th.
They simply charge in USD and your bank will convert that in your currency.
Make sure to ask your credit card company if this will work out - mine could not guarantee me that the transaction will not be blocked because it is a large sum in a foreign country. Even though I basically tried to "warn" them of it, they could not help me. If the card is blocked, then you can call them, but in my case of course that had 2 problems - I would possibly be unable to speak if something goes bad there and they cancel the payment - and there is a huge time difference between Europe and Korea, so it would not be easy to call them in regular hours. I guess thats just because I have a free-of-charge credit card though, other cards may be more convenient there, but make sure of it.
What I did then was to transfer the money 3 weeks in advance.
I also got myself about 1000 € in KRW from my bank, which was totally stupid because I did not really need that much money, even though we were two people and I paid half of the hotel bill with it. So i spent a lot on souveniers and good food in the end ;) - meaning if you take 1000€, it will be good for 50% of Phil house costs plus some nice meals and good sightseeing. If you go to the DMZ tour and have some more fancy dinners with tabletop BBQ, you may well need that sort of money. BUT I would strongly encourage not to change it in advance. Bring European currency to Korea and change it there - or even better make sure your cards are working there and get money from an ATM in korea, the transfer fees are much cheaper! You will need an "international ATM" though. But i bet at the airport and big train station there are enough. We found them in many places, but not all of them took our european Maestro Card, most will take Visa or Mastercard though.
Quote from: Charlotte_W on December 28, 2015, 02:31:43 PM
So I plan to pay for my surgery on my credit card and I'm wondering how it works with the cost being listed in USD. Does Yeson just charge me in USD and my bank does a direct conversion to my currency of GBP? Or do Yeson convert the USD to KRW and then my bank converts from KRW to GBP?
Also how much cash did everyone take out there? I'm going with my girlfriend so there will be two of us in Seoul from the 6th to the 16th.
I did a wire transfer despite having a good charge card with no limit. Why? It's cheap insurance. The credit union charged $25 and yeson charged about $40 due to commission fee from their bank. I know I could have called Amex support and resolved it easily but I did not want to take the chance.
I used the ATM and withdrew at most a couple hundred above the $600 or so for Phil house. Most of the time I used my Amex and discover credit cards which are widely accepted and waive the foreign transaction fee.
Quote from: iKate on December 29, 2015, 08:08:30 AM
I did a wire transfer despite having a good charge card with no limit. Why? It's cheap insurance. The credit union charged $25 and yeson charged about $40 due to commission fee from their bank. I know I could have called Amex support and resolved it easily but I did not want to take the chance.
Thanks for that. I'll email them today about transferring the money beforehand and see what they say. It'll be one less thing to worry about :)
Quote from: Charlotte_W on December 29, 2015, 09:37:34 AM
Thanks for that. I'll email them today about transferring the money beforehand and see what they say. It'll be one less thing to worry about :)
How is it going? I'm currently looking at setting a date and am just sorting out the last details. Will also be having to pay from my GBP account... I don't think any of my accounts will give a great rate so will have to use xe.com most likely...
How much do you plan on budgeting in total?
I have a question about flights... Currently booking my date at Yeson, but as there is quite a bit of availability for the week I'm looking at I'm also trying to get a cheaper ticket. My flight arrives in Incheon the next day at 0730 - is it really feasible or smart to get your consultation later the same day? Similarly when you leave, can you do checkup, etc., the same day of your departing flight? I could try and stay longer as a sort of holiday but I'd rather come back and do a local holiday with my partner as I'm actually travelling solo.
Depending on your travel distance, I would usually not recommend to rush things. I arrived 2 days before the examination and it was needed. I had a 20 hour travel time, was totally tired and basically just wanted to get food and a bed when I came there. There also is jetlag. The next day I slept long and did some organizing first - find out things about the hotel, find restaurants nearby, check the subway system, sleep away the stress of travel. Then the next day I had the examination. One should not drink or eat some hours before the examination. If you have a short travel distance and/or are taking a first class flight where you can rest well, it may be possible to rush things, but if you take a cheap flight and have regular travel distances of 15 hours or more, I would definitely advise against it. Also, the surgery is the day after, having a surgery with general anaesthesia while still dealing with lack of sleep, exhaustion from travelling and jetlag is IMO not the greatest idea when it comes to proper healing of the body.
The checkup is a different story - I think it is no issue at all to fly home a few hours after the checkup and Botox. Just make sure you plan this properly as the checkup can last a few hours, as it includes the introduction to the voice exercises, the Botox injection and waiting times in between all of these procedures.
Thanks, Anja
Well, I'll be taking a non-stop flight and not flying economy so that will make the trip slightly more tolerable at least (just under 11 hours). It would arrive in Incheon early in the morning but unfortunately also departs early in the morning... That means it's technically feasible for a consult in the afternoon of the arrival day, but I'd definitely have to leave the day after the checkup. I think I'd rather try for 10 days there instead of 11 if possible...
I would try to get a flight the day before. On the day it's risky, you're tired etc.
11 hours are a long ride still. I would try to take that day of rest before the examination day. After all, you want to be in a good shape there, so they make a proper judgement on everything. They will also draw blood, measure heart activity, your voice will be checked if it is stable (I am sure being very tired would make your voice worse and more unstable than normal) and the surgery is planned based on all of that.
Also remember - the examination is not a one-hour thing. I spent the whole afternoon in the clinic for this - and was not allowed to eat or drink the whole morning. the examination seems to be based on you sleeping before ;) . If you really need to push it for some reason, write Yeson an email and ask them, but I think it would not be worth saving one stupid day.
General advice:
Honestly, I saw a few people going into surgeries - VFS with Dr Kim or elsewhere, GRS,.. - while being in a rush, trying to push it - save time, get out of clinic and back into work as early as somehow possible or earlier, speaking rather sooner than later - and it almost always has some implications. Surgeries are serious business and one should not be under too much pressure or on a tight schedule when doing them. Things need time if they are to be good. The same thing goes with the post OP time - one needs to be ready to not speak for some weeks. And it happened before that even after 4 weeks something was not quite ok and an examination was done and Dr Kim ordered another 4 weeks of total voice rest - what then? Doing these sort of surgeries when being in a situation that does not allow for any small deviations from the plan is a risk...
Quote from: Denjin on January 06, 2016, 04:06:19 PM
Thanks, Anja
Well, I'll be taking a non-stop flight and not flying economy so that will make the trip slightly more tolerable at least (just under 11 hours). It would arrive in Incheon early in the morning but unfortunately also departs early in the morning... That means it's technically feasible for a consult in the afternoon of the arrival day, but I'd definitely have to leave the day after the checkup. I think I'd rather try for 10 days there instead of 11 if possible...
Because of the frequent yellow dust storms from China, which make smog by combining with water vapor near Incheon, your flight can be delayed at any time. To make sure, I think you have better arrive one day earlier.
Also, in winter, the air quality in Seoul areas is worst. Prepare for protecting your throat. Some special masks for protecting against micro-dust can be purchased at any nearby drugstore.
You may check the micro-dust forecast at the following Japanese site: http://www.tenki.jp/particulate_matter/?p=3
Click the play button. Their forecast is reliable.
barbie~~
Thanks for all the kind replies. :)
I'm just waiting for a confirmation on the dates now and I'll book my tickets. In the end I didn't play it tooooo close. Flight on a saturday, arrive sunday, exam monday, and op Tuesday. I'll also depart the day after my last checkup.
Planning on being there the last week in March / early April.
Quote from: Denjin on January 04, 2016, 04:21:31 PM
How is it going? I'm currently looking at setting a date and am just sorting out the last details. Will also be having to pay from my GBP account... I don't think any of my accounts will give a great rate so will have to use xe.com most likely...
How much do you plan on budgeting in total?
I wasn't allowed to do the bank transfer due to it being too close to the surgery date and a New Year bank holiday also being in there. If I had requested it earlier I would have been able to. I paid on my credit card and the transaction was blocked the first few times and just before I was about to ring the credit card phone number to sort it out, my bank texted me and asked to confirm I was making the transaction and after that it was unblocked and the next transaction attempt went through.
So far my costs have roughly been:
- £5,200 surgery
- £1,400 for flight and hotel for 10 nights with my girlfriend
- We got out £400 of WON as spending money and we'll use the Credit Card for anything else
- I'll also need botox which is another cost just under £300
For those interested, I did make it through Chinese customs without any issues except their ridiculous queues, which lasted a good 2 hours to go through international transfer and then the security check itself. It seems everyone beeps in the scanner despite having nothing on them. I didn't beep at all at Heathrow in London.
I did have a panic in my consultation the day before though, as it seemed like they wouldn't operate due to my jaw apparently still being restricted in how far it opens after FFS back in September. That was worrying, but when I saw Dr Kim again after all the other tests he said he'd use the smaller magnifying instrument, which gives him less area to see than the bigger one which has a wider field.
I also had a vocal tremor and asymmetrical vocal cords. Hopefully the botox will help my brain get the tremor out of my voice, but he did recommend I get more professional voice coaching after 3 or 4 months to help me.
The surgery itself was fine, the sore throat immediately afterwards is annoying and I was looking at the clock just hoping it would be time for them to bring the water. I'm now just under 11 hours post-op and I can still feel the area, but it doesn't hurt as such. I did make one cock-up though. After coming back to the hotel I slept for a bit, woke up and after coming back from the bathroom my girlfriend asked me a question and in my dazed state I foolishly answered. I wasn't too loud and didn't feel any after effects from it, but I was so frustrated at myself. Fingers crossed it has no long term impact!
Now I just need to work out what I can eat over here that isn't spicy, nutty or seafood. It's going to be a fun 8 days or so :-)
That sounds great. Congratulations. Yes, the queues in China were horrible! And no chance to take a seat in between either. Maybe next time bring a camping chair, lol. I think they set the scanner to always beep, so they can just check everything manually and to intimidate people. I hated it. Good that you made it through well enough.
Will you meet the other Yeson patient who is in this forum while you are in Seoul? You could do some sightseeing together, silently communicating with whatsapp or something - lol - have fun.
Quote from: anjaq on January 08, 2016, 07:09:09 AMWill you meet the other Yeson patient who is in this forum while you are in Seoul? You could do some sightseeing together, silently communicating with whatsapp or something - lol - have fun.
I'm honestly not sure if we will meet anyone. I do know of another person out here at the moment who had FFS with the Facial Team a few weeks after me. She had the VFS done a couple of days before me. At the moment we have literally just done the trips to the clinic so far, so from tomorrow we can explore if we don't feel too tired and try to get a better feel for the city.
Speaking of whatsapp, did you get a sim card out here? If so can you remember what company you used and if it was a good deal?
Oh, I thought of her: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,202144.0.html - she had the VFS almost the same time as you, I think?
I did not get a SIM card. I used some free Wifi they have in stores and cafes and the hotel and at Yeson. But I was tempted to buy the WiFi access they have everywhere. Its probably a better deal than getting a SIM card. I think it was called Oleros or something like that. Its in all the subways and half the city and you can buy a day or a week. I believe they sell the access codes at the 7/11 shops?
I think this was something I should have done, it was a bit annoying to have no access to Google Maps and online translation or whatsapp when I was in the city. But I could also just do without it for that one week and keep my online activity to the times at the hotel.
Quote from: Charlotte_W on January 08, 2016, 07:31:51 AM
Speaking of whatsapp, did you get a sim card out here? If so can you remember what company you used and if it was a good deal?
I got one from evergreen (EG SIM card) which is a MVNO for kt/olleh.
However it's a waste of time getting a SIM now as Korea has some bureaucratic process where the SIM needs to be registered and that takes a few days.
I ordered mine online in advance and it was well worth it. I got free wifi on the subway bundled with it.
EDIT: Actually I see the regulations have changed and the registration only takes 30-60 minutes. They sell them at the airport but there are mobile phone shops all over. Either Olleh or SK telecom would be fine.
Quote from: Charlotte_W on January 08, 2016, 06:13:22 AM
For those interested, I did make it through Chinese customs without any issues except their ridiculous queues, which lasted a good 2 hours to go through international transfer and then the security check itself.
It can happen at any airport. Last year, I was at Kansai airport of Japan with my 2 kids. It took more than 3 hours to pass the immigration desk while it took just 1 hour by flight from Busan to Kansai airport. I thought the long queues were due to the typhoon, but later I heard that it is actually a chronic problem. Japan is as bureaucratic as S. Korea, but fortunately there is virtually no long queues in Korean airports, due to the infamous impatience of Korean passengers.
At Kansai airport last year, albeit the warning of no photo:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/644/20356043693_51151af461_b.jpg)
barbie~~
Glad you go there and it seems to be going well, Charlotte. :) Hope you heal up quickly!
I wish I didn't have to go solo, but my partner will have to stay in the UK during my trip, unfortunately. It sounds pretty rough avoiding spicy and seafoods, though! ;)
It seems (after having read many pages of this thread) that most people seem to need that botox shot, eh? Too bad that can't get identified by the voice sample we have to send in... Is there something you can ask an ENT if you get scoped that would help find out?
I'm just about to book my tickets and just had a last minute question for those who've been to Yeson. How long did it take to get a decent voice quality again? I just worry since my job involves speaking to so many people day to day, both 1-1 and in groups, with presentations, etc. Last minute jitters!
When is your surgery Denjin?
Quote from: Denjin on January 11, 2016, 02:04:23 AM
I'm just about to book my tickets and just had a last minute question for those who've been to Yeson. How long did it take to get a decent voice quality again? I just worry since my job involves speaking to so many people day to day, both 1-1 and in groups, with presentations, etc. Last minute jitters!
Some heal fast, some heal slow. For me I was up and running in a month. For others they didn't get good quality until 3-4 months. Most around 2 months...
For me, I could have conversations 1:1 again after 5-6 weeks as long as it was not long talks, but just short and with breaks. at 6 weeks it was ok for me to have longer and multiple conversations throughout the day (meetings, doing tutorials). Presentations were harde I had my first long presentation after about 4 months - a 2 hour presentation with break in front of about 30 people in a room made for 50 without a microphone - it worked ok, but I definitely became weaker towards the second half and afterwards I really wanted to rest my voice.
So I think the 1:1 conversations are going to be possible rather soon as long as its not a noisy envorinment, the presentations may be more of a problem if they are too long or the room is to big without a microphone.
I did have problems with power in the 1st month. However, endurance was never a problem for me. In fact the day after I started speaking I had a 50 minute session with my gender therapist and I did most of the talking.
Thanks, Kate and Anja. :) I've read the entire thread and healing does seem to vary quite greatly - as one would expect I guess. Currently I'm working on getting in even better shape to help in healing. When I had my SRS I got myself into insane shape before surgery and I healed up very quickly. Since I'm a few years older now it's probably even more important.
I will need some sort of doctor letter to take more than two weeks off this early in the year, though. Legally you get five weeks paid holiday, but I think my employer would be a bit upset if I did that early in the year.
In week 4-8 I could speak longer, but not too loud. I could talk to people for a 45 min meeting at week 5 or 6, but when I met a friend at a restraurant and talked to her for 2 hours in an increasingly noisy environment, I totally became weaker and the next day I was very weak in the voice and did a day of total voice rest...
I had a letter from my ENT that declared me unfit for work for the whole time from the day I had the surgery up to ybout 2-3 weeks after the surgery, I then went to work as mute as I was for about 2 weeks before I could talk again, this was a bit of a weird situation - and frustrating... but overall I did not have to take a single day vacation as it was all a medical procedure that my doctors judged to be necessary for my health and so she could declare me unfit for work without giving an explanation about it on the letter to the employer.
I went back to work the Monday after I came back. I spend most of the day behind a computer so I can get away with not talking.
I've got a quick question. I'm obviously trying to do everything I can to stop coughing, and in doing so I do a lot of what I would call internal coughs where I stifle anything from coming out. So no sound comes out at all and it all feels like any cough only gets to the point of where the tickle in my throat is located and my chest kind of convulses with the internal cough. Is this okay or would this too do damage?
Charlotte,
If you really need to caugh then let it out but open your mouth mouth wide open to let the air escape. I sent you a friendly pm while here in Seoul. Sadly you didn't reply.
Rita
Quote from: Ritana on January 11, 2016, 08:50:45 PM
I sent you a friendly pm while here in Seoul. Sadly you didn't reply.
Hi Rita, I replied to you just before I sent my previous message about coughing. This is the first time I've visited this site in a few days :-)
I also found that drinking lots of water helps make the phlegm more fluid, making it easier to get rid of it though blowing air.
Acetylcystein also helps with that, I believe. I brought some with me, its OTC. It makes the phlegm softer...
Hope you're healing well, Charlotte. :)
I'm schedule up now for the very end of March. Now to do the math on paying with my MasterCard versus the wire transfer and then wait for time to pass.
Thanks Denjen! It was me. Rita, who asked the question.
Quote from: Ritana on January 13, 2016, 04:54:14 PM
Thanks Denjen! It was me. Rita, who asked the question.
Oh yes sorry about that. :) I missed some replies snuggled in amongst the others!
Well I've been back from Seoul since Saturday evening. Thankfully there were no issues in China and weirdly after queuing for 2 hours at their international transfer and security on the way there, we didn't queue at all on the way back. Not a single person was in front of us.
Anyway, my checkup with Dr Kim showed that the surgical site was healing well on Day 6, however the bad news is that I have had a horrible cold since Day 5 (what are the chances?), so to what extent this will affect my final results, I don't know?
I have tried to control and stifle as many coughs as I can, as well as sneezes, but inevitably a few coughs get through, though never at anything like full volume.
The flights back were the worst, door-to-door it took 24 hours and the 11 hour flight from Beijing to London was hellish with a sinus headache, blocked nose and bonus stomach cramps. The good news is I think I'm over the worst of the cold, so fingers crossed it has caused minimal damage, if any.
I was very lucky that I had recovered from a nasty cold just the week before surgery. That minimised my chances of contracting another one postop. A cold is the worst thing that can happen to you after surgery. That is why Dr Kim wouldn't operate on you if you have any cold symproms as the coughing and sneezing would deal a serious blow to the surgical site.
Glad tou hear you handled it well and that you are recovering.
Oh no, getting a cold after the VFS is annoying. If it is just a cold with running nose, ok, but to suppress coughing while having a cold is probably hard. I had very strong codeine anti cough medication with me, just in case... Hope it all goes well for you. I had also a cold and flu before the VFS and it just cleared up with antibiotics 2 days before, I just continued the antibiotics until the morning of surgery and then continued with the ones from Dr Kim - seamlessly ;)
The flight back was the worst ever for me too. No waiting at all in China either. Apparently if you come from another Asian country its not so bad as if you come from Europe? It took us also about 24h overall to get back and I was not able to speak, my friend who came with me had a flu or something severe infection, she barely could walk... it was pretty crazy and I was so glad to be home.
Ok, I am closing in on my 12 month post op mark. 3 weeks from now it will be one year since the surgery...
I know its still 3 weeks and all that but I think I can assume that the changes until then will not be enourmous.
So what happened to my voice with surgery was not what I expected, I would say, but its still good. What I expected was a significant increase in pitch (+75 Hz), some change in timbre and the inability to go down into a male pitch range, probably some loss at the top end as well - all of this allowing me to speak without thinking in a female pitch and staying there even if I am startled, tired or whatever. I also expected my own perception of my voice to change , so that I would not feel "fake" anymore when I speak or try to change my voice.
Now what happened was that my pitch increased a bit (+35-45 Hz), timbre changed significantly and over time with a lot of unlearning and getting settled, my average pitch stabilized into a low female range and it became less and less straining to speak, compared to pre OP. So most of the time now I do not think about my voice, have not been misgendered or asked about my voice and because of the change in timbre even if my pitch drops very low, I still don't get weird looks. It has overall improved my self confidence a ton, my self perception of the voice is mostly female and I lost that feeling of "faking something" when speaking, which allowed also my inflections and laughing and all sorts of things about my voice to just run free and I guess my "natural femaleness" rushed in to make those good as well :). When I am among other women I do not feel like I stick out because of my voice anymore, giving me a better feeling of belonging.
But some things did not play out as I expected. While in the beginning I was still expecting a slow pitch increase over the months as Dr Kim described it to me, that did not happen. I went up by 35 Hz right at the day of surgery (of course that means 4 weeks later when I was able to speak) and basically changed to possibly 40-45 Hz increase over time - but that is probably more because I changed my speech patterns and inflections. Interestingly though involuntary sounds changed more than I expected (like squeaking when being surprised or moaning or crying). And while my comfortable speaking pitch ("my sweet spot") changed up, my lower vocal range at first decreased (lowest possible pitch went up by the same 30-45 Hz) but then went back, so I now still can reach once more down to about 90-100 Hz. Luckily it is not happening involuntarily though. My upper range at first significantly decreased from over 900 Hz to 750 Hz, but recently seems to be betting a bit better and I found a new way to produce squeaking sounds ("whistle register") at well over 1000 Hz (C6,D6 even E6) for short moments. Not sounding presentable but still - I never could make a sound like that before.
So that surprised me the most. My vocal range did not really change a lot, I still have my lowest lows but my comfortable pitch changed within that pitch range.
This seems to be a bit unique though as I heard from many others that their average pitch did increase by those 75 Hz or even more and that their lower range was indeed cut off significantly. So I am probably not the best "poster case" for this surgery, just wanted to share it as well, maybe also for those who also experience having stil a low range and all that - the cahnges in perception of my voice by myself and others still has changed massively and is liberating - no matter what pitch ranges and average pitch change says ;)
Very interesting. I checked my vocal range today. I think I probably could even go a little bit higher than what I recorded here and I know on some days I can also go lower. The very high part is crazy - I think it is almost available on demand now, maybe thats because the Botox does stop muscles from interfering with making that sound?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVSSaLEo.png&hash=520d9ec5f2010140831476e8e2fcfc71e51a1978)
Very impressive, Anja! You had a quite a large range before as I recall, but the upper end seems to have expanded even further and well into the whistle register.
Yes, I had a range of 85-880 Hz pre OP. Now it seems to be 95-1300? So pre OP that was E2-A5 and now it is G2-G6 (I actually did a G6 yesterday for 2 seconds) - so there are 2 unexpected things here - one is that my lower pitch range did not change that much as I thought it would - I expected to not be able to make a sound in the clearly male range below 130 Hz; On the other had I actually have an increase in the upper range - I expected this to be more limited but was totally ok with giving up a number of notes at the top end in exchange for a good speaking voice - so getting into a whistle register now is kind of a bonus.
One thing I would actually think to be funny would be to check the reaction of german voice surgeons on giving them a G6 and then telling them that I had voice surgery - lol - the two I had consultations with basically told me my voice would be ruined afterwards more or less - limited range, no singing ability, etc... I would love to surprise them, but I am not so much interested now in actually making appointments with them "just to show them"...
Glad things seem to be working out for you, Anja! I love your updates. :) It's quite interesting what you wrote about how your range has changed in some ways since surgery.
Wiring most of my funds across next week so only about six weeks to go here...
Anjaq is a great source of information. Thank u for sharing your experience in such a detailed way hun!
Ha I finally finished this thread. Started with jennies very first post. Do I get a prize? Well thank you to everyone for sharing their experiences! I'm early in my transition so still working on what to do and when. I definitely want to go to Yes on. The results are amazing.
Saw the ENT today, for another reason. However, he did do what seemed like a very quick scope and made me go 'eeeeew'. Said I didn't have any issues, but I imagine I won't really know until I see Dr. Kim in just over a month. At least I guess I know my vocal cords aren't a train wreck.
I always ask my ENT to make a video that I send to Dr Kim. They usually do a stroboscopic camera examination so you can see the vocal chords swing. They ususally let me do "eee" in 3 different pitches. It takes about 15-20 seconds basically, but thats enough. I then copy the video and compress it a bit to send it via dropbox or email to Dr Kim to check. Anything else is less preferrable as local ENTs cannot really judge what the result should look like and can basically only say if something is seriously wrong (whichi s of vourse better than no information, especially if one is concerned...
The German health care seems much better than the NHS, then. He didn't even have equipment to make a video... oh well! I also love how the GBP has tanked due to Brexit fears and I am wiring funds tonight! My timing is always amazing.
In July 2015, the one pound was worth 2.1 dollars. Now, it's about 1.4 dollars
With regards to vocal cords health, Dr Kim used lots of electronic equipment in his assessment. He also had to examine my vocal folds using special electronic devices while I produced different sounds. Only then was he able to diagnose a vocal tremor, asymmetrical vocal folds and scarring.
Thanks, Ritana. I just have bad luck in regards to exchange rates. ;) Most of my money has been wired over now and I'll just pay the rest when I get there. Might as well budget for the botox, too, since it seems almost everyone needs it for some reason.
A few weeks before I went to Korea, the EU was in free fall compared to the USD, so I paid about 20% more than the ones who went there half a year earlier. :(
I think standard ENTs do not have the equipment needed - I always went for clinics here who are specialized in voice! In Germany there are a few voice specialists and they do have the proper equipment. Normal ENTs are too generalized.
By the way - Today its been exactly one year since surgery day for me!
Happy VFSANNIVERSARY, Anjaq!
I am at 7.5 week's post op, and although my voice is definitely more feminine than preop, it sounds like a laryngitis-like voice i.e deep (in the female range), hoarse and a bit raspy.
Did you experience that?
Rita
Oh definitely the past year was one of painfully slow progress with the voice healing. I was able to hold a presentation after about 4 months, but it was only for 30 people and was not that easy. I was asked if I had a cold for many months. Now in winter I am not asked because probably if it happens, everyone just assumes it to be so...
I think it will take for me a few more months to be really in the stage where the voice is clean again. Hopefully. Although I am aware that some raspiness will probably remain.
Oh dear, I've said it and I repeat it. What we have to go through to relieve our dysphoria and gain basic aspects of a ciswoman's body and voice!! The different surgeries, with their recovery times are just draining! I am a few years post SRS, and I have decided not to undergo anymore surgeries, unless they are related to an illness. Enough is enough for me! I have spent so much time and energy on transition surgeries, and I don't want to spend anymore time on recovering from them.
Sorry about the rant, girls!
Denjin
I was never asked to wire any money prior to surgery. I paid the day of my preop consultation.
Congrats on the one year, Anja. :) I'm glad you're finally healing up although I admit all of these stories worry me. As the time gets nearer I am getting more scared since my speaking voice is so critical for my job. *crosses fingers*
Ritana - I sent some money early since my credit card limit wouldn't have left much spare room if I paid when I got there. I did apply for a better card with no international fees, though, and should have it before I go. However, I needed to be prepared in case I didn't get that card before I left.
I just withdrew money in advance and took cash with me to avoid any bad surprises.
Don't worry Denjin, you will be fine hun. Just think about the outcome and how feminine your voice will be. In my case I took 5 weeks off work, then I had to take another 2 weeks off as I didn't wanna jeopardise my voice after all what I went through and the money I spent on the surgery and the costs related to it (plane tickets, hotel, unpaid leave, etc).
I preferred wiring the money to either risking a credit card failure or carrying literally thousands of Euros of money with me on the plane and bus and hotel...
I think also that taking 5 weeks off makes sense and that one should not work with the voice too much in the 3-4 weeks afterwards. It may be hard because jobs are sometimes demanding this, but it should be worth it, considering the price of the surgery. One thing that I really do not want to do in these cases is to take vacation to do trans related surgeries. I regard being transsexual as a sort of sickness and thus believe that getting remedies for it is no different from getting remedies against diabetes or heart problems or whatever else. I believe that health insurances should cover it as well, but I certainly think that it is not our own fault or choice to do these surgeries and thus it should be regular sick leave. If you can find a doctor that will write you unfit for work for this time (which in fact you are, considering you are not allowed to speak for 4 weeks and then not allowed more than minimal conversation for another 4 weeks) , get that...
I may take some sick leave if I can... I assume I can bring a letter from Dr. Kim explaining what I had done and get my doctor to write a note? As long as it gives me a letter that doesn't out me at work anyway.
I may be able to work and just use IM or something and have told them I'll be a mute for 4 weeks.
I told my boss that I have voice problems and basically let them show also in the weeks before the surgery ( not dropping into a male voice or anything, just not supressing some of the things I supressed normally regarding hoarseness and such). I did not specify. My GP wrote me an official sick leave letter with a general diagnosis of laryngitis and throat inflammation - but in Germany the employer does not get the reason for the sick leave, they just get a form from the doctors that says how long one will be unfit for work. This is to protect employees privacy and health status. After 2 weeks, I got another sick leave letter from my voice ENT specialist, so I effectively had to go back to work 3 weeks after surgery and worked with typing and messanging for the remaining 2 weeks until I used my voice again.
In my case the change was not that drastic, so no big questions came up as to why my voice would be so different, if you get a 100Hz or more pitch increase, well, maybe you need to find a good explanation then ;)
Denjin,
Be careful, Denjin! In my post op consultation, I asked Jessie for a letter stating I had laryngeal surgery to show airport staff. She said it was included in the patient pack they gave me post op. When I got to the airport, I had a look at the letter, which I found shocking! It wasn't a letter but more like a report. It stated " This patient has recently had VOICE FEMINISATION SURGERY... " It also explained my voice dysphoria (deep voice!) and past surgeries that I had i.e. FFS, SRS, etc. In other words, "this patient is a transexual" I was so upset that I sent her a quite a disgruntled email about giving me a letter that would definitely out me. In her reply she said it is Yeson's standard practice and that they had never had any complaints about such letters from patients! Needless to say I never -and will never- use such a letter.
Maybe I am different to most transwomen, but for me it's question of privacy and dignity.
Before you leave the centre, make sure that your letter contains no reference to feminisation or trans related terms. This way you can be sure you won't be outed by such a document.
Rita
It seems the majority of trans women these days, especially patients of Yeson, seem not to care too much about being very private about their condition. Lots of trans people now seem to favour "standing up" and being out about their issues, filming youtube videos and such. A lot of them are also out by necessity - because they transitioned on the job or because even with VFS they are still recognizeable as trans. It seems to me that generally the kind of trans woman who wants to be "stealth" is less common and Yeson just think its normal to be out. However they have no issues at all if you tell them you are not and will write the statement differently if needed - they also asked me for permission because they had a film crew in the clinic on the examination day I was there for Korean TV , if I would be willing to show myself and say a few words. I would even have gotten a discount on the Botox. But I declined for privacy reasons and afterwards they just assumed I want not to be seen, they also never ever asked me about post OP videos for Youtube or anything.
I don't think they will ask me either.
Many transwomen are out and proud, and that's fine. However, it's their choice to do so. Outing them in a letter (regardless of whether they want it or not) is well out of order. Plus, I don't see why Yeson don't issue their vfs patients with a simple letter stating they've had a Laryngeal surgery and are unable to speak for a month or so. Isn't that the purpose of such a document? Where is patient's confidentiality and privacy? Anyway, i did express my dissatisfaction very explicitely in my communication with Yeson.
Doctors seem to be like that. My local doctors are always quite liberal with putting "transsexuality" in referral letters for other doctors :( - I had a mammography last year and of course my gyn had to put this on the reference letter that is needed to get this paid for by insurance. It seems that those doctors have some fascination and feel the obligation to share this fascinating fact that a person is trans with their colleaques. I try to avoid this now, but usually they even have some odd explanation on why this is needed and don't want to change it. In case of Yeson it probably is simply that they did not get it at first that some trans people do want to "make a secret" of their trans status
In the case of Yeson it's worse as there is absolutely no need to disclose such info to airport staff! If anything itaymit may increase your chances of being discriminated against. Yeson are probably aware of this universal fact.
I looked up the letter and what I found was a medical certificate. This one states that I had an ochiectomy and that I had voice feminization surgery. So those are things that could be avoided indeed. I even considered not telling them when and if I had any other trans related surgeries. I now trend towards not telling those things to doctors in standard questionnaires.
However I regarded this certificate to be directed at the doctors at home or maybe health insureance, not airport personnel. At the airport, it is none of there business for how long and why I have no voice. I had that flash card that said something about not being able to speak because of laryngal surgery and I did not even intend to use that uless someone does not speak english. Otherwise I just did not speak, type everything and people were suddenly very friendly because they were dealing with a person that had (at this time) an impairment or disability. So I did not care about that letter really, I never intended to use it anywhere. But I understand that if one wants to use it at the airport or elsewhere, it would be annoying to have trans references on it
Quote from: anjaq on February 01, 2016, 03:16:16 AM
Ok, I am closing in on my 12 month post op mark. 3 weeks from now it will be one year since the surgery...
I know its still 3 weeks and all that but I think I can assume that the changes until then will not be enourmous.
So what happened to my voice with surgery was not what I expected, I would say, but its still good. What I expected was a significant increase in pitch (+75 Hz), some change in timbre and the inability to go down into a male pitch range, probably some loss at the top end as well - all of this allowing me to speak without thinking in a female pitch and staying there even if I am startled, tired or whatever. I also expected my own perception of my voice to change , so that I would not feel "fake" anymore when I speak or try to change my voice.
Now what happened was that my pitch increased a bit (+35-45 Hz), timbre changed significantly and over time with a lot of unlearning and getting settled, my average pitch stabilized into a low female range and it became less and less straining to speak, compared to pre OP. So most of the time now I do not think about my voice, have not been misgendered or asked about my voice and because of the change in timbre even if my pitch drops very low, I still don't get weird looks. It has overall improved my self confidence a ton, my self perception of the voice is mostly female and I lost that feeling of "faking something" when speaking, which allowed also my inflections and laughing and all sorts of things about my voice to just run free and I guess my "natural femaleness" rushed in to make those good as well :). When I am among other women I do not feel like I stick out because of my voice anymore, giving me a better feeling of belonging.
But some things did not play out as I expected. While in the beginning I was still expecting a slow pitch increase over the months as Dr Kim described it to me, that did not happen. I went up by 35 Hz right at the day of surgery (of course that means 4 weeks later when I was able to speak) and basically changed to possibly 40-45 Hz increase over time - but that is probably more because I changed my speech patterns and inflections. Interestingly though involuntary sounds changed more than I expected (like squeaking when being surprised or moaning or crying). And while my comfortable speaking pitch ("my sweet spot") changed up, my lower vocal range at first decreased (lowest possible pitch went up by the same 30-45 Hz) but then went back, so I now still can reach once more down to about 90-100 Hz. Luckily it is not happening involuntarily though. My upper range at first significantly decreased from over 900 Hz to 750 Hz, but recently seems to be betting a bit better and I found a new way to produce squeaking sounds ("whistle register") at well over 1000 Hz (C6,D6 even E6) for short moments. Not sounding presentable but still - I never could make a sound like that before.
So that surprised me the most. My vocal range did not really change a lot, I still have my lowest lows but my comfortable pitch changed within that pitch range.
This seems to be a bit unique though as I heard from many others that their average pitch did increase by those 75 Hz or even more and that their lower range was indeed cut off significantly. So I am probably not the best "poster case" for this surgery, just wanted to share it as well, maybe also for those who also experience having stil a low range and all that - the cahnges in perception of my voice by myself and others still has changed massively and is liberating - no matter what pitch ranges and average pitch change says ;)
Anja's expectations are pretty much exactly what I was expecting as well. I gained a bit more in pitch, about 75Hz, but found that I still needed to train my voice to speak consistently and convincingly in a female voice. It wasn't possible to 'just talk' and gain the pitch elevation. After months of vocal coaching, I am still unable to just talk without thinking. That said, it does change the involuntary sounds, I never have my voice crack down into a lower tone, but still have hoarseness and a weird rasp / flute like place that my voice sometimes cracks into. I also find I can't speak as long on the same mount of breath support at normal speaking tones.
For those that exercise, I can report that under exertion I do notice the impact of narrowing my airway both in needing to get more air, and in a raspy gaspy sort of sound when I am panting for air.
Unfortunately, Yeson wasn't helpful post op, mostly ignoring my emails or responding with information that made no sense. My therapist tried to reach them with questions and they responded with stuff that she (Jesse) said made no sense vocally and when we asked for clarifications, and sent vocal recordings, they stopped responding.
Bottom line, I'm glad I had surgery, had I been looking today, I would have gone to Haben just because he's closer (I live in the US). I think that results vary with either doctor, and that everyone who considers this should be prepared to spend a lot of time in vocal training to get full benefits. My advice, start with training, if you can't be bothered to keep up with that, then you'll probably not have a great result no matter who you go to. Don't go thinking it's a simple snip snip and you sound like Jennygirl, it likely won't be like that at all. Jennygirl had an exceptional result but she also worked hard on her voice and practiced rainbow passage and such a lot to get it to sound that good. If you aren't willing to do that before surgery, save the money, you probably won't be able to do it after surgery.
My $.02, I still am happy with my results but it I am considering a 2nd surgery to try and fix some of the issues that were highlighted by the Yeson surgery.
Oh - really? Another surgery? What would that be?
Quote from: anjaq on February 28, 2016, 11:04:41 AM
Oh - really? Another surgery? What would that be?
I'm actually not sure, I have a hope that a little laser can tighten things up a bit and get rid of the buzzy hoarse sounds I hit sometimes, and maybe add a bit more pitch. I have to get a video of my cords to see what is up there, whether asymmetry or because of my notch or what ever. I can do nothing and be fine today, but I'm limited in volume and how long I can hold a note before I run out of breath.
Thanks for sharing your experience, ReDucks. I hope you are able to get the improvements you want before too long. The response from Yeson sounds sort of like what I dealt with at Suporn in regards to my GRS - had complications and at some point they basically quit responding to me.
I'm also worried about the constricted airway thing. I mean, it is a side effect due to what the surgery does, but I've not heard many (anyone but you?) talk about it. If others share their experience it would be appreciated. I'm quite active (4-6 miles per day anyway)...
No one else has comments on airway restriction? I'm just curious since I'm so active...
Two weeks to go here - can't believe how quickly the time has come. My work how has said it'd be best for me to use statutory sick leave instead of holiday. That's all great, but I don't really want anyone to know the real reason. Plus, not sure if I can get the letters and all before I go. Once I get back (and have a Dr. Kim letter which only references laryngeal surgery), I guess I'm covered in some respect. How did others handle this, if no one 'knows'?
The airway is not noticeably restricted as the tie take place out of the way of the air path and is not over 50% of the cord length. If the tie is greater than 50% it alters the quality of the voice.
Quote from: Denjin on March 15, 2016, 12:47:25 PM
My work how has said it'd be best for me to use statutory sick leave instead of holiday. That's all great, but I don't really want anyone to know the real reason. Plus, not sure if I can get the letters and all before I go. Once I get back (and have a Dr. Kim letter which only references laryngeal surgery), I guess I'm covered in some respect. How did others handle this, if no one 'knows'?
Dr Kim can only give you the letter starting the day of the surgery, sadly. So for the days before, you would have to find another solution. Check what the legal issues are regarding foreign country sick leave letters - I believe usually you will have to find a local doctor who will write you unfit for work based on the letter from Dr Kim. Here in Germany, if you get a letter that allows you sick leave from work, that letter never contains the reason for the sick leave, it just states that it is according to medical judgement of the doctor something that is needed. Not sure how this works in your country?
In my case, officially "no one knows" (I am never sure that some people do not suspect or secretly know but its nothing ever openly discussed). What I did was, I got sick leave from my GP for a week prior to VFS - in her files the reason listed is laryngitis. When I came back from Korea, I got a sick leave from a ENT here who knew about my plans to go to Korea and wrote me sick for 2 weeks - in her files I believe it says something about laryngitis as well. So overall I got over 3 weeks of sick leave, but that still meant I had to go to work and be without voice for several days. Even if I would have managed to get sick leave for 4 or 5 weeks, it would certainly have been noticeable that my voice is severly affected. Remember - its not like you have a full voice, then have surgery, recover for 4 weeks and then are fully back to normal.
So I had to announce that I will have a surgery at the larynx that will affect my ability to speak. I kind of prepared people at work to it by actually letting go a bit of my voice control in the months before the surgery which resulted in inreased perceived hoarseness and I used a low volume so it was totally believable that something is wrong with my larynx and voice. I told them I will have this fixed because otherwise it would worsen and it would affect my voice more and more (which sort of is true as my voice was really degrading from the strain I put on it to maintain a feminized voice). I did however not call it voice feminization, did not mention it has to do with trans-something and not even mentioned it will be in Korea. The way I put it out there, everyone probably assumed I have some nodules (and I mentioned asymmetry and vocal tremors as this is what Dr Kim said as well), have that fixed in a hospital here in the city and then will be back to work 2-3 weeks afterwards but still will have to heal a bit more with time.
I cannot guarantee that no one suspected what it was, but no one ever mentioned it specifically or asked more details.
Thanks, Dena and Anja.
Dena - I guess I was worried due to a poster a few posts back who was talking about that issue. Phlegm build up can cause a similar problem, perhaps that is what they were experiencing.
Anja - Well, I'll have to think of something. As this is all elective, I'm not sure how I can really claim sick leave. I think my excuses at work have made people worry about things and they want to 'do the right thing'. So, maybe I'll just use holiday and talk to HR about some sick leave when I get the letter that mentions voice rest. Some days off without using holiday time are better than none! :)
I made a number of recordings today so I can compare at a later date. Basically, the rainbow passage at a 'low' voice, lazy voice, my trained voice, and when I push my trained voice. Then, my normal trained voice but recording some enunciation sentences and also the Pirates of Penzance. This should all give me some good baselines to compare with in the distant future I think? The low recording, which is about as low as I go without sounding fake came out to an average of 157.5. Be interesting to see what that will be...
Quote from: Denjin on March 16, 2016, 02:51:42 PM
As this is all elective, I'm not sure how I can really claim sick leave. I think my excuses at work have made people worry about things and they want to 'do the right thing'.
Ok, I know that this is what we are told. That all of this trans stuff is "elective" and that its our choice to do this and that and that because of this we have to pay for it ourselves and also take holidays or unpaid leave to get these things done.
I think this is not right - our condition is one that is not a lifestyle choice or comparable to someone being a bit obese or wanting bigger boobs. Its a condition we are born with, that kills many of us if untreated (like 20-40% suicide rate or what was it) and that causes us to suffer.
Imagine any other woman whose voice would from an accident or a sickness drop to become a male bass voice - do you not think that she should not only get sick leave for the suration of the treatment of this, but also in fact it should be covered by health insurance?
Personally I see it that way - I am a woman who has suffered some horrible changes to her body that are not my fault and the only choice involved now for me is to if I want to risk the surgeries and endure the recovery to reconstruct my body. Sadly it is hard to get insurance to pay for more than the bare needs, so I actually did pay for VFS, but if I had taken the higher risk and had VFS in Germany, my chances for it being fully covered by insurance - including a full sick leave for the initial recovery period, would have been very good if I would have fought for it.
Thanks, Anja
Yes, I agree about the elective thing. But, without telling too much to people they'd probably think it was elective. Oh well, I'll try and get some days covered anyway!
In regards to the Facebook group. Is it totally secret? I suppose in the group is hacked, then the membership could be leaked though...
In my case, I took my 4 week annual leave, plus 3 weeks of unpaid leave on top of that. Make sure Dr Kim issues you with a letter that doesn't mention "voice feminisation" as thet are very good at that at yeson. They even mention it on the vocal exercises they give you!! I had a friend of mine visiting the other day, and I had to hide the sheet that I accidentally left on the table. Luckily she didn't pay attention.
Well - I said I have voice problems and that they would get worse if I do not get a surgical fix. I told the people at work rightfully that I tried voice therapy first, but it was not enough to help the problem, so I agreed to the surgery that my doctor recommended. Since I am also using my voice for presentations and teaching, I think it was pretty clear that a degradation of my voice would not be helping me in the job, so I made it pretty clear that this is not a choice really - the only part of it that I agreed on as being elective was the date of the surgery and I picked one that allowed me to be in recovery phase while there were not many duties for me at work that needed speaking a lot. My boss appreciated that I chose the date that way.
I did not mention trans stuff. I insisted however on it being a necessary treatment and that untreated, my voice would not get better, but rather worse. I think not mentioning trans stuff actually helped because then it gets taken more seriously. I was asked if I had a cancer or something there but I called it "benign excessive growth" only ;)
And there is actually a diagnosis called "Androphonia" in women (excessively low pitched voice) that applies to many non trans women as well. Just saying... they also get "Voice feminization surgery" or "pitch elevation surgery"...
I honestly think it should be called "pitch increasing surgery" as apposed to voice feminisation. The term would be more professional and would describe exactly what the surgery does. Ikate, who was a member here stated that some girls were able to reach 250hz post vfs but were unable to pass on the phone because their psorody was not right. This shows that vfs alone cannot feminise the voice if you don't work at your inflection and the way you speak. What the surgery does- if it is successful- is increase the pitch, no more, no less.
On the other hand - my pitch increase is not that dramatic - maybe 40 Hz - but my voice changed in the way it sounds to a much more feminine tone. So even using the same pitch as I often used pre OP, my voice does sound differently. Its not just pitch that changes, its also the undertones, but of course prosody changes are indirect (the surgery gives maybe the ability to change prosody more easily because it takes away the strain of increasing pitch by training)
Quote from: anjaq on March 18, 2016, 07:54:07 AM
On the other hand - my pitch increase is not that dramatic - maybe 40 Hz - but my voice changed in the way it sounds to a much more feminine tone. Its not just pitch that changes, its also the undertones, but of course prosody changes are indirect (the surgery gives maybe the ability to change prosody more easily because it takes away the strain of increasing pitch by training)
I have to agree with you on this. I think it's partly because pitch increase makes the interval / range available for fluctuation wider. Julia Roberts is said to have the gender neutral fundamental frequency of 170 hz ( same as me preop) but her prosody enables her voice to be perceived as female.
Quote from: Ritana on March 18, 2016, 02:36:16 AM
What the surgery does- if it is successful- is increase the pitch, no more, no less.
That is what I've (and others) have been saying all along. Resonance is key to sounding female and can be changed without surgery, by changing how one uses their muscles. I disagree about inflection or the way one speaks as I've not changed either but only resonance and my voice passes 100% of the time on the phone.
Quote from: KayXo on March 18, 2016, 11:46:11 AM
I disagree about inflection or the way one speaks as I've not changed either but only resonance and my voice passes 100% of the time on the phone.
So maybe you are or were doing this the right way all along before anyways? ;) - For some it is like that. I never consciously learned inflection or ways to speak, it just developed ok anyways mostly. Except that when I am a bit tired or sad, my voice melody and pitch range narrows and I sound monotone, which is not good and is perceived as masculine.
Masculine is not male though - a woman can sound absolutely female but still have a bit of a masculine voice. If a woman swears like a guy, its masculine, but it does not question her gender.
Its the same thing as with all the other "passing" issues - its the sum that counts. if your voice is female and you swear, no problem, if your voice is already neutral and then you use wording or intonations or swear in a way that usually guys do it, then the perception may swing from neutral to male.
In the end, the more we care if this or that is giving us away, the more we are worrying ourselves, the more we become stressed (we might end up living less and a poorer quality of life due to stress) and then what's the point of doing this at all? Isn't the point being free, being carefree, just being ourselves and doing the things we love as opposed to living for others? Of being happy, stress-free? I know it's not easy but I don't know, it just seems all so wrong to me. My 2 cents...
I'm not a moderator, but it would be nice if we could keep thread for those who have gone or are interested in going to Yeson. We don't need to get into arguments around the necessity of voice surgery, confidence, etc.
Seems my work is fairly insistent on taking sick leave. I'll just try my eventual Yeson letter at the GP when I get back and get something...
Any suggestions on things to do whilst in Seoul? If I wasn't alone or could speak I think I'd do more stuff. As it is, I think I'll spend some time studying for a certification exam, but definitely don't want to be a hermit the entire trip.
I see your point, kayXo. The way your voice is perceived by others helps them-subconsciously- determine your gender to a degree, and this will have an impact on the way most people treat you.
I have a post-op friend who is extremely passable, but has a truck driver like voice. The minute she opens her mouth, people change their attitude/ behaviour towards her.
In my case, I wanted to eliminate any minor doubt in people's mind. Yes, I am extremely passable (not bragging, though), but I am still not a ciswoman. Ciswomen can affoard to slip sometimes, and get away with having some masculine features. It's all in the mind.
Quote from: Denjin on March 18, 2016, 04:04:57 PM
Any suggestions on things to do whilst in Seoul? If I wasn't alone or could speak I think I'd do more stuff. As it is, I think I'll spend some time studying for a certification exam, but definitely don't want to be a hermit the entire trip.
Don't worry about being alone or mute. Consider this - most Koreans seem to be not so good in english anyways, so what would you do then if you could talk? Well, the same you can do now - point, gesticulate, etc...
Being alone is the bigger thing maybe as it makes of course some things less fun. But you still can do things - stroll Meyongdong and Insadong and do shopping there, do some of the tourism things like visit a museum, the Tower, the old Kings palace, Especially now if you go in April , you may even see the cherry bloom time, its supposed to be beautiful.
All I can say about the "being mute thing" is that for some reason I did not let it affect me at all! Actually I was in a weird state of happiness because I knew right after the surgery that my old voice was gone and I would have a female voice when it comes back, so I was happy, even being mute. Weirdly at that time I already acted as if I already had my female voice, I bacame more self confident and more daring in terms of being feminine. It did not matter if I had to type things on the phone or point and sign stuff - people are really really nice to you if they realize you cannot speak, especially in Korea people were really very polite and no one looked at me oddly or ignored me - on the contrary, they kept talking and tried their best to interpret my signs. I believe its also because they have tourists from other countries at least in Meayongdons an gInsadong and most of them don't speak Korean and many maybe not even English, so people may be more used to relying on nonverbal communications. I actually had MORE issues on the day we arrived , I was still able to talk and we tried to find a restaurant that was still open - most could not speak english and so we sort of faile dmiserably because we relied so much on the language, while after the surgery I knew language was not an option anyways anymore and funnily that mindset changed the way I communicated and actually improved my communication with those not good or unable to speak english anyways.
There is absolutley NO need to stick in the hotel for the time until going home. After 1-2 days you can do everything in terms of sightseeing that Seoul offers and enjoy the stay instead of making it a purely medical tourism journey.
Thanks, Anja. You're always so helpful - it's very much appreciated.
OMG, my surgery is in a week... Amazing how quickly time seems to pass sometimes. :O Two questions for people:
- How much availability it there in Seoul for vegetarian food? Can I get dishes with tofu in them easily enough (for protein), etc.?
- I'll be staying at Phil House. Is there a humidifier available or should I get one whilst there? My throat doesn't handle dry air well now, and imagine it'll be even worse after surgery. I'm getting a nebuliser for home, but don't really want to carry one with and explain it to customs.
Vegetarian food should be no problem, meat is expensive anyways ;) - but maybe you should check with Jessie on the examination day and tell her (if it is not in the folder anyways) to write you a card in Korean that says "Do you have any vegetarian dishes?" and such, so you can show them in restaurants later on. At Phil House of course you also have the option to just cook yourself - across the place with the subway station there are a few food markets that sell all kinds of vegetables and also Tofu is sold, I believe. Just its all in Korean, so thats why I said to let Jessie write some things up for you. Maybe also "Do you have Tofu"?
Phil House does not have humidifiers. I did the low tech version and just set up one of their clothes drying racks and "stole" a few more towels and let the soaked towels sit there, always making them wet every couple of hours. But I hear there are great USB-powered little humidifiers available now that you can put on top of a standard water Bottle ;)
Quote from: Dena on March 16, 2016, 01:50:53 AM
The airway is not noticeably restricted as the tie take place out of the way of the air path and is not over 50% of the cord length. If the tie is greater than 50% it alters the quality of the voice.
The tie as you call it is directly in the path of the airflow, which is why many are getting a card or med alert bracelet saying narrowed airway in case of intubation.
If I wasn't clear before, I only really notice it when I am really trying for air like panting after a tough run or taking fast breaths like when singing. In addition to feeling the restriction in airflow, I can also hear it.
Quote from: ReDucks on March 22, 2016, 04:31:27 PM
The tie as you call it is directly in the path of the airflow, which is why many are getting a card or med alert bracelet saying narrowed airway in case of intubation.
If I wasn't clear before, I only really notice it when I am really trying for air like panting after a tough run or taking fast breaths like when singing. In addition to feeling the restriction in airflow, I can also hear it.
I had a 50/40 tie. The shorter cord was about 50% and the longer cord was at 40%. You can see the surgical air way tube in both pictures as well as the upper edge of the cords.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1010.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf224%2FDena_W%2Fv002.jpg&hash=fecc6f9c337b8c424aac19c87c56e3bcb51fdf19)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1010.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf224%2FDena_W%2Fv004.jpg&hash=e2988fc3d82dbeae17fe071985de35dd8e3d0129)
In terms of Internet access, did anyone get one of those KT (Olleh) routers? Seems like not a bad option if you're only there 10 days or so, and get unlimited data. http://roaming.kt.com/rental/eng/product/wibro.asp I saw cheaper ones, but this has lots of data.
Aside from potentially reserving the router to pick up at Incheon when I arrive, is there anything else smart to do in advance?
Personally I do not feel the airway obstruction. The airway after the surgery is not really smaller as that of other women, but it may be unknown at first. I still get really really great exhalation values in health tests, so it does not seem to cause much issue. But this may be different if you have a longer suture or if the suture is more tight (which I suspect it is for those with a bigger pitch gain maybe?).
Regarding WiFi and stuff - Seoul has a lot of free WiFi places in Restaurants and Hotels, but if your happiness depends on being in the net all the time, I would get one of these Olleh thingies. Basically if you have WiFi on your smartphone, you just have to pay the fee for the useage as there are WiFi access points all over the city, in the subway and on many streets. If you plan to go in less frequented areas, maybe it makes sense to rent one of these mobile routers, but I think for 95% of the places you most likely are going to be in Seoul, there is either free WiFi or an Olleh access point installed somewhere.
Thanks again, Anja. :)
I got a router for 10 days, as it only worked out to like £35 in total which is insanely cheap for unlimited data, etc.
On a separate note, is it better to post my surgery experience in this thread or to create another? It doesn't matter much to me either way, I just want to do whatever is more helpful for future people.
Korea seems pretty nice so far. It definitely gives me a sort of Japan vibe... the language totally does my head in. I swear it tricks me into thinking I'm hearing Japanese but then I can't make out any words (obviously). I've not had another language do this. So strange.
What did everyone do for food? I'm not a huge fan of living off western food, but apparently they rarely speak English at the Korean restaurants... the local ones anyway. Perhaps I should just buy some stuff and cook it at Philhouse and then look up good restaurants in Seoul (like famous dolsot bibimbap, etc.).
Philhouse was pretty easy to get to from the airport (took the A REX, then subway 4 and 5). Subway to Yeson (near Apgujeongrodeo I think) looks not so bad, either. How cheap is a taxi? Looks like 1300 KRW each way on subway, which seems crazy cheap to me.
Tomorrow is the exam and day after is the big day. Hope everyone else is doing well!
Taxi is not expensive. I think we paid like $15 from Yeson to Phil House. For daily things I preferred subway as it is much cheaper, but on the return to Phil House after surgery, I preferred Taxi. I had a friend with my, she was looking for a Taxi - if you travel alone, ask Jessie before the surgery to help you out with calling a taxi after surgery. I think they are a bit more expensive if you let them call instead of standing at the road, but so what - on that day you spend $7000 on surgery costs, what does it matter if there is $1, $10 or $20 needed to bring you into your room without hassle. I was so drowsy, I would not have cared if it cost $50 even ;) - but it depends, if you are all up and running and feel great, you can always also take the subway - time difference is not big as traffic in rush hour in Seoul is crazy and the subway is usually faster than the taxi then.
I never cooked at Phil House, even though its possible. But there are a lot of restaurants in the area - often they have pictures of the food they offer, sometimes they have english titles - Without speech (or without speaking Korean), the simplest way was basically to take a photo with the smartphone and show it to the waiter - or point on the picture on the menu. In the old Yeson thread there were some restarurant tips buried somewhere - I personally do not remember them though, but if you go to Insadong, there are some nice looking restarurants all over the place serving traditional Korean food - sadly the really good korean stuff is not so cheap - The table-BBQ is great but usually starts at $20 or more. We did just eat cheaper food (fried chiecken and stuff like that) for daily meals and then had 3 days on the trip where we went out for some more special food and just spent some more money to celebrate the whole journey :)
Since this seems to be somewhat of a general thread, even though I've been to Remacle instead of Yeson, I'll just leave my question here.
Far as I'm aware I'm supposed to use inhaled steroids after the surgery, but the lady at the pharmacy only gave me sodium chloride to be used with an inhalator. Now I'm a bit panicking what damage the lack of steroids could have done, as I'm 4 days post op and haven't had access to them, and probably won't for a 5th day either.
Could anyone educate me what these things are for? Can I maybe substitute them with Ibuprofen until I can pick up the right medication at a pharmacy?
This thread has me a bit baffled at how little communication I had with Prof. Remacle. I'm picking up so much information that would've otherwise just been thought of as given. It was near impossible to ask him about any details of the procedure, and when I was concerned about my frequent coughing post-op he just told me to not worry about it. Heck he even seemed surprised I didn't try to speak.
What I picked up in this thread is that coughing seems to be a lot more concerning than Remacle's "no worries" makes it sounds like. Is he too confident in his laser? Am I overthinking things? I've had to cough about half a dozen times daily, ones I just can't help and I'm in full panic mode lately.
Thanks again, Anja. I'll probably get a taxi home tomorrow, unless I feel amazing, which sounds unlikely. As for food, I'll definitely need to go out and about soon and find some. Dying for some bibimbap. One thing about Seoul - they don't seem to stare much here, really. I notice a few glances, but hell that happens back home too.
Also, saw Dr. Kim today and met Jessie. She's amazing, and Dr. Kim seems very thorough and takes time to explain things to you and also genuinely seems to care.
Apparently I have shorter than average? vocal cords, but also a tremor and one cord is thicker than the other. Lucky me, I need the botox shot.
Lower Pitch reading: 167 Hz average
Higher Pitch reading: 178 Hz average
Lowest 'usable' pitch: 138 Hz
Don't remember the highest, sorry
I've had my trained voice for so long, I'm sure it's lower than 167 untrained, but I don't believe it's massively lower.
Vii
I wish I could help, but hopefully others can. However, it might fit a Remacle topic better as Yeson seems a bit different based on what I see in your story. For example, you ask about steroids, which are a strong anti inflammatory. However, I don't think other voice doctors do the spray you've been asked to use...so, what impact it may have had is hard to say. Ibuprofen is a mild blood thinner - not sure if that's a bad thing at 5 days or not (not a medical professional)?
Also can't comment much on the last two paragraphs as I've not had my surgery yet. However, Dr. Kim's office is quite helpful, but I can only vouch for pre-surgery at this stage. *hugs* Hope you get some info!
Odd, I was sure steroids were common treatment.
Based on this perceived lax aftercare I'm starting to be bothered that I didn't go to Korea instead. They also sort of glued my wound shut after the trachea shave. There's no sutures or anything, but the wound is HUGE. If that's not gonna leave a big scar, I don't know what does.
It seems you girls get to experience cough medication that actually works too. Meanwhile I sit here with basically maple syrup. Tastes nice at least...
Nice to hear you're having a good experience with Dr. Kim though, hope all goes well.
As far as I know Dr kim only uses steroids , cortisol of some sort, as an IV on the surgery day. No inhalation or anything.
Denjin - I think you are right about your low pitch - when I measured my relaxed "male" pitch at home, I was at about 110 Hz, but it took me like 15 minutes to get into the "mood" to do that. At Yeson it was 134 whcih I think was a bit higher than it could have been but my normal everyday pitch was at 140-150 so it was kind of hard to really let it drop there. They did not check my lowest or highest notes though, but I have them from home and knew it was 82 Hz to 880 Hz.
I think a Taxi once is definitely worth just not walking in those endless corridors of the subway stations ;) - also in Korean subway you seem to almost never get a seat when it is even close to rush hour ;)
I cannot tall you a good Bimibap place though, we went to a restaurant in Meyongdong and took that, but it was not really that great - more a bit like "fast food bimibap" for people doing shopping in Meyongdong. So maybe try Insadong and don't let some restaurant advertisers pull you in from the street. I hate that and they do it there - standing on the street and trying to tell you that their restaurant is great and then bring you there... just go into a place you like
Since its April now, almost, maybe you can even find a place that has outdoor seats open already if there is a good weather day, but I believe in general it is probably too cold for that, still.
If you like Bimibap, it may be worth actually buying a pot for that in Korea, they are insanely expensive to mail order here in Europe at least, so I never did even though I would have liked to try that at home.
Quote from: Vii on March 28, 2016, 04:36:23 AM
Odd, I was sure steroids were common treatment.
Based on this perceived lax aftercare I'm starting to be bothered that I didn't go to Korea instead. They also sort of glued my wound shut after the trachea shave. There's no sutures or anything, but the wound is HUGE. If that's not gonna leave a big scar, I don't know what does.
It seems you girls get to experience cough medication that actually works too. Meanwhile I sit here with basically maple syrup. Tastes nice at least...
Nice to hear you're having a good experience with Dr. Kim though, hope all goes well.
I went to Dr Haben and I was given steroids by IV and pill. The function of the steroids is to reduce swelling after surgery and they can be important depending on how much your body tends to swell after surgery. The need for them goes down the longer you are post surgical but Ibuprofen would be a second best substitute.
Yes, Yeson gives an anti-inflammatory shot before surgery and then another before you go home that day. That's it...although you do get your amazing seven days worth of various pills and cough syrup. Wish they gave you a humidifier for a few days, too. The one in your recovery room is very nice and it seems very dry back at the hotel.
My surgery went fine and I just have a sore throat now. I lucked out and there is no numb tongue or anything else weird; just the store throat, which is to be expected. Haven't coughed or anything, but I know have a nagging bit of phlegm doing my head in
Took a taxi back, but it costs like 4x more than using subway, so doubt I'll use the taxi again unless I'm feeling knackered like I am today. Time to see if the Phil House guys can order me something heavy. :)
Quote from: Dena on March 28, 2016, 07:02:20 PM
I went to Dr Haben and I was given steroids by IV and pill. The function of the steroids is to reduce swelling after surgery and they can be important depending on how much your body tends to swell after surgery. The need for them goes down the longer you are post surgical but Ibuprofen would be a second best substitute.
Thanks for the info, far as I gathered Remacle's laser makes for less swelling than usual, so I hope I'll be alright with just Ibuprofen. The pharmacy doesn't want to hand me steroids. Still not sure how to keep the coughing in check and I'm having nightmares in which I keep slipping and do talk, but am aware I shouldn't. Hope the ride ends soon...
Quote from: Denjin on March 29, 2016, 03:51:02 AM
Yes, Yeson gives an anti-inflammatory shot before surgery and then another before you go home that day. That's it...although you do get your amazing seven days worth of various pills and cough syrup. Wish they gave you a humidifier for a few days, too. The one in your recovery room is very nice and it seems very dry back at the hotel.
I got a humidifier at home but if anything, it just adds to the phlegm I already do feel and it gets particularly bad at night. Feels a bit like I'm drowning.
Denjin,
March in Seoul is the worst season of air quality. All kinds of dust are transported from the mainland China. You may purchase some special mask for protecting your throat from a nearby drugstore, but it will not be helpful so much. You can check air pollution at a Japanese site: http://www.tenki.jp/particulate_matter/?p=3
Most Koreans can read simple sentences or words in English. You may show a written memo to any Korean to communicate, as you will not able to talk anyway.
In Seoul, very few people stare at me. Young people are just busy watching their smartphone in subway. Here in my hometown, I still face all kinds of stare from all kinds of people, including people from other countries.
If you really want a nice meal of vegetable, you may try this restaurant. It is relatively expensive, but very special.
https://www.trazy.com/spot/1871/barugongyang-%EB%B0%9C%EC%9A%B0%EA%B3%B5%EC%96%91-restaurant-cafe
barbie~~
Vii, looking at my packet of medications I got from Yeson, they actually give us something that is almost identical to ibuprofen (dexibuprofen). I don't know the dosage or anything, but I am to take them 3x per day.
Barbie - Thanks for the kind information. I will keep that in mind when interacting with Koreans. You are correct about writing things down. People are so friendly here. The taxi driver kept burbling away at me on the way back to the hotel, too, even though I had no idea what the heck he was talking about. :) I picked up a really good 3M mask before I left home, although it has a garish black '3M' logo on the front of it.
I'll have to go that restaurant, it looks like food I had in Japan - shōjin ryōri (精進料理).
Quote from: Denjin on March 29, 2016, 10:59:41 PM
Vii, looking at my packet of medications I got from Yeson, they actually give us something that is almost identical to ibuprofen (dexibuprofen). I don't know the dosage or anything, but I am to take them 3x per day.
For how long are you supposed to take them? After my FFS 1 week prior to VFS I've been given paracetamol, to which I was allergic, so we switched to fairly high dosed Ibuprofen. The way I understand it I have to be careful with long(ish) term use.
I was given a seven-day supply, Vii. Ibuprofen is a fairly safe drug, though. If taking large doses for a long period of time it mainly can cause some upset stomach, and of course it is a mild blood thinner.
Today I'm going to find the grocery store near Philhouse. I'm dying for some fruit and veg. Edit: The Staff didn't know where I could buy fruit and veg and I had no luck finding a shop that sells them. :( I did find a solitary apple, though...beats nothing.
Grocery stores are right on the other side of the big street with the subway station. Also some restaurants there that also offer takeout as well as street food booths.
I think one of the electronics stores certainly has a USB-powered ultrasound humidifier you can put on top of a water bottle
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.everythingusb.com%2Fmedia%2Fsatechi-humidifier.jpg&hash=556a6e2070a8979349b6b16f221825713e11dba4)
Otherwise just do as I did and hang a lot of wettened towels in the room everywhere...
Jessie can help you find the best mask to protect from dust. There is a pharmacy right across the street from Yeson and they have good ones.
Thanks, Anja.
No luck with groceries, but at least they seem to sell fruit on the street here so I've just gone that route. There is an Emart, but it's near the university so a a bit of a trek perhaps.
I must admit I find it so hard not to talk or vocalise at all. I really had no idea how much I made SOME sort of sound!
Ah yes "groceries" is something different there - lol - I was also expecting something like a supermarket as we are used here in Europe or the USA, but they only have thse small shops that sell fruits and veggies, most of it on the street and then have some other stuff inside. Its next to impossible to get something "regular" like bread, butter, cheese and some ham for a sandwich - we tried that at first, thinking it would be easy to get that to have some simple food in the fridge - wrong - lol. If you want to cook, there are those markets that sell veggies and fruits and noodles and rice and all that, there is also a butcher in that area for meat (very expensive!) and they also have soy sauce and all that, so you can make nice noodle soup or vegetable stir fry - but if you want to really do "grocery shopping" as in USA or Europe, you need to find a supermarket and that is not so easy in the city. We speculated that they are probably more to the outskirts of the city? We did not consider it worth it an just lived on what those markets sold - fruits, we found a french bakery for some bread - and otherwise we just went with take-out food and the fried food they sell on the street there...
Thanks, Anja.
Yep, that's exactly it! :) It's different than Japan somehow, too... I guess Korea is Korea (who'd have thought!). Given the amount of time I'm actually going to be here, it's a bit silly to buy too much in the way of 'basics' I guess. I just feel that when I eat out, the food is all very salty or deep fried in some fashion. Definitely will head to the restaurant barbie linked earlier, perhaps even tomorrow for lunch!
The advantage of salty food is: It compensates for the striking lack of salt/minerals in the bottled water ;)
The advantage of deep fried food is, you will not get any stupid stomach infections or such as it is often the case in some asian countries. Even if it is sold on the street - no virus or bacteria can survive being dipped in hot fat for a minute ;)
But yes - there are some restaurants that are less fatty and salty - I found it easier to find those in the city center. Insadong or Meyongdong. In the Achasan area there seems to be more of the simple food restaurants. Oh and don't try the soup shop across the street from the metro station in one of the side roads - No one I know so far liked that soup :P - its too foreign... ;)
Hah! I shall keep all of that in mind. 8)
I think I did too much walking today, as my throat feels a bit odd and scratchy; my Fitbit says it is 4.5 miles. If it still feels odd tomorrow, perhaps I'll call off my Insadong excursion and read a book in the park. I will recommend that anyone else who comes brings a partner. At least in my case, it's a bit too isolating being a solitary mute in a foreign country sometimes. However, I do have to say Korean people seem amazing and are a very very friendly bunch!
It depends on how you are. I had someone with me but she was sick in the hotel most of the time, so it was not really that we did a lot in the city together, but I had fun anyways, exploring Insadong and the "old town" part and the kings palace... Having someone with you causes the temptation to speak something though, keep that in mind. Happened to me twice in that first week :o
Quote from: Denjin on March 31, 2016, 03:42:43 AM
No luck with groceries, but at least they seem to sell fruit on the street here so I've just gone that route. There is an Emart, but it's near the university so a a bit of a trek perhaps.
My wife usually purchase fruit and vegetables at Emart. There are several chain stores. Near Phil House, I can see a "Home plus" express. Express here means a small store. At least you may purchase some selected fruit and vegetable there.
It says it takes about 17 min by walking (1.1 km = 0.7 mile).
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1493/26151953285_f28c0ea68a_b.jpg)
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1635/26126087206_57dc79bb98_b.jpg)
You can also see the location of Home Plus in Google: https://www.google.co.kr/maps/place/%ED%99%88%ED%94%8C%EB%9F%AC%EC%8A%A4%EC%9D%B5%EC%8A%A4%ED%94%84%EB%A0%88%EC%8A%A4+%EA%B5%AC%EC%9D%98%EC%A0%90/@37.5425952,127.0833933,18z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x357ca52715ea23bd:0x8b9902011e7461f8?hl=en
You may go there by taxi after showing the map to the driver. The fare is KRW3,000 (about US$ 3).
barbie~~
True, Anja. I've narrowly stopped myself from talking to myself these past few days... probably would be even worse if my partner was with me. :)
Thanks, barbie. That looks a little bit closer than the emart near the university. :)
I am pondering going to Gyeongbokgung Palace tomorrow, and possibly the War Memorial on Sunday. Then, as many places are closed on Monday I found a temple not toooooooo far from Yeson that I could visit on the day of my check up - Bongeunsa Temple. Hope they are interesting places!
Quote from: Denjin on April 01, 2016, 01:08:34 AM
I am pondering going to Gyeongbokgung Palace tomorrow, and possibly the War Memorial on Sunday. Then, as many places are closed on Monday I found a temple not toooooooo far from Yeson that I could visit on the day of my check up - Bongeunsa Temple. Hope they are interesting places!
You may also go to Jogyesa temple: http://www.jogyesa.kr/user/english/ . Jogyesa is very close to Gyeongbokgung Palace. Google location of Jogyesa: https://www.google.co.kr/maps/place/Jogyesa/@37.5749724,126.9732046,16z/data=!4m18!1m15!4m14!1m6!1m2!1s0x357ca2e9e449881d:0x5694ba3fd890e430!2sJogyesa,+55+Ujeongguk-ro,+Jongno-gu,+Seoul!2m2!1d126.9826498!2d37.5743716!1m6!1m2!1s0x357ca2c74aeddea1:0x8b3046532cc715f6!2zU2VvdWwsIEpvbmduby1ndSwgU2FqaWstcm8sIDE2MSDqsr3rs7XqtoE!2m2!1d126.977041!2d37.579617!3m1!1s0x357ca2e9e449881d:0x5694ba3fd890e430
In the front of Jogeysa, there is the restaurant for veggies I previously mentioned (Barugongyang:
https://www.trazy.com/spot/1871/barugongyang-%EB%B0%9C%EC%9A%B0%EA%B3%B5%EC%96%91-restaurant-cafe ). Google location: https://www.google.co.kr/maps/place/%EB%B0%9C%EC%9A%B0%EA%B3%B5%EC%96%91/@37.5738252,126.9822918,17.5z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x357ca2c278fa6e67:0xb14e8c1d1b864d74
barbie~~
Internet sites says that there are two Barugongyang restaurants at the same building. One is a simple one on the 2nd, and the other is on the 5th where you may enter.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1465/26176528935_26dcecb4c8_b.jpg)
You will see the English sign "Temple Stay" in the top of the building.
barbie~~
Thanks, barbie. It's not so far from the Palace. :)
I would advise others to do this sort of thing on a weekday, though! The Palace was totally heaving by lunch time... and, the restaurant needs reservations. Well, perhaps it doesn't need them, but they are a good idea on a weekend at least. So, get your hotel to phone up in advance would be my recommendation.
For those who stayed at Phil, do they have the liquid or powder for washing your clothes, or do I need to buy some? If the latter, perhaps I'll just wait - not that many days left.
Phil House has washing powder and also little racks to put up to dry your clothes. You can get them just like toilet paper and fresh towels by asking at the reception. Nothing of that costs anything extra.
Thanks, Anja. All sorted. :) Guess the air will be slightly more humid tonight as the clothes continue to dry. Had my first cough since surgery today. Even though it was gentle for a cough, you can definitely sort of feel it afterwards!
My checkup is tomorrow, too. I'll try and keep doing updates (although not much to say until a month after), I promise. I have read through this thread and the other big Yeson thread and so many people basically stopped posting after they had their surgery. It's gotta be 1/2 or 2/3 that stopped! I notice that vocoroo (sp?) links eventually expire anyway, so the chances of people hearing it that you don't want to, etc., should be rather low.
Quote from: Denjin on April 01, 2016, 10:32:19 PM
I would advise others to do this sort of thing on a weekday, though! The Palace was totally heaving by lunch time... and, the restaurant needs reservations. Well, perhaps it doesn't need them, but they are a good idea on a weekend at least. So, get your hotel to phone up in advance would be my recommendation.
Despite the bad air quality, people come out to enjoy the spring, especially cherry blossoms. Yes. All restaurants are full of guests, and it is a good idea to make reservation. I guess there are English-speaking cashiers, as I see the menu in English.
A good news is the air quality becomes better. Here in my hometown (Jeju), it was restored to the pristine state. I am happy!
barbie~~
Yes, I noticed the issue with the vocaroo expiration date as well. Thats a bummer, because there were a lot of voice samples on there. But other services ask for a registration - like soundcloud - and not everyone wants to go through the trouble. Several people did youtube videos though...
Barbie, the air was great in Seoul today, too. I guess the rain yesterday really helped. It made for an amazing last full day here - 20C and sunny!
Anja - yeah some did, but I was looking through and there are quite a few who made a last post either the day of or day after surgery and then went poof. :(
Had my checkup and he said everything was fine, but botox pinched a bit. Not sure if I got a normal or a big dose, though. My vocal cords looked sort of weird to me, but I swear he said there was detritus in there, so maybe it's not as amazingly swollen as it looks.
See (top left is before):
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FRNjBJT3.jpg&hash=f991a851572bb2356f62dcba1e7ad551aac5f6ec)
Sadly often once people are "done" , they disappear. With SRS its the same - you hear about them going, maybe reporting shortly after that it all went fine and then poof. To my shame I did the same in the support group back then - I never went back there after I had my SRS done... but it had other reasons - I did not really want to go there anymore even in the time before the SRS...
There are a bit more longer lasting posts and videos in the Yeson facebook group though, I guess since it is a bit more private than this forum, people are more likely to do records there, plus facebook of course keeps the audio and video files foreeeever.
Anjaq,
I noticed praat gives different readings every day. On some days I can reach 245 hz as fundamental frequency, on others, I get 181? Have you experienced this?
Eesh, I didnt even recognize my vocal cords today until he pointed at them.
They're tiny now with some odd looking glob of glue covering the whole surgical site.
I guess just drowning the whole thing in glue is one way to make sure everything stays in place...
No pics sadly, but on a different note this silent cough method is great! Maybe I'm particularly drowning in phlegm because of that glue. :-X But it sure feels great to get a relief once in a while.
Yes, that glue that Remarcle uses seems to be uncomfortable for some. At some point it will come loose and come out with a cough. It is probably his way to ensure the suture stays tight even though it is a dissolving suture. Dr Kim uses permanent sutures to achieve this. Some patients of Dr Haben who apparently does not use either have reported thair stitches coming loose, I believe? (Correct me if I am wrong).
Ritana - the praat pitch reading depends on a lot of things first of all, if you measure "artefacts", it can distort the average pitch. So if you notive parts of the recording (let praat show the blue pitch line) that are below 120 Hz or above 500 Hz, most likely those are artefacts, unless they are really clearly part of that line. You should not mark that part then for pitch measurement, but choose a different part. You can also just check parts of the recording - just 5 second pieces and see if the pitch varies between them.
Another thing is that average pitch depends a LOT on voice melody and thus on your mood. If I am in a particularly good mood and use a lot of higher pitched parts as part of my voice melody, the average can be 40 or 50 Hz higher than if I am speaking rather monotonously. So if you want to compare, use the same voice melody and pitch range for recordings.
And lastly of course pitch is not stable from day to day or morning to evening. My pitch seems to be lower and more hoarse in the morning then get better over the day and then lower again in the evening with more vocal fry in it...
Speaking of vocal fry - using it (unintentionally mostly) can cause a much lower pitch reading.
All i did was following jenny's tutorial. I noticed that my voice is usually hoarse in the morning then gets better throughout the day before it starts breaking in the evening.
Here is a demonstration of the artefacts, I mentioned:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FzeiuwCC.png&hash=8f8b47e9ba9d7d91cece46073f242cc7a2c1f1df)
Its the same audio clip but I set the pitch detection settings differently and thus different artefacts, marked in red, are detected and incorporated into the average pitch. Its only short moments, but they can change the average pitch significantly, in this case by 10 Hz. So I recommend picking a piece of the text in praat that has no such obvious artefacts but the blue line is more "connected", like in the right part of that section.
In this post, I demonstrated what difference intonation and voice melody can make:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,150142.msg1580699.html#msg1580699
Great post, Anjaq! Thank you!!!!
All back. :) Now comes the additional weeks of being silent at home. Anja, you were right - much harder with others around. It's hard to prevent laughter and other things.
Try not to mimic with your lips as -apparently- it makes the brain think yoy wanna speak. This results in the vocal folds moving which in turn may affect your recovery.
Thanks, Ritana. It's all easier said than done, especially in the beginning. First morning waking up back at home and the dog wakes me up at an ungodly hour... so I whisper lie down which is just doubleplusungood. Doh. Won't happen again anyway. Also, the phlegm seems a lot worse once the pills you get are gone. :( I have my own NAC I'll start from today and see if that helps.
I think the recommendation to basically not speak is because people tends towards extremes. If you say a few words per day, lots of people will just lose track and speak far too much. However, I'm definitely going to listen to his recommendations and hopefully not screw up too much more. ;)
BTW, for those on the Facebook group. I guess I'd need to be friends with someone there? Also, Facebook itself would then know you're TS, right? Meh. Whose to say they don't do something stupid with privacy settings at some point, etc.
Well, after returning home one is in the "1-2 words a day" phase, so the occasional word is not too bad. But basically what I did in my mind after surgery was to switch somehow to pretend I am totally mute. Apparently this worked well since after 2 weeks people told me that my gestures and also my nonverbal expressions were very similar to that of mute people they know - lol. Basically I told myself to forget that I can speak for those 4 weeks somehow. But I did not go so far and learn proper sign language - no one but a few people could understand it anyways.
I also took something against the phlegm for the 4 weeks, it just helps not to cough too hard.
I made a Trans-profile on Facebook that is basically openly trans but has only a distored image of myself in the profile and not a real name. Maybe one day they will close it down, but its the only way I can be in those groups and not be "outed". OTOH Facebook probably still knows that me and "trans" are connected topics because they have their stupid button everywhere and track everything...
The facebook group itself is secret though, so it does not show up right away in your profile...
Thanks, Anja. Starting on my own NAC has seemed to help with the phlegm at least. I've still said a couple of words due to stupid things, but my brain will be used to this very soon.
Guess I'll pass on Facebook, unless I want to make yet another account on another email address.
At least the NHS pulled through and gave me my sick note and also a referral to an ENT for June so I can get an exam as per Dr. Kim's request.
My four weeks is up, one week from next Tuesday. However, I don't understand how I'm supposed to speak? Dr. Kim said to just speak in a relaxed manner and not tighten up my throat, but you need to do that for proper resonance (at least keep the larynx high?). Any ideas?
Also, I had a brain dead moment and tried to do a verbal response to someone today, and nothing even came out... So either I'm doing something wrong or I'm in no position to speak yet (still 9 days off anyway).
Thanks!
Sorry to say that, but it probably will be COMPLICATED. In a way the goal IS to speak relaxed, no tightening up the throat - just speak. If you did too much voice traininge before it may be that you need to unlearn a few things. Especially resonance is a weird thing. It seems one can get a female resonance in different ways and you need to find the one that does not involve too much tightening up muscles at the larynx. It will take time... :( - but just go with it, test what works and what hurts, the exercises kind of point in the right way but are not enough. Better allow yourself a lower than expected pitch rather than tightening up to elevate pitch, rather focus on speaking cleanly and well articulated...
Thanks, Anja. Guess I'll have to 'play around' with my voice next week. Hopefully I have one, as I was surprised when nothing came out at all when accidentally trying to speak earlier.
It's a bit of a journey to find the voice again and to find out how to use it properly. I am not even done yet after over a year, but I am a slow learner, as it seems ;) - most get it after 6-9 months.
Anja
I am getting a little worried. It has been 3 months and one week since my surgery, and my voice still sounds hoarse and a bit raspy. My pitch has dropped too. 2.5 months post op I was able to reach 254 hz ( the max fundamental frequency I achieved). Now my mean frequency has dropped to around 200 hz, and the hoarseness is still there!
Ritana - the 3 month mark is usually where the Botox stops working and the voice gets a bit different again. So you probably are in that phase. Remember that 200 Hz are totally fine as an average pitch, even 180 Hz would be totally fine. 254 Hz is a pitch that is not really the regular average pitch after a voice surgery unless you happen to have a female pitch before the surgery already.
Breathiness/Hoarseness and lower pitch go hand in hand - same with lower volume. Its part of the process, really. I was constantly asked if I have caught a cold while people did not made any remarks about my voice sounding differently from before the surgery at month 4 and 5 even - people did not notice I had surgery, a higher pitch, a more feminine voice, but they noticed the hoarseness :(
If you decide to take the clonazepam, it will change the voice a bit again, and especially when that phase ends, the voice changes again. I had the impression that after the clonazepam, at about month 9 when the withdrawal of the drug was ending, my voice was really getting much better and less hoarse and had more volume - I lost a bit of that IMO when I had to restart clonazepam again, but there are long times when it is ok now, but occasionally I have hoarseness.
I believe the hoarseness comes when we use the new voice in a wrong way - especially when tensioning up some muscles that are supposed to relax - maybe out of old habits, old feminization techniques or some other reflex. I found that usually when I experimented a bit, also with the voice exercises and with my speech therapist, sometimes I would "find" a way to use my voice that sounded good - no hoarseness... but its hard to really stay in that place all the time for me somehow. Especially when I am stressed...
My pre-op relaxed pitch was around 170 hz. Around 2.5 months post op, it got in the range of 220-240 hz. On one instance I managed to reach 245 hz and a weak later, I got to 254hz. Now that my voice has started breaking, I'm down to 200 hz. I've been taking Clonazepam for the last 10 days, and my voice seems to be improving, so fingers crossed!!
Are you sure the 170 Hz was truely the relaxed pre-transition voice? I had 134 Hz measured by Dr Kim for pre OP but I know that this is not what my pre transition voice was, it was lower. But I could not really let it drop that far anymore out of habit. Not in front of people.
Also pitch goes up and down with many things, especially average pitch - hoarseness and breathiness and it goes down, being tired and it is lower, being sad or depressed it goes down, having fear or being excited or speaking loud, it may go up. Using more voice melody and it goes up - I had to report a drive path for my last examination. Talk about what path I took with the car to the hospital. My post OP average pitch for that monotonous and boring text was at 145 Hz !! I did read my standard text afterwards and it was back up at 180 Hz...
My estimated statistical pitch according to Dr. Kim was 161 hz. My speech therapist regularly used to get 170- 175 hz as relaxed pitch. Dr kim reckoned i was subconsciouly straining even when producing a relaxed pitch. Therefore, he created a statistical pitch of 161 hz.
Quote from: Ritana on April 19, 2016, 09:58:30 AMI've been taking Clonazepam for the last 10 days, and my voice seems to be improving, so fingers crossed!!
Yay! Really hopeful for you. :)
Thank you hun!! X
Wow, you're having good news x 2 at the moment. :) This botox seems sort of terrible, but I guess it at least mostly prevents people from doing stupid stuff for a few weeks post surgery. However, it still seems like it'd be of most use for rather severe tremors compared to what many here seem to have.
You may not get the same severe side effects as me as I had an exceptionally high dose of botox to discourage me from speaking. I certainly did feel like a dead soul since my return from Korea up until about 10 days ago!
My voice is still a bit hoarse, though!
I'll keep my hopes up, Ritana. I hope it doesn't get worse.
I tried my emergency words today (5 days left) and I can make sounds now, that's good. Almost made me cry since it sounded so great, though. Can't wait to see what it sounds like when I can actually speak properly!
Hey, thats great! When i tried my "emergency words" before the 4th week was over, it sounded horrible, so I did not want to repeat that... but it got better eventually ;)
Quote from: anjaq on April 21, 2016, 03:03:09 PM
Hey, thats great! When i tried my "emergency words" before the 4th week was over, it sounded horrible, so I did not want to repeat that... but it got better eventually ;)
Well, I was surprised how high it was considering I wasn't making any effort on pitch. Still, it seems that speaking will be different. You can't really play around on a few words per day, but it's not many days now!
Yay, I can speak now. Although it sounds like I have terrible laryngitis and there is some sort of weird head vibration I can feel whenever I speak. I guess this is due to swelling and/or botox?
Also, this voice progression image from Yeson has to be bollocks, doesn't it?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F6pEpHzl.jpg&hash=2074f740bbbee24875bf73eaa46a7ead7eba15f3)
I do not really believe that image either. For most it seems more like right after surgery, or basically within the first 4 weeks, base pitch changed by a big part of what it overall changes, afterwards some pitch change can occur from swelling going down, but that is mostly due to the hoarseness also lowering pitch and the hoarseness needs time to fade. Some patients had sudden pitch increases later on, but the base pitch seems to be set right away, the changes shown in the graph seem to me rather to be the average speaking pitch levels of patients and they depend to a large degree on getting used to the new voice, using it properly and such things - only ion the first weeks I believe there is a real increase due to the swelling going down.
Yeah, I can see that being related to people getting use to and then using their new voice properly I suppose. Or, just trying to keep people from freaking out at first since many probably need time to get used to the voice?
At four weeks, I can tell my voice is higher but it won't work in a full range yet. Plus, I don't have the ability to really try out the range, either... I guess over time I'll be able to find out what works best.
15 month update:
today (relaxed and with some conscious prosody)
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0TDk4KlfcYX
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1I7Bx59UzZ2
pre OP:
relaxed:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1I7Bx59UzZ2
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0u0Yz4iNw81
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0k4ym82cPEA
with a lot of effort:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1r5atoli4uu
I think I can be happy :)
Admittely when not reading but just talking, pitch drops a bit, but not that much anymore.
Readings are: Pre OP ranging from 120-160 Hz, now 190-210 Hz.
Yes, it does sound better. More natural and the 'texture' is somehow different from before, too.
Ok, I was told the recordings from yesterday are not good - I speak too low volume and "whisper"... So I did 2 new ones.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0YxkdPlFPle
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0W9k8H1x5LG
Its about 180-190 Hz on average (single sentences range from 160 to 220 Hz when averaged)
Subtle difference between pre and post-op. The important thing is how you feel, your confidence level and overall happiness. :)
Well, some difference is there although I must say its not as dramatic as with some others. Pitch gain is about 30-60 Hz, timbre is different, I am not getting misgendered anymore on the phone, so it has to have changed and I do not hear the low undertones in my head anymore when I am speaking. So I am ok, although probably it could have been more dramatic, like getting a 210 Hz average as Dr Kim predicted.
Part of why the change is not so dramatic is of course that the pre OP voice is already feminized for 16 years before the surgery happened. I tried once to simulate what my pre transition voice would possibly have been, but I am not sure I hit it - it sounded horribly masculine though at 110 Hz average, making it a bass baritone, probably.
Dearest I have a question :
I plane to have SRS and Voice Feminization surgery in short period time
I can either go Thailand have my SRS done then going Korean have Voice surgery or i can put my voice surgery first then going to Thai have SRS.
I would like to ask is it safe have those two surgery in a short period of time .Like 4 weeks gap between each of them????
No - you cannot have those two surgeries within 4 weeks. After GRS in Thailand, you usually need to wait for several weeks until you are healed well enough to travel and need to rest and let the body heal from a major surgery. After VFS you need to wait at least 2 months to have another surgery performed and be very very careful then about intubation as this goes through the vocal folds. Dr Suporn is apparently aware of the Yeson procedure and post op protocols, but not before the 2 month mark. Also as far as I know both surgeons, but Dr Kim for sure, require you to have had no surgery with general anaesthesia for 2 months before the surgery.
So 8 weeks distance is possible, but even then I would definitely talk to the surgeons about this before booking
Thanks for replied .Anjaq
I been contact the both Doctor in Korea and in Thai
The Thai SRS recommend me have SRS first then going to Korea.
Dr Kim in Yeson told me is okay i can have voice surgery 4 weeks later after my SRS ,As long as i don't have flu or fever will be fine
But i will be more careful
Thanks a lot
Ok - thats the best choice - definitely its better to have VFS as the last surgery because of the issue with the intubation. 4 weeks between two full anaesthesia surgeries is maybe a bit tough on you, it depends on your general physical health and resilience if you will manage well with this. Also be aware that 4 weeks after GRS, travelling is not yet that easy because sitting is not comfortable and can be painful. It also depend on you not having any complications with GRS that requires a longer stay near the clinic. After VFS you are also bound to stay for a week in Seoul to go to the checkup. Do you intend to go back to Thailand after Seoul to have you checked up there, too?
I personally do never recommend having surgeries as close like that. I have seen it with some people that something goes not perfectly accoring to plan and then things get messy - especially if one wants to keep the plan, but the body would need a new plan... so forcing it is not good - if you realize that you are not ready to travel and have another surgery after those 4 weeks, then just don't and postpone it instead of forcing it, which can give you health issues or suboptimal results.
So, I'm able to start the voice exercises now. They are quite difficult or me due to currently limited range. I guess that bit will get better? I can't really even do the lip trills... my lips just don't work that way. Also, do you have to keep doing the exercises to keep your eventual range. Anyone know?
The lip trills should give you more range. Do them with your hands at the cheeks as it was shown to you. this heps a lot to do the trill thing. There is also that Yeson video that shows her holding the hand at the lips/cheeks to help, just do that and you should be able to do lip trills
Thanks, Anja. It just took me a day to get used to it and I can sort of do it now. Looking on the Internet, lots of people have problems doing them for whatever reason. I've definitely lost range on the top and bottom and hope these help to gain it back (on top anyway). Is the gain permanent or will I need to keep these exercises up forever?
I gained part of the top range back within about months 4-9 - I should do a checkup again, last time I lost a bit again - it varies from day to day. I think it definitely helps to use that upper range more often in order to keep it alive, otherwise one gets out of the habit of using it. I mean - its a part of my voice that I do not use a lot - the upper range goes about to 700-800 Hz (pre OP it was 800-900), this is only used if I am doing voice training or maybe if I would train to sing.
I also gained something in the whistle register, it starts in a range over 1000 Hz but I cannot really do much with it as it is just "whistling" ;)
So I think the upper range will usually improve somewhat with training - depending on where it was before and where it is now (do you have numbers on your upper limits pre and post OP?). Ans I also think that it helps to use that range - either by voice exercises or by singing - to keep it working cleanly.
Ahh, ok. I didn't record my pitch range, aside from doing recordings of my lowest and highest voices. I just noticed that when doing scales I can't really hit the top yet. :)
Well, I think everyone is a bit different there - I did the scales and I was able to go pretty high at week 8 when I started to try it, but it was harder to do the upper pitches and they were straining and not sounding clean. It gets better if I train and gets worse if I lack training - the pitch range itself is less affected than the clarity of the voice at those pitches - but this is all way beyond my normal speaking range anyways, so its not an issue for me
Thanks, Anja
I just sort of crack a bit at the top, it at least sort of works. However, I find my voice lacks clarity at pretty much all pitches at the moment. My mother said it sounds like I have a head cold.
Yes - that sounds like I know it. I sounded like I had a cold for many months - even after a year I had days I woke up with that sort of raspiness to my voice (especially when I did not take the clonzepam) and in the higher pitches it was always worse. It takes a long time to fade away and in the high pitches even longer since those are not really used. I never use my voice at 700 Hz... I guess the pitches I use in regular speech are maybe from 130 if I happen to drop really low to 400 if I go really high for a word or part of a word each and the average is 180-200 Hz - so that range works ok now after 15 months.
Guess it will just take a while to heal, then. Amazing how some seemed to have clear voices fairly early on... oh well!
I guess some heal faster - maybe it has to do with age or general health or the way they use their voices - I used my voice wrong for most of the healing time, causing it to be more strained than it should be. So doing these exercises properly may be really helpful and also a SLT - maybe it also helps to send in a very short video of you doing the voice exercises to Yeson for analysis - I did that and they told me to change some things that I apparently misunderstood.
Also - if you want to do impressive recordings for vocaroo to post somewhere, its probably possible to get a clean voice by using a very low volume and holding the microphone close to the mouth ;) - I did that at week 4 and 5 because I could not speak much louder without the voice getting strained and hoarse. AFAIK Jenny did that as well initially since you are not supposed to speak louder than what your voice is able to do withoug getting strained - at least in the first weeks
Thanks, Anja. Dr. Kim's office blames botox for how I sound, but we'll see in 1-2 months when it wears off I guess. Also seeing a speech pathologist in a week and a half and that should help for some useful input.
I have noticed that I have a terrible tremor now. When doing the exercises and holding the mmmm or mi sounds it sort of warbles badly - much worse than before surgery. If botox was supposed to help there, I shudder to think how bad it will be in another month or two.
I think the surgery makes the tremors worse initially, the botox and later clonazepam is given to decrease that effect until the healing is progressing enough for the tremor to subside again.
... so.. im post-op vfs at yesons and im not quite sure about my pitch gain tbh, it still seems to fluctuate between 200 at lowest and 250ish at best (without using a falcetto/headvoice kinda thing, which i obviously have been doing before the operation) ; i guess continuous speech therapy would stabilize it to come around somewhere in the middlegrounds of 220-230.. hm, though, i meant self-deductive therapy, as ive all the instructions given ; imo i dont think that professional training will do much ( it might even make it worse by overstraining my voice trying to explain wth exactly is the deal X'D ) http://vocaroo.com/i/s0mGRbqW4S6P
It's not clear how long ago your surgery was but I will agree you need to heal sufficiently before you seek speech therapy. Based off your current sample and assuming you had sufficient time to heal, you require therapy. The range is clearly feminine however your speech pattern sounds like that of a very young (like 5 or 6 years old) girl. You need to learn how to use a feminine speech pattern so your voice will be accepted as a more mature woman.
perfect ^^ i want to sound like a little girl anyway, its how i feel, soo... i disagree <3 i also disagree on the speech therapy because as previously mentioned, that going by my presumption, id be quite the contradiction wanting to sound like a mature woman, wouldnt it ? ^^ (and try to hide that envy better from your rhetorics... its quite noticable.. c; ) i sound awesome ^^
Quote from: sora_ on May 07, 2017, 11:47:39 AM
perfect ^^ i want to sound like a little girl anyway, its how i feel, soo... i disagree <3 i also disagree on the speech therapy because as previously mentioned, that going by my presumption, id be quite the contradiction wanting to sound like a mature woman, wouldnt it ? ^^ (and try to hide that envy better from your rhetorics... its quite noticable.. c; ) i sound awesome ^^
I think you need to work on your voice... from what I heard you have a very limited voice, and It sounds weird to me... Just my honest opinion :) It has a lot to do with HOW you speak as well, not just your range.
sure ^^ fair enough , i know i tend to speak veeery high , but its also my childish nature <3 so , but im barely 3m post op, and im trying to extend my range up atm, cause decreasing it down,.. well at least imo, is not that hard at all, i can def speak lower around 215-220hz , but yeah intonation, pronunciation, blah ^^ i know after all ive done all the transitioning operations known to man and im barely well, ... deduce my age from my voice, im barely 20
thanks for feedback anyways girls ^^ im working on it (when i recorded that, i did not, strain my voice btw, i just experimented with , whats possible, without force), if i go head voice... THAT sounds chipmunkish X'D i dont even wanna record ; super happy with the result however, kudos to Dr. Kim and Jessie ~
I find it very nice. Admittedly I am a bit envious as I am just at 180 Hz post OP but hey, I am 42 and so its ok. It would not fit me to be sounding like a teenager, but at age 20 it is ok. I was in my early 20ies when I transitioned and felt like a little girl as well. I also did a lot of things that were more appropriate for a teenager, including getting one of the famous belly button piercings that teenagers of that time did in secret with faked parental consent - lol. I think the voice will develop naturally to be more mature over time as you use it and as you develop yourself.
Its great you gained so much pitch - apparently age really makes a big difference when it comes to this surgery and the outcomes of it
Hello,
I was wondering what the cost for VFS is with Dr. Kim; also, hotel costs ( I assume I need to be there 9 days) and flight costs for Eastern USA. Also, what is the waiting period?
anjag, I lost your PM that you sent me a while ago. If I get Dr. Kim's procedure success it is largely due to his expertise reducing the vocal cord thickness with a laser. This in turn changes the timber of the voice. Also, he raises the pitch but the timber is of great importance. He also leaves in permanent sutures. Did I remember the gist of the PM?
Hi, so I went recently and I can actually give some pretty precise numbers:
Surgery: $7754.42 ($7,528.57 + $225.85 international transaction fee)
Botox: $420.29 ($408.05 + $12.24 currency conversion fee)
Flight: $1,576.63 per ticket (keep in mind I ended up traveling at peak times, you can probably do better)
Hotel: $582.07 for 9 nights at the Princess Hotel (which I would highly recommend since it's within walking distance from Yeson)
Other Expenses (transportation, food, entertainment, ect.): around $1000 (I came with my brother so I was paying for both of us)
It's also a very good idea to call your bank before hand and let them know your travel details, and make sure you don't have any sort of daily limit that would prevent you from charging the surgery if you choose to put it on a card.
Miyuki, thank you very much for the information.
Hello everyone, I have a question about Yeson recovery. I'm currently 6 weeks post-op from Yeson. I've noticed that my pitch varies greatly. Like, my f0 varies between 195Hz and 170Hz. It tends to be lower earlier in the day, if I've been speaking too much, or if I'm dehydrated. I know the pitch is expected to drop with these things, but is such a great variation throughout the day normal for this point in my healing? It's hard to tell what my expected final results will be when it seems to be all over the place. My pre-op fundamental frequency was 144Hz for reference. Thanks!
Your pitch is supposed to peak when you first start to speak then it will gradually start dropping a bit. I was at 245 -250 hz when i started speaking post vfs. I am now at 220 hz. However, that seems to be the general rule. Your case maybe different.
Quote from: Ritana on July 14, 2017, 03:16:51 PM
Your pitch is supposed to peak when you first start to speak then it will gradually start dropping a bit. I was at 245 -250 hz when i started speaking post vfs. I am now at 220 hz. However, that seems to be the general rule. Your case maybe different.
I hope that's not the case... Because then I'd get only like 30Hz if even that from the surgery. It's not like age is working against me - I'm in my mid 20s.
I didn't go to Yeson but my voice after surgery was lower due to swelling that limited the movement of the vocal cords. At three months I was up to 220HZ and I held that pitch for over a year. I now found I have move up to about 230Hz at two years after surgery. The healing process can go on for a long time so don't be quick to judge the final voice.
Also, if the 144HZ was your chest voice, you need to learn how to use your head voice. This will help you obtain the proper resonance and it will move your voice up another 30-40HZ minimum. Voice surgery is 50% surgery and 50% therapy. Surgery along for most people will not give you a proper final voice.
In 3 days I will be two months post-op and can start the exercises. Unfortunately, my pitch gain is still pretty disappointing. Reading the rainbow passage shows my pitch has only increased 30Hz (174Hz now vs 144 Hz before). I really hope I will get more of an increase in the coming months but at this point I'm doubtful, since it seems to be stabilizing at this point.
Did anyone else here have a similar experience? I was at least hoping the surgery would get me firmly in a female pitch range so that at least pitch would be effortless, but I guess I'm stuck in gender neutral (at least for now).
You can still sound female at 174hz with the proper resonance and prosody. Yes it's harder than if you had say 220 hz but it still possible!
Quote from: Ritana on July 26, 2017, 11:25:48 AM
You can still sound female at 174hz with the proper resonance and prosody. Yes it's harder than if you had say 220 hz but it still possible!
I read the rainbow passage today (as well as some other stuff), and my voice is measuring around 192Hz. I guess I should probably just calm down and be patient, and wait for the healing to be done before I judge the final result. But that's me, I've always been an anxious person.
That sounds like you are still using the chest voice. I suspect that would be pretty similar to my results except I knew I needed to use the head voice so I started using it as soon as I could speak. I said 50% therapy and that's where the head voice comes it.
Quote from: Dena on July 26, 2017, 03:04:27 PM
That sounds like you are still using the chest voice. I suspect that would be pretty similar to my results except I knew I needed to use the head voice so I started using it as soon as I could speak. I said 50% therapy and that's where the head voice comes it.
Perhaps. I've done some basic voice training on my own before surgery, but not enough. I start the Yeson exercises in a couple days, and I'm also talking with a local voice therapist that has a program for transwomen as well (I think that will help me a lot). I'll post here later to update on my progress, if anyone cares.
Remember that high pitch does not give u that natural female voice as much as propre resonance does (as long as your pitch is above 170 jz). Paradoxically enough, resonance seems to get worse straight post vfs with yeson hence the importance of speech therapy
Quote from: Ritana on July 26, 2017, 05:32:31 PM
Remember that high pitch does not give u that natural female voice as much as propre resonance does (as long as your pitch is above 170 jz). Paradoxically enough, resonance seems to get worse straight post vfs with yeson hence the importance of speech therapy
I've noticed this! In fact, post-Yeson I've been speaking in a much more monotone way than I usually do. I just chalk it up to the healing process.
What you're talking about is prosody.(pitch fluctuation). Resonance is different. It's the way your voice resonates. I think voice breaking post vfs impatcs badly on resonance as it makes the voice resonate more frequently in the chest. Sadly our larynx is larger than that of ciswomen. That is something that vfs won't change.Speaking softly and letting air escape as well as using nasal cavities will inevitably help.
Quote from: Ritana on July 26, 2017, 11:57:19 PM
What you're talking about is prosody.(pitch fluctuation). Resonance is different. It's the way your voice resonates. I think voice breaking post vfs impatcs badly on resonance as it makes the voice resonate more frequently in the chest. Sadly our larynx is larger than that of ciswomen. That is something that vfs won't change.Speaking softly and letting air escape as well as using nasal cavities will inevitably help.
Thanks for the clarification on the terminology. This can all get so confusing sometimes.
So an update on my progress. I've been measuring my pitch with the rainbow passage in praat every day, and the variation is very interesting. A couple nights ago, it measured at 222Hz. Last night it was about 202Hz. Other nights it is 195ish Hz. I wonder if the yo-yoing in pitch each day is an effect of the Botox. Regardless, the bounds of this variation seem to slowly be getting higher, even if it does vary each day.
I start my exercises tomorrow which I'm pretty excited about. I know Jenny said that those helped a lot, so hopefully they help me as well (I do definitely need to work on my resonance). I'm hoping my pitch settles sometime within the next month because the up-and-down uncertainty is frustrating.
I wouldn't be too concerned about the "yo-yo-ing" as you put it. I know that numerically it seems like a lot, but the difference between 195 and 220 hertz is literally one note in a scale. G to A. Could be the simple difference that happens with time as your larynx gradually rises during the day :)
My final base pitch is about 175 Hz. It was the same at 2 months as it is at 2 years. I started at about 135 Hz at Yeson, so that is "only" a gain of 40 Hz. However 175 Hz is low female range, so its ok as long as my resonance is right and I think I am mostly ok with that, except some vocal fry. Pitch fluctations do exist for me as well, it largely depends on prosody, which depends to a degree on my mood. If you record the same passage wit a rather relaxed but monotone voice and another time with a more lively voice that uses your pitch range, that second recording can be up to 30 Hz higher in the average pitch reading in PRAAT or other software. This is also part of the voice training and female speech patterns - increasing voice melody and pitch range which in turn increases average pitch. So while my base pitch is at something like 170 Hz, my average speaking pitch will be usually anything from 180 to 200 Hz, sometimes more. I found also that it comes now natural and is eas to go really up in pitch for some words - I naturally do this when saying "hello" or "bye" to someone - or "thanks" - In these situations my pitch just goes way up. When I am talking more serious business it goes down to the 170 Hz - so it varies a lot, which is actually a good thing as this is natural for a female voice.
Hello,
From pictures I have seen here Dr. Kim's work looks to have very precise mucosal skin removal and very fine sutures and organized. Also, the pictures show how the tension on the newly created wound is relieved by the Botox injection. It does not look like a laser was used. The stitches are permanent and that may be the reason the stitches are precisely located, correct? Also, from the video on the site it looks like the vocal fold is somehow detached a bit from the cartridge. Is that correct? Am I correct in what I am seeing? Is a laser used on the vocal folds?
From pictures I have seen from Dr. Haban's work it looks like the mucosal layer is jagged and the sutures are a crisscross. The sutures are resolving. Also, the vocal fold and the area sutured is very red and looks sore. Also, the vocal fold looks sore. Does Dr. Haban use a laser on the vocal fold? Why is his work look like the area is very sore and jagged? Are Doctor Haban and Doctor kim's pictures both 1 week after surgery?
Dr. Spiegel, I have not seen any pictures of his post surgical work. He told me he performs the same procedure as Dr. Kim and Haban but that he has been doing it longer. I do not know if his work looks like Dr. Kim's or like Dr. Haban's 1 week after surgery. Does anyone here know anyone that has gone to Dr. Spiegel? Has anyone spoken to anyone that has gone to Dr. Spiegel for VFS? Are there any pictures of the work he does 1 week after surgery.
I am preapproved for Dr. Spiegel in network and Dr. Haban out of network and not covered for Dr. Kim even though his surgical (not room and board and travel) are cheaper than Dr's Spiegel and Haban. Dr. Kim's surgery would cost about $10,000, Dr. Haban $2000 plus travel and room and board and Dr. Spiegel $1,000 plus room and board.
My voice therapist said she is not a fan of VFS. I think Dr. McGinn said the exact words (Dr. McGinn used the same vocal therapist). My vocal therapist said I could have a feminine voice with more practice and that my pitch is not an issue. I feel as though my pitch and timber are an issue. I am at 170 to 240 hertz on my phone app during vocal training when we are reviewing pitch. This weeks assignment is resonance.
Right now I am doing round two hair transplants Sept 25 and a vaginal procedure Nov 20th then either tackle voice or some soft tissue face work. I am going to give voice lessons 10 or 12 months for a chance to optimize the training than make a voice decision. I will get a consult with Dr. Haban prior to the decision. Is there a Skype consultation available with Dr. Kim?
I am sorry but I may post here from time to time to get some perspective and recommendations. Presently from what I have seen, read and heard Dr. Kim's work looks very precise, neat and clean. The cost of his surgery is definitely a factor in the decision process.
There are two major differences between Dr Haben's work and Dr Kim's work. Dr Haben uses a laser and dissolvable sutures and Dr Kim uses permanent sutures and a micro scalpel. I have heard results from both doctors and both can produce good voices. I have also heard a few that were off and I am not sure if it was the surgery that was at issue or if they didn't follow up with voice therapy. In both cases, the part of the vocal folds that needs to be joined is injured then held together with the suture. Not speaking is very important to allow the folds to be come one.
Also understand that sometimes repairs need to be made to the vocal folds because of voice abuse or natural defects. If you see an irregularity, that could be the result of a repair and might not be a direct result of the surgery.
My personal opinion is if you don't need surgery, you should avoid it and stick with therapy. In my case, I used Dr Haben because with CTA, he could produce more of a change in pitch than Dr Kim and with 130HZ for a trained voice, I knew I had a real problem on my hands. The truth is that either surgeon could have produced sufficient pitch change in my case.
Photobucket killed my surgical images however if you haven't seen them, let me know and I will email them to you.
Quote from: Rachel on August 06, 2017, 03:05:44 PM
Hello,
From pictures I have seen here Dr. Kim's work looks to have very precise mucosal skin removal and very fine sutures and organized. Also, the pictures show how the tension on the newly created wound is relieved by the Botox injection. It does not look like a laser was used. The stitches are permanent and that may be the reason the stitches are precisely located, correct? Also, from the video on the site it looks like the vocal fold is somehow detached a bit from the cartridge. Is that correct? Am I correct in what I am seeing? Is a laser used on the vocal folds?
From pictures I have seen from Dr. Haban's work it looks like the mucosal layer is jagged and the sutures are a crisscross. The sutures are resolving. Also, the vocal fold and the area sutured is very red and looks sore. Also, the vocal fold looks sore. Does Dr. Haban use a laser on the vocal fold? Why is his work look like the area is very sore and jagged? Are Doctor Haban and Doctor kim's pictures both 1 week after surgery?
Dr. Spiegel, I have not seen any pictures of his post surgical work. He told me he performs the same procedure as Dr. Kim and Haban but that he has been doing it longer. I do not know if his work looks like Dr. Kim's or like Dr. Haban's 1 week after surgery. Does anyone here know anyone that has gone to Dr. Spiegel? Has anyone spoken to anyone that has gone to Dr. Spiegel for VFS? Are there any pictures of the work he does 1 week after surgery.
I can't comment on Dr. Siegel, but having had procedures done by Dr. Haben and Dr. Kim I can tell you the differences are enormous, almost to the point where they aren't even performing the same procedure. As you pointed out, Dr. Kim's work is done by hand after careful stroboscopic observation to create a unique shape that will allow the vocal folds to vibrate optimally. Dr. Haben on the other hand simply does not have the skill level to guarantee his surgery won't cause damage and freely admits that he "has no control over the way people heal." He scrambles together some sutures, fires off a laser and hopes for the best. He will also feed you different and conflicting information before and after in regards to the actual procedure and healing process. So, I wouldn't recommend going to Dr. Haben unless you're willing to risk losing your voice forever. Dr. Kim is infinitely more talented, more knowledgeable, more professional, and has a nearly unbeatable track record.
The observations are partly correct. Dr kim uses micro scalpels for a high precision cut of the vocal fold upper layer - I think he is the only one doing this, everyone else uses lasers, apparently. Lasers of course "burn" the upper layer, which may cause some issues, I suppose. Also Dr Kim seems to be the only one using permanent sutures. The reason for this is, that he can tighten them more than dissolving sutures because it is a different material, also I think it makes sense to have the sutures hold everything together for several weeks. We have seen some people loose their surgery result because sutures dissolved after 4 weeks and the scar was not yet formed - or there can be a widening of the scar when the sutures are not tight enough for long enough, this can cause a U shaped commissure instead of a V shaped one, which causes loss of volumen and adds breathiness.
Of course if the sutures are dissolving anyways, there is less need to make them as precise as Dr Kim does them, but I think it would not hurt to still at least try to make them perfect.
There is no detachment of the vocal folds with Dr Kim though.
One other thing Dr Kim does is a "tapered" suture - the two or three threads are not done the same way, the one near the end of the vocal fold is done much deeper into the tissue than the one near the commissure, which is done shallower. This is done to give the suture strength, but also delicacy, also it avoids formation of an air pocket under the flap that is created from the vocal chords, which again would cause breathiness and loss of volume
I've been studying and comparing results of the two surgeons for awhile now, including reading every post on this forum about either of them, seeing what >-bleeped-< has to say (Haben did a great AMA there awhile back), and just trying to be as objective as possible. It's been hours upon hours of research.
I definitely get the impression Dr. Haben's technique is evolving over time. In a post from a couple years ago when someone asked him how many of these he's done, he said 200+ VFS procedures - when Dr. Kim was starting to become known for this in 2011, he'd only done ~150. Keep in mind, both surgeons are about the same age, each with <15 years VFS experience. Yes Dr. Kim has been doing VFS longer, but we're getting close to Dr. Haben having as much iteration as Dr. Kim had when his work started taking this forum by storm 3-4 years ago.
The matter of microscalpel vs laser seems debatable. It really comes down to the amount of precision used with the laser and whether it's excising the exact same tissue layers as a microscalpel. If it does, I'd imagine laser to be slightly superior, since the cautery action would yield less blood loss. Most likely Dr. Haben uses laser because his initial "claim to fame" was treating laryngeal cancer patients using lasers. (If you've ever heard someone who had to use a robo-talker, or like Dr. Leis who had radiation treatment, you can appreciate the value of Dr. Haben's innovation.)
As far as suture technique, compare the example on his website http://professionalvoice.org/images/FIGURE%201-500.jpg (http://professionalvoice.org/images/FIGURE%201-500.jpg) to the technique used on a recent posterhttps://www.dropbox.com/sh/js9jtumq725it8b/AAABgeHOkLqXe8Jb_l2RpLLla?dl=0&preview=Before+and+After.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/js9jtumq725it8b/AAABgeHOkLqXe8Jb_l2RpLLla?dl=0&preview=Before+and+After.jpg) who ended up very happy with her outcome. Obviously each person's vocal folds would be a little different, but just looking at the photos, I notice a number of big differences. The newer suture material appears thinner, like it's more suited for precision work. Also, the placement of the sutures appears different - he places the long cross-suture high now, rather than across the other two. The two sutures near the 'new' commissure appear about as deep as the earlier example, but they have a new angle and placement, rather than just parallel horizontals.
Could Dr. Haben be adapting his suture technique? He did say in his >-bleeped-< AMA that he looks at every patient as an impetus to improve and is constantly evolving his technique. I cannot say without actually seeing immediately-post-op photos of Dr. Kim's suture work, but the "taper" principle could be working its way into the states. At the least, it looks like a night and day difference!
For my part, I'm likely booking with Dr. Haben soon. I think if you're within a day's drive from him, it's worth considering more than just raw experience - factors that could affect your healing and final outcome, like catching a cold on the plane, general travel fatigue, stress (or even risk) over N.Korea's recent saber-rattling, or just whether or not you have to go by yourself. (Two weeks overseas alone for surgery? Been there done that.) Besides, as word spreads that good VFS exists, we'll need more than one great doctor in South Korea doing it.
(I haven't really seen enough from Dr. Spiegel to feel confident in his VFS, or even that he's been doing it as long as he claims - small sample size includes one failed-but-not-botched result and one of questionable comparison - let alone to trust my voice to a general aesthetic surgeon rather than a voice specialist with proprietary surgical techniques.)
Welcome to Susan's Place OU812. I know that Dr Haben's procedure has evolved over the years has he as abandon some of the early procedures such as vocal cord thinning. He also had a few surgeries where the tie came lose so it's likely he has looked for a more durable suture material. On the plane home, I was in a conversation (well I was writing) with a resident who was flying out to meet her husband. She said that Dr Haben was very well known in the area. In addition the taxi driver that I used serviced the hotel regularly and he said people come in from all over the world with different problems for Dr Haben to deal with. Unfortunately all surgery carries risks but I suspect both doctor's procedures are evolving and will continue to get better.
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Thanks Dena! I've been crawling here for ages myself but never really had cause to post til now. I'll be sure to keep you updated with how things go.
If you look at my initial post, you will find that the reason I came to this site was for voice surgery. I knew a good deal before coming here but this site provided me the information I needed to decide on a surgeon. Let me know if there is anything I can help you with. By the way, when I wasn't looking they pinned this moderator badge on me so watch out. :icon_yikes:
Hello,
Does anyone know the type of laser used by Dr. Spiegel and Dr. Haban? I had a laser used on me for another procedure and a comment was made about my healing and that that surgeon some day will get CO2 laser. This was a side comment made quietly and not directed at me.
Quote from: Dena on August 18, 2017, 06:28:53 PM
By the way, when I wasn't looking they pinned this moderator badge on me so watch out. :icon_yikes:
Dena you are a great moderator so I guess they knew what they were doing. ;)
Paige :)
I personally am actually not so sure the cauterizing effect of the laser is beneficial when used on mucous tissue. The blood loss is minimal anways in a cut that is just a few millimeters long. I would be worried about the laser damaging the mucous tissue more by drying it out and maybe make it harder for the tissue to connect to each other? A very clean cut with a sharp blade will heal very well, if you ever cut your finger with a scalpel, you know ;)
But i am happy to hear that some surgeons are able to evolve and improve. Too man trans surgeons sort of are so convinced of themselves that they stop improving unless they have some good ideas themselves.
By the way - I recently found that after now over 2.5 years since my Yeson surgey, my voice seems to have cleared up even more than at the supposed "end of healing" point of one or 1.5 years post OP. Apparently I have still learned a bit on how to use it well and also "dare" to use the higher pitch ranges more regularly - so just reading the famous text, I got between 200 and 210 Hz - which is up from 170 Hz in the months post OP and about 180-190 Hz after 1-2 years. A lot of it depends on me being relaxed and feeling well though. If I feel "feminine" and more relaxed, the voice is up, if I am tired or sad , it may go down again to the 180 range. So this surgery is really something that takes forever to show final results and the voice keeps evolving over years...
I just want to give an update on my progress. It's been nearly 3 months since my surgery, and my average pitch is around 220Hz (pre-op pitch was around 145-150Hz). This is absolutely perfect for me and I'm extremely happy with my result. Remember not to freak out like I did! It can take time to hear the results, and the healing timeline and pitch increase timeline varies from person to person!
I am a long time reader of this thread and felt it was time to share my experience and see if anyone had some advice. I had vocal feminisation surgery with Yeson one month and roughly one week ago. I had the surgery and everything went well, Dr Kim told me at the one week check up everything was healing fine and a few of weeks into recovery I had said a couple of words. Just to kind of test the waters and maybe see how my new voice would sound! When I did, my voice sounded the same pitch, a little hoarse but I was very disappointed, I emailed Jessie and she said to wait and see how things go, so I did. About a week ago I was able to have short conversation and my voice sounds the exact same as before the surgery, just strained and a little rough? From everyone else posting on these threads I haven't heard of anyone with the same experience, most of the time the pitch increase is almost right after surgery! My voice pre surgery was 135hz and I measured it today at 110hz. Has anyone else seen a pitch increase this long after surgery, I am very disappointed and think it was a failed surgery for me.
Welcome to Susan's Place. It's very difficult for Yeson's surgery to fail without a visible sign like pain or bleeding. I suspect two possible problems. The first is for some of us the swelling can go on for months after surgery resulting in a low bad sounding voice. My surgery wasn't with Yeson but the swelling went nearly 7 months and some have gone even longer. The second is you may not be using your voice properly. Often to obtain the proper resonance, the voice is adjusted to use the head voice. My chest voice after surgery is about 135HZ and my head voice is around 220HZ. Comparing that to my pre surgical head voice of about 130HZ. I asked before surgery which voice I would need to use after surgery and the answer was my head voice so there was no surprise. This is why I often say a surgical voice is half surgery and half speech therapy.
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Yes thats why I am concerned, I have heard of girls getting the surgery and only increasing a small amount in pitch but I still haven't noticed any changes in pitch. One thing that has changed is that my voice use to come from my chest and I could feel it rumble however now it comes from a much high place, like head voice. Maybe its due to the fact that I hadn't done much/any vocal training beforehand, I haven't had much chance to play with pitch or anything as I don't want to strain my vocal cords too much. Kind of disappointing but there isn't much I can do at the moment!
Hi
I've been trying to change ny male sounding voice for what seems like a really long time. I really hate my voice and feel that it's certainly one if the reasons why I'm not passing.
I've read some of the posts and they seem to suggest age has a factor in the result. I'm 44 and I'm wondering if I've left it too late. I healed very well when i haf my FFS.
Thank you
Shannon
Welcome to Susan's Place Shannon. I had voice surgery at 63 years old and healing wasn't an issue. Age might affect the surgery somewhat but the biggest issue is smoking. Dr Haben combines CTA with fold shorting for voice that are really low and damaged by smoking. I expect that Dr Yeson could produce similar results given the same voice because both doctors use procedures that produce similar results.
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Hi Dena
Thanks for the replay I've been lurking for a long but this is the first time I though I wanted to say something.
My transition has certainly has had its ups and downs, I told my mum that I was a women when I was 37 and by 41 I had lost her to Cancer. She was my best friend and for years I thought that she would leave me if I had told her. But she accepted with out hesitation or question I only wish I could say the same thing about the rest of my so called family.
So I find myself on this journey without the support of my mum which makes everything seem harder.
Well I don't smoke so that's a good thing, some of my friends keep telling me that voice surgery is to dangerous and I might get a dalek voice or something. Do you think its a dangerous surgery.
This isn't going to be my next surgery I'm book in with Dr Suporn on the 4th July :)
Thanks
Shannon
There is an element of risk with voice surgery and we have some fails on this site. It's possible for a voice to end up low or it could over heal resulting in a voice that sounds false. The tie can let lose or the cords may not join. I recommend that people see a speech therapist first and learn everything they can about their voice before considering surgery. Make the decision for surgery only if there is something that can't be addressed without surgery and you feel the risk of a failed surgery is reasonable. By knowing your voice and what to expect, you will be able to determine if the doctor is presenting a good solution to your problem. In my case, I knew pretty much what I needed and had a rough idea what the doctor could deliver. The doctor promised less than I hoped for but it was the best deal in town. In the end, the surgery turned out better than expected so I am happy.
If you have the money, you could book voice surgery before Suporn however if it's one or the other, Suporn might be the best to have first.
Hi Dena
I've done allot of voice therapy never quite managed to get it there, so thats why I was thinking of the surgery. At the moment I cant afford to do both. I might be able to do so in the new year if plans work out, I heard though that due to the changing of the voice box that when they ventilate for surgery then it could damage the surgery site. Thats why I was thinking of doing it last,is that true?
Thanks
Shannon
We are not sure of how much of a risk there is but because the vocal folds are joined together, inserting the airway might rip them apart if excessive force is applied. I think your surgeon is aware of the risk but if you have voice surgery, you should inform them of the fact before surgery. There is also discussion of using a #6 airway which is the smallest one in order to ensure it passes past the cords without causing damage. Some people put a warning in their wallet so it will be seen if they are unable to respond before an airway is inserted.
Dr Suporn's anesthetist has experience with women who have been to Yeson. It's mentioned in that pdf on Suporn.
Personally I'd ask the surgeon about it if I were considering voice first.
I think I'll probably wait till I get voice surgery and do it as one of the last surgeries just to be on the safe side
Regarding the restrictions in future surgeries - yes there is a risk of vocal damage if the intubation is done improperly. A smaller diameter tube than usual should be used, ideally it should be inserted and extracted carefully with an endoscopic camera. For emergency intubations, this may not be possible, but I carry around a plastic card describing the issue in the hope that it would help in such a situation. For planned surgeries it is easier to keep to these rules. It still was helpful for me to have the emergency card to show local surgeons who did not know a thing about VFS and are prone to "know better" , so it helped to show them a neatly designed plastic card instead of just telling.
I know some trans surgeons now know about the VFS done by Dr Kim - specifically Suporn Team and FacialTeam are in close contact with Dr Kim and so they know how to do this properly. I think others know by now as well.
Regarding the lack of pitch increase after 4 weeks or less - this is quite normal. Consider the time until week 8 to be like having "surgical laryngitis". If you have a laryngitis, the pitch drops into the bottom and this basically is the same because of swelling and sore muscles. After some time, it should get better, but one will have to adapt to the new voice in order to make best use of it and actually be able to use the pitch increase. The Yeson exercises help. but its easy to do them wrong. Also if the vocal tremor or muscle spasms return after Botox wears off, it may impact the voice and pitch. Its a bit of a harder surgery than lets say FFS - FFS is hard, you have to be patient to see the final results, but basically all you have to do is wait. With VFS, you have to be patient, wait, but also be active and train and have the brain learn how to use the new voice... and not always does this work fast, easy or in some cases it seems to take forever.
The brain is "used" to expect a lower voice and identifies it as the normal voice and also as a pitch that is not straining the voice, so it tries to use thet pitch again. Post op that pitch is in the lower vocal range. Its still accessible - I can still produce a broken 120 Hz voice - but its straining the voice. Still, the brain does not know this right away and tries to go there out of "tradition" - one has to listen to the feedback and somehow tell the brain that things have changed and now the optimal pitch is a different one, find it and use it. Its pretty complicated and sadly there are no voice therapists trained to help and there is no instruction manual for it.
Hello girls,
I'm Vanessa, I'm 36 years old. Since the beginning of my transition, in 2013, I've always followed this forum, I followed Jenny's topic, I read this whole topic, but it's the first time I post.
I had my surgery at Yeson on June 1, 20 days ago.
Dr. Kim told me that he also corrected an asymmetry and that some parameters were abnormal, such as the pressure and the amount of air I use to speak.
In the first week, I coughed a couple of times but I think it was normal, I tried not to make sounds. But I think I made a mistake: visiting a palace, while I took photos, I ran into a person and automatically said "I'm sorry" but without voicing, just coming out of the air. I hope it does not worsen the result.
On June 6, late afternoon, I went to Yeson for the follow-up and botox injection, Dr. Kim did an endoscopy and said that everything was fine (he always said that everything was fine, both good and bad results >:-)).
Here is the photo I received in the follow-up. On top the "before". Below, on the left the day of surgery, on the right the day of the follow-up:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/qy90165w21ncnrt/Before-After-1d-6d.jpg?raw=1)
I did not ask how much he sutured, looks a little more than 1/3, but less than 1/2.
I returned to Brazil and since then I used my emergency words only once on June 18th. I was sleeping, the friend who lives with me came into my room to look for something and, unintentionally, I spoke three words to her. No pitch increase. (okay, I read on the topics that no changes in the first month is normal even in the best results).
I'm trying to be patient to spend the next 9 days without talking. I worry that in the last 3 days I have sneezed a few times (it had not happened before), and it is difficult for me not to emit sound in these cases, a little bit always leaves.
Well, that's it for now. I do not know yet how my result will be but, being good or not, I think I should share here, since those who shared before helped me to make my decision.
And sorry about my English, this isn't my first language ;)
Thank you Vanessa for sharing your experience, I wish you good luck with the recovery!
What is the wait time nowadays for a surgery with Dr. Kim? Let's say I would contact him in the near future, would I be able to get the surgery this year?
Quote from: Lynne on June 28, 2018, 03:35:23 PM
Thank you Vanessa for sharing your experience, I wish you good luck with the recovery!
Thank you, fingers crossed! :)
Quote from: Lynne on June 28, 2018, 03:35:23 PM
What is the wait time nowadays for a surgery with Dr. Kim? Let's say I would contact him in the near future, would I be able to get the surgery this year?
They do not schedule for more than 3 or 4 months in the future, so surely you could do this year.
Even if you want a date closer, they should have. I changed the date of my surgery with about 6 weeks in advance and I had no book problems.
Quote from: Vanessa Lopes on June 28, 2018, 04:57:05 PM
Thank you, fingers crossed! :)
They do not schedule for more than 3 or 4 months in the future, so surely you could do this year.
Even if you want a date closer, they should have. I changed the date of my surgery with about 6 weeks in advance and I had no book problems.
Thanks for the quick response :) I can imagine how hard it is to not make a sound for that long. I think that would be the hardest part for me. In a few days your voice rest will be over and I'm eagerly waiting to hear the results :)
3-4 months doesn't sound too bad. I'm seriously considering spending money on this soon if my other planned purchases fall through. I feel that having a better voice would have the biggest impact on my life for the amount of money the surgery costs.
This week has completed 1 month and I could start talking.
I said two sentences (still difficult) and it still sounds masculine.
I think it´s around 170hz:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/6c5ydgvwymsr65a/2018-07-01%20-%20Voice%20Freq.png?raw=1)
I hope it sounds more feminine and that frequency increases in the coming months.
Wow! I had no idea VFS was so involved. I haven't look into it yet myself. I am going to try therapy first. I start next week. I've herd there are several types of surgery and was wondering which one was the most popular and successful? If the therapy doesn't help, I will do the research online as well but I was also curious about the cost? My insurance does not cover this, at least at this time. Thangs are always changing. Perhaps in the future, even breast augmentation surgery will be covered?
Hello girls
To update, 1 month and 27 days ago I had my surgery. My voice has been improving a bit since my last post, but it always gets hoarse at night. Does anyone know if this is normal?
Just speaking the Rainbow Passage, with no effort, Praat measures 182 hz, which is below my initial expectation.
Making a little effort, the average jumps to 213. In my best recording the average was 222, which is fine, but I wish I did not have to make an effort. Anyway, it's very cool and it makes me easy to know that I can talk on these frequencies if I need to.
My resonance is not good, it sounds masculine, but with that technique of putting the larynx up and back, it improves. But I just started doing this, I still have to train a lot.
I'm looking forward to starting Yeson's exercises next week, so I'm hoping they will help improve both resonance and frequency.
I would imagine the hoarseness will dissipate as you get accustomed to your new voice and continue to heal. Did your doctors tell you want to expect as far as recovery times?
Quote from: Donica on July 09, 2018, 08:11:40 AM
Wow! I had no idea VFS was so involved. I haven't look into it yet myself. I am going to try therapy first. I start next week. I've herd there are several types of surgery and was wondering which one was the most popular and successful? If the therapy doesn't help, I will do the research online as well but I was also curious about the cost? My insurance does not cover this, at least at this time. Thangs are always changing. Perhaps in the future, even breast augmentation surgery will be covered?
Voice therapy is usually the first step, and I think it is necessary.
The technique that has the best results, from what I could see, is Glotoplasty, especially a variant called VFSRAC made by Yeson's Clinic (Dr. Kim) in South Korea, which was where I and others who previously commented on this topic did .
The cost is $ 7380 (USD) + $ 400 for some botox injections (80% of patients need these injections).
Good luck with your vocal therapy!
Quote from: LexieDragon on July 27, 2018, 12:34:18 PM
I would imagine the hoarseness will dissipate as you get accustomed to your new voice and continue to heal. Did your doctors tell you want to expect as far as recovery times?
I also hope!
Dr. Kim told me not to worry about how my voice would sound in the first 2 months. But it's only 3 days left to finish this period.
After that, I need to do a list of exercises that they indicated, 5 times a day, but my voice is good only during the day. It will be difficult to do all this exercises. (it's about 2 hours of exercises per day in total, I think)
If you are concerned give the doc a call. Better safe than sorry. 😁
A rough voice is to be expected and it's more likely that soon after surgery. There are two things you can do to minimize it. The first is don't let yourself become dehydrated. Keep water around and sip some regularly. The other is watch your voice volume. My mom's air conditioner is loud and in the kitchen. We played cards last weekend and in order to be heard over the blower, I pushed my voice to the rough stage. The drive home and some more water and in a couple of hours, my voice was clear for a long Skype session.
Each patient may have different results and recovery pattern, but when I had VFS in March (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,234768.0.html)Dr. Kim made the following sketch showing my expected recovery rate:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/6wgfe14qz2ex329/Screenshot%202018-05-02%2008.02.55.png?raw=1)