Susan's Place Transgender Resources

What I am referring to is how deeply ingrained transphobia is in our society.  The instance that made me bring this up occurred last night at work.  I work in a large casino - and I walk into the break room with about 10 other dealers in there at that moment.  A guy ( Scott ) is telling a story and doesn't see me come in he is facing the opposite direction.

Scott is a very nice friendly guy that I have been acquaintances with for many years.  When I came out a few years ago he was cool right from the start and always makes small talk with me.  He is a good guy.

So as I walk in I hear him saying 'yeah she said her name was Emily but she had a deep voice and an adam's apple".
Laughing ensued and I walked in at exactly the wrong moment - too late to stop but soon enough to hear it.

So I make a joke out of it and say 'hey I'm standing right here - at least talk about me behind my back".  Everybody laughed and Scott says 'Kim you are great" and I looked like a good sport.  But I didn't feel so good.  People are used to this stuff.  They see on TV and movies - hear it in comedy acts - jokes told by friends - I just saw an insurance TV commercial recently that was supposed to be funny cuz the guy was wearing a dress.

Back to poor Scott - many people reading this probably think he is a jerk.  He really isn't.  But he grew up in the same society that causes us to have our own internalized transphobia.  No wonder this is so hard for many of us.

I don't like telling this story.  There are many here that are trying to summon the courage to transition or even go out in public.  This doesn't encourage them.  I like to encourage them but I also must be honest.

The silver lining to the story is that it does get easier.  2 years ago this occurrence would have put me in a tail spin for a week.  It would have been so painful and I would ruminate about it.  Does it hurt now?  Yeah a little bit but not much.  I am actually writing about it to make 2 points.

One is the title of this - transphobia and us being the butt of comedy is deeply ingrained in our society.
Second is the silver lining - eventually you get over it.  It stung a little bit now - in the past it would have really hurt.

It wasn't Scott's fault I know he wouldn't intentionally hurt me.  It was living in this world that has portrayed us in this light. 

As I often do I direct your attention to my signature line.

The worst part is that I experience more transphobia here on the site than I do out in the world.

Quote from: Devlyn on February 16, 2019, 09:47:28 PM
The worst part is that I experience more transphobia here on the site than I do out in the world.

^^ this is so true.

I had to develop new coping mechanisms as I transitioned and humor seemed to be the one that stuck because it diffuses awkward situations. There's nothing easy about this.

Quote from: Devlyn on February 16, 2019, 09:47:28 PM
The worst part is that I experience more transphobia here on the site than I do out in the world.

Ok. I am confused. What am l missing here?

Quote from: Devlyn on February 16, 2019, 09:47:28 PM
The worst part is that I experience more transphobia here on the site than I do out in the world.

If any member experiences harassment in the form of transphobia on this site, they need to report it to the Moderators so that there is documentation.
Complaining about it on the open forums does nothing to stop it.

Quote from: Devlyn on February 16, 2019, 09:47:28 PM
The worst part is that I experience more transphobia here on the site than I do out in the world.

Yeah I didn't understand your comment either Devlyn.  There are several ways I could see to interpret it.

To a certain extent we have a responsibility to make others feel at ease and educate them so they can understand what trans really is.

I think Kims response in the situation was laudable. Perhaps the worst thing we can do is create a tense walking on eggshells environment where our transwoman response is to bite someones head off or show over the top hypersensitivity and deep offense.

Most people respond well with rociprical respect( and humor ) sometimes we just need to throw them a bone.

Kirsten[emoji491]

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But it is changing. I am a teacher who presents as male at work. My colleagues know both versions of me but to the best of my knowledge my students have no idea. Anyway last Friday a 14yo female student is delivering a class presentation. Her chosen topic was 'gender equality'. The student delivered a really powerful and passionate presentation which included the line 'gender is a spectrum not a binary'. I was gob-smacked! I asked her later why she had used the line - thinking she had some exposure to the trans experience. She replied that she read a lot because she is passionate about the subject. What staggered me was what she said next when I suggested she held a sophisticated view. "I don't think so Sir, it's just obvious!"

The world is becoming more beautiful because of our children and the work we and our sisters before us have done. Let's not dwell on the negative. Let's focus on the positive.

I have not yet met one person who has been unkind to me because of my gender choice.

Thanks for reading 💋

Si xx

Most people never really had to think about their gender or gender roles so the concept of trans people is quite alien to them and they don't really understand it. That doesn't justify any transphobic behavior of course and many people should use better judgment when speaking about the subject but they are simply not there yet.

And to reflect to Devlyn as well, I totally understand where she is coming from. Just because someone is trans it doesn't mean they are educated about the subject and I've seen and heard many hurtful and transphobic comments from trans people over the years. It's like if I have a condition that requires surgery, that doesn't make me a surgeon.

Better education, especially for the young, is the key I think and we can only hope that someday a new generation will grow up which will handle diversity a lot better.
I feel we live in a strange time. On one hand minority groups are louder than ever and political correctness is everywhere, on the other hand this seems to cause some opposition, as if change is forced on people too quickly and probably with not the best methods.

I think political correctness is an issue because people suddenly feel that they cannot speak their minds or need to suddenly repress themselves. For example the whole "holiday tree" thing. No, it's a Christmas tree. End of story.

My belief is that transphobia as the OP refers to it is two different things,  one is bigotry - there is certainly no shortage of actual dislike and hatred. And the other is lack of understanding or exposure and compassion. This is where I think we need to have the same compassion we seek - the majority of people have never knowingly interacted with a trans person and if they did, that person was likely early in transition or the minority that is over the top and that the media likes to popularize. I have heard the statement many times, usually at work, that I am educating everyone around me on what trans really is. Not through any specific thing other than those around me seeing the change over time.

We do live in an interesting time where we ourselves are also more transparent about being trans, which is different from the past need for "stealth". 

Quote from: Jessica on February 17, 2019, 01:05:12 AM
If any member experiences harassment in the form of transphobia on this site, they need to report it to the Moderators so that there is documentation.
Complaining about it on the open forums does nothing to stop it.

I understand that. I wasn't complaining, just stating a fact. You know as well as I do that some people here do not recognize or accept people who are outside the binary, some here don't recognize crossdressers and transvestites as part of our community. That's a fact.

I don't think pointing out the truth is complaining.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

Let me make this statement, "I hate the term 'political correctness."

Now, I much rather replace that term with "being respectful of others feelings," but as I am passionate about it, I might use this phrasing. So, since Lynne started using the term and Jill spoke about it also, I could see that they might think I am attacking their position. In reality, I am not, but in my exhuberance and passion, I may piss them off with my statement. This happens a lot on Susan's. Someone is passionate, not intending to offend, but offense then happens. So, what is the solution? Being mindful (respectful) of how we say things might work! I try to do this. Of course, being binary minded, I might sometimes forget that not everyone is like me, but I try not to assume they are. So, if I watch my wording to respect the non binary folks, I am being politically correct? Or am I being respectful?

So, I am lost in my own argument here. lol Did I piss off the anti-politically correct side or the anti-transphobic side? Hopefully nobody, hopefully we don't pick sides and we treat each other with kindness and respect. (Oh crap, now I just pissed off the anti-kindness lobby!!! Ahhhh, I'm okay with that!  ;D )
Moni
Please understand that I tried to use a little humor to illustrate my point here. I only have three politically correct non binary folks chained in my basement at any one time, so please cut me some slack.

Devlyn thanks for the clarification - I agree.  I am glad my position on NB folks has become more enlightened.

Moni - I thought it was funny.

Thanks to everyone that posted so far - some very good points.

I work nights right now - going back for a little more sleep. nighty night.

Quote from: HappyMoni on February 17, 2019, 10:35:18 AM
Let me make this statement, "I hate the term 'political correctness."

Now, I much rather replace that term with "being respectful of others feelings," but as I am passionate about it, I might use this phrasing. So, since Lynne started using the term and Jill spoke about it also, I could see that they might think I am attacking their position. In reality, I am not, but in my exhuberance and passion, I may piss them off with my statement. This happens a lot on Susan's. Someone is passionate, not intending to offend, but offense then happens. So, what is the solution? Being mindful (respectful) of how we say things might work! I try to do this. Of course, being binary minded, I might sometimes forget that not everyone is like me, but I try not to assume they are. So, if I watch my wording to respect the non binary folks, I am being politically correct? Or am I being respectful?

So, I am lost in my own argument here. lol Did I piss off the anti-politically correct side or the anti-transphobic side? Hopefully nobody, hopefully we don't pick sides and we treat each other with kindness and respect. (Oh crap, now I just pissed off the anti-kindness lobby!!! Ahhhh, I'm okay with that!  ;D )
Moni
Please understand that I tried to use a little humor to illustrate my point here. I only have three politically correct non binary folks chained in my basement at any one time, so please cut me some slack.

I think I get what you are trying to say and I'm not really fond of the term myself, I used it because I have this feeling that political correctness is becoming more than being respectful. As Jill said, it's going too far in limiting what can be said and sometimes I feel like some people or groups go out of their way to get offended and that does not help our cause at all.

Lynn, I get that some things are taken to extremes and ridiculous situations can result. All too often I think some people consider people on the trans 'spectrum' to be being extreme. Some folks act like it is 'just so much work' to take into account people who do 'that kind of stuff.' Rather than use a little brain power, the haters often dismiss us as 'having an agenda' or 'political correctness' run amuck. We just want basic human rights. Sorry if it makes their brains hurt.
To your point Kim, you handled it very well, I thought. I don't want to not be able to laugh at myself as a trans person. There are some funny things that could be invoked related to us. The thing is, you don't kick someone when they are down. As a group, we have been crapped on, gotten very little respect, and been the punch line to so many mean jokes. Let society give us a little respect and then yeah, maybe I'll be more inclined to be able to take some good natured joking. It would be interesting to see if your friend would have told that 'joke' in front of you. I doubt it. Some folks are into telling mean jokes (dark humor) but that is more of a two way street with both parties participating. (Your Mama jokes come to mind) This wasn't what your person did. I hope to live long enough to appreciate a good 'how many trans people does it take to screw in a light bulb?' joke. Given a little respect, I could see that could be funny.

Quote from: Complete on February 17, 2019, 05:26:52 PM
I received this following statement from a forum member on a pm conversation.

"They are right, without that surgery I cannot f***** like a woman, but what if I have no plans to do that anyway?  Is femininity reduced to an artificially created hole between the legs of a trans woman?"

Is this a transphobic statement or just a veiled expression of hostility?
I fountit totally ignorant and aggressively hurtful.

It seems to me, it is her perspective which is legitimate for her life. She is expressing it in hostile terms, maybe because someone expressed shutting out her type of femininity as legit. Sounds like she is very frustrated with others. It's not my place to judge her for having/not having surgery.

Quote from: HappyMoni on February 17, 2019, 05:42:49 PM
It seems to me, it is her perspective which is legitimate for her life. She is expressing it in hostile terms, maybe because someone expressed shutting out her type of femininity as legit. Sounds like she is very frustrated with others. It's not my place to judge her for having/not having surgery.

I think you are right.  I thought about that too. That this was an expression of frustration at having been attacked, b (perhaps), for not having srs. I can certainly understand that because,  afterall,  it is up to each one of us to define our own understanding of ourselves,  no one else.
I just think it is important to understand that all of us have different needs.

Quote from: HappyMoni on February 17, 2019, 10:35:18 AM
Let me make this statement, "I hate the term 'political correctness."

Now, I much rather replace that term with "being respectful of others feelings," but as I am passionate about it, I might use this phrasing. So, since Lynne started using the term and Jill spoke about it also, I could see that they might think I am attacking their position. In reality, I am not, but in my exhuberance and passion, I may piss them off with my statement. This happens a lot on Susan's. Someone is passionate, not intending to offend, but offense then happens. So, what is the solution? Being mindful (respectful) of how we say things might work! I try to do this. Of course, being binary minded, I might sometimes forget that not everyone is like me, but I try not to assume they are. So, if I watch my wording to respect the non binary folks, I am being politically correct? Or am I being respectful?

So, I am lost in my own argument here. lol Did I piss off the anti-politically correct side or the anti-transphobic side? Hopefully nobody, hopefully we don't pick sides and we treat each other with kindness and respect. (Oh crap, now I just pissed off the anti-kindness lobby!!! Ahhhh, I'm okay with that!  ;D )
Moni
Please understand that I tried to use a little humor to illustrate my point here. I only have three politically correct non binary folks chained in my basement at any one time, so please cut me some slack.

You are quite right that political correctness  is really about being respectful. I won't say its never gone too far, who's to judge that? Usually when some one spouts off about it going to far, what they really mean is "I can't say whatever hurtful, ignorant, or bigoted thing I used to say without getting called out for it". 

Quote from: HappyMoni on February 17, 2019, 04:16:49 PM
Lynn, I get that some things are taken to extremes and ridiculous situations can result. All too often I think some people consider people on the trans 'spectrum' to be being extreme. Some folks act like it is 'just so much work' to take into account people who do 'that kind of stuff.' Rather than use a little brain power, the haters often dismiss us as 'having an agenda' or 'political correctness' run amuck. We just want basic human rights. Sorry if it makes their brains hurt.
To your point Kim, you handled it very well, I thought. I don't want to not be able to laugh at myself as a trans person. There are some funny things that could be invoked related to us. The thing is, you don't kick someone when they are down. As a group, we have been crapped on, gotten very little respect, and been the punch line to so many mean jokes. Let society give us a little respect and then yeah, maybe I'll be more inclined to be able to take some good natured joking. It would be interesting to see if your friend would have told that 'joke' in front of you. I doubt it. Some folks are into telling mean jokes (dark humor) but that is more of a two way street with both parties participating. (Your Mama jokes come to mind) This wasn't what your person did. I hope to live long enough to appreciate a good 'how many trans people does it take to screw in a light bulb?' joke. Given a little respect, I could see that could be funny.

So how many trans people does it take to screw in a light bulb? I think we can tell the jokes about ourselves.

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Quote from: TonyaW on February 17, 2019, 08:59:40 PM

You are quite right that political correctness  is really about being respectful. I won't say its never gone too far, who's to judge that? Usually when some one spouts off about it going to far, what they really mean is "I can't say whatever hurtful, ignorant, or bigoted thing I used to say without getting called out for it". 


So how many trans people does it take to screw in a light bulb? I think we can tell the jokes about ourselves.

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I think you are right @TonyaW having a sense of humour is important. Many of us take things very seriously and I guess that is expected because for many of us it is a very serious subject. My partner and I have had a good laugh at things I have tried that didn't work or situations we find ourselves in. It helps to relieve the tension is some cases and build the relationship.

@HappyMoni I have to agree with much of what you say...being politically correct can end up badly interpreted or misinterpreted. Writing can be such an imperfect way of communicating and things so easily get lost or their true intention totally missed. I don't think Aussies or Kiwi's for that matter are renown for out political correctness and tend to call a spade a spade.


I saw a comment the other day on another platform where and Aussie guy said "I don't get the whole trans thing but then who am I to judge being a 40+ balding idiot" he went on to say "you do you" and respect costs nothing....he was attacked for saying he didn't get the "whole trans thing" where in actual fact I think he was a pretty decent guy as he was all about everyone being who they are and other respecting them. In the end he got annoyed with the people arguing and it disintegrated into a slanging match.

Just my 2cents worth

Liz

Quote from: HappyMoni on February 17, 2019, 04:16:49 PM
To your point Kim, you handled it very well, I thought. I don't want to not be able to laugh at myself as a trans person. There are some funny things that could be invoked related to us. The thing is, you don't kick someone when they are down. As a group, we have been crapped on, gotten very little respect, and been the punch line to so many mean jokes. Let society give us a little respect and then yeah, maybe I'll be more inclined to be able to take some good natured joking. It would be interesting to see if your friend would have told that 'joke' in front of you. I doubt it.

I agree I doubt he would have started the story if I was sitting in front of him.  That's kind of the point.  He is a good guy but he has grown up in this world where we are considered a joke.  He is part of societal conditioning and it did not occur to him that the joke could be hurtful. 

This same societal conditioning is why most of us including myself have to overcome our own internalized transphobia.  We have been conditioned to think there is something wrong with us and to be embarrassed.  If not then why would we all have needed to come out of the closet?  What were we in the closet for if we weren't hiding and why would we be hiding if we didn't think there was a reason to hide.

Where is the line between political correctness and being over sensitive?  I don't know.  We shouldn't go around acting like victims that is not the way to get people to like you.  But on the other hand we don't deserve to be looked at as a joke. 

And back to the 'hero' of our story Scott.  Is it his fault?  Maybe a tiny bit but he doesn't know any better - he is a decent guy that was conditioned to think we are to be laughed at.  Someday in the future hopefully it will be as distasteful as telling a racial joke.

Quote from: TonyaW on February 17, 2019, 08:59:40 PM
So how many trans people does it take to screw in change a light bulb?

One to make the change, and everyone else to tell them to wait a little while longer "just to be sure."




Couldn't resist.

Quote from: TonyaW on February 17, 2019, 08:59:40 PM
...

So how many trans people does it take to screw in a light bulb?
...

Two, but you need a really big lightbulb.  >:-)

Quote from: Devlyn on February 17, 2019, 09:57:52 PM
Two, but you need a really big lightbulb.  >:-)

You need two trannies. One to change the actual bulb and the other one to discuss it endlessly on Susans Place ( ha ha ha ha ha)[emoji362][emoji362]

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 :D  now that's funny - guilty as charged  :D

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on February 17, 2019, 10:25:07 PM
You need two trannies. One to change the actual bulb and the other one to discuss it endlessly on Susans Place ( ha ha ha ha ha)[emoji362][emoji362]

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Pretty sure someone needs to post  pictures also.  I never even once took a selfie before transitioning.

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Quote from: TonyaW on February 17, 2019, 11:03:44 PM
Pretty sure someone needs to post  pictures also.  I never even once took a selfie before transitioning.

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Get up on a chair, change a lightbulb and send in the photograph !

Kim, with your permission?

I think you all are missing the point here. It only takes one trans person to make a burned out light bulb shine bright again. The hard part is taking the new bulb out of the package (which has been stored in the closet forever.) You have to agonize over changing the bulb for years,  slowly tell all your friends you are changing the bulb, have some people look at you like you are crazy for changing the bulb, go out buy a whole new set of lampshades for the bulb, and then you change the bulb, knowing not all loved ones will see the light from the beautiful new you bulb .

Not sure if this joke makes me laugh or cry.

Quote from: HappyMoni on February 18, 2019, 08:38:04 AM
Kim, with your permission?

I think you all are missing the point here. It only takes one trans person to make a burned out light bulb shine bright again. The hard part is taking the new bulb out of the package (which has been stored in the closet forever.) You have to agonize over changing the bulb for years,  slowly tell all your friends you are changing the bulb, have some people look at you like you are crazy for changing the bulb, go out buy a whole new set of lampshades for the bulb, and then you change the bulb, knowing not all loved ones will see the light from the beautiful new you bulb .

Not sure if this joke makes me laugh or cry.

Laugh or cry?

Both or either, depending on how long its been since you made the decision to change the bulb.

I was going to suggest the short answer is just one but it didn't happen unless she puts on a new skirt and posts a selfie with it.

Or a darker take,

We don't. Most of us have been in the closet long enough that we're used to the dark

Yes, sorry Kim if I helped re route your thread in direction you'd rather it didn't go.

I'll stop now.

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Im sorry I didnt mean to derail a most important thread.  Making light of being trans in the wrong way is not such a good idea because I know first hand its not always a light situation - its often quite heavy in fact.

Most of us dont want others walking on eggshells around us but at the same time being fully open with  the people we know and trust & love often does reap the reward of exclusion, disrespect, mistrust and disdain.

It is true it is so ingrained. We as trans can only give so much positive guidance and we carry the burden of being good ambassadors for other trans people. Rising above the discrimination is not always easy.

Hopefully the good example set by many trans individuals living out of the closet lives and educating others is turning the tide.

I know Kim and Moni have passed on more support in this life than they have recieved.

Sorry guys bad jokes are my weakness.

Kirsten.

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Those were all amazing replies.  I am all about both - making jokes even about tough stuff but also pointing out the injustice in this world.  I write most of the things I do here with those that are struggling and still in the closet in mind.

At the same time I do think it is important to be ambassadors and I make a lot of effort to live as such.  Part of that is being able to laugh at ourselves.  If we are too self righteous and holier than thou that is off putting.

Laughing at ourselves and taking topics seriously can go hand in hand.

Thanks for the great input - both funny and serious. 

I continue to be bothered by how deeply ingrained this is in our society I see it all the time.  But I can usually laugh.
I laughed at my best friend's funeral -  that is the nature of life - laughter and tears.

The irony of it all and the absurd situations we find  ourselves in can be hilarious.

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Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on February 18, 2019, 11:24:06 AM

Sorry guys bad jokes are my weakness.

Not much of a weakness.  I am of the opinion life is far too important to take too seriously.

Quote from: randim on February 18, 2019, 02:39:51 PM
Not much of a weakness.  I am of the opinion life is far too important to take too seriously.

Eh - I live on both sides.  I think taking things seriously is important to move forward and yet taking EVERYTHING seriously ALL the time is no way to live.  To me a healthy dose of both is a good balance.

Quote from: KimOct on February 18, 2019, 03:29:16 PM
Eh - I live on both sides.  I think taking things seriously is important to move forward and yet taking EVERYTHING seriously ALL the time is no way to live.  To me a healthy dose of both is a good balance.

Kim, are you serious? Are you joking? Are you seriously joking? Am I understanding the vast geo-political implications of the questions I just asked? As you can see I am a terminal wise ass. I like to try to lighten a tense mood with humor. Sometimes my attempts at humor go over like a fart in church, but I balance it out by getting passionately upset other times. Life is one giant emotional playground. I am thankful to have had my eyes opened to my emotions through transition. I cried today when Opie was telling Pa about his friend and his Pa didn't believe him. The first 20 times I saw that episode of Andy Griffith, I had no tears I could find. Now I cry and laugh at myself for doing it. Life is good.

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on February 18, 2019, 11:24:06 AM
I
It is true it is so ingrained. We as trans can only give so much positive guidance and we carry the burden of being good ambassadors for other trans people. Rising above the discrimination is not always easy.

Hopefully the good example set by many trans individuals living out of the closet lives and educating others is turning the tide.

I know Kim and Moni have passed on more support in this life than they have recieved.

Sorry guys bad jokes are my weakness.

Kirsten.

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Kirsten, if Kim doesn't care, don't apologize. Your bad jokes are awesome! lol As for support, thank you for the kind words, but I have gotten amazing support from most everyone I know, including Susan's. I am very thankful.

I was really uplifted the other day. An African American friend I have made a Black Lives Matter display.  I didn't look that closely at it until she brought me over to it. It celebrated the values that would or should be positive aspirations for that movement. I was pretty moved when I saw that two of the values mentioned were "Trans Lives Matter" and "Queer Lives Matter." We had previously spoken about the black community having more of a problem with trans folks than some other groups. If she didn't know me, I wonder if that display would have happened. Ya never know when you pick up another ally. This same friend brought me to a play about Jackie Robinson. I saw so many parallels in the treatment of black people and trans folks today. I was moved by the class with which Jackie dealt with some really horrible abuse.

Quote from: HappyMoni on February 18, 2019, 05:28:41 PM
Kim, are you serious? Are you joking? Are you seriously joking? Am I understanding the vast geo-political implications of the questions I just asked? As you can see I am a terminal wise ass. I like to try to lighten a tense mood with humor. Sometimes my attempts at humor go over like a fart in church, but I balance it out by getting passionately upset other times. Life is one giant emotional playground. I am thankful to have had my eyes opened to my emotions through transition. I cried today when Opie was telling Pa about his friend and his Pa didn't believe him. The first 20 times I saw that episode of Andy Griffith, I had no tears I could find. Now I cry and laugh at myself for doing it. Life is good.
Kirsten, if Kim doesn't care, don't apologize. Your bad jokes are awesome! lol As for support, thank you for the kind words, but I have gotten amazing support from most everyone I know, including Susan's. I am very thankful.

I was really uplifted the other day. An African American friend I have made a Black Lives Matter display.  I didn't look that closely at it until she brought me over to it. It celebrated the values that would or should be positive aspirations for that movement. I was pretty moved when I saw that two of the values mentioned were "Trans Lives Matter" and "Queer Lives Matter." We had previously spoken about the black community having more of a problem with trans folks than some other groups. If she didn't know me, I wonder if that display would have happened. Ya never know when you pick up another ally. This same friend brought me to a play about Jackie Robinson. I saw so many parallels in the treatment of black people and trans folks today. I was moved by the class with which Jackie dealt with some really horrible abuse.

Moni - you are like a stream of bats piss.

You shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is darkness[emoji1660]

With love & friendship, Kirsten.

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Moni and Kirsten - I am thrilled to have you both in my thread.  It's a love fest  :D  Keep the bad jokes and wise words coming.

Bat piss ?? LMAO  :D

Moni - I love the Black Lives Matter analogy even if a segment of that movement doesn't care for us.  There's no rule you can't be the first to show love to someone else.  I am all about supporting any marginalized group if we don't who will?

Funny how having to deal with being trans forces us to think of others in marginalised groups. Id like to think it opens our eyes and makes us better people.

"How can we see to remove the splinter from our brothers eye when we have a log in our own eye."

Hopefully as trans individuals we dont succumb to judging others as much as the general public does.

Now you mention it Moni the black population often has a natural understanding of LGBTQI not because they are but because they know what it is to be on the outer for no legitimate reason.

If you like emotional playgrounds and black people. I personally have some black mates and like laughing till I cry - have you checked out- Nayyirah Waheed ?

She ticks all the boxes- 1.she's black 2.she's a shiela 3. she's a lesbian 4. she's from Africa 5. she's a dynamite poet.

When I was going through my first 12 months of estrogen HRT in 2016 I developed a craving for poetry.

Nayyirah Waheed's book of poetry " SALT " fed my taste for agony and extacy.

Her words are boiled down to the bare essence and really pack a wallop. It will bring tears. Some of the poetry feels like a silk sledgehammer.

You will enjoy being sliced by her rapier pen.

P.S. I want to hear the odd "went down like fart in church joke" from you too - be nice to me though I might get precious.

Kirsten xx [emoji182]

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Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on February 18, 2019, 09:34:13 PM
Moni - you are like a stream of bats piss.

You shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is darkness[emoji1660]

With love & friendship, Kirsten.

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That was one of Shaw's!

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Quote from: TonyaW on February 19, 2019, 07:09:25 AM
That was one of Shaw's!

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Youre onto it !

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Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on February 19, 2019, 05:29:50 AM
Funny how having to deal with being trans forces us to think of others in marginalised groups. Id like to think it opens our eyes and makes us better people.

"How can we see to remove the splinter from our brothers eye when we have a log in our own eye."

Hopefully as trans individuals we dont succumb to judging others as much as the general public does.

YES !!

Quote from: HappyMoni on February 18, 2019, 05:28:41 PM
Kim, are you serious? Are you joking? Are you seriously joking? Am I understanding the vast geo-political implications of the questions I just asked? As you can see I am a terminal wise ass. I like to try to lighten a tense mood with humor. Sometimes my attempts at humor go over like a fart in church, but I balance it out by getting passionately upset other times. Life is one giant emotional playground. I am thankful to have had my eyes opened to my emotions through transition. I cried today when Opie was telling Pa about his friend and his Pa didn't believe him. The first 20 times I saw that episode of Andy Griffith, I had no tears I could find. Now I cry and laugh at myself for doing it. Life is good.
Kirsten, if Kim doesn't care, don't apologize. Your bad jokes are awesome! lol As for support, thank you for the kind words, but I have gotten amazing support from most everyone I know, including Susan's. I am very thankful.

Bingo!  I think Kim's coworker was doing what much of humanity does around topics they are uncomfortable with...make it a joke or use humor to mask it.  Humor is a tool for touching the taboos.  As Kim notes on her byline; we are often dealing with our own internalized transphobia.  While we have huge external obstacles the ones we often agonize about here are the internal struggles to understand and accept ourselves.  Devlyn's correct in that many of us use these pages and shared space as a sounding board and a place to work out our internal struggles that include homophobia and transphobia.  Similar to dealing with racism we cannot expect people of color to fix that and it is up to us to reconsider what bigotry and prejudice we may harbor and need to work on.

Some of my early fears about being transgender had to do with the people I met who were OUT way before I was.  They seemed way messed up and over the top...much like me today ;)

That is a great point and I hate admitting this but ....  when I was first transitioning I was uncomfortable with the first trans people I came in contact with IRL.  I looked at them as being weird.  How messed up is that?  I was looking at people as weird that are dealing with the same issue that I was.

That is some serious internalized transphobia.  Over time I have learned that they are people - just like me. 

Quote from: jill610 on February 17, 2019, 08:09:38 AM
I think political correctness is an issue because people suddenly feel that they cannot speak their minds or need to suddenly repress themselves. For example the whole "holiday tree" thing. No, it's a Christmas tree. End of story.

"Political correctness" is just an acknowledgement that the language we use has an impact on others. Why not be more inclusive? People should repress their biased and bigoted speech so I'm not seeing the problem.



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Quote from: Dana Thompson on February 19, 2019, 03:53:56 PM

"Political correctness" is just an acknowledgement that the language we use has an impact on others. Why not be more inclusive? People should repress their biased and bigoted speech so I'm not seeing the problem.



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This is going to come across a little rough (the perils of the internet), but I completely disagree. This is exactly what turns people against others - what was out in the open now just boils beneath the surface. This is what's gets people labeled as snowflakes. We are all different and should not pretend everyone is the same as the next.

Open and honest discourse is what leads to change and progress. If people don't speak their mind out of fear of offending someone then tomorrow will be exactly the same as today. If you are offended by what other people think or say then personally, as an adult, grow up. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and the idea of "political correctness" has gotten so out of hand that what was once merely an attempt to not be hurtful has gone overboard.

As examples,

a Christmas tree is a Christmas tree. Don't tell me I'm offending you with my Christianity by not calling it a holiday tree. Yes, I am aware that it was a Nordic pagan symbol that became intertwined with Catholicism as it expanded into the Nordic areas, but today it has religious meaning.

I was recently informed that "folks" is a non inclusive term exclusionary of gender non-binary people and I should instead use the term "folkx". Wait, what???? In no dictionary does that show up.

This is what people think when you say we should be "politically correct". It has reached the point where it's almost farcical.

Inclusion does not have to mean political correctness. It is the opposite of exclusion, it does not mean people can't hold and express opinions, even if they are offensive. And as a liberal trans woman I don't think it should...

Quote from: jill610 on February 19, 2019, 04:51:32 PM
This is going to come across a little rough (the perils of the internet), but I completely disagree. This is exactly what turns people against others - what was out in the open now just boils beneath the surface. This is what's gets people labeled as snowflakes. We are all different and should not pretend everyone is the same as the next.

Open and honest discourse is what leads to change and progress. If people don't speak their mind out of fear of offending someone then tomorrow will be exactly the same as today. If you are offended by what other people think or say then personally, as an adult, grow up. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and the idea of "political correctness" has gotten so out of hand that what was once merely an attempt to not be hurtful has gone overboard.

As examples,

a Christmas tree is a Christmas tree. Don't tell me I'm offending you with my Christianity by not calling it a holiday tree. Yes, I am aware that it was a Nordic pagan symbol that became intertwined with Catholicism as it expanded into the Nordic areas, but today it has religious meaning.

I was recently informed that "folks" is a non inclusive term exclusionary of gender non-binary people and I should instead use the term "folkx". Wait, what???? In no dictionary does that show up.

This is what people think when you say we should be "politically correct". It has reached the point where it's almost farcical.

Inclusion does not have to mean political correctness. It is the opposite of exclusion, it does not mean people can't hold and express opinions, even if they are offensive. And as a liberal trans woman I don't think it should...

This is what you think, don't generalize it to all people. Its an expression of incredible privilege to claim that "If you are offended by what other people think or say then personally, as an adult, grow up." Words have power and the many, many, microaggressions encountered by people everyday serve to further marginalize and disrespect those not part of the dominant culture. Everything already caters to white christian people in the US. Why do you need to claim some kind of martyrdom because people ask you to say Holiday instead of Christmas?


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Quote from: Dana Thompson on February 19, 2019, 03:53:56 PM

"Political correctness" is just an acknowledgement that the language we use has an impact on others. Why not be more inclusive? People should repress their biased and bigoted speech so I'm not seeing the problem.

If you look up where "political correctness" came from you will find it was a tool used to control discourse, particularly from groups the reigning ideology wanted kept quiet. Even the term - "political correctness" - suggests absolutely nothing to do with the avoidance of offense and everything to do with keeping people in line politically and ideologically. Which is what it is now being used for, as ever, and has nothing to do with "politeness" at all.

You will find many more people taking issue with political correctness as they begin to see just how insidiously it is being used to take away the voice of the individual. Words do indeed have power and if you think you can control those words, or control thought by suppressing them, you are sorely mistaken.

Semantics can lead to nasty fights ( I am not saying that applies here but in general )  I think that is the case with the term 'political correctness'.  The phrase has evolved in my opinion to have a negative bias. 

Political correctness is usually implying that someone is being overly sensitive or a snowflake if they have a problem with something.  And those complaining about the need to be politically correct are annoyed that they feel that they can't speak their mind freely.

Anyone has the 'right' to speak as they wish - the Nazis the KKK whoever it is.  But somethings are just wrong.
The analogy about the Christmas tree has merit.  I understand it is just an analogy.  But it is in fact a CHRISTMAS tree
Just as a menorah is a menorah etc etc.

Being polite and respectful and empathetic is not about being 'politically correct'.  I have 3 kids 2 are severely autistic. How many times have I heard jokes about the 'short bus' referring to the smaller buses that usually transport special needs kids to school.  It hurts every time I hear it or when someone uses the word retarded.

Am I a snowflake?  I hardly think so.  I am tough as nails if you ask me.  I could write pages of the crap I have went through and overcome in my life.  I have had cancer, heart attacks, multiple layoffs, autistic kids, divorce, bankruptcy, death of loved ones.  I have survived but words do hurt because it speaks about us and to us.

Should we take everything as an attack? Should we have persecution complexes? Should we think that people have to walk on eggshells?  No of course not.  But people should learn that they should be more respectful of other people's beliefs, sexual or gender orientation, modes of worship and race or culture.

Is that being politically correct?  No I just think it is being a decent person.

It might be nice if people were polite and said only nice things. But they don't and in a free society they do have the right to be impolite and to say mean things.

I would not want to live in a society where I was not permitted to dislike, disagree or have an occasional rant or spicy joke about something. The current state of political correctness however is on the cusp of making those things jailable offenses in my country. It is already a jailable offense to be particularly "offensive" online in the UK. Say you don't agree or like something and you will be labelled as ____phobic and immediately shut down. The "victim" of this "offense" only has to say they were offended by something you said and the law - not you - will determine what your intent was. A mortal insult to the notion of a "free country".

PC has indeed gone too far. It is now being used to suppress and oppress. Small wonder it is becoming so loathed.

All should remember that words are what allow us to release pressure, clear air and to solve problems without violence. When you take away the right to have words, including mean ones - then you have just made violence ultimately the only and inevitable outcome. And I would much rather have words - even mean ones - than real, actual violence any day of the week.   

Is anyone still wondering why politics has become so polarized and intolerance of opinions so easily turns to violence these days? It just might have something to do with how suffocating political correctness has become.

Quote from: Kylo on February 19, 2019, 05:04:44 PM
If you look up where "political correctness" came from you will find it was a tool used to control discourse, particularly from groups the reigning ideology wanted kept quiet.

This is not a true statement and even if it was, the origins of a phrase do not define its current meaning. Words and phrases can be used to both empower and denigrate depending on the context and intent of the speaker.

Quote from: Kylo on February 19, 2019, 05:04:44 PMEven the term - "political correctness" - suggests absolutely nothing to do with the avoidance of offense and everything to do with keeping people in line politically and ideologically. Which is what it is now being used for, as ever, and has nothing to do with "politeness" at all.

You will find many more people taking issue with political correctness as they begin to see just how insidiously it is being used to take away the voice of the individual. Words do indeed have power and if you think you can control those words, or control thought by suppressing them, you are sorely mistaken.

Again, you are trying to make a semantic argument about a phrase while ignoring the reality. People do have the right to think what they want, and they do have the right to say what they want. Freedom of speech allows them to do so without government interference. It does not free them from consequences. Say what you want to say, it's your right, but I don't have to acknowledge it. Why, when all that is being asked is that a person is inclusive in their phrasing and terminology do people feel the need to claim that the "politically correct" are trying to control their thoughts?

I am done engaging on this topic. You have both been on this board far longer than me and I do not want to get into this type of discussion here.

Quote from: KimOct on February 19, 2019, 05:10:07 PM
Semantics can lead to nasty fights ( I am not saying that applies here but in general )  I think that is the case with the term 'political correctness'.  The phrase has evolved in my opinion to have a negative bias. 

Political correctness is usually implying that someone is being overly sensitive or a snowflake if they have a problem with something.  And those complaining about the need to be politically correct are annoyed that they feel that they can't speak their mind freely.

Anyone has the 'right' to speak as they wish - the Nazis the KKK whoever it is.  But somethings are just wrong.
The analogy about the Christmas tree has merit.  I understand it is just an analogy.  But it is in fact a CHRISTMAS tree
Just as a menorah is a menorah etc etc.

Being polite and respectful and empathetic is not about being 'politically correct'.  I have 3 kids 2 are severely autistic. How many times have I heard jokes about the 'short bus' referring to the smaller buses that usually transport special needs kids to school.  It hurts every time I hear it or when someone uses the word retarded.

Am I a snowflake?  I hardly think so.  I am tough as nails if you ask me.  I could write pages of the crap I have went through and overcome in my life.  I have had cancer, heart attacks, multiple layoffs, autistic kids, divorce, bankruptcy, death of loved ones.  I have survived but words do hurt because it speaks about us and to us.

Should we take everything as an attack? Should we have persecution complexes? Should we think that people have to walk on eggshells?  No of course not.  But people should learn that they should be more respectful of other people's beliefs, sexual or gender orientation, modes of worship and race or culture.

Is that being politically correct?  No I just think it is being a decent person.

I'm sorry, I said I was done engaging, but I just saw this. I appreciate your comment. I agree with how you feel when people refer to students with special needs that way. I am actually a special ed educator. I think that many people would argue with you that you are being "politically correct" by objecting to things like the word retarded. However, you see it's impact, you feel it's effect so you rebel against its use. This is good! Why then would say you are not "politically correct?" Whats wrong with that? You are asking people to be careful in their use of words, to consider its effect on others. That's all that "politically correct" phrasing is, its being a decent person.

QuoteQuote from: Kylo on Today at 05:04:44 pm
If you look up where "political correctness" came from you will find it was a tool used to control discourse, particularly from groups the reigning ideology wanted kept quiet.

This is not a true statement and even if it was, the origins of a phrase do not define its current meaning. Words and phrases can be used to both empower and denigrate depending on the context and intent of the speaker. ~Dana

Actually,  Kyle's is absolutely true. Consider: l believe Donald Trump is the best president since Ronald Reagan. I believe identity politics is the absolute antithesis of American ideals which actually divides us as a peoptand a United nation. I believe the demcratic party,  the party of my parents,  had been hijacked by socialists in their efforts to "equalize" us all. Just like the have done in Venezuela, where the political rulers get rich and the middle class has been exterminated.
How's that  for political correctness?

Quote from: Complete on February 19, 2019, 07:19:54 PM
Actually,  Kyle's is absolutely true. Consider: l believe Donald Trump is the best president since Ronald Reagan. I believe identity politics is the absolute antithesis of American ideals which actually divides us as a peoptand a United nation. I believe the demcratic party,  the party of my parents,  had been hijacked by socialists in their efforts to "equalize" us all. Just like the have done in Venezuela, where the political rulers get rich and the middle class has been exterminated.
How's that  for political correctness?

@Kylo @jill610 enjoy your allies.


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Can we go back to bat piss please. It was such a warm place and it made me moist.

Moni

I see the passions rising. I hope we stay respectful. I like this thread.

Quote from: HappyMoni on February 19, 2019, 08:03:53 PM
Can we go back to bat piss please. It was such a warm place and it made me moist.

Moni

I see the passions rising. I hope we stay respectful. I like this thread.

[emoji4] you're right of course HappyMoni. Bat piss it is! [emoji14]


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Quote from: Dana Thompson on February 19, 2019, 08:11:00 PM
[emoji4] you're right of course HappyMoni. Bat piss it is! [emoji14]


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Thanks Dana, I knew I could count on you! Beertender, bat piss for the house, it's on me. Which reminds me, I need a shower.

Moist LMAO  you are a goof.  I love goofs.

I could easily get into a political debate but I tread lightly in that arena here because that is not the focus of this forum.
Unfortunately politics does impact us as a group and if you disagree I would argue that you are not paying attention but I digress.

Everyone has the right to speak their mind and beliefs and I would protest for the right of a hate group to have freedom of speech.  I may despise what they say but I defend their right to say it.  On the other hand I WILL NOT surrender my rights either.  All I ask in return is to be treated with respect.

And to attempt to bring this thread back to the point I think making us as a group the butt of jokes is hurtful and insensitive but not necessarily mean.  What's the difference?  Because as I said it is so deeply ingrained. 

Remember our hero Scott from earlier in the story.  Is Scott mean?  Absolutely not.  Is he insensitive? Yeah I think that's fair.  It's because he has been conditioned to think this stuff is funny.  But it hurts.  I laughed along to let him off the hook but it didn't feel good.  The silver lining in the story is that all of the people I work with have been changed because I worked with them.  I know I am well liked by most and they will take that with them after we part.  They will know a transgender woman that they like and that will move the needle forward in society.  But we are not there yet.

Quote from: KimOct on February 19, 2019, 08:19:55 PM
Moist LMAO  you are a goof.  I love goofs.

I could easily get into a political debate but I tread lightly in that arena here because that is not the focus of this forum.
Unfortunately politics does impact us as a group and if you disagree I would argue that you are not paying attention but I digress.

Everyone has the right to speak their mind and beliefs and I would protest for the right of a hate group to have freedom of speech.  I may despise what they say but I defend their right to say it.  On the other hand I WILL NOT surrender my rights either.  All I ask in return is to be treated with respect.

And to attempt to bring this thread back to the point I think making us as a group the butt of jokes is hurtful and insensitive but not necessarily mean.  What's the difference?  Because as I said it is so deeply ingrained. 

Remember our hero Scott from earlier in the story.  Is Scott mean?  Absolutely not.  Is he insensitive? Yeah I think that's fair.  It's because he has been conditioned to think this stuff is funny.  But it hurts.  I laughed along to let him off the hook but it didn't feel good.  The silver lining in the story is that all of the people I work with have been changed because I worked with them.  I know I am well liked by most and they will take that with them after we part.  They will know a transgender woman that they like and that will move the needle forward in society.  But we are not there yet.

I've been called a goof and been compared to bat piss. Please everyone, don't ruin this for me by fighting. These are the nicest things anyone has ever said to me.  ;D

Seriously, we have the right to do a lot of things. It doesn't mean we should. I personally have two things in mind for this life. One, get pleasure where I can. Two, leave the world a little better for me having been here. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove they don't deserve it. Through transition, I have mellowed a great deal. I get more pleasure out of having friendly conversations now. I don't seem to have the need to win any arguments. There is a line from the movie Harvey where Jimmy Stewart remembers a saying his mother had. "Elwood, in this life you can be ever so smart, or ever so pleasant. I prefer the latter." I love that movie. Kim, you handled Scott wonderfully, even though it hurt you.

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on February 19, 2019, 05:29:50 AM


Now you mention it Moni the black population often has a natural understanding of LGBTQI not because they are but because they know what it is to be on the outer for no legitimate reason.


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You are so very right!  My longest standing and closest cis friend/supporter is a black woman from Jamaica.  She just gets it!  No long explanations required!

Quote from: HappyMoni on February 19, 2019, 08:03:53 PM
Can we go back to bat piss please. It was such a warm place and it made me moist.

Moni

I see the passions rising. I hope we stay respectful. I like this thread.

Hmmm.....yes! Bat piss, yummy. ...NOT!
Gee.....did l say something politically incorrect?

Quote from: HappyMoni on February 19, 2019, 08:43:03 PM
I've been called a goof and been compared to bat piss. Please everyone, don't ruin this for me by fighting. These are the nicest things anyone has ever said to me.  ;D

Seriously, we have the right to do a lot of things. It doesn't mean we should. I personally have two things in mind for this life. One, get pleasure where I can. Two, leave the world a little better for me having been here. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove they don't deserve it. Through transition, I have mellowed a great deal. I get more pleasure out of having friendly conversations now. I don't seem to have the need to win any arguments. There is a line from the movie Harvey where Jimmy Stewart remembers a saying his mother had. "Elwood, in this life you can be ever so smart, or ever so pleasant. I prefer the latter." I love that movie. Kim, you handled Scott wonderfully, even though it hurt you.

Moni - I know that you know that goof is a term of endearment.  Glad I could flatter you  :D  As far as bat piss to each their own  ;D

I agree with you completely and aspire to your life goals.  Also I have noticed the change in my demeanor since transition.  I am fiercely dedicated about trans rights and acceptance but I really enjoy just having pleasant conversation with other women.  On the whole they are so much more comfortable with us than guys are.

Quote from: KimOct on February 19, 2019, 08:55:24 PM
Moni - I know that you know that goof is a term of endearment.  Glad I could flatter you  :D  As far as bat piss to each their own  ;D

I agree with you completely and aspire to your life goals.  Also I have noticed the change in my demeanor since transition.  I am fiercely dedicated about trans rights and acceptance but I really enjoy just having pleasant conversation with other women.  On the whole they are so much more comfortable with us than guys are.

Kim, of course you called me a goof as a term of endearment. Once I get to know you better, I'll have a few choice words for you too.  :P :o ;D

I would modify your last sentence slightly to reflect my experience. I think guys take more time to get comfortable with us. Women I work with, mostly, were easily accepting. The guys are more cautious. My theory is that when one is first out, guys are unsure because they are protecting their status. Heck, there isn't a big track record for being around newly out trans folk. Maybe they fear being thought of as less than masculine or gay for being too comfortable with us. After a while they can come around. I stopped in a hallway recently, reading something. A guy I worked with yelled up the hallway, "Hey little girl, are you lost?" Besides making my day, that kind of acceptance and public display wouldn't have happened a year or two ago. In a sense, it is more valuable to me because it was harder to get. Your friend Scott might have a bit of insecurity himself. Telling crap stories like he did might be his way to shore up his masculine 'cred.' Thinking back, when I was younger I was so fearful of being found out, I made those nasty "cred' acquiring comments? Still, that kind of stuff hurts, right?

So, Complete, I do have a question for you. Is that you in the boat?

Quote from: HappyMoni on February 20, 2019, 08:27:20 AM
Kim, of course you called me a goof as a term of endearment. Once I get to know you better, I'll have a few choice words for you too.  [emoji14] :o ;D

I would modify your last sentence slightly to reflect my experience. I think guys take more time to get comfortable with us. Women I work with, mostly, were easily accepting. The guys are more cautious. My theory is that when one is first out, guys are unsure because they are protecting their status. Heck, there isn't a big track record for being around newly out trans folk. Maybe they fear being thought of as less than masculine or gay for being too comfortable with us. After a while they can come around. I stopped in a hallway recently, reading something. A guy I worked with yelled up the hallway, "Hey little girl, are you lost?" Besides making my day, that kind of acceptance and public display wouldn't have happened a year or two ago. In a sense, it is more valuable to me because it was harder to get. Your friend Scott might have a bit of insecurity himself. Telling crap stories like he did might be his way to shore up his masculine 'cred.' Thinking back, when I was younger I was so fearful of being found out, I made those nasty "cred' acquiring comments? Still, that kind of stuff hurts, right?

So, Complete, I do have a question for you. Is that you in the boat?

I was thinking that same stuff about guys being slower to accept or at least be comfortable around trans women because of masculinity and I don't want to say homophobia, but kinda that.  The guys I work with talk to me as always but I've noticed that they don't use my name as often and they have been slower with using the right pronouns than the women.



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QuoteSo, Complete, I do have a question for you. Is that you in the boat?

~Mony

I will ignore the obvious flame bait and just chalk up your irrelevant question to your warped sense of humor.
Would you like a reciprocal question 😈



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Oh, I was just playing Complete! I did spell your name right, didn't I? You are right, I am pretty warped in my humor. At least we are talking and not yelling at each other. For people with to very different viewpoints, talking, joking, well, its a start, isn't it?
Hugs,
Moni

So back to the topic,  I have been taking it easy the last few days before I go back into a tough work schedule.  Since I completed my job search (hopefully - offer is pending ) I am just laying around for a few days watching too much TV and typing on here  :D

During that TV watching I have been watching a lot of sitcoms (escapism) and just since posting this thread I have seen recent or current TV shows making fun of us.  This is not paranoia on my part.  Example a 'The Office' episode from 2012 the character Dwight was slamming a new character and as a dig said that he dated a transvestite.  I love 'The Office'.

I saw several examples while binge watching Big Bang on DVR.  I mean very recent episodes - not 12 years ago.  I love that show too.

The point I am making is that society's view of us over the years has been shaped to think we are a joke.  People are almost always nice and if a direct example comes up most support us but it is still funny to see men portrayed as women.  That is why we have internalized transphobia and are ashamed.  We have been taught that we are a joke.
No wonder it takes so much courage to come out.

Quote from: KimOct on February 20, 2019, 09:28:07 PM
So back to the topic,  I have been taking it easy the last few days before I go back into a tough work schedule.  Since I completed my job search (hopefully - offer is pending ) I am just laying around for a few days watching too much TV and typing on here  :D

During that TV watching I have been watching a lot of sitcoms (escapism) and just since posting this thread I have seen recent or current TV shows making fun of us.  This is not paranoia on my part.  Example a 'The Office' episode from 2012 the character Dwight was slamming a new character and as a dig said that he dated a transvestite.  I love 'The Office'.

I saw several examples while binge watching Big Bang on DVR.  I mean very recent episodes - not 12 years ago.  I love that show too.

The point I am making is that society's view of us over the years has been shaped to think we are a joke.  People are almost always nice and if a direct example comes up most support us but it is still funny to see men portrayed as women.  That is why we have internalized transphobia and are ashamed.  We have been taught that we are a joke.
No wonder it takes so much courage to come out.

Wonderful insight!  It is getting better though.  On the "Connors", Dan's grandson acts and dresses in a feminine way.  There is an episode where Dan is forced to deal with it.  He was uncomfortable, but was able to talk to his grandson and understood that this is who he is.
Never ever in the show have I seen him as the joke.  Done quite well.

I agree Jessica - I was watching the reboot of the show also.  Too bad it was cancelled they had good messages but Sara Gilbert was the only one that captured my attention.

Things are definitely changing for the better and that is great but we still have a long, long way to go.  As I said in the title it is so ingrained.

I can take a joke once the joke is obviously a joke.  We are not there yet.  We are still thought of as THE JOKE.

PS
Thanks for the shout out Jessica - I saw that.  Made me smile.

On a cooking show here they had a big build up over "the word" that was said that "changed everything"....All the contestants were sitting around waiting on dinner and a conversation came up about first impressions when the contestants first met.

One woman turned to the other and said when I first met you I thought you were "Trans"....the woman's response was incredulous "you thought I was a Transvestite" she said with a look of absolute horror and so the drama ensued as if this is the most horrible thing that could have been said to anyone, let alone a cis woman...it was a real beat up with the channel milking it for all it was worth ...They even had the woman on the following day's breakfast show talking about what an impact it had on her and her children. This woman said she had no issues as she "works with transgenders"...after the remark was made the person who made it created a real drama and show of feeling guilty for "saying such a thing" as though being called Trans is the worst insult in the world.

Stupidity I followed the incident up on line to see what the people were saying...many many were agreeing that this cis woman was Trans and calling her a man etc...the comments were as bad as you can imagine.

The thing that struck me most of all was the emphasis was on "how bad" it was that someone would call you Trans.

I think the media can easily make our lives far more sensational than it ever is or needs to be   

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What really hurts, (and IMHO is even worse), is that the greatest, (and in their mind the most intentionally hurtful) insult hurled at long time post-op and fully assimilated women by some trans-women, is that they, (we), "are just like them, except that they, (we),  have an inverted penis".

It has only been a few years since I transitioned.  The fear I felt those first few months is still fresh in my memory. 
That is why I am on this forum, for those that are at that point now.

It doesn't matter if we had surgery 30 years ago and have been living this life for years, didn't have surgery at all or if it is our first day out in public.  Everyone should be treated with respect regardless of who they are, how they look or how they identify.  The only judgment should be about our actions and how we treat the rest of society.

Quote from: KimOct on February 21, 2019, 02:33:02 AM
It has only been a few years since I transitioned.  The fear I felt those first few months is still fresh in my memory. 
That is why I am on this forum, for those that are at that point now.

It doesn't matter if we had surgery 30 years ago and have been living this life for years, didn't have surgery at all or if it is our first day out in public.  Everyone should be treated with respect regardless of who they are, how they look or how they identify.  The only judgment should be about our actions and how we treat the rest of society.

That is an excellent point. Just as we ask and (rightly or wrongly), expect others, and society as a whole to respect and maybe even understand our feelings, is it not encumbent upon us to do the same for them?
Try to remember just how hard it was for you to maybe understand much less accept who you were.

First of all, TV shows! On Shameless they have a real life trans man playing a trans man and is Ian's love interest. They dealt with Ian's misconceptions and Ian's brother's stupid and insensitive comments. Trevor is an awesome character and so far they have handled his situation respectfully. I hope they continue. I am pulling for this character. He  is one of the most 'normal' characters on that show.

It's funny, but I never expect anyone to understand me being trans. I only ask for respect as a human being. I try to return that respect unless their actions warrant something else. I get that people's knowledge of trans people is limited. Unfortunately that knowledge is perverted by much of what is seen on TV. I have been thinking about trying to lobby an on air personality to try to get more representation that would be a truthful depiction of us.

Couldn't agree more Moni.  How could someone cis understand what it is to be trans?  It would be like someone white claiming that they know what it is like to be black.  Respect and support - sure.  Understanding, not possible.  Same with us.

Don't misunderstand the theme of this topic, I definitely think there have been strides forward.  My point is that laughing at us and misconceptions are so deeply ingrained that it will take years to continue to move the needle forward.

On my final day of laying around I was just watching some more of 'The Office' a few minutes ago.  In a 2013 episode there were 2 scenes back to back.  It was so telling.  In the first scene (for those that don't know the show ) two characters (Oscar and Daryl ) were pretending to be a gay couple to get a Valentine's Day discount.  Only one of the characters was actually gay.  The shop owner said no and the straight character stood up for their rights.  It is because of where the gay rights movement has evolved to.

In the very next scene - a late to the series character addition ( Clark ) was being laughed at by a coworker and manicurists because he looked ' like a pretty girl"  I was struck by the huge difference in the back to back scenes.

One scene showed support and the other scene showed mocking.  Things are getting better but it is still.....
so ingrained.

What l see as seriously ingrained, is victimhood. Hence the addiction to identity politics. Hmmm...let's see, some examples might be Elisabeth Warren, Justin Smollett, ....?

Correction his name is Jussie Smollett and if what is currently being reported is true it is terrible.  Creating a false attack whether it be to enhance his career or even if we give him the benefit of the doubt and consider that it was to make a statement either of those is inexcusable. 

There are enough examples of real hate crimes and faking one is never OK.  In fact it harms those that have legitimate claims.

There is a wide gap between victim-hood and being discriminated against, marginalized or oppressed. 

Is victim-hood a real thing?  I would say yes it is.  Some people are always looking to claim that they have been victimized in some way.   Are discrimination, marginalization and oppression real things also.  YES !!

A reasonable person can see that all of the above exist.

Quote from: Complete on February 21, 2019, 12:55:54 AM
What really hurts, (and IMHO is even worse), is that the greatest, (and in their mind the most intentionally hurtful) insult hurled at long time post-op and fully assimilated women by some trans-women, is that they, (we), "are just like them, except that they, (we),  have an inverted penis".

That's a new one!  I have not heard this one yet.  Why don't they just go ahead and quickly invert their penis?

Quote from: Dietlind on February 21, 2019, 08:36:53 PM
That's a new one!  I have not heard this one yet.  Why don't they just go ahead and quickly invert their penis?

Penis inversion is one of the original techniques used to create a neo-vaginal canal. Many trans-women find this very  painful, expensive and questionably effective technique un-necessary for their own needs. Hence my objection to the assertion that, "we are all the same".

Quote from: KimOct on February 21, 2019, 08:20:46 PM
Correction his name is Jussie Smollett and if what is currently being reported is true it is terrible.  Creating a false attack whether it be to enhance his career or even if we give him the benefit of the doubt and consider that it was to make a statement either of those is inexcusable. 

There are enough examples of real hate crimes and faking one is never OK.  In fact it harms those that have legitimate claims.

There is a wide gap between victim-hood and being discriminated against, marginalized or oppressed. 

Is victim-hood a real thing?  I would say yes it is.  Some people are always looking to claim that they have been victimized in some way.   Are discrimination, marginalization and oppression real things also.  YES !!

A reasonable person can see that all of the above exist.

I am not sure where you get your reporting,  but the last l heard,  Smollet was free on $100,0000 bail, pending his arraignment on a Class IV felony of making a false police report and staging a hate crime in order to further his hateful narrative that Trump supporters are racist homo-phobes.
I agree that this is wrong and hope he is fairly tried and held accountable.
My point,  in case l was unclear is that this ingrained need for victimhood, has a tendency to impair  clear thinking and impair the ability and desire to profit from one's own efforts and hard work, rather than seeking the seemingly easy rewards of self induced victimhood.

Quote from: Complete on February 21, 2019, 08:42:29 PM

Penis inversion is one of the original techniques used to create a neo-vaginal canal. Many trans-women find this very  painful, expensive and questionably effective technique un-necessary for their own needs. Hence my objection to the assertion that, "we are all the same".

I know, my replay was just kind of satiric!
I am not for comparing any human with another, or put labels on,  we are all different.  The only thing we really have in common is that most of us carry their head on top of the torso!

Quote from: Complete on February 21, 2019, 08:53:19 PM
I am not sure where you get your reporting,  but the last l heard,  Smollet was free on $100,0000 bail, pending his arraignment on a Class IV felony of making a false police report and staging a hate crime in order to further his hateful narrative that Trump supporters are racist homo-phobes.
I agree that this is wrong and hope he is fairly tried and held accountable.
My point,  in case l was unclear is that this ingrained need for victimhood, has a tendency to impair  clear thinking and impair the ability and desire to profit from one's own efforts and hard work, rather than seeking the seemingly easy rewards of self induced victimhood.

Our political views differ significantly however I am very willing to acknowledge that not everyone that shares my views act appropriately at all times.  It would appear that is the case with Mr. Smollett.  The police work seems to have been very thorough.  Of course just like anyone else it needs to be proven in court.

Regarding victimhood I know a lot of hard working people that advocate tirelessly for the rights of others.  I could list my own very hard work throughout my life in the midst of extreme challenges but I am not going to bore others with what I have overcome in detail.

No individual or ideological view has a monopoly on truth or justice but I still firmly believe that our society has a large number of marginalized people.  I have lived on both sides.  I have been privileged and I have been poor.  I have had terrible illnesses and I have prevailed.

What I have learned is that walking awhile in other people's shoes teaches a person a lot.  It has me.
As for Mr. Trump we will agree to disagree.  There are other venues such as Facebook etc for indepth political debates and this is as far as I care to go on this forum in that regard.  That is not the focus here.

My intent with this topic was not a political discussion and by reviewing my previous posts in this thread I focused on how transgender people are viewed by society.  I could go for pages regarding the political ramifications for transgender people but I choose not to as I think it is inappropriate in this venue.

Quote from: KimOct on February 21, 2019, 10:16:46 PM
Our political views differ significantly however I am very willing to acknowledge that not everyone that shares my views act appropriately at all times.  It would appear that is the case with Mr. Smollett.  The police work seems to have been very thorough.  Of course just like anyone else it needs to be proven in court.

Regarding victimhood I know a lot of hard working people that advocate tirelessly for the rights of others.  I could list my own very hard work throughout my life in the midst of extreme challenges but I am not going to bore others with what I have overcome in detail.

No individual or ideological view has a monopoly on truth or justice but I still firmly believe that our society has a large number of marginalized people.  I have lived on both sides.  I have been privileged and I have been poor.  I have had terrible illnesses and I have prevailed.

What I have learned is that walking awhile in other people's shoes teaches a person a lot.  It has me.
As for Mr. Trump we will agree to disagree.  There are other venues such as Facebook etc for indepth political debates and this is as far as I care to go on this forum in that regard.  That is not the focus here.

My intent with this topic was not a political discussion and by reviewing my previous posts in this thread I focused on how transgender people are viewed by society.  I could go for pages regarding the political ramifications for transgender people but I choose not to as I think it is inappropriate in this venue.

I  understand.  We are all on the same side here. As for my views on Trump's presidency,  I posted my views as an example of political incorrectness. My political views have nothing to do with my views on victimhood and how since the 90's it seems that having been oppressed or descendant of an oppressed minority group carries some premium and entitles the bearer of such victimhood special privileges or allowances.
An example of this ' s how certain States offer free college tuition to illegal immigrants while requiring those native born citizens to pay full boat.
I think such practices deprive those"oppressed" citizens the opportunity to overcome their own challenges and learn,  just as you and l have.

There are a lot of shades of gray in life and I think that is also true of this type of discussion.  I will admit that some people expect a free ride in life.  Not every underprivileged or person from a challenged background is a pillar of virtue.

Are there some inequities regarding trying to level the playing field?  Absolutely.  But I do believe in trying to level the playing field and continuing to try to get it 'correct' even if that is an unattainable goal.

Here is an example - I was raised in an upper middle class suburb.  I am white.  I am American.  Although I am transgender I am still privileged to some degree.  When my healthcare disappeared I knew how to fix it.  When I changed my name and gender legally I knew how to do it.  Why?  Well partially because I am reasonably intelligent but also because of the privileges I have enjoyed my entire life.

A young transgender black AMAB person that was raised in a poor, violent neighborhood without the education that I enjoyed  would have had a much more difficult time navigating this path than I did.

Are there inequities trying to level the playing field?  Absolutely.  Are there people that don't want to work hard?  Yes to that too.  But I will always believe that we should try to raise our fellow human beings.

I am going to attempt to change the nature of this conversation so I may or may not reply to any subsequent reply in this vein but I want to thank you for keeping your responses civil.  Disagreements can be respectful.

I am reading with interest, and I shall reiterate KimOct's comment:  "thank you for keeping your responses civil.  Disagreements can be respectful."

Thank you to all for understanding that.

Cindy

Kim,
I appreciate your patience and your intelligence. I like this thread. I will add my voice that it should be respectful. My opinion is that the political talk doesn't last long before it crashes and burns. I have strong political views that I must damp down here. I can't say I am 100% successful doing that, but I try. Trans people that I have met want equal rights and opportunity. They want no special rights. Some want the right to serve in the military and possibly die for their country. The 'special treatment' is the exclusion from that right. We talk about depiction on TV shows. That is certainly important for shaping many views toward trans people. The thing is, in some places (in the US), you can lose your job, lose your housing, lose your family, lose your self esteem, and lose your life just for being trans. "With liberty and justice for all!" Is that just BS phrasing we teach our kids to say, or is it a promise to all groups? The thought occurs that "you aren't paranoid if someone is really after you." These ignorance based restrictions on trans people's rights are real. People should complain and fight for their rights. I don't see anyone profiting from being trans. On the flip side, besides their rights, nothing should be given to trans people just because they are trans. They should work just as hard as anyone else. They should take on the same responsibilities as anyone else. A fair shot  at a good life is all I have  been seeing trans people ask for. To be honest, it is a little more than rights. I think trans folks who are good people deserve dignity. I really don't think a trans person who is obviously trans, (is that a better way to say 'doesn't pass'?) deserves any less dignity than someone who passes seemlessly.

QuoteA young transgender black AMAB person that was raised in a poor, violent neighborhood without the education that I enjoyed  would have had a much more difficult time navigating this path than I did.

Interesting example. I find it useful in that it helps make my point.
I was AMAB. l am also a woman of color and "was raised in a poor, violent neighborhood" where the sound of gunfire was as common as the sound of traffic, by a single teen age mom who also happened to be an immigrant to this country. I had none of those advantages and privileges afforded to white middle class Americans. Yet.....I was able to survive the beatings and virulent discrimination prevalent in the 50'sand 60's against people of color when l was growing up. Not only that, but knowing that l was a beloved child of God, l was able to maintain my Faith in The Lord, and find my way to those medical professionals,  who could make me whole.
I did not have an internet, that was not even a reality until 20 years after my SRS. Support groups? Don't make me laugh.
Please do not interpret my words as disrespect.  I am only expressing honestly,  those feelings evoked by the arguments being made,  that we are so oppressed,  so victimized,  that well. ...all our woes are the fault of an ignorant,  biased, hateful public at large.
I have pointed this out before and l apologize if  some of you might find my views, formed over decades of lived experience.  I do not believe that the accepted narrative that trans people are an oppressed minority. Just look at those professional trans-people making a great living in the media and entertainment industry.
So what about that  poor kid of color,  you ask? You mean like me, growing up in the 50's?
Well considering all the advantages currently available: like the internet, support groups , legislation offering protection and even financial support,  Obama-care, etc., etc...well, l'd say quit whining and looking to others to solve your problems, and just get out there and DO IT. It is your life afterall. Maybe you should just take care of it yourself.
Hmmmm....

Trigger warning!


Complete I honestly applaud what you have done in your life. You had it tough and you worked hard to get where you did. I also feel you are right in making things happen for yourself and not expect someone to do it for you. I really don't think people being lost, or confused, or not born with the inner strength that others have is them sitting around whining. Some folks take a long time to find the strength they need to overcome. Sadly, many can't handle the stress and attempt suicide or end there life. I never want to have a viewpoint where I look down on those people who are desperate. Anyone who is of the mind to do so, I think, should try to be a little understanding of their difficulty and work to correct the legal injustices that exist. (This is my viewpoint and not to be interpreted as an attack on you or anyone.)

Trans people are certainly a minority. Having laws that prevent us from having a equal playing field with other Americans? Yeah, I'd call that oppression. It's not an excuse to become helpless, but it also is ridiculous to throw up our hands and say, "Second class citizen, oh cool! That's good enough!"

Thank you Moni, l am glad we can find some areas of agreement. The following statement however,  needs some unpacking.

QuoteHaving laws that prevent us from having a equal playing field with other Americans? Yeah, I'd call that oppression.

I hardly see the overly liberal interpretation of certain Title IX laws which allow male bodied individuals to compete against natally born females, or to be housed or bath with females to be oppressive.

I was going to let this thread die its eventual death but a small thing happened at work today that I thought it very illustrative of the point.   The topic of this is 'it's so ingrained'.   What I meant by that is how most of us think.  I don't just mean people that are judgmental of us I mean nearly everyone - including ourselves.

This thread wasn't intended to point out social injustice or persecution or hate or any such thing.  (I can do that in other topics  :D )  The point was to demonstrate how we think about gender as a society and anyone out of the gender norm.

So what happened today was small but telling.  I am talking to a young guy around 25 and he is complaining about his Mom yelling at him to get up that it is the middle of the afternoon.  He worked the graveyard shift and only slept 5 hours.
So I am letting him vent and tell him well some people just like to complain.

He says 'well you know how women are'.  He didn't mean because I am one he meant it in the way guys say to each other.  He thinks of me as a guy.  He is cool to me and we chat - he obviously has no problem with me but he definitely thinks of me as a guy.

I go to work with full makeup - polished nails my hair looks the same as my avatar - I might be easy to clock but it is obvious I am presenting as female.

Just like Scott the hero at the start of the story this guy today - Alex - think of me as a guy.  They are nice to me as most people are but it is the mindset that has been ingrained in them by living in this society by what they watch, see, hear from others.

I am not claiming some terrible wrong was done to me by either Scott or Alex.  There was not.  What I am saying is that our world has a long way to go before people start to 'get it'.  And that includes us.  Why would we have been so afraid to come out if we thought being trans was OK?

I have been letting this tread run without comment however I don't think this thread has really identified the problem. As I see it, the problem is ignorance or lack of empathy. Education can address the ignorance problem however lack of empathy is something you probably can't do much about. It is possible that a person will develop empathy as they get older. If you're having trouble dealing with somebody, you should determine which problem your dealing with and if it's possible to fix it. If you can't fix it, you may just be better off to minimize your contact and tolerate the idiosyncrasies.

That is a good insight Dena.  Ignorance is one thing, lack of empathy is another.  It is hard to teach empathy and ultimately I think that is one of the most important traits a person can have.