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General Discussions => Spirituality => Topic started by: Male-CD on November 30, 2005, 06:01:04 PM

Title: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Male-CD on November 30, 2005, 06:01:04 PM
I am 18 years old and have been crossdressing off and on since my early teen years (13 or 14.) It all started one day when my parents were gone and I went walking down the hallway and saw a pair of my mom's panties hanging in the laundrey room...with nobody looking and a deep curiosity, I slipped them on. Now I wear panties 24/7. I have searched the internet completely upsidedown trying to find out about Christianity and crossdressing. I consider myself to be a full pledged Christian and I didn't want to be doing something I shouldn't be doing. Most Christian sites say that crossdressing is okay...still some say it's not. I don't believe it is a sin unless you over-do it. (Making yourself look completely like a girl.) That is not my desire and it's not the reason I wear panties. I wear panties because I think they are much more comfortable then anything available in the mens department.

The only thing I am concerned about is my parents....I still live in my parents home and they have no clue about my panty wearing. It's not the crossdressing that's bothering me, it's my parents not knowing and me still living under their roof. Does anybody have any suggestions about what I should do? (BTW: They caught me one time with a bunch of panties in my room and they weren't happy about it at all. That is kinda pulling me back from telling them.) Anyway, any advice is appreciated!
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Valerie on November 30, 2005, 11:22:49 PM
Well hi there, and welcome to Susan's  :)  Check out the Wiki and the site rules and make yourself at home. 

As usual, I will put forth my disclaimer to avoid any confusion. I am not transgendered so for the cross-dressing issues I am not qualified to answer, but believe you me, you will get plenty of replies and insight from other members that will more than make up for what I lack! We're a friendly bunch, too....  :)

I'm a Christian, too, friend, so first off I welcome you in the name of Christ.  I can very well understand how you would have some inner struggle about whether your words/thoughts/actions are in line with your religious and/or spiritual values.  What I have learned over the years is that the Bible is not a rule-book and God is not a police officer.  He is not peering down from heaven waiting for you to screw up so that He can smite you.  He certainly doesn't want for us to be so burdened by the Law that we live our lives in fear and walk on eggshells. 

The Gospel of Christ proclaims freedom to all who claim it.  Not only freedom that comes in the afterlife, but freedom for life here on earth. It does not mean we are free to sin because God will forgive us anyway; to believe that is to make a mockery of Christ's sacrifice.  It does mean we have the freedom of knowing that we cannot do anything to make God love us more....and we cannot do anything to make God love us less. It means that we do good for the sake of doing good, because we love God and others--we do not do good to earn brownie points in Heaven. It means that in all of our frailties and imperfections, we can repent, confess, and move on, and not be laden with guilt and shame. 


QuoteMost Christian sites say that crossdressing is okay...still some say it's not.
So my first suggestion is this: yes, ask yourself questions, try to earnestly seek that which is the right thing to do in any given situation.  But don't let a web-site tell you what your personal morality, ethics, or values should or should not be.  Examine your heart...examine God's heart...talk to Him...and listen for Him...you can read all the books, listen to all the preachers, find all the websites, memorize the Bible, but none of that will give you what it is truly important, which is communion with your Heavenly Father.  Only God can give you the answers you seek; He speaks through people, books, events, His word, nature...but you cannot replace His wisdom or His companionship with those things. 

Quote(Making yourself look completely like a girl.) That is not my desire and it's not the reason I wear panties. I wear panties because I think they are much more comfortable then anything available in the mens department.
Personally, why you wear women's panties is of little concern to me either way.  KNow what?  I sometimes buy men's shoes, men's shirts, men's fragrances, for various reasons. I love ties (but I've never worn one).  If I were Roman Catholic I'd want to be a monk, not a nun. They have cooler-looking clothes and they chant better.  Do ya' think God cares?  How do we know that men's and women's underpants didn't start out looking the same? Who dictates what 'men's' and 'women's' stuff is, anyway? 

Do you think God is more concerned about the clothes on your body, or whether you help clothe the poor?  Does He care more about the letter of the law, or the spirit of the law?  Would He rather have children that never break the rules, are always clean, neatly groomed, pay the tithe, never miss church on Sunday, and yet who love little and look down their noses at people?  Or would He rather have us a little scruffy and ragged and yet with big hearts of love, trust, joy, peace, compassion? 

Just a few things to consider... I don't think anyone goes to their grave saying, 'I wish I would have been more of a legalist', but many go to their graves wishing they had been more understanding, more truthful, less judgmental...

Another thing to consider is that the scriptures are often taken very literally, and very much out of context.  There were very different circumstances in ancient Israel that led to the institution of certain regulations.  Quite frankly, I do not think for one minute that trans-genderism is sinful.  You are wearing women's clothes because they're comfortable, not because you're trying to have a disguise to rob a bank in....who's to say that Christ Himself wouldn't be more comfortable in girl clothes?


QuoteI still live in my parents home and they have no clue about my panty wearing. It's not the crossdressing that's bothering me, it's my parents not knowing and me still living under their roof.
Well, friend, yes, you're under your parents' roof, I understand that. Believe it or not, they don't need to know everything that goes on.  Sure, if they knew that you wear women's panties, they wouldn't be happy.  Some religious parents would not be happy if they found out their kid masturbated....most parents really don't want to know this type of information, unless they are acting as police officers, intent on discovering some terrible thing about people so they can give them a thrashing and assert their moral 'superiority'.  

I don't think you need to tell them. Don't let your guilt cause you to engage in self-sabotaging acts.  You feel guilty that you're doing something you know your parents disapprove of--the issue right now is not your parents dispproval, but your relationship with yourself and with God.  It sounds as if you're not comfortable with who you are.....you will hurt yourself if you go around 'confessing' to people who will be less comfortable with you than you are. 

Fear of discovery is another issue that I am not qualified to answer.  Someone else will surely step in, though. 

Bottom line, though, and I hope you never lose sight of this, is that God created you and is wild about you.  Nothing you think,say, or do comes as a surprise to Him, he understands you more than you understand yourself.  He loves you completely, infinitely, and nothing about you will ever, ever change that. 

QuoteI don't believe it is a sin unless you over-do it. (Making yourself look completely like a girl.)
One last thing:  Everyone here is entitled to their viewpoint, and is welcome here as long as they follow they rules.  There are about as many types of people to be found here as there are individuals!  :)  If you think total cross-dressing is a sin, you've a right to that view, but remember that other cross-dressers are our brothers and sisters here on Susan's, as well as people who have different religious views, and God loves them as much as He does you and I.  Remember to be respectful of diversity and of each individual that you encounter here. 

By the way, how shall we address you?  You didn't sign your name, so for now I just call you 'Friend'...  I hope I've been of some help to you and that i didn't scare you off with my long-winded reply.  I also hope it makes some sense---I got less than 4 hours sleep last night!  :D  You are among friends here, so I hope you'll stick around for a while.  As Cassie would say,  'Good journey'....

Valerie
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Jillieann Rose on December 01, 2005, 12:06:35 AM
Hi,
I'm Jillieann a 54 year old Christian. I first accepted Christ at age 18. I wasn't raised in a Christian family, but God still found me. Holiness is one of the big things in our church.

I also wear panties all the time and often a sports bra. I hate men's underwear.

QuoteDo you think God is more concerned about the clothes on your body, or whether you help clothe the poor?  Does He care more about the letter of the law, or the spirit of the law?  Would He rather have children that never break the rules, are always clean, neatly groomed, pay the tithe, never miss church on Sunday, and yet who love little and look down their noses at people?  Or would He rather have us a little scruffy and ragged and yet with big hearts of love, trust, joy, peace, compassion? 

Well said Valerie.

Jesus is concerned with our heart (what we do or don't do to others and ourselves) not our outward appearance. God wants us to be all we can be, remember he create each of us with or gifts, talents, experiences and desires. I've just finish teaching a small group in the Doing Life Together series on being Developing Your SHAPE to Serve Others it's a continuation of the Purpose Driven Life. Check it out if you haven't it may help.

Myself I'm a CD plus and I would love to look like a woman most of the time if I could.

If you're a CD and your only desire is to wearing panties and you think your parents would be upset than don't tell them.
At your age will be out on your own soon.

Anyway it's good to meet you.
Jillieann :icon_wave:
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Debtv on December 01, 2005, 03:56:08 AM
Hello,

So you feel ok about your crossdressing, as long as you don't wear a wig and do makeup? I'm not sure what you are saying here....but thats ok. :)

At least you did ask this:
QuoteDoes anybody have any suggestions about what I should do?

Well, you are young and you have pleanty of time to find yourself. You should concentrate on getting yoiur education and living your life right NOW. You have alot of time. It's ok. Mellow out :) You should slowly discover yourself....brick after brick.

God? He is way beyond your understanding....how about concentrating on each of the lucky moments you are alive? Life is a gift...with every lovely sunset we all can see that. Don't worrie your pretty little head about all of that...zero in on being the best and honest person you can be. Then, with good karma it will all work out for you.

You do not say how old ya are....well if still in school.....buck it up and wait till you move away to really live as yerself. If out of school (and still home?)...go get a job, move away and live your live freely and honestly.

Good luck hon,
DebTV
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Cassandra on December 01, 2005, 08:37:08 AM
Hi There.

You've gotten some real good answers to your questions. As you have by now discovered we are a friendly bunch and some are more long winded than others. The important thing is that you are among caring people who will be happy to advise and guide you if you ask.

There is a lot of information here and a lot of life experiences. Read the stories of others who have and are making this journey. Visit the Wiki and learn all you can. We have a great staff who are working hard to make it up to date and inclusive. So let me extend you my official welcome.

Fix yourself a cup of tea or other(age appropriate) relaxing beverage, sit down, take your shoes off and set a spell.

Oh yeah, and drop by introductions and let us know what to call you other than hey you.  ;D

Good Journey,

Cassie

P. S. Valerie. Keep posting like that and somebody is going to put blue stars next to your name.  and your little dog otto too. HeHeHeHeHe >:D
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Male-CD on December 01, 2005, 05:36:13 PM
Thanks all for the friendly adive and encouragement! Let me say without hesitation that I am now a Susan's fanatic!! Thanks again!
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Shelley on December 02, 2005, 02:43:20 AM
Welcome to Susans,

Normally I would give you a little time to settle in but I've got to ask about this one.

QuoteI don't believe it is a sin unless you over-do it. (Making yourself look completely like a girl.)

Is that like only stealing a piece of cake and not the whole thing :). I ask because I can't see the difference between panties and the whole kit and caboodle.

Personally I don't see either as a sin unless it is intended to deceive for the reason of committing a sin. I may be wrong there cause as a twice married catholic I'm hardly qulified to comment. ;D

Anyway as someone said how about hopping over to introductions and giving us a name to call you by.

Hope you enjoy your time with us here at Susan's.

Shelley
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Male-CD on December 02, 2005, 04:41:09 PM
Thankyou Shelley!
I think that's actually more like what I meant to say. Go ahead and wear the whole kit and caboodle, just don't be decieving about it. Before I end this post, I need to say WAY TO GO VALERIE. Was that a piece of poetry or what? Valerie, if I had any kind of authority here, your stars would turn blue!

Your Crossdresser For Christ,
Derek
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Valerie on December 02, 2005, 07:13:51 PM
Well, Derek, then I'm glad you don't have authority! Blue stars mean extra responsibility, and I don't wanna' grow up yet!  Thanks for the compliment, though (you too, Cass, and Melissa, and Jillieann... :angel:)  Glad you're making Susan's home.... 

Valerie
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Shelley on December 03, 2005, 01:43:21 AM
Trust me Valerie,

It's not the responsibility so much as Leighs whip. ;D

Shelley

Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Terri-Gene on December 03, 2005, 05:24:47 AM
QuoteI don't believe it is a sin unless you over-do it. (Making yourself look completely like a girl

Hmmm,Derek, are you saying that to dress for personal pleasure is good, acceptable to god and being what god made you before birth is a sin?  sounds confused to me at least.  I and others are only dealing with the soul that god has given without asking, whats your excuse for doing  such things if you have no desire to actually Be female or look like one and is it a deception to be honest about who you really are?  Whats deceptive about facing all the consiquences of your convictions about yourself?  We are after all what we are and there are a great many who are not deceptive in the least about who they really are. Do you believe that medically documented Transsexuals are being deceptive by being open about who they really are rather then keep trying to be something we are not?  Now that would amount to deception, pretending to be our birth sex when at core we are not.

No anomosity here, jbut you dodged approximatly the same question from Shelley, implying you only ment that you believed many or most TG or TS people were only being deceptive so just asking the obvious out of curiosity in a view I don't understand in the least ..... help me out here, keeping in mind of course what Shelley asked about only stealing a piece of cake as opposed to taking the whole thing.

Always curious about contraversial views.

Terri
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Terri-Gene on December 03, 2005, 05:51:40 AM
QuoteIt's not the responsibility so much as Leighs whip.

Don't worry so much about the whip Shelley, Leigh doesn't reward bad behavior, she has much more terrifying tools in her kit if you get on her wrong side.

Terri
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Shelley on December 03, 2005, 06:58:51 AM
Now how does it go:

The masochist said to the sadist whip me whip me!!!

And the sadist stepped back and said noooo....
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Terri-Gene on December 03, 2005, 04:28:47 PM
Thats about it Shelley, so don't worry so much about the whip, but when she tries to nail your ear to a post ..... RUN!

Terri
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Leigh on December 03, 2005, 04:50:16 PM
It will be a religious experience when I do.

You might tend to utter words related to religion like>> Holy or God or even Jesus.
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Terri-Gene on December 03, 2005, 05:33:11 PM
Be just like you to put on ear plugs and just grin at the silence and tell her to quit screaming and squirming before she tore her ear off.

Terri
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Jillieann Rose on December 04, 2005, 03:14:43 AM
Quote from: Terri-Gene on December 03, 2005, 05:24:47 AM
I and others are only dealing with the soul that god has given without asking ..........
is it a deception to be honest about who you really are? What's deceptive about facing all the consequences of your convictions about yourself? We are after all what we are and there are a great many who are not deceptive in the least about who they really are.........

The comments I first made were to prove to this young person that not all Christians feel that it is a sin to be who God made you to be. People always try to put God in a box but the hold idea is crazy and how can you constrain the creator of all into some preconceived notion from a finite human mind. I believe everything in the  Bible is true, but we, that is human kind, often twist what it say to suite or own purposes, so that we can feel better about ourselves and control other without taking any responsibility. God is than an excuse for intolerance bigotry and all sorts of atrocities. I wouldn't want to be in their shoe when they meet there maker face to face.   
I hope that Derek see from your posting, Terri, that it is a sin to not be all that God made you to be no mater what others may think or say and that it is not a easy way for us TG and TV ect...
Oh no! Now on on my soap box again.

Anyway I agree with what you wrote Terri and Shelley and I would like to see Dedeks answer.

Jillieann
Jillieann   
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Jillieann Rose on December 04, 2005, 03:16:34 AM
Sorry I did'nt mean to studder.
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Male-CD on December 04, 2005, 08:04:43 PM
Actually, Terri has kinda confused me....and maybe I was a little confused when I posted for the first time. I don't know...so let me try and say this again. I don't believe crossdressing is a sin. period! I do however believe that crossdressing can lead to other sins very easily, so we that do crossdress need to be carful...

I am curious about something however. I have my own beliefs about this verse in Duet, but this is the verse that every Christian who doesn't accept my crossdressing has hammered and will hammer me with. What are your thoughts about this verse?? I am not worried about it, but was wondering what the other people's thoughts were on it...

Duet 22:5 A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

Derek
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Terri-Gene on December 04, 2005, 09:25:27 PM
sorry if I confused you Derek, didn't mean to.  Your original post though seemed to indicate that you thought it was ok to wear the clothing of a woman but those of us who actually see ourselves as women and have a drive to blend into thier space are somehow in the wrong.  I just wanted you to expand on this to be able to see your true feelings as people do not always word things the way they mean them.

QuoteDuet 22:5 A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

As to the verse, I doubt there is a person here who has not heard this, we have had many discussions over the years about this and other references.  Being a political person and a social observer, I can see many reasons for such a verse from that time period and society.  Women were not to dress in the clothing of a man because that would allow them freedom of movement and control of thier environment.  Being able to recognise a woman as a female is a prime reason for the differences in mens and womans clothing.  It was a control technique to keep women subservient.  Also in original verses, a ban was put on men from wearing womans clothing but for the purpose of sneaking into another mans harem unnoticed, though that part is generally convieniently left out when people quote it.  Another reason for a ban on men in womens clothing was men were expected to fight, every able bodied man was in effect in the army reserve and during the frequent warfare of the period could be collected (drafted) at anytime.  If he were to wear womans clothing he would not be recognized as a soldger.  Or he may hide in the clothing of women to avoid battle or for protectoin.  Remember, There were political and environmental reasons for much of the wording of the old Testiment.  And never forget that with the coming of jesus the New Testiment, or HIS word replace the old teachings.  He said that one would not reach heaven by obeying any law except through HIM, and have you found any such thing coming from the word of JESUS?

NO, you will learn that I am not generally looking for arguments with anyone, but that I am a very litteral person and often take words EXACTLY as stated and will often question them if I have any desire to understand them better.  I am here for the education, like a lot of others.

Terri
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Jillieann Rose on December 05, 2005, 09:45:22 AM
Hi CD Derek,
You should never just quote a single verse without looking at the text around it and as Terri said the society that it God was talking too. I can quote may single verses that at face value are wrong or don't able to every society.
Try these:
DT 21:18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

DT 22:5 Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together.

DT 22:12 Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear.

How about the New Testament (after Jesus came)

Apostle Paul Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory?

Jesus Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.  

Apostle Paul 1TI 2:12 "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve."  

Duet 22: 5 and of these verses that I just quoted need to be read knowing the social and political situation at that time the verses were wrote.

As Terri said
QuoteIf he were to wear woman's clothing he would not be recognized as a soldger.  Or he may hide in the clothing of women to avoid battle or for protectoin.
Quotefor the purpose of sneaking into another mans harem unnoticed

You always need to you look a little deeper to find out what the real reason was for any command or or strange statement in the bible.Too may have misused words from the bible to control subjugate and or eliminate people and societies.

Terri
QuoteIt was a control technique to keep women subservient.
I don't think this verse was originally intended to make women subservient but to protect the childbearing members of the society. The desire of God and the Hebrews was to increase the population for many reasons.  But, like any good politician would do, it was latter used for that purpose.
   
To defend Jesus statement, and I need to here for those who have not study the bible, Jesus Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple. , as I'm sure Derek that you know, he was used these extremes to give emphasis to the fact that we should love God more than anyone or thing in this world.

Hope this helps.
:)
Jillieann
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: jamesBrine on December 27, 2005, 04:52:11 AM
hey,
           I first want to say that it is a great plesure to be able to find this website or chat area. I do want to say that CD is one aspect of my life i am trying to better understand. Being a christian i have heard the deuteronmy verse and contextually it hasnt really convinced me. For only practicing a few times i cant say i have a good understanding of CD to which i hope to atain. There was a web site i found that has helped me understand it from a christian point of view outside Deuteronmy and i just wanted to pass it on and see what you folks think of it. Thank you very much and God bless
     James
           
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Valerie on December 27, 2005, 08:38:47 AM
Welcome, James, and thanks so much for stopping by.  I think you'll find Susan's a terrific atmosphere to meet others who are on your journey and can offer support, advice, conversation, and plenty of chuckles along the way.  I hope you'll decide to stick around. 

Our Wiki has tons of information, and is constantly being updated--be sure to check it out in your wanderings, as wel as our site rules.  Not everyone checks the spirituality board, so when you feel comfortable, stop by Introductions and tell us a little more about yourself.  It'll give us a chance to get to know you. 

I'll have to wait till later to read the link you gave us, as I'm off to work, but I couldn't pass up the chance to just say 'hello and welcome' ! 

Valerie
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Susan on December 27, 2005, 07:55:33 PM
I read the site. I actually had it linked off of my site. I have rectified that.

This person assumes that his situation would be the only one that was possible. That his path, his temptation, his interpretations, or his personal test of faith was the only one which god or man could conceive of. What arrogance.

When you follow the right path you are at peace with yourself in mind and soul. When you follow the wrong you know it. Most people who dress as another gender has felt guilt about doing so at one time or another. However I strongly feel that this is due to societal conditioning not gods. We all have attempted to hide our cross-gender proclivities. Most of us have attempted to purge it to suppress it. To be the man we believe that we are expected to be. However it bursts out again no matter how far down we bury it.

The amazing thing is when I came out of the closet. When I quit hiding myself. When I accepted the path that I was intended to follow. The guilt, pain, and sorrow went away.

This person states the following reasons for believing that crossdressing is a sin.

Quote from: 1. It is deception - Yes, most of us to some degree modify our appearance to cover imperfections and to look our best (although sometimes the modifications look worse than the imperfection!). However, to equate this with being completely transformed to look like the opposite sex is a huge leap of reasoning.

It can be done for deception but only if you are doing it with the intention of deceiving. Another reason I firmly believe in informed consent before any intimacy. If you are crossdressing to be able to go into a womans locker room and ogle the women. It is deception. If you are a transsexual and do not see woman as being any different than yourself then it is not deception. Only you and God can know if your reasons are for deception. I know I feel I am committing deception every time I go into a men's room.

Quote from: 2. It violates God's ordained gender role for a person - God doesn't make mistakes, but Satan can take small hurts and flaws in our upbringing to cause gender confusion. This gender confusion can cause many kinds of relationship problems.

God, did not ordain gender roles society did. Gender roles other than childbirth are artificial and created by man.

"God doesn't make mistakes" oh so many stones I can throw there :)

Even if I grant that god can't make mistakes we still have our bodies, mankind, genetics, chemicals, nature, and nurture.

Why do you assume that this isn't a part of gods plan for your life for your soul's spiritual growth. I see no conflict
with my belief in God or Jesus based on his teachings while he was alive.

Satan is a scapegoat for religion. Without him religions would be held responsible by their followers when bad things happen. So they created satan to give them an easy out. So he's a way of avoiding personal, social, and societal responsibility when bad things happen. Oh ya! The devil made him/me do it!

Quote from: 3. A cross-dressing father is a confusing model for children.

If the problem is kept hidden in the dark closet and not dealt with in light yes it can be confusing.

My own niece and nephew show this is a fallacy. They accept me for what I am because to them I have always been that way.
It's perfectly natural to them. They have none of the ingrained prejudices that society would have otherwise given
them. They go to church, my sister raises them in a Christian home. She lets me take them to the movies and out from time
to time. We have a perfectly normal and natural relationship between us.

Quote from: 4. Cross-dressing is normally a very self-centered activity.

So illogical, and being a self-centered activity makes it a sin? *laugh*

Quote from: 5. It is not healthy for most marriage relationships. True, there are some exceptions to this, but most women I have
spoken with on the subject indicate a) they want a masculine male as a husband and b) they don't care to be in a virtual
lesbian relationship with the other woman as their husband.

See #3 above

Based once again on prejudices ingrained by society. They are taught by society from birth this is what makes a woman,
this is what makes a man. This is what you should do. I don't say this is inherently bad. I do however state again that it
makes it something of man not something of god and thus isn't a sin.

Quote from: The real test of whether or not something is a sin is your comfort level in doing it in front of people you go to church
with. For example, would you feel at ease dressing up and attending church "en femme?" If the answer to this question
is "no" or if you feel guilt over cross-dressing, then it fails this test.

Most people feel guilt over picking their noses. Eatting a good meal, Buying something nice for themselves. So this must
be a sin?

I do not go to churches. I feel modern religions are the anti-Christ described in the bible. Their goal is to separate you from god
and to act as a gate keeper between you and god. Such an unholy activity. That being said I am that I am, hrm where have I
heard that before :) They take me or leave me as I am either way I won't let it get between myself and my god. You shouldn't
let them either. God loves you for what you are not for what others expect you to be. Keep this in mind when you run across
one of these oh it's a sin wackos.
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Leigh on December 27, 2005, 08:31:43 PM
Quote from: Susan on December 27, 2005, 07:55:33 PM

I feel modern religions are the anti-Christ described in the bible. Their goal is to separate you from god
and to act as a gate keeper between you and god. 

Susan, shame on you.  I believe you forgot the most important function of a church.  Seperate you from your money and getting a tax deduction!

I am not even going to mention the catholic church and thier important function.

Leigh
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: jamesBrine on December 27, 2005, 09:26:45 PM
hello agian.

I just want to say thank you to susan for your imput on this web page. I look forward to getting to know you all better. Thanks and God bless! James
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Leigh on December 27, 2005, 10:11:42 PM
QuoteIf we believe that we are all God's creation and that 'God doesn't make mistakes' (as site in question states)

Then I am to believe that this god makes children who are deformed at conception or by birth?  Children who are doomed to a life of mental or physical handicap?

If indeed this is the doing of a god please spare me from the benovelance passed on by this entity.

Note:  This is not directed at any one person or and one or all religions, just the ideology of perfection.
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: unknowncd on July 20, 2010, 02:50:30 PM
*I know I am coming in years later after the original posters but I must give my opinion about this. Most of this is a response to Susan but some is general for everyone else*

I don't think wearing clothes itself is wrong but the reason why you wear clothes from the opposite sex. There have been a lot of things said here that sound good and logical but are not right.

The common phrase I have already heard is that God accepts us for who we are. In reality, God accepts us despite who we are...We are all born in sin and have different temptations throughout our whole life. It is easy for people to excuse their temptations as just "who they are" and believe that God accepts them regardless. God is holy and righteous. Just because God has forgiven our sins when we accept Him does not mean that future sins are licensed and alright.

The Bible does give different roles to men and women throughout the Bible. Pretending like this is not the case or explaining it away because of societal pressures does not change that God Himself gave different charges or roles to husbands versus wives, fathers versus mothers, men versus women. From the beginning God did establish gender roles beginning with Adam. He created Adam to rule over the animals throughout the world and he created Eve as his helper to assist him. They are equal human beings in God's eyes but do have different roles. It is natural to fight the argument that God did define gender roles because if there are gender roles then you would have to concede that one could violate those roles by cross dressing. I strongly urge everyone to not interpret scripture based on what you want it to say but rather what it says.

You also can't base right and wrong off of what "feels right" or "feels good" or everyone would do what is right in their own eyes (Proverbs 16:25, 21:2). It might feel good to hold a million dollars after stealing it from a bank but that does not mean the good feeling overrides the wrong of stealing. Our natural desire is to sin and be selfish so if we are to do what feels good or right we are in great trouble.

It sounds like Susan may believe that God does make mistakes too by her saying "Even if I grant that god can't make mistakes..."  This is a very telling thing if you believe that God makes mistakes. It is easy to then think if God makes mistakes then it isn't that bad if I do...

Satan is used as a scapegoat by many people but is illogical to use as a reason for his nonexistence. Susan says a lot of things that may sound logical or excusable but saying you believe Satan was made up flies in the face of the Bible itself. God said that Satan exists (Genesis, Job, Gospels, Revelation, etc) and if you don't believe that I would question if you are reading the Bible at all before you make these claims on forums and using God's, Jesus', or the Bible's authority to back you up. The Devil is prowling around like a lion seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). Satan is influencing the world so don't dismiss that, but as you mentioned, we are personally responsible for our own actions.

As to the objection about the cross-dressing father: You can train anyone to think anything is acceptable. It is possible to have a normal relationship in all kinds of conditions but doesn't mean it is correct. I would argue it is wrong because fathers do have a distinct role from the mother and should not be confused. Most people would think stealing from one another is acceptable if people did not teach them that stealing is wrong.

Self-centered activity: All sin is based on selfishness. a self-centered activity does not guarantee something is a sin but is a good indicator of your true desires.

Regarding the marriage relationships: This is not a prejudice of society. It is such a lame scapegoat (as you used before) to argue that everything is from societal conditioning and nothing more. If God created you as a man you are intended to be a man. If God create you as a woman you are intended to be a woman. To behave and dress like a woman when you are a man is flying in the face of how God created you. You are implying that God messed up and that you know better than He. To say that God doesn't care or that it is merely man's rules is completely wrong. If gender roles didn't factor in why would God even bother separating out charges to fathers, husbands, wives, mothers, children, etc if we are able to choose whatever we wish to be?

I disagree with the person that said that the real test of a sin is your comfort level. Again, whatever is right in our own eyes becomes the test which tends to fail most of the time to be right.

Another underlying problem is that you don't go to churches because you "feel" modern religions are the anti-christ. You make many true claims based on some religions but you cannot canvas every religion that way. God clearly says not to forsake assembling together in the book of Hebrews and the purpose is for fellowship and sharpening one another in the scripture. It is not only a relationship between you and God. I would encourage you Susan to re-evaluate your life. Based on your closing comments you seem to make choices about who you are going to be then give God and others a "take it or leave it" attitude. This is neither biblical nor good.

Also to Terri who said "And never forget that with the coming of jesus the New Testiment, or HIS word replace the old teachings." This is not true. Jesus specifically said he came to fulfill the law not to destroy it. Also read Romans because it talks a lot about how Jesus' gift of grace does not nullify the law. The law in the Old Testament was to serve as a way to know what is right. Sin uses the law to condemn us (cause us to die as Romans put it). The law does not condemn us but sin condemns us.

In closing, I want to say that I struggle very frequently with the topic of CD. I am a Christian and I will openly admit that it does feel great to cross dress but this is all I hear from these forums is to "be all you can be," "be yourself," and "do what feels right." These sound good but are not biblical. The book of Jeremiah calls the heart of man "desperately wicked". When we accept Jesus we are to be transformed and shaping our lives after God's will, not continuing on in our old ways or habits. All I hear from these forums are "This is what make me happy, feel good, or feel true to myself. Do you really think that God is just about our own personal happiness?" Happiness or feeling true to yourself does not make something right. Rather we are to follow God's command to "Be holy as I am Holy". If "being ourselves" is right and what God really wants then we wouldn't be admonished throughout the Bible to be self-controlled, not conforming to our former evil desires, etc.

1 Peter 1:13-16
Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: spacial on July 20, 2010, 05:08:08 PM
Thank you unknowncd. These are some interesting arguments.

If I may, I would like to address these, as best as I can.

As a Christian, I take the word of Jesus as paramount.

Jesus told us not to judge each other.

Jesus told us not to kill.

Jesus told us that when we pray we must do it in a closet with the door shut. He further clarified this by saying that we must never make any sort of exhibition of our devotions.

Now Jesus said many other things, but I will start with these.

With the injunction, not to judge, Jesus over turned a large part of the ancient laws that had grown up. Simply because, many of these laws involve one man judging another.

With the injunction not to kill, Jesus overturned almost all of the oter laws that had grown up, since they involved killing in one way or another.

With the injunction to keep our devotions private, Jesus overturned all notions of a church.

What was left, were the 10 Commandments.

Jesus didn't add to these. He clarified them.

The only commandment dealing with any sexual matters is the 7th, don't commit adultry. Jesus clarified this by saying that thinking about it was the same as doing it. He made this point a number of times, in other contexts. So, it would seem to be a pretty important clarification.

I will answer to God alone for my actions and how I have lived my life. I am responsible for my own soul. I owe no man any explaination for how I adhere to God's law.

And God's law is the 10 Commandments. Even Jesus didn't add on any more.

As for satan. I'm sure evil does indeed exist. But hell?

The notion of hell is a place where the sinful will go and remain, in torment, for all eternity.

So, what those who preach this are saying is that God will spend all eternity, watching people suffer and be tormented. That is a pretty mean thing to say really.

Imagine if I were to say to you that your mother or father takes pleasure in watching others suffer. You would probably, and rightly, be pretty hurt by this.

Ask yourself, how angry would a parent need to be with their child to cause that child such harm that it would suffer for the remainder of its life?

Then ask yourself what sort of parent could cause permanent, painful harm to their child, then put that child into an enclosed place and take any sort of satisfaction from watching that child suffer for the remainer of their lives?

Yet, those who claim that hell exists are actually saying that God intends to do this, not just for the brief period of life, but for all eternity?

There are many things written in the Bible. There is a clear instruction saying that if a maiden is raped and doesn't screem then she is to be taken to the gates of the city and stoned to death.

I doubt any reasonable person could even think of applying this.

The Bible is a narritive. It is not a list of regulations. It needs to be read in context.

Homosexuality, for example, can be very damaging in some situations. I went to an all boys boarding school. Sex was one of the four taboos. The reason was that we were all living together, sleeping closely, even side by side occasionally!! We showered together and so on. Just as in a family, we needed to absolutely trust each other. Just as in a family, if someone fears that another may try physical contact, it will quickly destroy the cohesion of the group.

As young boys, we talked about sex, we laughed about sex, we dreamed about sex. Every boy in that school as every boy everywhere, masturbated. But alwasy in private. Because, even though masturbation is perhaps one of the most normal activities among young boys, it too was considered part of the taboo about sex.

The views expressed in the Bible, except those of Jesus and of course, the 10 Commandments, which came from God, are views of individual people.

Some contradict others. Some are quite weird. But they are records of the thoughts of these people.

Not commandments. Not law. Just the personal views of these mortal individuals who are subject to the same Commandments, as clarified by Jesus, as the rest of us.

I hope you will find the peace you are seeking.
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Ellieka on July 20, 2010, 05:38:56 PM
Saying that we should just learn to live with Gender Identity Disorder is like telling a bipolar person to just "learn to live with it" Or a schizophrenic person to stop hearing voices. It used to be believed that these disorders were just devils oppressing or possessing someone but we know now that they are very real medical problems that can be treated. My uncle was schizophrenic and very much a Christian but with out treatment he was a complete loon! God gave us doctors for a reason. Even Jesus' disciple Luke was a physician.

While these conditions do not affect the body as far as appearance goes, they can actually kill the sufferer. If there were a procedure discovered that could cure Downs Syndrome would we not give it to those with Downs Syndrome?  Or do we say, "No, God made you that way so you have to live your life and just learn to live with it." ridiculous!

Mathew 18:8-9

( 8 ) Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. ( 9 ) And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: spacial on July 23, 2010, 06:05:55 AM
seems this person, unknowncd registered just to post #27 and hasn't returned.

That kinda sums him up really.

I do hope unknowncd can find some peace.
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Eddie_the_Eagle 2 on August 20, 2010, 02:32:32 AM
Christianity is based on the revelation of God in the Bible. It does not matter what a "denomination" or local church says, but what the Bible says.  In Deuteronomy it says that God detests cross dressers:

Deuteronomy 22:5 (New International Version)

5 A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

So to be a Christ follower, I strive to have the same character as God which means that I also detest this act.
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: rejennyrated on August 20, 2010, 03:29:25 AM
Quote from: Eddie_the_Eagle 2 on August 20, 2010, 02:32:32 AM
Christianity is based on the revelation of God in the Bible. It does not matter what a "denomination" or local church says, but what the Bible says.  In Deuteronomy it says that God detests cross dressers:

Deuteronomy 22:5 (New International Version)

5 A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

So to be a Christ follower, I strive to have the same character as God which means that I also detest this act.
Ummm - sorry to rain on your parade here but that passage that you all like to quote so freely comes from a section in the bible which also contains food regulations which Jesus and the apostles later explicitly overturned, injunctions to stone adulterers, warnings against not wearing mixed fibres which many people now do with impugnity.

So why the selective memory when it comes to this one passage?

Why not stand up and publicly call for stonings to be resumed, sock makers to be condemned, and all pork butchers to be run out of town? Because frankly until you are TRULY consistent on ALL such matters I fear this is going to look like what it is. Pure prejudice dressing itself up in the clothes of religious respectability.

Oh and while we are about this how about someone like me who was born intersexed, in other words in between sexes. Clearly I can't wear either set of clothes because I was not fully one thing or another. What do I do - run about naked?  :laugh: hmmm - though now I think about it that might even be fun ;D

I fear that you have to face the facts that the bible was written in an age before modern medicine my friend. It may contain many important religious insights, it might even be, as you believe, inspired, but fundamentalism of the type that you espouse simply isn't a logically viable option.

Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: justmeinoz on August 20, 2010, 07:36:31 AM
I have read that the prohibition on cross-dressing was due to it being part of Cannanite religious ceremonies. As such it was to be avoided by the Israelites as being taboo.

Further to what Jen said, if God doesn't make mistakes then please explain AIS, Kleinfelter's and other intersex conditions. Or even colour blindness.

Definitely a case of not seeing the forest for the trees.
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Susan on August 20, 2010, 11:35:02 AM
Why don't you take a look at what the people who wrote the bible had to say on that very verse...

http://www.beki.org/crossdress.html (http://www.beki.org/crossdress.html)

Oh while I was looking at that I noticed a new one relating to SRS...

http://www.beki.org/crushed.html (http://www.beki.org/crushed.html)
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Ellieka on September 17, 2010, 04:40:32 PM
My simple reply to anyone who throws that verse at me is simply this... "I am not a man. Your argument is invalid"  :laugh:
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Ayaname on September 17, 2010, 05:20:08 PM
I'm not a Christian myself, but I think that it really just depends on your motives. If it's a sexual fetish or causes arousal then it quite clearly falls under that category of lust. Otherwise the Bible doesn't say anything about it.

As for this scripture:
Quote from: Male-CD on December 04, 2005, 08:04:43 PM
Duet 22:5 A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.
According to a close Jewish friend who was quite versed in not only the Bible but also in many of the Jewish texts that the Bible was taken from, that verse was meant to be specifically speaking of the religious garments that the Jews were commanded to wear in the old testament. Mind you this was told to me many years ago so the details might be a little off, but the gist of it is that 'Duet 22:5' was never referring to cross dressing.

You can also think of it this way:
If gender specific clothing was a moral issue then what decides what's acceptable for each gender? After all, the first humans came into this world completely naked and there is no mention in the Bible of God telling Adam or Eve what to wear.
And take for example the fact that not long ago it would have been considered cross dressing for women to wear pants. So does that mean that morals are subject to cultural change? Does a generation of women committing the morally repugnant act of cross dressing suddenly make it morally right just because it became the norm?
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Alicia Marie on September 18, 2010, 12:42:44 AM
The word of God says that the promise of eternal life in Christ can not be made null by the law which came after. It merely came to show all have sinned and that only Christ can save.

Since the entire gospel is about Christ and his church he is the man and the church, his bride are the woman. Therefore she should not wear that which pertaineth unto him and he shall not wear her garment.

He is a High Priest forever and he wears the breastplate of judgment. When the church or a minister passes judgment on another person they sin in that they are putting on his breastplate of judgment. For the woman (church) to usurp authority over this man (Christ) and pass judgment is an abomination in the eyes of God the Father.

She (woman or church) is the betrothed of her Husband and her garment is a veil. That veil through types and shadows is His Spirit. As written, they (the wicked) have a covering but not of my Spirit.
If Christ were to have our spirit put upon him in hopes of eternal life it would also be an abomination in the eyes of God his Father. As he said, I have power to lay down my life and power to take it up again, this commandment have I received of my Father.
He will not put on her righteousness (as filthy rags) nor spirit.

Therefore, that which pertaineth unto the man is the right of Christ to be the one to judge the quick and the dead.

That which is the woman's garment is the covering of the Spirit of God.

Other aspects of clothing are subject to fad, culture or church doctrine, all the which cannot save the Christian without fear of God and faith in the blood of Christ shed as the only Lamb of atonement acceptable unto God.
 
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: ronniemoore on April 02, 2011, 11:27:54 AM
I really like a lot of the things people have said in this thread.  Usually people's comments about this subject seem either more left winged or more right winged.  These seem fairly balanced.  As a teenager I as in a similar situation (but maybe a more depressed one) to the first poster.  Now much further into the future I find myself a happily married man with two children, yet I still struggle with socially unexceptionable personality traits and desires.

I've created a blog about my life and thoughts and feelings that I feel may be helpful to the viewers of this thread.

crossdressingchrisitan.blogspot.com (http://crossdressingchrisitan.blogspot.com)
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: justmeinoz on April 03, 2011, 08:39:03 AM
Personally I think God will know who you are underneath, regardless of what you are wearing. 
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Roxanne on April 19, 2011, 01:32:49 PM
Hi
   I am a Christian and am new here on this website, of only a few seconds ago!!  I feel is feminine. It probably sounds weird for a man to be feminine. Even so much so, that I would not mind wearing a skirt or a dress. In fact, I am wearing a brown skirt and a red top right now. Also wearing pantyhose, as it is so cold here tonight. I love being girlish-like and like going to sales, I like shoes (though have not tried high-heels yet.).
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: justmeinoz on April 20, 2011, 06:28:03 AM
Hi, and welcome. 
It all depends on your point of view really ,I guess.
To me it sounds like you are wearing a kilt and hose.  As long as they are not of mixed threads you should be alright! ( bit of biblical humour there. :laugh:) Cowboys wear high heeled boots too don't forget.
   Karen.

Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Keith28 on August 17, 2012, 07:30:17 PM
HI valerie!  I am a born again christian, and my wife really got on me for ordering a pair of panties made for men from ebay, so I got rid of them. I tried to explain to her that I am straight but that I love how nylon/spandex feels you know where! 3 weeks ago I find a pair of Vassarette panties in my dresser, and I am sure she knows they are there as I have gone out of my way for her to see them when she puts my clean underwear in my underwear drawer. When I say that they really feel great and make me feel really turned on, well they do! Regular cotton male underwear is just boring. What do you think? I want to be sure that I do not offend our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  My email is bradleynutmeg&&@aol.com
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Keith28 on August 17, 2012, 08:05:33 PM
 ;D Hi Derek or whoever may repy, I am a born again christian for many years and my wife got on my a few months ago for buying a pair of pantes made for men from ebay so i got rid of them. But a month ago i find a pair of her Vassarette nylon/spandex panties in my underwear drawer and I KNOW i did not place them there! Is she coming around? I am not gay but love how panties feel. They realllty get me aroused and all. What do you think?
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: Keith28 on September 07, 2012, 01:09:41 AM
  ;D Hello to everyone out there. Lookaves like my wife took her nylon spandex panties back! So I have tried to convince her that I just like the material that panties are of but to no avail. What to do at this point. Unless I buy a pair from Ebay.
Title: Re: Christian Crossdressing
Post by: justmeinoz on September 07, 2012, 10:42:13 AM
Any references to cross-dressing being wrong in the Old Testament refer to Canaanite pagan religious rites.  That means they have no relevance to today at all.  All reputable theologians express this viewpoint.
So, they are just clothes. Nothing more , and  I bet she wears jeans, which are male attire.
Lots of women complain that their husbands hate clothes shopping, so she should count herself lucky that you actually like it.  If different clothes  liven up your sex life, and you are not involved with anyone but your wife, she should see it as just an extra dimension to you marriage.