So now that we have our new section about Expression, Appearance and Style I think it would be good for us to define and explain the differences between this area, and the "Androgyne talk" section it's housed in.
It's rather simple really. As with any other identity, the androgyn identity is how you feel about yourself inside. The outside may or may not reflect that.
Expression is all about what's on the outside.
When it comes to androgynous expression we can muddle the waters a little. We have different groups of people who might come to androgynous expression for very different reasons.
The first group would be those who experience the androgyne identity and desire to have their outsides match their insides. (though let's be clear on that...not all feel the need/desire. Which is perfectly fine!)
There are MtF's or FtM's who embark on their journey and pass through an androgynous appearance on their way to expressing in a more congruent fashion.
Then there are those who express themselves androgynously but it's not tied to any one identity but it's an expression of fashion statement.
Any of these groups may come here to discuss Expression, appearance and/or style. :)
I'd love to see a discussion on this if appropriate/desired. :)
Great post, Sevan.
I wouldn't mind seeing a discussion, but I'm not quite sure what a discussion on this would entail. Perhaps those of us who choose to adopt an androgynous presentation explaining why we choose to present the way we do? Or is that fodder for another thread?
Quote from: Julian on October 02, 2011, 10:53:08 AM
Great post, Sevan.
I wouldn't mind seeing a discussion, but I'm not quite sure what a discussion on this would entail. Perhaps those of us who choose to adopt an androgynous presentation explaining why we choose to present the way we do? Or is that fodder for another thread?
Hmm I think that might make a great new thread!
I wasn't sure if there was much need of discussing the differences between identity and expression but I always wnqt to leave it open. :)
Just remember that androgynous is an expression of appearance.
You can look androgynous and not be Androgyn
You can be Androgyn and not look androgynous
If You are Androgyn and look androgynous, you don't.
You then look androgyn. Which can have a look of androgynous, but it isn't.
Ativan
This may not be important to others, but for me it is...
Presentation is your public face. Expression is an outward sign of an internal truth.
There's a lot of overlap.
Presentation is what hits other peoples' senses. Expression is sort of the why and how of it, and doesn't have to be understood by anyone else, or even oneself.
I don't even know if I'm making sense. I just know that it was expression that the not-male part of me was crying out for, but I feel I present as male.
Presentation always strikes me as part of 'presenting'. That there is a slight performative aspect to it that is not the internal truth of identity. It just feels a little fake to me.
Quote from: Pica Pica on October 12, 2011, 04:17:25 PM
Presentation always strikes me as part of 'presenting'. That there is a slight performative aspect to it that is not the internal truth of identity. It just feels a little fake to me.
That's true, however it's true for all adults in this world. Part of human psychology which itself is multi faceted. Is presentation the mask as Jung would have it or is it merely controlled by other elements: subconscious, super ego, ego, id and all the rest?
Some of us are just mask and fake to the core, Tony Blair being an obvious example. He can't even hide his falsity, it's embarrassing.
for ome people the way they present is very important to them.
within the binary trans world there is a lot of talk on "Passing." and that non passing trans people are "bad for the community".
for androgynes some of us need to express our inner selves others of us need to pass as the opposite of our birth assigned gender.
or to just be seen as who we know ourselves to be.
I need to be seen as "not normal gender" so I have a "possitive androgonous appearence" seen by many as "gender >-bleeped-<". I do It to present as who I am. I don't do It for the shock value, I don't do it to be confusing. I do It because I can no longer Hide who I am.
Quote from: foosnark on October 12, 2011, 11:09:34 AM
This may not be important to others, but for me it is...
Presentation is your public face. Expression is an outward sign of an internal truth.
There's a lot of overlap.
Presentation is what hits other peoples' senses. Expression is sort of the why and how of it, and doesn't have to be understood by anyone else, or even oneself.
I don't even know if I'm making sense. I just know that it was expression that the not-male part of me was crying out for, but I feel I present as male.
At least to me, this makes perfect sense. IMHO we all try and present ourselves to the world, in such a way as to feel comfortable with who we are. Presenting as neither male nor female, is somewhat hard to do unless we find people around us that cannot see gender in anything such as clothing, mannor of expression, body shape...etc.
Expressing ourselves as a complete package of both sides of the gender equation allows others to see that we can express ourselves in such a way as to bridge that gap and allow a free flow of thoughts and ideas from both perspectives.
My expression tends to be practical: I get my hair cut very short because I hate going to get my hair cut, so very short makes it take longer till I have to get it cut again. I wear jeans and sweatshirts because that's the most comfortable clothing for me; style means nothing to me. (Color is important, though; if reflects my mood or gives me some level of personal power when I lack it or lets me blend into the background when I don't want it. I select my t-shirt color "carefully.")
My presentation tends to be male. I do not have any of the typical female trappings (jewelry, make-up, feminine clothing) and hence am taken as male.
I actually find this topic really interesting because I'm sort of newly identifying myself as Androgyne. I am physically female and have a large chest so...regardless of how I dress I am obviously female.
I tend to not go all one-way or the other and actually sometimes find myself in conflict with myself in deciding how to dress on a particular day/evening or for a particular event/outing.
I don't typically wear makeup as I like to be comfortable and don't really like 'stuff' on my skin but then sometimes, I do...although it's really just base and lipstick. I like to dress down most of the time but often feel like I should be displaying more of my feminine side as well. Yes, I'm confused, lol. When did it become obvious? :laugh:
I'm looking at the original post, and I'm having trouble making full sense of the differences laid out between the first type ("androgyne") and ("androgynous but not androgyne"), and in particular it stems from the idea of motivation. If someone identifies as "androgyne," then we're reasonably sure that's where the person falls, and if someone dresses androgynously for the sake of being bold or for fitting in, then the person most probably falls into the latter type. But I think there would be a decent number of people who (would like to) wear items that happen to be gender-incongruent or gender-b(l)ending on the basis of their internal interest in what said clothes offer (a feeling that comes from within) that doesn't pay attention to social cues, but they may not feel they have an "androgyne identity" (and any resistance would be regarded as society being unnecessarily narrow -- not that they're in it for a confrontation). My gut feeling is that they would still be androgynes despite not identifying as such -- TSs tend to not identify as TS or MtF/FtM but instead as as their gender ("man" or "woman"), so it wouldn't be the first time such a departure has occurred.
True. Labels are just models, and models are never more than convenient approximations. And there's always a furry line between the labels people choose for themselves, and the ones others choose for them. (Furry? I meant fuzzy, but I like furry :) ). So someone may be happy having androgyne qualities or an androgyne appearance, without needing or identifying with the androgyne label.
Quote from: Kaelin on October 18, 2012, 07:33:17 AM
But I think there would be a decent number of people who (would like to) wear items that happen to be gender-incongruent or gender-b(l)ending on the basis of their internal interest in what said clothes offer (a feeling that comes from within) that doesn't pay attention to social cues, but they may not feel they have an "androgyne identity" (and any resistance would be regarded as society being unnecessarily narrow -- not that they're in it for a confrontation). My gut feeling is that they would still be androgynes despite not identifying as such -- TSs tend to not identify as TS or MtF/FtM but instead as as their gender ("man" or "woman"), so it wouldn't be the first time such a departure has occurred.
I think this is sort of where I fall on the gender spectrum. I feel that if I had complete freedom to wear whatever I wanted without anyone caring, I would probably still dress semi-masculine, but just borrow different items from the more 'feminine' side of fashion as I felt like. For example, I really like how skirts look and feel, but lots of times when I'm trying to get things done I want my clothes to be more utilitarian, so I would probably still wear jeans a fair amount even if I had all other options available.
I felt for a long time that I was just a "crossdresser" and that was that. Not that there's anything wrong with that label, but I don't think that it describes me perfectly. I was in Tri-Ess for a while, but they (like lots of other crossdressing groups I think) were very focused on getting the whole presentation right, head to toe. And I understand why. I guess that if I genuinely felt that I was female inside, head to toe, then it would be a little different, but I don't really feel that way. So dressing up all the way, while I don't deny that it's lots of fun, :) still felt like kind of a costume or performance to me.
One thing that I like to do is have at least one thing that's different about me in my appearance, that most guys don't do or wear. Something that at least gives a hint that I might be interested in more 'feminine' things than most guys are. Like longer hair, or androgynous jewelry, or more colorful clothes. I would love to wear nail polish more, but I don't feel like I can get away with too much of that.
Quote from: Winter(howl) on August 10, 2012, 03:41:44 AM
I actually find this topic really interesting because I'm sort of newly identifying myself as Androgyne. I am physically female and have a large chest so...regardless of how I dress I am obviously female.
I tend to not go all one-way or the other and actually sometimes find myself in conflict with myself in deciding how to dress on a particular day/evening or for a particular event/outing.
I don't typically wear makeup as I like to be comfortable and don't really like 'stuff' on my skin but then sometimes, I do...although it's really just base and lipstick. I like to dress down most of the time but often feel like I should be displaying more of my feminine side as well. Yes, I'm confused, lol. When did it become obvious? :laugh:
Winter,
My initial response and photo was irritating to me and I changed it to add the following thoughts; I could quote your post and only change the gender terms and it would be completely me although my confusion is a thing of the past erased by the concept non-binary, something a lot of us should all consider before submitting for a lot of chopping, slicing and dicing by surgeons.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fscaled%2Fmedium%2F534%2Fhxb3.jpg&hash=3e979763bd55bab53216d4c805b8a1b08ee93b74) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/534/hxb3.jpg/)
LearnedHand "Henry" posted an excellent article in the Arts and Entertainment forum entitled "Bashing Binaries." It is an inspiring presentation! Heather Cassils is without a doubt the epitome of non-binary androgynous expression and quite a celebrated artist within GLBTQ circles, it's an excellent article and well worth the time to read and watch the videos!
Quote from: Kaelin on October 18, 2012, 07:33:17 AM... I think there would be a decent number of people who (would like to) wear items that happen to be gender-incongruent or gender-b(l)ending on the basis of their internal interest in what said clothes offer (a feeling that comes from within) that doesn't pay attention to social cues, but they may not feel they have an "androgyne identity" (and any resistance would be regarded as society being unnecessarily narrow -- not that they're in it for a confrontation).
I think this describes me.
Of course, it's not just clothes. Society has a whole bunch of things it has labeled as "M" or "F", and if you've been branded "M", you're not allowed to even want anything from the "F" box (and vice versa.) Emotions, colors, hobbies, occupations, ways to sit and stand, etc. If some of the things you've always wanted are in the "wrong" column, what do you do? Society (grudgingly) admits the possibility of re-branding, via SRS (but not before, Pvt. Manning!), but selecting two from column F and three from column M is still forbidden.
Now that I've become an old grouch, I finally feel free to say "[explitive deleted] that!"
As far as appearance is concerned, I have a unisex hairstyle (just a regular mohawk) and I wear what I feel comfortable in, which is often a mixture of "typical female" clothing and "typical male" clothing. I consider boots to also be unisex and boots is all I gots!
As far as identity is concerned, I don't do anything deliberately androgynous and I identify as female, but probably only because "choosing one of two sexes" has been so ingrained in society's view of sex/gender. If I had it my way, I would have no "business" at all "down there" because genitalia of any kind disgusts me. Well, on me. On others, I don't really give a >-bleeped-<. I can't even stand taking baths or full-body mirrors when I'm in my nudey pants because I can't stand seeing "parts" on me. It makes me shudder and I get all disgusted and grossed out. I believe it's for this reason that I'm also virtually asexual, despite the fact that I am attracted to women. It's all very confusing...
Not only can I not stand to look at myself, I can't stand to touch myself and I don't like for others to touch me (there) either. I'm on a daily guilt trip as a married individual, b'cause my wife is a "perfectly normal" lesbian who has needs and desires I can't fulfill due to my self-disgust. I don't know what to do. If there's a legally surgery that aesthetically "neuter" someone and/or if I'd even want this surgery... I'm seriously so lost and, for my poor wife's sake, desperate for a solution. Suggestions? Ideas? HELP! :icon_nervious:
I have come to view myself, for lack of better terms, as an androgynous trigender. I have three modes of dress: socially feminine (Evelyn), socially masculine (Evan) and my adrogynous attire (Ev.) However, within them all, there is a more "feminine" touch because I am just a soft person all-round. My identity is androgyne, but I am what I like to call a "role-filler" and don't mind wearing dresses or slacks if the situation calls for it. Call me Evelyn if you view me as female, or call me Evan if you view me as male. If you don't care either way, use Ev. None of it bothers me a lick. I am me. I leave the lables for others to slap on me, and if I like it I'll wear it with pride. If it doesn't fit, well, then I will have to ask myself is it justified? Whatever gets them through. I am not a confrontational person and will avoid fighting up until there is absolutely no other option. If letting them call me "man" or "woman" keeps the peace, then the peace shall be kept. You only live once and arguing with stubborn narrow-minded people is a waste of time.
I know who I am even if I am yet to put it to words they understand. (A funny situation that is, seeing as to how I am a published author.)
I want to go through the MTF process, however, because quite frankly I can't stand my own penis. There is no other way to put it. It hurts me, actually, in more ways than one. If someone had a toxic/failing kidney, bad tonsils, or a ruptured appendix they would remove it, right? If they needed corrective eye surgery to fix their vision they would get it done if they felt the need, I hope. For me the penis is just an organ and if altering it eases my suffering than by all means I am going to do it. Even after the change...and hormones if needed...I will still identify as androgyne. To me the penis/vagina/genitals has nothing to do with gender roles: it is an organ, nothing more and nothing less.
This thread, and the entire term "androgyn", has confused me a little.
I understand non-binary, as a psychological state.
However, as a physical state, I am genderqueer. But if you were to take my pic, you would have a male head with long hair and a beautiful face with some yucky facial hair that needs to be there, a knockout female body at half transition, and something different in the unseen place that goes with that beard.
Now if I look at a stutue of androgyne on wikipedia, there I am.
The only thing that ever makes sense to me is non binary, in here. But in the outside world, it would be much easier to id as androgyne, for that is what my no-op hormonally transitioned female body is. DES wired central nervous system and endo system and bone structure... simple as that, but not intersex, a womb transition for me. not to overcomplicate but it is fascinating anyway.
Presentationally, not concerned, male, female, half, depends on social, fluidity, mood, anything. Whatever there, mostly stealth anyway out the door, and nails out and hair down openly genderqueer, conservatively dressed. I keep the boobs loosely covered but not fattened.
So, am I technically androgyne? Or genderqueer? The mind and core is neutral and somewhat amused by the whole thing.
The only thing I really understand, is I belong here with all of you. And I love that.
Interesting thread. Apologies in advance for the ramble but my journey is similar to many who have posted on this thread.
First my sense of identity continues to evolve. ATM I am non binary but still present as male albeit with increasing androgynous or feminine elements. I once considered myself a cross dresser and quite frankly was frustrated and puzzled by the need to dress 100%. As Julia Erin said having to do the head to toe thing just felt like an artifice, a costume.
Then I was diagnosed TG and started hrt. This was transformational and I rushed into FFS. (Perhaps if. I had had Shantel's perspective this is something I may have delayed or avoided entirely). Luckily my surgeon and I specified an androgynous outcome so I guess that FAS would be more accurate than FFS
Started the hair removal. Finally clearing my face after 130 hrs of galvanic, 66 hrs of thermolysis and 7 full body ipl plus additional back treatments.
Hair growing longer and grooming eye brows and nails. Dressing with a little more colour and style.
Still quite heavy due to athletics background, T and large frame. I suspect that a focused diet would be a significant next step in my transformation but have yet to commit to this.
The above is presentational, each step is small but has been significant to me. I have flexed low dose hrt to reflect my inner journey which shifted from the classic MTF binary transformation to MTA or MTNB
Internally the hrt, many hours of therapy, reading and discussion has led me along a path of seeking self understanding, authentic expression and conscious exploration, all within a marriage of nearly 30 years, a conservative (read largely military) family and a history of phlegmatism. With hindsight I can see why I chose a military career, dangerous hobbies and the 'strong, silent type' persona as it protected me and hid me from those that may otherwise have seen that I was not a binary male, and was in fact just a very good actor and a full time fraud.
I now see my path as leading me to seek access to the fullest possible arrange of human attributes, emotions and expressions whether they have gender connotations or not. I have shared this with selected family, friends and colleagues and received nothing but support and love.
Being able to fluidly, authentically and appropriately (for the situation and for me) express myself is my goal. I suspect that this will likely cause me to present as more androgynous but it could lead me towards a more GQ presentation. This does not mean that I don't see MTF as an option but that MTF currently feels to me, to be sub optimal, a compromise and surrendering to binary thinking and pressure.
Safe travels
Aisla
I could parrot much of what Aisla said in terms of my own life and experience, all that had gone before in life was the crucible, hammer and anvil that made me who I am today, these are the things that make us all uniquely different and yet similar in this forum. And though I have opted for more color and style in my own life as opposed to the former drabness of strictly standard male presentation I would no more cast away the love of my life going on 45 years or my connection to extended family and a few very close friends than commit suicide. I can't speak for those that trash their entire past and hide their former history as if it never existed, nor will I condemn them for it, we are all so uniquely different internally and externally with different values and sense of connectedness and obligation to ourselves and others, so that I can't say what is right and what is wrong for others. Initially I had been moving at warp speed to full transition but an internal signal said NO! I made it half way there and after a lengthy time of introspection I came to the conclusion that this place is a composite of the best there is and I am at peace with that and with the One who made me.
Shantel
We seem to have been following parallel paths. You have highlighted a significant factor which I did not include in my post - socialisation or life experience/investment and evolving identity, perhaps because many (and I include myself) often see acknowledging one's past as a constraint or disabling factor re realising your dream and future.
As you have pointed out, we are however, products of our dreams, genes, family, formative experiences/events etc. Much as I worked towards constructing a clean break from my past and starting afresh, I failed. I had invested too much in family, career and community to walk away/damage/reject this asset.
Realising this, was a cause for much introspection and much over think. Did this mean that I was burdened, compromised or damaged by my past? Or was I blessed by my past? One thing that I have learned, and there hasn't been a lot, is that language is critical and integrating life experience and interpreting it positively is a strong enabler. I therefore chose to see my past as a blessing. I saw my behavior as appropriate rather than selfish or selfless, I saw that there was much that I could take forward and there was much that I could add and I could enhance.
Low dose hrt has produced a step change in my psychological health (no more dysphoria ). Consciously owning and choosing a non binary presentation and identity has been a very powerful, empowering and affirming decision and statement. I am no longer at the mercy of my past life or social forces, I can plot my course with confidence and take a journey which maximises the opportunity for personal growth and expression.
Aisla
Right on Aisla, we're on the same trajectory hon! I've had enough misery in my own life than to create more for myself and those I love and care for when just a little fine tuning is sufficient.
Good heavens you folks are brilliant.
Fascinating. Did you sacrifice the mtf for your wives or realize it was off your center? Both for me, but there was something not quite right with the mtf part for me anyway. Doesnt click. Yet physically and prefered clothing, even if hidden, fully mtf. Lately I want to push, but that boundary was set and resolved and accepted a month ago. An annoyance, nothing more, that I cannot fully transition around my girl. She cant handle it.
We need these enduring marrage successes so bad on this site.
I can control expression, but not the core identity, that I have to embrace instead.
Quote from: Satinjoy on June 17, 2014, 08:08:51 PM
Good heavens you folks are brilliant.
Fascinating. Did you sacrifice the mtf for your wives or realize it was off your center? Both for me, but there was something not quite right with the mtf part for me anyway. Doesnt click. Yet physically and prefered clothing, even if hidden, fully mtf. Lately I want to push, but that boundary was set and resolved and accepted a month ago. An annoyance, nothing more, that I cannot fully transition around my girl. She cant handle it.
We need these enduring marrage successes so bad on this site.
I can control expression, but not the core identity, that I have to embrace instead.
I just addressed a lot of this in Alpha male expression, going to check out for the evening and spend some time with the sweetie here.
Quote from: Satinjoy on June 17, 2014, 08:08:51 PM
I can control expression, but not the core identity, that I have to embrace instead.
Nicely put.
I am non-transitioning sacrificing that portion of myself for the sake of my family. In addition, what's around now for treatment, though quite impressive, isn't there for me. Financially, restarting my career is not an option.
So I make do with what I can, electro, low dose HRT, and making occasional noise here. Perhaps some day I'll say stuff it all - if that day comes, I hope and pray someone will be there to catch me, because I have no idea which way I'll go.
It's funny that post low dose hrt, and having lived the life of an alpha male, any less masculine expression gives me enormous relief and validation. Yes the significant downside of a binary transition is a real deterrent, but so is ignoring the benefit of a non binary expression which feels far more consistent with my non binary identity. I almost feel that it would be a personal failure to choose a binary transition when I know that either binary does not capture my identity.
Aisla
Quote from: Aisla on June 20, 2014, 09:25:51 AM
It's funny that post low dose hrt, and living the life of an alpha male, any less masculine expression gives me enormous relief and validation. Yes the significant downside of a binary transition is a real deterrent, but so is ignoring the benefit of a non binary expression which feels far more consistent with my non binary identity. I almost feel that it would be a personal failure to choose a binary transition when I know that either binary does not capture my identity.
Aisla
Yes to this!
Though I am on full dose female HRT and have been for years, it makes me no less non-binary in my expression or in the perceptions of others because male behavior is 90% +/- learned through socialization and 10% +/- testosterone driven, the same can be said about female behavior, which means that we will remain who we are at our core regardless. I got this from the VA endocrinologist who says there is no way to scientifically quantify those figures which are more the results of learned observation so the plus/minus factors can vary from one individual to the next. This conversation came about as he was amazed that I had no intentions of becoming a woman like all the rest of his MtF veterans do and questioned my motives as his experience up until then was working with strictly binary types.
Shantel
I look forward to the day when binarism is consigned to the annals of history. Explaining non binarism to binarists seems to be a permanent topic of conversation. Once explained, you can see understanding and then alarm as they consider the possibility that, often for the first time, they are not just pink or blue, that they exist on a continuum - that they have the opportunity and responsibility to explore and to express their identity
Aisla
Quote from: Aisla on June 20, 2014, 05:09:31 PM
Shantel
I look forward to the day when binarism is consigned to the annals of history. Explaining non binarism to binarists seems to be a permanent topic of conversation. Once explained, you can see understanding and then alarm as they consider the possibility that, often for the first time, they are not just pink or blue, that they exist on a continuum - that they have the opportunity and responsibility to explore and to express their identity
Aisla
I was on an elevator years ago in a high-rise office building in my work clothes, should have taken the service elevator. The men and women in their slick business suits seemed a bit put off, the air was thick with their stuffy insufferable arrogance. I couldn't help but muse over the thought of what would happen if everyone was suddenly naked and "poof "their clothes just disappeared. From a physical perspective this ties in to perceptions that people cling to about themselves, who they are and how they fit the binary model.
I identify as androgyne, but my expressión is too fluid, sometimes i have an androgynous expression, other time i have a masculine or femenine expression.
Not all androgynous are androgynes and not all androgynes are androgynous
I had a breakthrough about Androgyne expression on night on a long walk home.
If I am wearing clothes, and I own them, then those are *MY* clothes. There is no Male or Female clothing. There is only *MY* clothing, and other people's labels of the cloth I drape over my body are other people's labels that do not concern me.
It's still hard diving into a women's section of a clothing store, and I dress more like a masculine lesbian than a woman. This doesn't keep gross men from making kissy sounds at me or think I am a prostitute, because anything with feminine features *MUST* be looking for sex from men?
I remove a lot of body hair, and I think this causes me problems at work. I assume people think I am possibly Gay because the concept of Queer would require them to think about the world in terms other than themselves, a thinking that happens when you're Queer because you have to come out of the cocoon of taught behaviours.
Having said this, I don't necessarily think it is vitally important to take on the cosmetic/asthetics of the other gender to identify as Androgyne. It is something I choose to do to celebrate myself and feel comfortable when I am not threatened by society or family.
But, being Androgyne is ultimately a state of consciousness as I have experienced it.
My gender used to be all over the place. And it some ways, it still is. I identify as a transwoman now, but I still identify as genderqueer.
I used to identify as a agender, and then I identified as an androgyne. And then I went back to identifying as agender for a while.
In some ways I feel kind of like both and androgyne and a transwoman. But really I'm a transwoman. I've discovered I was a girl all along.
But I still don't want to have a stereotypical feminine body type in all ways. I won't breasts and curves and things like that.
There are all sorts of things. Just because you identify as a gender doesn't mean you want to present in that way in all the ways.
There are female feminists and male feminists who try to go against gender stereotypes because they feel like it's important to challenge stereotypes.
Lots of feminist women like to present in a masculine fashion because they feel like it's important to be against gender stereotypes. And lots of feminist men like to present in a feminine fashion because they feel like it's important to be against gender stereotypes.
I think it's important and wonderful to challenge gender stereotypes. Gender roles are really bad. They're the worst thing. And women and men come in all different shapes and sizes!
A biological female body born with a birth intersex condition that led me to believe I would grow up as a boy rather than a girl - it's kind of amazing how much an enlarged penis-like clitoris changes your view on your body and mind... Believing I was a male and coming to realize I am non-binary... then realizing I originally desired to be sexless, viewing myself as a neutered male... then agender, neutered male, agender, neutered male, agender...
Coming to accept I have feminine qualities within my identity that continue to grow stronger and stronger everyday, yet I do not desire a female body. Female(ish) voice, curves, smooth skin, smells, little to no body-hair... just no indicators of breasts or vagina. If I desired such, I would wear false breasts (a A-B cup size)... I would prefer this than to deal with these... things on my chest that are much too large.
Does having a strong leaning towards femininity negate the androgyne label...? Non-Binary is open enough as an umbrella... agender seems close but I relate to femininity, even though femininity is not a gender, it's a trait of one...? I don't know... someone said being agender means you cannot relate to femininity or masculinity at all, yet I do... I have very strong desire to gender express myself as feminine or androgynous.
Or maybe I am a female who has a not-female body...? Perhaps I am a boy who is feminine in nature and appearance, having no genitals of neither sex.
Such confusion... How to nip it in the bud...?
I am Jacey... a sexless person who enjoys dressing like a female...
You might be a demi-gendered individual.
Judith Butler, UC Berkeley, Gender/Feminist Critical Theory ("Gender Trouble" and others) -- talks about "gender performance." In essence, we perform all the time. Some of us think about it more than others. Cis-types don't think about it much at all. Their "performance" is seamless, unaffected.
Right now I think about what I'm wearing, if it "works" -- which is gender ambig, or "unisex" . . . I dress like women, engaged in outdoor recreation, at the beach.
There's a realm "in the middle" where presentation is not altogether "obvious" -- hair to the shoulders, 6 earrings of varying "gender" depending what/how I'm doing/feeling.
Mostly I'm "authentically me." The perceptions of others is not my concern.
Quote from: Cade on April 24, 2012, 06:59:58 PM
My expression tends to be practical: I get my hair cut very short because I hate going to get my hair cut, so very short makes it take longer till I have to get it cut again. I wear jeans and sweatshirts because that's the most comfortable clothing for me; style means nothing to me. (Color is important, though; if reflects my mood or gives me some level of personal power when I lack it or lets me blend into the background when I don't want it. I select my t-shirt color "carefully.")
My presentation tends to be male. I do not have any of the typical female trappings (jewelry, make-up, feminine clothing) and hence am taken as male.
EXTENDED POST FOLLOWS -- LONG, BUT SEEMINGLY PROBATIVE -- It's turning into a dissertation! Interesting . . .
Ironic that there's no "cis-designation" in this post. (WHICH IS PRECISELY THE WHOLE POINT!)
Personally, we're "in the middle" -- All sorts of "female" role performance traits (cf. Judith Butler), but I choose to "straddle" and in the straddling keep open the option of integrating both sides (sex) into an authentic self.
Cis-male here, and integrated from both ends of the "hetero-normative dyad." The "style" is "Coastal Week-End Casual" -- even there's a boutique locally that uses this tag as a marketing niche. We shop Goodwill -- Hoodies, tank tops, polar fleece jacket/pullover, beach-comber pants (men's are "clam-diggers" women's "capris" -- but basically long cargo shorts), wading sandals. Lots of layering to fit the changing weather.
(Let's note here that I do indeed have a full wardrobe of frilly, lacy, dresses, skirts, under-trappings, absurd stuff I can't wear "out" but love and horde anyway.)
Added benefit is that this gear allows me to walk, hike, recreate. Practical, functional clothing. Unisex or gender ambiguous. I concede that I shop for women's stuff that fits, works and that much of this "cross-over" is politically motivated (check my signature).
I'm gonna add my email to/from Judith Butler herein (infra) --
And so, we've considered anti-androgens, bi-lateral orchi, electrolysis -- but without equivocation, no top/bottom surgery. I don't want "to become someone else." I've been me all my 67 yrs, and it seems schizo to me to think about changing "who I am." (Besides which, I'm not broken and don't need fixing.)
Endocrine systems are fussy, delicately balanced. Trying to tweak that balance into a new/different balance point is daunting in the first place, possibly fraught with all sorts of imbalance issues for me. But mostly, I'm feeling like I don't need to tweak my body to make it conform to cultural expectations regarding the "dyad." I'm most comfortable being able to move back and forth across the line.
Finasteride, HRT, bilateral-orchi . . . down-sides seem to be fat gain, strength loss, osteoporosis. Let's add to this that we're getting serious about fitness, losing weight, improving endurance/muscle tone. In the aerobic/fitness world, I'm a "quick responder" -- gain fitness rapidly from exercise. Part of this is testosterone.
Down-side of testosterone is facial hair, body hair. Male bone structure, thinning hair (mine is medi-thick, full-body, beyond my shoulders), AND, having been chronically sexually abused as a child, I don't like seeing my abuser standing naked in the mirror! Male sex drive drives me nutz, threatening, and like being on a bucking horse! I hate it!
I'd like to take the edge off the testes . . . (Finasteride), but 83% of those using it get anxious/depressed. I'm 100% service connected for anxiety/depression. But also I wonder if the psych issues are related to "loss of sex drive" and "feminization" which is entirely the whole point! Sounds like a crap shoot.
And, having spent considerable time/effort in weight loss, body fitness, I'm hesitant to tweak the hormonal balance on a body that's all tuned up and running smoothly, health issues under control (cholesterol, blood pressure, diabetes2, reflux).
Week-end beach casual -- pragmatic for recreation, and "presenting" somewhere in the middle. Clothes from both genders (unisex, ambiguous), earrings (6 ea), shoulder length hair, colored hair ties . . .
Let me post my email to Judith Butler, and her reply
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Blow me away here!
Judith Butler, Gender/Crit. Theory, UC Berkeley,
This came up in therapy:
"Normative" suggests valorization & that accordingly, we amongst the in-between are ipso facto not "normal."
We are "normal" -- not dysfunctional, not pathological. We are a minority, but we are not "defective" -- & we shouldn't "need" radical, invasive, medical intervention to "fix" something not broken in the first place.
This is a cultural issue. Cis-women are permitted to "cross-dress" in male attire w/o raising issues of presentation/orientation. Cis-men not culturally permitted options to dress female on account of socio-cultural conventions.
But all this "in between" gender niche has always been a "normatve" feature going back at least to Deuteronomy -- who viewed the middle-orientation as an "abomination" -- and accordingly "not normative."
But gender diverse orientation is entirely normative. And cis-men shouldn't need to submit to radical, extreme medical intervention to fix what's not broken.
What about "Non-hetero-majoritarian" ???
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"SchizoMorphia" -- The anxious post-gender-transition epiphany that one still is who they (sic) are, but no longer who they were.
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67 yrs. old here. Cis-male, Allison Wunderland on FaceBite. Disabled veteran (PTSD, gender-dysphoria), Ph.D Eng. linguistics, critical theory 1988. We need to sit in on your classroom.
☆☆☆
Name/email redacted
Text "edited" by a not-so-smart Android app.
Let's see what she thinks . . .
Dear [Allison Wunderland]
Thank you for your message. In general, I do not reply to all the queries I get, but I am glad to reply with this one message. I am sorry I cannot pursue a dialogue any further.
On the one hand, we argue against forms of normativity that set up one model as "normal" and demeans others as abnormal or pathological. On the other hand, some of us want to be regarded as "within the norm of the human" that is, within the spectrum of gender and sexual possibilities. So in the first instance, we object to restriction and hierarchy, but in the second, we ask for inclusion and the suspension of derogatory judgment. Perhaps we ask too much of terms like normativit, norms, the normal, and normalization. IN philosophy, "normative" described positions that posit what shoudl be the case. And yet, in most queer theory, "normative" is equated with normalization. I think that is probably an error. Perhaps the struggle is for a "new normal" - to expand our ideas of normality. That seems to be the desire implicit in the remarks that I have read. I am not sure any category of identity will solve this problem.
Good luck with your reflections.
best,
Judith Butler
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Blow me away here!
Quote from: EchelonHunt on October 25, 2014, 03:25:40 AM
Believing I was a male and coming to realize I am non-binary... then realizing I originally desired to be sexless, viewing myself as a neutered male... then agender, neutered male, agender, neutered male, agender...
Coming to accept I have feminine qualities within my identity that continue to grow stronger and stronger everyday, yet I do not desire a female body. Female(ish) voice, curves, smooth skin, smells, little to no body-hair... just no indicators of breasts or vagina. If I desired such, I would wear false breasts (a A-B cup size)... I would prefer this than to deal with these... things on my chest that are much too large.
Does having a strong leaning towards femininity negate the androgyne label...? Non-Binary is open enough as an umbrella... agender seems close but I relate to femininity, even though femininity is not a gender, it's a trait of one...? I don't know... someone said being agender means you cannot relate to femininity or masculinity at all, yet I do... I have very strong desire to gender express myself as feminine or androgynous.
Or maybe I am a female who has a not-female body...? Perhaps I am a boy who is feminine in nature and appearance, having no genitals of neither sex.
Such confusion... How to nip it in the bud...?
I am Jacey... a sexless person who enjoys dressing like a female...
I'm not intersex, but am a biological female who identifies as sexless. I like the sound of neutered* because if I have to belong to any one sex, I'd prefer it to be without genitals. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Anna-Varney Cantodea, singer and sole band member of Sopor Aeternus and the Ensemble of Shadows, but a lot of her photography and lyrical themes remind me of what you wrote. I think confusion is a part of our whole dilemma.
Despite major confusion via dreams, thoughts, fantasies, etc. I often think I should maybe want male genitals. Then I think harder and -ope, nope, no genitals, please, then it starts again from the beginning. It's enough to drive you mad! I wear whatever I feel like (usually a band shirt with whatever pants fit me at the moment), depending on weather, crocs or Docs. :) It's neither sex/gender-based nor does it orient itself to a specific subculture. Lots of people ask me what I am (male, female, punk, goth, band member, insane, etc.), so whatever I'm doing, I must be doing right.
"Kein Gott, Kein Staat, Kein Fleischsalat"
Ich habe es so viel gern . . .
German/English online trans. (pun intended) for Fleischsalat, is "meat salad with mayonnaise" --
I'm not "sexless" -- which might be a problematic trans. from the German. I'm sexual, but I'm not sexually active, not with other people. Not requiring or seeking a partner (I'm 67.) Sexual relations get complicated.
Gender relations are another matter. Gender is inescapable, unavoidable, ineluctable.
A lot of your physical body is going to "present" a gender for you before you make any choices about it. The rest of the "presentation" is a politically charged exercise where statements take on context and complication.
Nobody "mistakes" me for "female." -- despite my wearing a lot of "female" labels in the clothing. It's all gender neutral stuff -- except for the parts that don't show.
"Chopped meat, flesh-salad with mayonnaise" -- "Fleischsalat"
I'd like to try "genderless" -- I'd like to believe in "gender-faeries" . . .
Mostly, I like to avoid the "Fleischsalat."
Anyone who has ever bothered to get to know me, or paid any attention, would know that my personality/spirit always been androgynous to masculine. But, I dressed female exclusively for many reasons, work, family, expectations, social pressure... and pressure is the right word for me. Since I've started dressing more to the way I feel, androgynous to masculine, and those who know me aren't surprised in the least. Really, this has been hardest on the people who thought they knew me, but never paid attention.
;)
That's my 2 cents from this corner of the world. :)
L~
It took me a while to understand the difference between androgynous and androgyne. Like, I used to identify as a transmasculine genderqueer. But I have always had an androgynous style. Being transgender, I felt like there was just so much pressure on me to be masculine or nobody would take me seriously. Like, the only people I'm closeted to is most of my family, and I'm involved in church. I was afraid that if I came to church looking feminine, they'd see that as me not being a guy. So that was a really emotionally trying time for me. Non-binary never really fit for me per say because I do identify strongly as transgender, even though I relate strongly to the feminine energy. But for the most part, thinking back on it, I would often forget I even had a gender until someone used her/she pronouns, which really bugged me. Now I don't mind as long as the person knows that I'm not just a she. My boyfriend still calls me his girlfriend and uses feminine words when referring to me. But he asked me if I was okay with him doing that. Which I totally am. I love being a girl when I'm with him; for him and him only. But then I discovered Androgyny as a gender. I thought that wasn't me either because I'm not really in-between but more towards one and nothing I learned more about it and finally it clicked. I'm androgyne.
I think all of us come through a stage of conflating expression with identity. Identity, is something you know at your core. I might not be very clear in here, but I know that it's my gender identity and not expression at work when I say I am a tomboy and nobody believes me, because I don't do sports, use nail polish, and I'm quite girly in general. It's about some deeper truth about me, it's about the whole image, not the pixels that create it.
Hi, I can relate to Satinjoy on this. I call myself androgyne but to me it's just a label. I consider myself male and female at the same time, I can flow very easily from one to the other depending on the circumstances. I was castrated when I was 23 (after an accident) and it took me a while to adapt to it but thinking about it now it didn't particularly change how I am. Nowadays (at 25) I look more feminine and can pass as a girl if I want to. I consider myself on the feminine side of androgyne, if I think about it at all. My appearance is natural blonde, slim, delicate features, no facial hair and a husky voice. Without clothes I sometimes come across as a bit of a surprise, good muscle definition (as in athletic), very little body hair and no pubic hair at all. I have a functional penis but obviously no balls. So physically I have both male and female characteristics. Inside I am the same, both male and female. I can express either one depending on what I feel like or switch between the two at the drop of a hat. I'm perfectly comfortable how I am and have no plans for SRS, though I tempted to became more feminine. Justine x