Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I was thinking back on a book I'd read a number of years ago by Louise Erdrich called The Last Report on the Miracles at Little No Horse. It centered around a transgender man living on the frontier (though that particular vocabulary, of course, was not used). It made me wonder whether I'd have transitioned if I were living in a time where there were no Trans* support groups, no Susan's Place (or Internet at all) to pick up passing tips, and no role model to prove that it was even possible.

I don't think I would. It didn't occur to me I could transition until I started hanging around with other transwomen and saw how they did it.

How about you?

Pfft! I didn't even know there was such a thing except for Christine Jorgensen and Renée Richards until long after we had the internet. Without the 'Net I probably wouldn't ever have applied it to me. I would have just stayed unhappy, clueless and stubborn.

Probably not. The big thing is I likely wouldn't even know it was possible and even then, couldn't medically transition and without that, it wouldn't be worth it to me.

I would have likely died as a child if it weren't for antibiotics, but I'll bet they would have at least castrated me at age 12 due to the testicular abnormalities that were causing me extreme pain.

In cases like mine, I'm not sure they would have bothered the trouble of raising me at all. Certainly the surgical abilities we have had in more recent time didn't exist then. So likely transitioning would have been out as a result. If someone those things were not an issue I would probably say I wouldn't have because I wouldn't have known I could.
Mariah

i dont know if i would of or not. its up in the area

Well, considering all of the medical problems that I had. I would have died as an infant had I been born in those times. So, transitioning would have never even come up. Hell, even though I was born in the late 70's, there was no guarantee that I would have lived past six months of age. (and living to 18 was a long shot)

Nope. I'm pretty sure it wasn't a thing in most places back then, and without medical transition, there is not much point for me. I'd just be stuck miserable my whole life.

Quote from: Dee Marshall on May 12, 2015, 07:33:10 PM
Pfft! I didn't even know there was such a thing except for Christine Jorgensen and Renée Richards until long after we had the internet. Without the 'Net I probably wouldn't ever have applied it to me. I would have just stayed unhappy, clueless and stubborn.

I must have been about 10 years old when George became Christine. I only heard about it one time on the TV but I don't if it was a news broadcast or other program. My parents would never have allowed me to pretend being a girl or even openly consider the possibility of becoming a girl.

Quote from: mac1 on May 12, 2015, 09:45:30 PM
I must have been about 10 years old when George became Christine. I only heard about it one time on the TV but I don't if it was a news broadcast or other program.

I only heard about it second hand in news reports about Renée Richards. Those are literally the only examples I had at that time and no one made any significant effort to differentiate them from cross dressers or drag queens except that both had SRS. The rest of the things we know of, hormones, etc.? Not reported. They were men who "wanted" to be women, not physical men who were mentally women according to what the papers told us. If Bruce Jenner had gone through with it the first time the world would be very different, or perhaps it wouldn't.

Absolutely.  Medicine doesn't make the man or the woman at all.  I'd transition socially regardless of when.

Quote from: Mariah2014 on May 12, 2015, 07:46:33 PM
In cases like mine, I'm not sure they would have bothered the trouble of raising me at all. Certainly the surgical abilities we have had in more recent time didn't exist then. So likely transitioning would have been out as a result. If someone those things were not an issue I would probably say I wouldn't have because I wouldn't have known I could.
Mariah

Can't agree more. I'm a history buff and one thing I can tell is the harsh truth. In many cases, even CIS babies were killed since they were perceived and weak an unable to contribute to the family. Any sign of an effeminate nature in a boy likely wound up in being ostracized from the community. In eastern Europe, it would likely wind up in castration, making the person a eunuch. Of course, many CIS women were raised, but the romanticized image we have of life back then is a fiction. Imagine a cold stone hole in the wall as your toilet. (and this convenience was only for the elite) Walking in mud mixed of dirt horse urine and feces as well as the urine and feces dumped on the path by your neighbors, imagine the state of your shoes- if you were fortunate enough to have shoes. Potatoes for dinner? how about EVERY meal? That was basically the only plant that would endure the conditions to a point of being edible. Medicine? what medicine?
Now if we go back just 200 years..sure, things were better. But you still walked in that mud, and there was still no reliable medicine. Ever had a sore tooth pulled with a pair of dirty pliers...and no Novocaine?

we are truly blessed. Even if we go back a few decades, (my youth) breast implants were a dangerous experiment, and there was no HRT unless you were wealthy enough...and brave enough to do it.

I think I would have gone for whatever gender variant behavior was acceptable. Like in medieval Europe I might have gone eunuch. In the Victorian era there were so many corsets and bustles and layers that it might have worked. Or more likely I would not have survived much past my teens.

Good question....

Back then we would not have all been in communication, would that have relieved pressure?

Also tolerance was a lot different then, I guess it would depend on pain and acceptance levels...

L Katy

The concept of "transition" is a fairly recent one, so it doesn't really apply to what gender-variant people may have done in the past. That said, it was fairly common in Western cultures for people, especially gender-variant women, to "live as the opposite sex."  That would have been me. I only survived as long as I did without transitioning because the range of acceptable gender roles is wider in my lifetime than it's ever been. If I had been born a couple of hundred years ago, or earlier, there is no way I could have lived as a woman, given the available choices: neither motherhood nor nunnery would have been an option for me.

I'm quite certain that I would have ended up living as a man, in complete stealth. It's the only way I would have been able to survive.

I had to choose 'I don't know' as I would have more than likely died from complications due to appendicitis at fifteen if my life was to follow the same track.

Hmm. Interesting. I should have offered poll responses differentiated based on gender. Among the people who posted, all guys said "certainly" whereas the others didn't think so.

I wonder why.

I think I might have, depending on what culture I'd live in, pre-imperialist times, and still in many cultures, gender has not been so binary and inflexible as it is now, same with discrimination. A lot of native american cultures, in a lot of indian cultures, african cultures, there's been different genders.. I think if I lived in such a culture I probably would be able to realise that I would belong in the group of the more flexible kind of people - and if in theory it was possible - transition.

Quote from: suzifrommdAmong the people who posted, all guys said "certainly" whereas the others didn't think so.

I wonder why.

A person doesn't have to know much history to be aware that before the past 100 years or so (if that), women's lives basically sucked unless they were members of the upper classes, and weren't all that much fun even then. Even ordinary men had a lot more options than women.

Quote from: Tysilio on May 14, 2015, 08:34:08 PM
A person doesn't have to know much history to be aware that before the past 100 years or so (if that), women's lives basically sucked unless they were members of the upper classes, and weren't all that much fun even then. Even ordinary men had a lot more options than women.

^Also, there remains much more social pressure, even within the transgender community, for women to modify their bodies, whereas men *can* "get away" with just binding.

I 'transitioned' in 1974, at the age of 24, and it was hard enough back then. I had been suicidal for years before that because I didn't know of ANY alternatives except for the Native culture but there weren't any traditional Native cultures left intact. The only alternative would have been to move to 'the frontier' and live alone 'in my own way'.

I probably wouldn't have survived. :(

It would depend on the culture I lived in; if I was born into Native American society, then yes, since they were presumed to be accepting of "two-spirit" people. If I was born into a Puritan family during the 17th century, I would probably be less inclined to transition, especially if I lived in Salem, MA between 1692 and 1693.  ;D

As a Native North American with roots in the Caddo Nation, I believe that I almost certainly would have "transitioned" in one form or another.  Gender variant individuals among the Caddo were tolerated and given socially accepted roles before the nation was eradicated.  I almost certainly would have gravitated towards healthy self-expression within the limitations of the gender cards I was dealt, just as I did in the 20th century.

Come to think of it, my parents have always been very accepting of my gender variant nature.  I wonder if their acceptance of me as a transgender woman could be a cultural echo of those distant Caddo values.  There's food for thought.

I answered "probably not" because I almost certainly would not have known being nonbinary was a possibility, so I'm sure I would've just lived my life assuming my female body makes me a girl.

I answered Probably not.

I imagine if I were born at least 100 years ago I would have been deeply hiding all of my symptoms. If I were catholic, I probably would have joined a monastery and tried to be secluded and purge those horrible thoughts that made me unworthy. As a protestant, I am not sure but still would have felt (as I had till not too long ago) that I was wrong, unworthy and full of guilt. I don't know if I would have been able to mentally survive. However, like others have pointed out, I don't know that I would have realized it was an option to transition or at least just assume the role of the other sex. I think it would just have been seen as odd or evil. This is all assuming that my heritage was generally the same(western European).

Joanna

I don't think I would have really had a choice. I am who I am.

I would have transitioned if I would have been born native American. If born Asian,Egyptian, I would be a eunuch and live as a woman as I would gladly have them cut it off.

And like the movie I saw my name would probably been Women's Dress

When found out, my parents would have tested me by putting me in a temporary lodge and set in on fire. While racing out, I would pick up the clay basket and ignore the bow and arrow.My Grandmother and Mother would then take me to a stream. Then bathe me and put a dress on me where I would forever be living as a woman.

If born among europeans, I would've most likely been an alcoholic celibate blacksmith. So......um.....I'm going to have a cigarette and stare at an anvil while I think about that.

I wasn't aware there was an option, thought it was straight or gay, until 15 years ago. Also females were treated terribly when brute strength reigned supreme. We've  come a long way.

Funny, but this question stuck with me. After thinking about it more, I might've joined a theater troupe or circus freak show. These were both traditionally places where cross-gender individuals were able to blend in and be somewhat accepted. In the early twentieth century, some circus performers were actually able to make pretty good money. I kind of enjoy the ambiance anyway.

If no one's heard of them already you should look up the Chevalier d'Eon and Anne "Gentleman Jack" Lister, Heliogabalus, Herculine Barbin* and Dr James Barry

These (plus a load of transgender saints...) are just a few i can think of off the top of my head. There's loads of others if you google trans history... I find it really interesting

Sorry if it's a bit off topic :P

*who was intersex and /forced/ to change from female to male, rather than electing to

Quote from: Mara on May 12, 2015, 07:51:50 PM
Nope. I'm pretty sure it wasn't a thing in most places back then, and without medical transition, there is not much point for me. I'd just be stuck miserable my whole life.

Actually, you could have probably still gotten rid of your testicles back then.

I myself didn't transition yet but plan to transition to some extent in the future. That said, though, in response to this question: Probably not, due to the lack of hormone replacement therapy back then and due to my own ignorance in such a scenario. :(

I just barely found out about it and accepted it in this far more progressive century. How would I have figured this out hundreds of years ago? I don't want to sound macabre, but I probably would have followed my depression to its end in an earlier time like I almost did even now with today's resources.

I sometimes think in some ways it would be easier... people used to wear very structured clothing, for example, and lots of layers and never being seen naked was p. common. Plus no digital footprint, no databases, people didn't travel much so you could have a whole new life just by going to a different city...

Unless you were a serf and not allowed to leave.


Sapere Aude

I think so. I'm an outsider in life anyway, I can't help being that way, and not living for the usual reasons. If I was myself born in another time, I still think I'd be the same and avoid social expectations just like I have in this time. If I was forced to have a child I'd probably have done something to myself to prevent it or destroy myself, or would have just left it once born. That's how I am... there are some things I'm just not meant to do and can't bring myself to do. I would probably have lived a short, miserable life.

I had to go with "probably not." 

Given my ancestry, I'd almost certainly have been murdered by the church as a heretic for huge stretches of history.  Considering average life expectancy, I'd also have been dead from something unrelated before it became too much to deal with. 

If I had lived with my Native ancestors, then chances are that society would let me transition. But in other societies hundreds of years ago, people who were assigned female at birth lived very limiting lives. I'm not sure if any transgender and non-binary individuals back then were able to live the lives they wanted to. There's a good chance that cishet guys back then would severely beat or murder anybody that didn't conform to gender roles and gender "norms".

I'm genuinely not sure about this. If there were no trans support groups and no place I can talk things out and read on trans experiences, I think I would have a) taken much, much longer to become more self aware of being a trans guy and b) might not have become self aware at all. If I lived hundreds of years ago I doubt that I would have been completely oblivious to my dysphoria and desire for a male body and to live as male, but I think I might have lacked the resources to connect the dots + understand what that meant, and then move forward practically to transition. It might have also been too dangerous.

It would depend on the context and where I lived + who I was hundreds of years ago I think.

I should have transitioned 60 years ago.

It wouldn't have been scientifically/medically possible to transition hundreds of years ago to begin with.
There were no options to repair a body this way.

Hence I would probably have been miserable and disgusted by that body my whole life.
Or would have been killed off by someone earlier simply for not fitting that loathsome body I'm stuck in at all.
It was a different time and someone who didn't have the mindset and talents that were expected from how they were seen wouldn't have been tolerated and would have faced negative repercussions and severe punishments in a society like that one extreme way or the other.

It is also most likely that I would have never understood what it is that I am experiencing anyway. I would have still experienced it but wouldn't have known being transsexual was a thing and therefore also wouldn't have known which particular steps to take to leave that suffering behind.

That's a hard question. There was no hrt or SRS back then. I probably would have tried to transition as much as possible. But it would have been a totally miserable life. That's if I lived at all. I might have been burned at the stake or stoned or something depending on what they did to people they considered to be like deviants.  Hmmm now that I think about it they would probably have thought an albino baby was evil or a witch baby  and killed me at birth. I'm totally glad I don't live back then.

My feeling is transition isn't based on surgery or HRT. It's about living a new life.
There are many trans women who, for medical reasons cannot go on hormones nor have surgery. Yet, they still live full time.

My therapist asked me the question about hormones first session, and would I transition as Nina if my blood tests said I couldn't be on hormones? I said hell yes. Hormones, I said, do not make me a woman. I am a woman! Period.

Without HRT it would be impossible for me to be a convincing male. Surgery would probably have been a death sentence 100-200 years ago too.

I'd probably have just remained some unmarried black sheep spinster type if I made it to old age or died young doing something stupid or from TB or something like that. The difference between the sexes is too great for some of us to even hope to pass for the opposite without modern medicine.

I would transition as far as I could. Maybe I'd live like I've done all my life, dressed in male cloths. I did not have a name for this until 10 years ago thanks to internet. I feel like I've been living under a rock. I thought I was to live in the wrong body form the rest of my life. But now I know better.


Tony

I don't know if hundred years ago, but thousands probably. In ancient times there were cultures that didn't persecute trans people. Quite the opposite. Having both, male and female characteristics, being ambiguous, was a trait of the gods, like in hindu deities or most creator gods. That's why "trans" people were considered to be closer to divinity than most cis people. They were respected and powerful, high ranking spiritual positions were reserved for trans only. The Sumerian were know for having trans high priests and priestess. Also in ancient north american cultures, two-spirits were usually chamans and spiritual leaders.

Asia wouldn't have been a bad place for trans either. Traditionally, Japanese women used their kimono's belt to flatten the chest and straighten the curves, giving a more male silhouette. The male beauty standard was in contrast, feminine. It was a common thing, specially among young men and nobles, to feminize their appearance and adopt female beauty habits like makeup. Also, there were a few, not many, but a few, people that adopted the opposite gender's dress codes. They weren't discriminated nor hanged. The only trouble were the extremely rigid gender roles. Uesugi Kenshin, one of Japan's most famous daimyou, is believed to have been a woman.

"Transition" would be partially possible. You'd have to take spearmint extract for example instead of synthetic hormones, but I dare to say that natural variations prepared in ancient times would have been as effective as modern HRT, or even more.

In ancient times some of us could have been powerful spiritual leaders, instead we are normal people fighting for basic human rights. Modernity sucks...

Hm. I think I'll take modernity rather than the rampant disease and backbreaking work that killed most people before they reached their fiftes. I could become a spiritual leader online these days if I wanted, probably... and enjoy the benefits of strong hormone therapy and modern hygiene (a personal favorite. I really don't fancy living without soap and deodorant).

There were actual female samurai. They were typically employed during the eras in which laws restricted the travel of Japanese peasants and subjected them to border checks in different regions. The female samurai would do the security checks on women travellers. They dressed in the same armor and carried swords and were subject to the same expectations of loyalty and sacrifice.

Definitely not.
Depending on the era I'd have been stoned to death or be socially outcast.
Actually, I'd have those things done regardless of me being trans, I've always had an interest in medicine and guaranteed I'd have been considered a witch for trying to find a herbal remedy for an ailment.
I'd be dead by childhood anyway.The weak rarely survived in those days and my immune system is pathetic.

Honestly every angle I look at it, the past was bad and I do not want to live there.

Even before I came out to myself I remember thinking that if I lived in the past I would have wound up as a eunuch monk or something. Does that count?

Quote from: Corax on September 21, 2017, 04:30:34 PM
It wouldn't have been scientifically/medically possible to transition hundreds of years ago to begin with.
There were no options to repair a body this way.

    That all depends on what culture you are referring to. Two in particular revered people that identified as transgender, though predominately only male to female. Both ancient Egyptian and most Native American tribes viewed them as gifted, knowing what it is like to grow up male but blessed with the intuition and emotions of a female. They even had ways to assist allowing that person to live as close as possible to being female. Priestesses of Hecate were often born male, but voluntarily made into eunuchs (no genitalia) and used plant based estrogens to achieve a more feminine appearance. They were completely accepted in society. It's a shame modern day Egypt seems to be going to the other extreme. It was much the same for Native Americans, though they were merely castrated (testicles removed) at their own will. They also used plant based estrogens and T blockers. Both societies allowed people to transition around the onset of puberty, allowing those homeopathic medicines to be more effective. I myself am registered as Native American and borrowed some of these techniques until I was approved for HRT. True a full post operative transition that we know of today wasn't possible, but you could get pretty close.

Quote from: JennyBear on October 23, 2017, 11:54:51 PM
That all depends on what culture you are referring to.

I referred to European culture because I am European and would have been born in Europe. And Europe hundreds of years ago was already infected by Christianity which viewed transsexuals as well as homosexuals as abominations and called for their deaths. There also weren't any such methods available here but they had to offer the inquisition and witch hunts instead....

It's still really interesting though.
I knew that there were some cultures that accepted and even valued transwomen and also people they called thridgender people but I wasn't aware of them using homeopathy to alter the body, even though they weren't able to reconstruct genitalia and perform other surgeries, that is a great thing.

Quote
It's a shame modern day Egypt seems to be going to the other extreme.

Islam can be blamed for that. Religious ideologies have always thrown the societies they have infected back and gotten into the way of scientific and social progress.

Most likely not, simply cause I'm only into men and can't imagine living celibate, and the view on homosexuality centuries ago wasn't exactly bright. However I've never wanted kids or ever wished to settle, so marriage and being a housewife wouldn't have been an option for me. I probably would have lived as an alcoholised, drug-addicted prostitute or something along those lines.

Living as a gay trans man that long ago would probably have been worse both socially and mentally than living as straight cis woman who's horribly dysphoric. I wouldn't have been able to take hrt or have surgery back then, so then what's the point. My body was the issue, not how others perceived it, before my transition. I would likely have been miserable either way, so no, I probably wouldn't have made a social transition if I had lived that long ago.

It's not certain I would have even figured out I'm trans at all, actually. I probably would have thought it was just me being cranky, disliking my body and having "weird fantasies" or something that wouldn't have been able to pin-point.

I've never had any serious physical health issues and have a very strong immune system, rarely ever even get a cold, so on that point I likely would have survived just fine even in the mud of some rat-infested hut back in medieval times. Maybe even survived the plague. However, considering all of my mental health issues including dysphoria... yeah I see some problems with survival in a more primitive society, whether rich or poor. But with drugs and alcohol having been around in the world since many centuries ago, and my strong immune system, I think I would have survived at least up until my current age, and likely longer. But it wouldn't have been a happy life, by far.

I voted no way would I come out a hundred year ago. I used to be an Alpha male and assume 100 years ago I would also have been an Alpha. The difference between men and women privilages,  now and then, cannot be comparedd . Women 100 uears ago were chattlels of men, today Alpha fenales can match the men. I am now an Alpha female and love to watch the men squirm.

Probably yes... I would've gotten an orchi (somehow, someway) and maybe tried herbal estrogens or something off the black martket lol
I think I'd be pretty successful at it
Ok I think I'm just entertaining myself here haha

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Fully transition, no way because of medical advances that are going on now. As for secretly wearing a skirt or dress maybe.

I love the story of "Orlando" by Virginia Wolf....it fascinates me....

Absolutely!

Depends the culture and society where I would be living. In some cultures transpeople were more than accepted, valued members of the society. Absolutely I would transition in a culture like that. No question about it. Just like today there are still cultures and societies where transpeople are more accepted and it would be easier in those places.