Im going to sound ignorant. Im warning you now. Im honestily just trying to understand so please be nice about it
But i have this question that maybe you can answer. Were trying to normalize our selfs and make it so we are close to normal society as it. Today in America its still kind of a taboo thing as you well know and we really dont get the recognition we deserve at any lgbt event. But my question is why are people so afraid of being outed? I mean i understand that sometimes its not a safe place (unaccepting home, unsafe areas etc..) but i mean the way i look at it is who the f#*$ cares. We need people that we exist and we are not going anywhere. Like im so blunt about it. I think its a healthy thing to do to help to answer question with people and here them say "i was on the fence about understanding but now i completely get it" i mean i just feel like we should be more open about even though we dont like it. Help?
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I agree that more openness and visibility would force society at large to recognize our existence, however...
There is a deep psychological reason for many peoples' reluctance to come out.
I realized I am trans about forty-five years ago. In those days, in the part of the U.S. where I come from, a boy would get beaten to a pulp for something as inconsequential as wearing a pink shirt or showing an interest in dolls. There would be no consequences to the beater because it was the boy's fault for being different. The other kids, teachers in school and even family members were all involved. My dad beat the crap out of me when I was 12 for taking an interest in painting. He said it was too effeminate for his son. I know it sounds stupid now, but back then it was normal for him to feel that way and nobody thought anything of it.
We have come a long way since then but that sort of thing sticks with a person. Staying alive and out of the hospital meant staying hidden for the first thirty years of my life. It became ingrained and is very difficult to change, as much as I may want to.
Quote from: Thea on November 30, 2017, 09:17:39 PM
I agree that more openness and visibility would force society at large to recognize our existence, however...
There is a deep psychological reason for many peoples' reluctance to come out.
I realized I am trans about forty-five years ago. In those days, in the part of the U.S. where I come from, a boy would get beaten to a pulp for something as inconsequential as wearing a pink shirt or showing an interest in dolls. There would be no consequences to the beater because it was the boy's fault for being different. The other kids, teachers in school and even family members were all involved. My dad beat the crap out of me when I was 12 for taking an interest in painting. He said it was too effeminate for his son. I know it sounds stupid now, but back then it was normal for him to feel that way and nobody thought anything of it.
We have come a long way since then but that sort of thing sticks with a person. Staying alive and out of the hospital meant staying hidden for the first thirty years of my life. It became ingrained and is very difficult to change, as much as I may want to.
Im so sorry thats awful. Well im glad things are diffrent for you now.... i can understand how that would throw a wrench in those gears
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I am privileged to live in a place where it is mostly safe to be out. I make no effort to be "stealth". I just go about my business as myself, and it is no big deal. I agree, that it helps to normalize our presence, and thereby make it a little bit safer for others following in this path.
But there are many places where a trans person can get discriminated against, beaten or even killed, just for being who they are. Unfortunately, this is not rare. As long as those horrible things still happen, people will feel a need to hide who they really are, whether it be staying in the closet and never transitioning or going stealth and avoiding mention of their past.
I'm fairly open about who and what I am. But I also identify as close-enough to binary female, that that is how I like to be treated by society.
So for me personally it's not about safety (I've never felt unsafe where I live or work), but simply fitting into those roles and behaviors that Western culture has already built.
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Quote from: Taylorcaudle on November 30, 2017, 04:27:19 PM
Im going to sound ignorant. Im warning you now. Im honestily just trying to understand so please be nice about it
But i have this question that maybe you can answer. Were trying to normalize our selfs and make it so we are close to normal society as it. Today in America its still kind of a taboo thing as you well know and we really dont get the recognition we deserve at any lgbt event. But my question is why are people so afraid of being outed? I mean i understand that sometimes its not a safe place (unaccepting home, unsafe areas etc..) but i mean the way i look at it is who the f#*$ cares. We need people that we exist and we are not going anywhere. Like im so blunt about it. I think its a healthy thing to do to help to answer question with people and here them say "i was on the fence about understanding but now i completely get it" i mean i just feel like we should be more open about even though we dont like it. Help?
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
I am with you on this 100%! I get the safety thing but, we need to live openly and we have to accept all ourselves. We all try to forget we were boys and erase all the pics but, for me, it is who I was and still am. I agree that being passable is great!!! At the same time, I value my uniqueness as a transwoman and I share this with people I trust and seem to be accepting of all people. Blending in just means we aren't really making ourselves known and letting people know who we are. At the same time we have to have that caution too with all the crazy people out there. It is a tricky dance that we play.
This is a good question that I have struggled with at times. I have no shame in being trans. I have developed a pride and want to educate people about people like me. Sometimes I am happy to be different than anyone else where I work. Then there are times when I don't want to be an 'other.' I just want to be a run of the mill, everyday, USDA approved woman. I don't know yet whether it is possible to be both, out and proud and inconspicuous all in the same life. I think in terms of explanation, I grew up craving being female. I was tortured by the fact I wasn't. I did not grow up wanting to be trans. Reality says, I can be a trans woman. To be happy, I have to be okay with this. It doesn't mean that I still don't crave the validation I get when someone considers me to be AFAB.
I think we are very different than people who are gay or lesbian. They can be out, proud, work to build a community very openly and it doesn't detract from there goal, loving someone of the same sex. For us, being conspicuous is something we try to work to avoid (most of us.) Look at all the effort that goes into passing. So in the animal world, the gays and lesbians are more suited to being lions, communal. We are more suited to being the lone wolf, well, aside from the whole tearing our prey apart with our teeth kind of thing.
Moni
Normal? Perhaps it's because of my history but I have never been and have no desire to be that. Like you Moni, I'd be glad to be passable but that's not gonna happen anytime soon so instead I look how I look and yeah, people stare at me sometimes, a 60yo woman in a black skirt with clearly obvious breasts, balding with a beard.
It's my normal and as far as I can tell all my people take it for normal. That will do fine.
I'm not open about being trans at all. I am as stealth as possible. I don't want to be known as a trans woman. I would never tell people I am trans. I don't care how open minded and accepting someone claims to be, the second you tell them you're trans they no longer see you as female. You're a trans woman and not a real female. I haven't gone through transition and I'm not going through the pain of SRS in May to then be considered a guy who had his dick cut off. That's how a lot of people view trans women. I see nothing about being trans to be proud of. To me that's like saying " I was born with a cleft palate. Here's some pictures of me before I had it fixed".
Julia I feel I get your point and indeed I think you already know I somewhat envy that you have that option (yes I could pass if I had more money and more time but I have neither).
I find those things we don't have a choice in can be the most instructive. You will always have been trans. Others have come by the site noting that over the years that began to weigh on them.
What I think it comes to is accepting yourself is the key. You can never force acceptance from others. I do what I can to keep myself among positive people. This means I have effectively no contact with most of my family and it's a price I don't mind.
It's a reason I see trans people all the time. I live and work in Cambridge ma, arguably the most liberal place in the US. People gravitate to places where they're accepted.
I agree with Julia and Thea. There is so much negatives that other people perceive that it's hard to overcome to be able to embrace it lgbt events. I grew up in an area where it was NOT friendly to come out no matter how accepting my parents were. I would have been beaten up daily or worse. I also want to be seen as a woman, not a trans woman. I don't think that's in the cards for me, but I will try. I attend support group's but do not attend pride rallies. I know that is kind of hypocritical, but I don't have pride in being trans. I still wish I wasn't. That's my normal. With acceptance of the public, I may have less animosity about myself, but it's a catch 22. We need more of us out there to represent to show we are normal and the public will accept us., but to feel normal we need the public acceptance to be able to represent.
Bari Jo
If I were several decades younger I would want to be stealth. I would fully transition then move to a place where no one knew me so I could start fresh and spend the rest of my life as a woman with no male baggage to interfere.
In reality I am too old to start over somewhere new. Trying to hide in the shadows and keep a low profile takes a lot of energy and would prevent me from enjoying life. I don't plan to march in parades, but I also won't hide from my past. I plan to have fun with my transition and if possible help others who may follow. I doubt that I will ever wear the t-shirt, but if someone is curious I will do my best to educate them.
I would love to blend in with the crowd and just be seen as any other woman, and maybe after enough time passes that may happen. Until then I will try to enjoy my uniqueness, educate others, and become the best woman I can be.
When I started transitioning I did it in an area where I lived and worked for close to twenty years, I thought everyone would see how much happier I was and accept it. I hoped I could change peoples minds and make the world a better place for Trans people, I was so wrong. People that I had known and worked with for years became very distant, some would be all nice to me to my face then tear me apart later talking with the other people I worked with. Some of them showed great animosity toward me and were belligerent and hostile.
When I needed to find a new job people that I had known in the industry for years would blow me off, not return calls,
and cancel appointments. I was very well known to these companies I designed some their products and assembly process. People would tell me if it was up to them they would hire me but others in management thought it would be disruptive.
I finally found a job 120 miles from where I used to live, I applied under my new name and gender and one here knows me from before. The previous three companies I had worked at closed or moved out of state so they couldn't talk with them. I took a pay cut and I am working as a tech instead of an engineer but at least now I am a woman.
If you can successfully and happily live openly I am happy for you, it did not work for me.
Steph
Quote from: Stevie on December 08, 2017, 08:21:19 PM
When I started transitioning I did it in an area where I lived and worked for close to twenty years, I thought everyone would see how much happier I was and accept it. I hoped I could change peoples minds and make the world a better place for Trans people, I was so wrong. People that I had known and worked with for years became very distant, some would be all nice to me to my face then tear me apart later talking with the other people I worked with. Some of them showed great animosity toward me and were belligerent and hostile.
When I needed to find a new job people that I had known in the industry for years would blow me off, not return calls,
and cancel appointments. I was very well known to these companies I designed some their products and assembly process. People would tell me if it was up to them they would hire me but others in management thought it would be disruptive.
I finally found a job 120 miles from where I used to live, I applied under my new name and gender and one here knows me from before. The previous three companies I had worked at closed or moved out of state so they couldn't talk with them. I took a pay cut and I am working as a tech instead of an engineer but at least now I am a woman.
If you can successfully and happily live openly I am happy for you, it did not work for me.
Steph
Unfortunately everything in your post sounds dead on. I had to change schools when I was young and then I went back for a while being a "GHASP" man. ::)
You do know in some cultures it was normal for a third gender? This also goes for the OP too. I mean some Native American cultures considered it normal and the "women" would "marry" a warrior even after he "married" another woman. If not some one would marry them if it was a polygamist nation. I mean we have one of the best examples of Trans Men with Joan of Arc. In my home state during the 1700s or maybe even latter 1600s a woman cross dressed and cut her hair short and died in that state. She was called Petit Jean. If you look, LGBT has been dominant throughout history.
So really do we need justification? What if we were the first? I really can't answer those questions other than I am me. I mean with people in the mainstream entertainment world since everyone seems to be so into that now, we have Caitlyn Jenner, Jazz Jennings and Laverne Cox and others. We also have trans porn stars like Bailey Jay, Amy Dailey, Serena Valentine and so on and they make a lot of money.
But society is changing. I have never met a man that would not date Bailey, Serena or Amy. At least privately or where no one knew who the girls were. But that is like escorts too. when I was an escort I flew to LA, SF, SLC, Ogden, Reno, Portland, Seattle, Eugene, Boise and other places. I even got flown to Denver a couple of times. These guys and one woman would fly me there and then pay. I even asked one guy one time during "pillow talk" why? and he told me I had all the right stuff that he liked and could play the whole part of a woman. The sad thing is that he was married and the good thing for me is that he paid. :embarrassed:
But I think it is totally normal. I think in societal norms it is becoming more and more normal for straight cis guys to look at trans porn at the very least. Yes. Sex sells and the very basic human instinct is a really good indication of that. >:-) :embarrassed: I mean even the show Blue Bloods have featured a Drag Queen getting killed and Danny Reagan even admitting that he watched a show that the bar owner was featured in but like any guy, blamed watching it on his wife. ;D
So yeah. We are more normal than not. When right leaning shows are featuring at least drag queens and their lives being important then that is a step in the right direction. When it comes to I am Jazz, what adult does not feel for a child? These are all indicators as to how society is changing. One of my cousins is married to a guy that is on thousand percent redneck. I am family to him and he tells me some stories about being in NOLA and Southern LA and meeting a "girl" down here and how beautiful she was. His wife aka my cousin don't know because he told me not to tell her. :-X But the world is changing. Even those god awful "rednecks". ;D Hell most of the guys that I have fallen for were so called rednecks. Even my BF now could be called a redneck He hunts and he fishes and he listens to country even though I can't stand it but he loves me and we have been together for ten years so something is there besides experimentation. ???
As for you. Do like I did and start your own business or invest in someone else's. Trucking is a good investment and pays off quick if you invest on your own and not the stock market. I have no investors in my business and I do know the business and have a pretty good retirement, pay my drivers really good and above the average pay per mile and look to be in it for a long time with only 7 trucks. Trucking is a really good LGBT friendly career so a lot like me were drawn to it. Where else can you paint your nails and wear short shorts and wedges and shave your legs and underarms and wherever else without anyone finding out. Even law enforcement don't care. I was pulled over twice buy DOT in the same area and was asked the first time with my legs and nail polish what I preferred to be called and then the second time called Ma'am right off the bat. They always pulled me over because I was easy equipment wise. Well most got inspected in that area if they weren't busy. But the important part is that I was always treated with respect. It kind of messed me up though because I would have to log it but oh well. 75 dollars from the company for a less than 15 minute inspection but I had to log 30 minutes. but they would always ask me what times I needed. I will not say where or when or give names.
Now that I in a relationship with a cop I understand why I got pulled over so often and inspected. I was safe and I was courteous and it went on their record as a truck inspection. But times are changing.
We are getting there more and more I believe. I don't go around telling everyone I am trans, but if I am asked I have no problem telling someone that I am. Of course by looking at me if you can't tell I am your either blind, or just plain dumb. I plan on just being a woman soon. Once my surgeries I will not consider myself trans any more. I will be a woman, and that's that.
It is more normal than what you think.
I have to explain a little. I am a little different and I go back and forth. When I am male I am totally masculine and those times are few. when I am female I am totally female. With me there is not in between so I am not non binary. There is no description for me even within the umbrella term of transgender. This is nothing new to me because I have never been normal anyway.
BTW the whole human condition is not normal anyway so why even try to normalize humans and even society? Jung spoke of a collective mentality and the individual. Do you really want to be normal? I do not want to be normalized but rather free to live my life as how I see fit.
It should not be about being normalized but rather society respecting your right to life. I personally will never be normal and don't want to be because then all I am is the equivalent of a herd animal that all thinks the same.
Just something to think about. Yes the hate needs to end within society and acceptance should be instated and respect for fellow human beings and that is all. hell no one accepts everyone else as normal and normal is really a lie. Not one person I know is normal even though they may seem so.
A few (turned out to be not so-)quick thoughts about why people may not be willing to be outed...
For some, being open about it goes against the nature of their dysphoria itself. To ask some people to say they are trans is no different than asking them (in the case of mtf) to put on a suit and tie and grow a mustache. They view themselves as not just a sub category of woman (trans woman vs cis woman), but entirely indistinguishable from cis women. (This is not my own stance, simply a truth for some.)
For many perhaps, they have spent their lives living for other's needs. Worrying about their family's reaction and negative consequences, the suffering of a spouse or children, or any of a number of things. After spending decades putting the needs of others above their own, when they do finally transition it is reasonable they may want to put their own needs first for a change (in the sense that being open may benefit society/other trans people). Being out and being stealth each have their own challenges, but for some being stealth is just easier and more fulfilling.
For who knows how many, they may simple bristle at being associated with the political movement by extnesion. I know, it's so much more than politics, but at the same time politics are nonetheless an inescapable aspect of being trans in today's age, and particularly in the world today politics and political divides are ingrained in everything. Honestly, while my first two thoughts don't apply to me, I'm just trying to put myself in other's shoes, this one bothers me quite a bit. I'm not a political "joiner", never have been. I don't really believe in the "fight for a cause" model of politics, even if I agree with the cause (I won't get into my preferred approach here, its beside the point, but suffice to say I am not apolitical in the slightest either). Yet just since coming out, I've had a few moments that people suddenly shift what they say politically around me worried I'll be offended or disagree (even if they never would have thought that before). Just by saying "I'm trans", it defines me in the mind of other people in a way well beyond my transition. As someone who loves to talk about stuff like political philosophies and random crap, who has always been acknowledged as my own person with diverse opinions, it really bothers me. And honestly, I think it is reasonable for them to make assumptions like that. After all, the most vocal people in the community also tend to be the most activist in the community. The internet warriors on twitter and youtube comments get a lot of attention (and a lot of them aren't even trans, just "allies", which is a word I have a few issues with as well ;D), painting this perception of being trans as a monolithic political entity. (TLDR: I don't like being defined because of association, never have, even if my opinions line up by happenstance. Avoiding that would probably be my #1 reason not to be openly out to the world.)
Also, this:
Quote from: Jenntrans on January 30, 2018, 01:57:58 PM
BTW the whole human condition is not normal anyway so why even try to normalize humans and even society? Jung spoke of a collective mentality and the individual. Do you really want to be normal? I do not want to be normalized but rather free to live my life as how I see fit.
I don't hide it. I'm out to everyone I know.