Hi, everyone
I've been a bit puzzled about the subject of pain every time it comes up, and just now finally realized I could simply ask...
So—when I undergo electrolysis (or other procedures that hurt) what mostly happens is that as long as I move the pain into the "warning" (vs. "danger" or "damage") category and keep relaxed it remains pretty unimportant, and the primary annoyance becomes an occasional twitch that feels as if a misconnected nerve were trying to move an unrelated muscle.
I'm pretty sure everyone does something similar—but from reading other people's accounts it seems clear that to many if not most the pain is too great to redefine. I guess that what I'd like to know is where everyone else normally draws the line between the different pain types, and up to what degree you can temporarily move the category boundaries.
I've never thought of pain that way, and I don't think I can.
What I do is not allow my attention focus on the pain. Instead I think about something els. For example when i get a blood draw, I don't look at what's happening. Instead I look somewhere else in the room. When I had electrolysis, I would concentrate on a difficult to solve problem instead of what was happening to my face.
Thank you for the replies!
Quote from: AnonyMs on May 09, 2018, 07:59:37 PM
I've never thought of pain that way, and I don't think I can.
Ugh—yes, I do see I probably wasn't detailed enough. To me the gross categories are as follows:
Warning pain is pain that you know is not dangerous—e.g. a muscle stressed but not quite to the limit.
Danger pain is that same muscle stressed to the brink of injury.
Damage pain is the feeling of the muscle actually tearing asunder.
... so in that sense the boundaries themselves are simple.
What I really meant to ask was merely how far everyone can shift them, and with what effort.
Quote from: Dena on May 09, 2018, 10:08:21 PM
What I do is not allow my attention focus on the pain. Instead I think about something els. For example when i get a blood draw, I don't look at what's happening. Instead I look somewhere else in the room. When I had electrolysis, I would concentrate on a difficult to solve problem instead of what was happening to my face.
I do see... Yes. I'm sure this would also work. Knowing the limits of my self-discipline, though, I might find it hard to maintain concentration while also maintaining a conversation. (･_･;
I find electrolysis immensely painful. There's no conceivable way I can think otherwise and so far only various drugs have made it tolerable.
Haha I just started electrolysis, 3 sessions so far. It is very painful.
But I never move a mm.
I often focus on the little light patterns in my eyes. Or follow the little floating hair things that are in there haha
Plus pain is to warn us of thing that might hurt or kill us, this will not, so it's easier to ignore that pain :')
I have definitely endured much worse pain than electrolysis. It is irritating, to be sure, but no where near immense or great in my opinion. At best, based on the categorical breakdown from zirconia I would barely put it at warning.
As I said here (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,237391.msg2134868.html#msg2134868), I take pain pretty well, though, so I am sure others have a different experience if you've not endured a lot in the past.
Its the worst pain I've ever experienced, and I've been in hospital on opiates before.
It's interesting to already see the differences in pain perception even with just five participants in this thread so far.
Anyway, I confess I feel a bit relieved. Seeing a major part of comments on electrolysis revolve around pain and painkillers made me a bit worried whether I was just an insensitive freak. I'm very glad to hear there is at least one other person who can fall asleep under the needle.
By the way, for me shifting the boundaries doesn't actually negate the pain but rather just makes it unimportant. Still, I find I can pass a sewing needle through any body part without stress. (Well, at least those I'd prefer not to have. I haven't experiment with anything delicate that I do want to keep.)
The main thing that puzzles me is what causes the difference in perception. My first theory was that those who have had greater trauma (including surgery) will more easily feel the tiny needle and the small energy it carries to be nothing in comparison, and—also knowing there will be no undesired effects—be able to turn down the alarm.
As for myself, after (orthopedic) surgery the feeling of damage—broken nerve connections, changed muscular motion and such—was overwhelming. It was my first physiotherapist who explained to me the different pain categories. Since the primary damage was done, he told me to observe the pain and ignore what I could observe would not hinder the healing—except should it become necessary to rip budding attachments that would hinder future range of motion. That pain was not true damage either so I was to ignore it as well.
Ainsley's account would seem to support my original theory. However, although AnonyMs has experienced pain that required opiates, to her the pain from electrolysis is even worse. Dena can distract herself, and Rachel is also able to ignore it by concentrating on other things.
...so at this point there seems to be no real trend. I'd really love to hear more people's experiences or theories.
- What is the limit of pain that you can ignore?
- If you do have categories, what are they and where are the boundaries?
- Can you adjust the perception if it's something you're doing/having done on purpose?
- Has the limit or range of adjustment changed after experiencing something more painful or through some kind of training?
On an aside, I'm visiting Taiwan until tomorrow, so when my coworker pointed out a famous foot massage parlor, saying it would make me cry, I decided to gather a bit more data. And yes, for a split second the pain in a few spots was pretty intense. However, I did find I could relax and move it away.
But I did half want to cry when I realized I'd let the hair on my shins grow a bit too long.
Anyway, at least my feet feel wonderfully refreshed. And I've made a resolution to somehow find the spare time to make all remaining surplus hair go away...
=(^.^)=
My theory for why people experience pain differently is endorphins. I have a high tolerance to pain and when I experience extreme pain, I am somewhat wiped out afterward much like I have been drugged. It almost feels like my body over produces endorphins for the amount of pain I feel. My theory is that at times of extreme pain my body produces more endorphins that are required to control the amount of pain I feel. The down side of this is when the supply of endorphins is exhausted, I feel the longer lasting low grade pain afterward.
You can train your mind to override whatever pain and discomfort your body is feeling. It's sort of like you become able to compartmentalize it and put it away until later. You can drive on through quite a bit of pain this way, even the kind that is causing physical damage.
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I spent a good part of my past life doing a couple of trades and learned how to deal with pain, but nothing prepared me for the pain of electrolysis. It hurts everywhere, and it hurts even worse in certain areas such as upper lip, lower lip and anywhere along the lip line. And things only got worse after I started HRT.
I use a lidocaine mix I found on here and asked my Dr to give me a prescription for, as well as percs precscribed for the super painful areas, and advil (4) for everywhere else.
Hi, Brandi
So, you find it harder to deal with pain from electrolysis than other types of pain? Is it just that it's not limited to one spot and the level varies, or is there anything else about it that you think makes it more difficult for you?
Deborah—yes, overriding does seem to be a good word. It's hard to describe—although the pain is fully there it somehow becomes significant only in that I must recognize, accept and contain it...
Dena, do you mean you think some people are able to release endorphins at will, or that some people just naturally release more than others do? Either way, have you any thoughts on why that might be?
Under pain you automatically release it. It's natures way of controlling pain and many drugs like morphine and heroin have a similar molecular structure and work by using the same receptors that endorphins use. The numbers I last heard said that endorphins were several hundred time more potent but they are produced in very small quantities and last a short time in the body.
Possibly some people release more of it than others but I don't know.
Quote from: zirconia on May 19, 2018, 08:27:48 PM
Hi, Brandi
So, you find it harder to deal with pain from electrolysis than other types of pain? Is it just that it's not limited to one spot and the level varies, or is there anything else about it that you think makes it more difficult for you?
The pain is incredible which makes it more difficult than say, a cut finger or scratch. I used to handle hot metal every day and the pain was nothing compared to electrolysis.
One time I had a skiing accident and broke my left leg. I had to drive home in my stick shift car. Each time I had to use the clutch with my broken leg it was excruciating but manageable. The continued piercing and zapping for two hours without lidocaine injections was not manageable. The pain levels with electrolysis is lower than stepping on the clutch with the broken leg but they are repeated hundreds of times an hour. Half an hour or a full hour I could take, two hours was more than I could marshal my mind to endure.
Quote from: zirconia on May 09, 2018, 07:00:52 PM
Hi, everyone
I've been a bit puzzled about the subject of pain every time it comes up, and just now finally realized I could simply ask...
So—when I undergo electrolysis (or other procedures that hurt) what mostly happens is that as long as I move the pain into the "warning" (vs. "danger" or "damage") category and keep relaxed it remains pretty unimportant, and the primary annoyance becomes an occasional twitch that feels as if a misconnected nerve were trying to move an unrelated muscle.
I'm pretty sure everyone does something similar—but from reading other people's accounts it seems clear that to many if not most the pain is too great to redefine. I guess that what I'd like to know is where everyone else normally draws the line between the different pain types, and up to what degree you can temporarily move the category boundaries.
I have had 13 or so surgeries on my face over the years due to needing a correction to a physical deformity. This has left me with a highly sensitive facial skin which was not happy when I started Electrolysis. It hurt bad enough to have me arching my back off the table...in the end I had facial injections and dental blocks to get through the first 2 clearances which in combination with laser took about a year.
I tried various techniques including several self hypnosis sessions all to no avail..
I also have an implanted medication device that delivers narcotic pain relief 24/7 however this made no difference when it came to zapping my face...as the currents came down I was able to use Emla cream which worked for about 15min per application so I would put 4 seperate lots on and the Electrologist would uncover each one after about 15 minutes so thereby covering me for the hour..
Dental blocks was the only way I could manage the top lip...
I tried all sorts of things but in the end it was more about how much I could tolerate than any kind of medical intervention apart from the injections....the facial injection were effective in
most but not all areas.
take care
Liz
Pain and response to it and perceptions of pain are interesting. I had an extremely traumatic series of events as a teen and part of my recovery was being taught how to compartmentalise and to isolate reactions (and emotions). Deborah may have had similar but more modern training in her military career.
When I went through my cancer treatments my medics were surprised to see that I did not want, need or use anaesthetics or pain killers for a number of procedures that many patients did require them for. I have my speech valves, plastic tubes pushed through my throat to my trachea, without any anaesthesia, other patients need at least a local and many a general anaesthesia. I had my PEG tube removed without any painkillers even though I was lifted off the table by the guy trying to pull it out!
However short sharp pain is very difficult to control and chronic pain is virtually impossible to control with such techniques. You have to prepare yourself, meditate and go. I didn't require electrolysis so I cannot comment on that (I was cleared with laser).
Meditation on isolation of self is a very useful technique to have and to practice.
I reached my limit after 2 hours, I just end up shaking more an more until I have to stop. I can go a lot longer with lorazepam (a benzodiazepine) and more painkillers.
Thank you. I'm very happy to hear your experiences and opinions... This is all so very interesting.
Anne, the feature of repetitiveness is one thing I hadn't thought of. Does the knowledge that the pain will continue to reoccur for a given length affect of time have any effect? Or does it just constantly get worse until you can't stand it any longer?
Elizabeth, first I'm sorry you needed corrective surgery—and thirteen times at that. I've been trying to imagine how it must have made you feel, but find it hard. I'm glad you were able to find a way through.
Cindy—yes I do find the subject extremely fascinating. I also find it interesting that you were actually taught to compartmentalize the reactions and emotions. It sounds like the pain caused by the events you mentioned wasn't purely physical. If I'm right, I'm sorry to hear that. Yes, I do see how the ability would also carry over to the physical realm. It takes much strength and courage to do what you have done.
As you say, anticipating the pain does also seem significant.
After starting this thread I realized my electrologist might also be willing to comment on the subject. While I'm done with all truly essential work I still see her now and then to take care of areas I can't reach myself, and we usually chat when that doesn't hinder her (and I'm not too sleepy). When I asked her, she was happy to oblige. However what she said also confused me.
To sum up, while individual responses naturally vary, in her experience there is one very consistent pattern. Given the same location and hair density, in her clientele the males generally have an overwhelmingly lower pain threshold than females.
It stands to reason that finer and less dense hair hurts less to remove, so if the observation were general I'd find it natural. However, to make the comparison more meaningful she discussed clients undergoing work on the armpit, mons pubis and anal regions—where she says the hair quality and density is often similar enough to be comparable. In her experience, while girls mostly just bear it, she frequently has to ask the boys whether they'd like to to cut the session short because the pain makes it impossible for them to stay still enough for her to work efficiently.
The reason I found this puzzling has to do with what I've read here about the effects of hormone replacement treatment on pain perception. Since it changes our bodies—obviously including the skin—to more closely resemble those of natal females, it would seem logical that our sense of and reactions to pain would also change in the same direction. However, many posters mention that the pain from electrolysis has actually become worse after starting HRT. To me this feels like a conundrum.
Does anyone have any ideas regarding why HRT, while working its overall feminizing magic, would (at least in some cases) seem to have a seemingly adverse effect in this regard?
Quote from: zirconia on May 26, 2018, 11:32:58 AM
Does anyone have any ideas regarding why HRT, while working its overall feminizing magic, would (at least in some cases) seem to have a seemingly adverse effect in this regard?
Primitive man was a hunter and hunting with rocks and spears was a dangerous profession. A male needed to take a few bumps, bruises and other injuries in order to continue pursuing the game. If a hunter gave up at the first bump, everybody would starve.
Woman tended to gather and as such didn't need to deal with that type of pain. On the other hand, child birth isn't exactly a painless past time so possible they have a different way of dealing with pain. In addition, if a woman gets the flu, often they continue to care for their family even though they are sick. Often the flu will put a man in bed. It might be switching for a T based pain control system requires that we learn an E based pain control system.
Dena,
If I understood your post correctly, you suggest that—since men are naturally less sensitive to pain than women—when HRT changes our endocrine balance we begin to feel it more acutely. At the same time, women can handle greater (e.g. childbirth) and longer lasting pain because they have a different way to control it. The decrease in pain resistance many feel after starting HRT could therefore be overcome by learning the female way to control pain.
In a way that does sound logical. I certainly am in a somewhat unusual state when I expect pain, and while I think I'm alert, my responses might possibly be slower.
What kind of doesn't fit is that I have also had a few acute accidents while on HRT that are usually considered rather painful (e.g. finger ligaments injured and the fingernail half torn off) but seemed to be able to dismiss them and continue work just like I would have before. Then again, if I have somehow acquired a new method of pain control, I may now be applying it to all situations and kinds of pain. I just don't seem to know how and when I might have done so.
If, as you suggest, there is a female way to control pain and it is learnable, have you any thoughts regarding how natal females and those of us that switch hormones do learn it?
If there is a special way of controlling pain, I am not sure if I know it. Feb 24 I fell on my left side doing a really good job of spraining my left arm cushioning the fall. It hurt for a good two months but I never used any pain killer. I limited my use of it and was probably producing endorphins like they were going out of style but I was able to tolerate the pain. Could it have something to do with a woman's ability to be in subservient as they have been through much of history and still be able to make their mark? I don't know and I am guessing again.
I don't think that men are less sensitive to pain than women. Rather they simply learn at an early age to "suck it up". Not as many girls learn this because it's culturally acceptable for them not to "suck it up" and because they don't participate in the types of contact sports that cause a lot of pain like boys do. So many never have to learn how to deal with it.
My credentials in saying this are from raising a daughter. She did learn to "suck it up" and now as a fitness instructor makes other women cry, LOL.
When both her and my son were young and they got hurt and started crying I always asked them the same thing. "Is there blood or is there bones sticking out?" If not then I told them there was nothing wrong and to stop crying. It might sound kind of cruel but it worked and it always reassured them that there wasn't anything to worry about.
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Dena,
I've thought about this for a couple days, and really can't seem to see how subservience and pain tolerance could be related. I hope you don't think this rude, but to be honest, from what I've seen that very subservience can also be relative.
To give an example, while people in the West see the culture I live in as very male dominated, the women here very commonly control all family finances and just assign the husbands an allowance within whose bounds they are free to play. I think I've in another post also mentioned the tips mothers in law here may give brides to be. I think that women may just tend to have an overlapping but separate society.
Deborah,
Your description actually in a way reminds me a bit of my own upbringing. (^_^)
My parents didn't fuss much over anything that wasn't life-threatening. When little, I remember that when I tried a bit too hard to take my knife from my sister during a knife dance and she cut me, they just closed the wound and told us to be more careful. The attitude may be contagious—I myself felt more upset by the fact that the cut would leave a scar than scared or in pain. I'm sure part of pain tolerance is psychological.
That said, I must say I remain intrigued by why natal men would tend be more sensitive to the needle than natal women, despite being likely to have more experience dealing with painful injuries during day to day activities.
I'd really love to hear more people's thoughts and theories.
Quote from: zirconia on June 01, 2018, 01:16:46 PM
Dena,
I've thought about this for a couple days, and really can't seem to see how subservience and pain tolerance could be related. I hope you don't think this rude, but to be honest, from what I've seen that very subservience can also be relative.
To give an example, while people in the West see the culture I live in as very male dominated, the women here very commonly control all family finances and just assign the husbands an allowance within whose bounds they are free to play. I think I've in another post also mentioned the tips mothers in law here may give brides to be. I think that women may just tend to have an overlapping but separate society.
I don't know if the thought is true but there is an additional data point to consider. Young men sometimes do dumb painful things to prove their masculinity. Sometimes holding a burning match until it goes out, sometimes running around in freezing weather without a shirt and not complaining about the pain. Women as I said before, may carry on their normal duties even though they are sick while a man may be confined to bed. People sometime suppress pain because it's expected of them or they view of their social role doesn't allow it. In war prison camps men often endure extreme pain without cracking because their military honor code doesn't allow it. They often try not to show their captures the pain they are experiencing. A case of mind over pain?
Quote from: zirconia on June 01, 2018, 01:16:46 PM
Dena,
I've thought about this for a couple days, and really can't seem to see how subservience and pain tolerance could be related. I hope you don't think this rude, but to be honest, from what I've seen that very subservience can also be relative.
To give an example, while people in the West see the culture I live in as very male dominated, the women here very commonly control all family finances and just assign the husbands an allowance within whose bounds they are free to play. I think I've in another post also mentioned the tips mothers in law here may give brides to be. I think that women may just tend to have an overlapping but separate society.
Deborah,
Your description actually in a way reminds me a bit of my own upbringing. (^_^)
My parents didn't fuss much over anything that wasn't life-threatening. When little, I remember that when I tried a bit too hard to take my knife from my sister during a knife dance and she cut me, they just closed the wound and told us to be more careful. The attitude may be contagious—I myself felt more upset by the fact that the cut would leave a scar than scared or in pain. I'm sure part of pain tolerance is psychological.
That said, I must say I remain intrigued by why natal men would tend be more sensitive to the needle than natal women, despite being likely to have more experience dealing with painful injuries during day to day activities.
I'd really love to hear more people's thoughts and theories.
Hello Zirconia,
My career was as a nurse anesthetist, CRNA, and pain relief was my daily mission. Some men may react to pain more significantly because of a more pronounced vaso-vagal response. Lining guys up in the army for injections could find several of our most heroic types fainting after vagus stimulation caused a very slow heart rate.
Pain is a chemically mediated response to bodily threat or damage from any source, real or perceived. Prior experiences with pain are a greater predictor of response than gender in my experience. Our use of alcohol and other drugs can influences our responses to anesthetics. Emotional pain like heartbreak has a far greater capacity to be recalled while physical pain is much harder to recall or describe and this may be seen as a protective brain
feature. We frequently resort to "pain scales" in clinical use with faces or numbers with zero being pain free to 10 being the worst pain ever.
In my last decade of practice i specialized in obstetrical anesthesia and learned a great deal about how much pain a woman can endure. While medicated births are now very common, some women still prefer natural childbirth or our anesthetic technique can fail. I will never underestimate what a woman can do after countless experiences with women who labored for days with minimal to no food or water and then ended up with forceps deliveries or perineal lacerations.
All pain ends....eventually ;)
Quote from: zirconia on June 01, 2018, 01:16:46 PM
> My parents didn't fuss much over anything that wasn't life-threatening. When little, I remember that when I tried a bit too hard to take my knife from my sister during a knife dance and she cut me, they just closed the wound and told us to be more careful. The attitude may be contagious—I myself felt more upset by the fact that the cut would leave a scar than scared or in pain. I'm sure part of pain tolerance is psychological.
I was raised in the US. My mother is from Japan. My father is from California but embraced Japanese culture and let my mom run the household, including finances. At age 3 I apparently became curious about electrical outlets (110 volts in the US) and walked up to one with a fork in my hand. My parents saw this and said "No!" and I ignored them - so my dad said well, here's one way to learn about electricity. My dad was a radar engineer in the Navy and knew darn well what electricity can do. I stuck the metal in the socket, sparks flew and I obviously received quite a jolt and was frightened - and then I ran around the house declaring "denki hot!" Denki is electricity in Japanese. Little did they know this would prepare me for electrolysis a half century later.
@Kendra
You must be my daughter, LOL. She's half Asian too and did exactly the same thing when she was three. A lightning bolt shot out of the wall and left a scorch mark. She was scared but unhurt. I never had to tell her again not to stick things in the wall socket though.
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I have been dealing with my pain management clinic for 18 years and the same Dr for the last 16. When I told him I was transitioning he was fully supportive and sent me off to the pain management shrink to try and get me to drop the idea that I could get rid of my implanted medication pump. He was the first one to officially "diagnose" the GD.
He was fine with me wanting to adjust my dosages and get them down as low as I could with a view to having it removed however one of the things he cautioned me about is that in his experience treating pain conditions he has noted that the few MTF he has dealt with, he found the majority experienced increase pain response after being on Oestrogen and asked me to wait 6 months reassess.
In short I did have an increase in my perception of my pain even if just slightly. I have to say for me it was certainly true and I have noticed this increase in my pain scores since starting HRT. My Dr was adamant that this increase is a direct result of the HRT. I don't know for sure but it is a bit co-incidental.
Quote from: zirconia on May 26, 2018, 11:32:58 AM
....Elizabeth, first I'm sorry you needed corrective surgery—and thirteen times at that. I've been trying to imagine how it must have made you feel, but find it hard. I'm glad you were able to find a way through....
Zirconia it was a traumatic time for me with the majority of the ops being completed before I was 8 and the final one at age 40. The reason for the numerous ops was because as I grew, ops needed to be performed to allow for this growth. I was very, very lucky and got a leading plastic surgeon who performed my first surgeries. The result I got was astounding for the 1960's...he did an amazing job especially in light of how very little he had to work with. I was born with no roof in my mouth and my nostrils connected directly to the corners of my mouth with no top lip and an open cavity left between my mouth and nose along with one where my top lip should have been.
If you were to see me in real life you may notice that I have a slight scar under my nose and a thin top lip. Apart from having slightly a big nose than average there is no other sign of the original deformity. My surgeon was a genius as I have seen others with similar conditions that have far more scarring with obvious deformities despite the advancement in equipment and techniques.
Take care
Liz
Kendra, Deborah,
I did that when I was eight, with a piece of wire... We had guests, and all the lights went out. It was rather scary but also somehow exhilarating. I probably don't need to say it, but I also never repeated that trick...
Elizabeth,
Yes—that must have been extremely traumatic. I'm glad you had a good doctor. My grandfather had a milder form but it was never completely corrected. Since his palate remained open his speech was hard to understand until you got used to it, and when I was three or four I'd turn to look at my parents, hoping that they'd say something that would help me do so. Now I always feel bad thinking of how it must have made him feel.